Introductory questions to LionChief+ and DCS, etc.

As of right now, there are conversion kits to make it DCS proto 2.0 or Proto 3.0/ Proto 3/2, TMCC but no Lion Chief and I think we will not see it at all. It will work on any track manufacturer as long as you have 18 volts of power or run it off of Lionel Bricks via Powerhouses.

Oh and you can run a legacy or TMCC loco off of a DCS system if and only if you you connect the bricks to run through the dcs system via Powerhouses made by Lionel for the Bricks.

(cracks knuckles)

• It looks to me that in O that there is no universal remote and each of the systems are proprietary, meaning that DCS only works with MTH locos, LionChief+ with Lionel, etc., correct?

That's correct. These systems were developed by competing companies for their own product, rather than a standard imposed on them by a third party (i.e. the NMRA)

• So therefore, I will have to get a control system from MTH, Lionel, Bachmann (aka lots of $$$$) so that I run locos from each company?

At the moment, it means two systems: Legacy/TMCC and DCS. You can operate a TMCC control box thru DCS as the codes for TMCC were made public. The additional codes under Legacy were not. Having Legacy locomotives means you would need a Legacy setup to reach all the features of Legacy units. Bachmann's system hasn't been added to their O-Gauge line.

• Or am I pigeonholed into buying locos from one manufacturer only and stick with them until eternity? I hope not.

Only if you want to. There are some here who do that. I'm sure you'll hear from them eventually  

• Can my older locos be made remote compatible by simply adding a decoder chip?

Yes. The cheapest method right now is to add a TMCC board from Electric RR Co. (about $70). Adding sound requires a secondary board ($85). A DCS upgrade board is available, but is considerably more expensive, and requires the locomotive in question to have flywheel motors.

• Do LionChief+ locos work on tracks other than FasTrack?

LionChief is just radio control using track power instead of batteries, so it doesn't care who's track it's running on, or any other command systems hooked to that track. 

Your proposed M-7 upgrade is a little more problematic. Lionel apparently designed the M7 as a dead-end product: without swapping parts around, you can only run it as the base set plus two-car add-on (and it's not clear they anticipated any six-car operation when they designed the power car since the LionChief set only has three cars). You will have to make substantial modifications to one of your power cars' chassis in order to run both of them in the same train.

---PCJ

Thanks for information.

I noticed that I forgot to ask if the Bachmann P42 Genesis True Blast, etc would work with either DCS or TMCC, but it looks like it was answered.  Yes, but with expensive upgrades.  Might just have to go with the MTH RTR P42 and have someone repaint it for me.

Tim - You mentioned Lionel Bricks.  What is the "brick"?  And is it required to be a Lionel Brick because its a Lionel loco being connected to the MTH DCS system?

PCJ - So based off your notes about the M-7, any ideas that I have of running a 10-car consist (Powered Cab running forward, 2 RTR set Coaches, 4 Add-On Coaches, 2 RTR set Coaches, Powered Cab running in reverse) will just be folly, and just live with the 6-car set?  If that's the case, then the 6-car set it is, and I'll direct those funds towards purchasinh a non-overpriced LIRR M7 set + 2 Add-ons, whenever one becomes available.

Kevin,

Your Williams by Bachmann engine is 100% conventional or no command control abilities from the factory. It can be upgraded to command control by installing a system you buy. My opinion is that you can buy an MTH PS-2 or PS-3 engine with DCS built-in for less then what it will cost currently to upgrade a Williams engine.

I have the TIU for DCS system and you can use track voltage setting to run the Williams in conventional mode.

There are operating cars made by both Williams(before Bachmann) and Williams by Bachmann that need a separate remote control sold by Williams by Bachmann. The Williams operating cars won't work with any command control system unless upgraded to command control. 

In the over all picture most command systems in O gauge need their own companies remote control.

The term brick usually refers to an AC power supply minus a throttle control.

Lee Fritz

Amfleet25124 posted:

Thanks for information.

 

PCJ - So based off your notes about the M-7, any ideas that I have of running a 10-car consist (Powered Cab running forward, 2 RTR set Coaches, 4 Add-On Coaches, 2 RTR set Coaches, Powered Cab running in reverse) will just be folly, and just live with the 6-car set?  If that's the case, then the 6-car set it is, and I'll direct those funds towards purchasinh a non-overpriced LIRR M7 set + 2 Add-ons, whenever one becomes available.

Not "folly". But you will have to do a bit of parts swapping and/or surgery. Compare your power car with the rear non-powered car, and think about what you'd have to change to have that rear car mid-train, as well as hitch another power car to it. I have the Metro-North set and add-on, and have puzzled over how to do this. It'll be a fair amount of work.

Personally, I thought about scratchbuilding all new pilots with slots for swinging magnetic MU couplers for each married pair. Using the LionChief set to expand the four-car sets raises the problem of having an odd number of cars, which won't look right since the M7 runs as married pairs.

Getting a second four-car set would mitigate that issue, but the existing ones are not too easy to find at a reasonable price, and it looks like any future releases will be three-car sets, unless Lionel re-engineers the power car to have twin motors, which I don't see as likely given the set overall looks like it was just hacked together to satisfy some stipulation in the MTA license (which in itself was probably only pursued to disrupt MTH's success with subways).

---PCJ

Lee, 

So the Bachmann P42 is out of the picture and I'll just have the MTH P42 repainted. Thanks for the explanation of "brick".

PCJ, not to turn this into a M7 conversation per se, but just a point of clarification. For my 10-car consist, the 2 non-powered rear cars were not included and are totally out of the picture.  I would use them only for static display and 4- and 6-car consists. The aim is to have the powered cabs at each end  (one running in reverse) of the 10-car train and using the two 2-car add-ons in the middle of the train as cars 4 thru 7.

• It looks to me that in O that there is no universal remote and each of the systems are proprietary, meaning that DCS only works with MTH locos, LionChief+ with Lionel, etc., correct?

This is pretty well correct, but is not especially problematic for most folks.  Generally people will choose one system to start with, based on what engines they own already, or plan to own in the future.  Then at some point will add the competing system.   Following is just a brief bit of information on the systems, since it seems you are a bit confused here, and it sounds like you might not have  a good grasp on the different systems offered by Lionel.  

Conventional - (Runs all engines of all manufactures(Special note on LionChief))

Two wires and a transformer, your basic set up with a transformer throttle, whistle, and maybe a bell.  This control system will run all brands and products that I am aware of in O-gauge, with one "sort-of" exception in the LionChief line of products. See the LionChief description below.  

Lionel, TMCC - (Runs TMCC equipped engines, Also runs limited features of Legacy engines, Can control conventional with additional hardware.)

TrainMaster Command Control is the first system for advanced multi-function control, released in the mid 90's by Lionel.  The system is still in wide use today, and engines that operate on this system are still produced by other manufacturers, as well as being an openly licensed system in the past.  You'll find K-line, Atlas, Etc all with TMCC operation.  In addition the ERR sells boards that allow you to upgrade most any conventional engine to TMCC.  The TMCC system will only run TMCC equipped engines right out of the box(As well as a limited feature set on Legacy engines), but the product line offers additional items that will allow you to operate conventional engines from the remote.  Other additional add-ons will allow control of switches, accessories un-coupling tracks, and the like from the remote.  TMCC will also allow basic control of Legacy locomotives, limited to only the features that exist in the original TMCC.  

Lionel, Legacy -  (Runs all Legacy and TMCC products, Can run conventional with additional hardware.)

Legacy is Lionel's second generation of command control. Released in about 2006, Legacy is 100% (as far as I know) backwards compatible with TMCC, meaning it will operate any TMCC equipped device or engine.  In addition the new system provides a number of more advanced features, and a remote that allows better control and stores more information.  Legacy equipped locomotives have a larger set of features than their TMCC counterparts, and typically out-perform TMCC in every way.  At this time there is no offering for a Legacy upgrade kit on the market, and given the particulars of the system that give it the added benefits, it is unlikely we will see such a kit.  

Lionel, LionChief/LionChief Plus - (Runs along side any other system, but can only be controlled by their own matched remote. [Or conventional on LC+])

LionChief and LionChief Plus, hereafter referred to as LC and LC+, almost deserve two separate descriptions.  LC was released as an entry level product in 2013 followed in 2014 by LC+ which addressed one major issue many had with the original as well as adding a host of additional features.  LC/LC+ engines can be run on the same track as any other engine or while any other control system is in place, but they can only be controlled remotely from their matched remotes.  original LionChief can ONLY be controlled from it's remote, where as LC+ can be switched to conventional mode, allowing it to operate like any other conventional engine.  Both Lc and LC+ use the same style of wireless remote, with one remote used for each type of engine (If you have two of the same engine, even with different road names, a single remote will control both of them. Good for double heading, bad for running separate trains.) The remotes allow forward/reverse speed control, whistle/horn, bell, and crew announcements control. In addition, LC+ uses a quick double press of the horn/bell buttons to fire front or rear electrocouplers.  LC+ also offers steady speed cruise control and better sounds that LC.  At this time Lionel has promised a remote that will run up to 3 LC/+ engines, but it has not yet been released.  

MTH, DCS - (Runs DCS and conventional out of the box,  Can be connected to a TMCC/Legacy system for basic TMCC control)

I believe DSC was introduced around 2001 (I couldn't find the date with a quick search of the net.) by MTH.  When it was released it was billed as a superior system to TMCC, and the answer as to which is better today between Lionel and MTH's system will give you as many answers as people you ask.  Much like Legacy, DCS will only allow it's full set of features to be utilized with DCS locomotives, however it can be used to control conventional engines right out of the box.  In addition, if you already have TMCC you can connect the DCS TIU to the TMCC base with a cable and the DCS remote can then be used to control TMCC functions.  It IS a misconception that DCS can actually control TMCC, it can only talk to a properly functioning TMCC system.  At this time, DSC does not have access to Legacy-only features.  In addition, the latest line of engines equipped with DCS also come with DCC capability for use in 2-rail operation.  

TMCC-Legacy, DCS, and LionChief can all be used at the same time on a layout to operate their engines, and for the most part wont cause each other any problems.  DCS can be finicky but there is a bunch of 3rd party material out there that can guide you through this, as well as abundant information here on the forum.  Tmcc/Legacy can also have signal issues on multi level layouts that can likewise be solved pretty easily.

• So therefore, I will have to get a control system from MTH, Lionel, Bachmann (aka lots of $$$$) so that I run locos from each company?
• Or am I pigeonholed into buying locos from one manufacturer only and stick with them until eternity? I hope not.

Well yes, from Lionel and MTH if you want full control of all the features of all the engines on the market, however most people will chose one to start with.  I am Biased toward one more than the other, but people generally choose based on what brand offers more products they are expecting to purchase in the near future, then add the other system at a later date.  worth noting that LC/LC+ doesn't care what system you are running.  As for it being lots of $$$, yes, each command system costs several hundred dollars, but if you compare that to the costs of the locomotives you are operating, it is only a small fraction of the money you will put into this hobby.  If your budget really is a significant factor, as it is for me, you may want to look into purchasing a used TMCC system to start, then add DCS and/or upgrade to Legacy at a later date if your budget allows. I believe I paid $60 for my used TMCC base and remote.  

• Can my older locos be made remote compatible by simply adding a decoder chip?

Sort of.  If you have an older Lionel engine marked "command ready"  it only needs the R2LC radio board to be added to give it TMCC functionality.  Otherwise you will have to use a full upgrade kit such as those offered by ERR to convert your engine to command control, or the ps2 upgrade to give it DCS control.  

• With my Lionel Metro North M7 set – Santa gave me the 2-car Add-on Pack - I plan on getting another powered cab to put at the other end so that I can eventually run a 10-car consist. I’m nervous about purchasing the LionChief M7 set as the second power unit only to find out that the LionChief+ only works on FasTrack. 

I think others have adequately described the difficulties in making this work, but it can be done.  

Edit:  After reading the post made while I was typing up this too-long essay, it seems If I understand correctly, that you would have to reverse the wired to the motor on one of the engines, assuming they are both Lionchief, so that one will go forward and the other reverse when you turn the throttle on the LC remote.  I'm unsure if it is as simple as that, But I think so.  

• Do LionChief+ locos work on tracks other than FasTrack?

Lionchief/+ locomotives will work on any brand of O-Gauge, 3 rail track, as will the offering from all the other product lines and brands in 3-rail O scale.  The opinions on which track system to choose vary widely from person to person, as well as for what you intend to do with it.  Some brands/types of track work better for temporary, floor/table top style layouts, and others are preferred for permeant layouts.  You can find a lot more on this by searching the forums here for things like "which track should I use"

• You mentioned Lionel Bricks.  What is the "brick"?  And is it required to be a Lionel Brick because its a Lionel loco being connected to the MTH DCS system?

Brick, as used by folks around here usually means a Lionel brand, 180 Watt powerhouse, power supply.  These are the transformer of choice for many folks running command controlled layouts with no need for conventional control.  Unless it is an issue specifically related to 'bricks' versus some other transformer, the term will generally just mean whatever transformer you are using to power your layout.  

Anyway, Hope this was somewhat helpful and didn't put anyone to sleep.  

JGL

Amfleet25124 posted:

Lee, 

So the Bachmann P42 is out of the picture and I'll just have the MTH P42 repainted. Thanks for the explanation of "brick".

PCJ, not to turn this into a M7 conversation per se, but just a point of clarification. For my 10-car consist, the 2 non-powered rear cars were not included and are totally out of the picture.  I would use them only for static display and 4- and 6-car consists. The aim is to have the powered cabs at each end  (one running in reverse) of the 10-car train and using the two 2-car add-ons in the middle of the train as cars 4 thru 7.

Kevin, I can upgrade your Bachman engine to PS-2 or 32 to give you DCS control of the engine.  My e-mail address is in my profile.   G

Hi Kevin, you are definitely getting a lot of good information. How about considering battery wireless controls. Total independent operation, never have to clean the track or deal with complex wiring. Will  run anywhere and continue to use your current locos.  If you are curious contact me offline at www.rcsofne.com. Don

Don Sweet posted:

How about considering battery wireless controls.

 

Really?  That's not exactly putting him in the mainstream.  Somehow it seems a bit unlikely that he wants to start custom building all his locomotives so they can run on batteries.

Thanks for the additional information gentlemen. I'll take everything under advisement when I get around to purchasing the Amtrak Genesis.

Yep really! I understand this discussion should be in another topic area. I wanted Kevin to know he has choices. My customers all have track powered solutions and use a few battery wireless controlled engines to have more fun. Imagine all the functions but totally independent from the rails.

I started in G scale and over the past six years 2R O scalpers started to use the system. Today 3R operators are is using the system.

By the way my father enjoyed shopping at Hennings when he lived in Harleysville.

Have more fun running your trains. Don

Amfleet25124 posted:

PCJ, not to turn this into a M7 conversation per se, but just a point of clarification. For my 10-car consist, the 2 non-powered rear cars were not included and are totally out of the picture.  I would use them only for static display and 4- and 6-car consists. The aim is to have the powered cabs at each end  (one running in reverse) of the 10-car train and using the two 2-car add-ons in the middle of the train as cars 4 thru 7.

I don't think my plans involved excluding any or the set cars. While I don't have my set out to examine, a look at the power car and how it connects to its companion non-powered car will tell you what you need to do, since the proposed second-set will be identical.

---PCJ (better known as 'RailRide')