Is it a Welz or a fake?


I'm trying to evaluate if this Lionel 2332 GG-1 shell was done by Elliot Welz or not.

Some things to consider when looking at the attached photos:

  1. No "Painted By E. Welz" signature stamp on the inside.
  2. Lots of junk in the paint - particularly around the side ladders and across the upper surface (does not show well in the pics but the spots are NOT dust)
  3. No trim was removed prior to paint.  It's not as easy to tell from the pics but the ladders, horns and pantograph seats were all painted over with the silver part of the horns being masked off.  Trim attachment tabs on inside of shell have all been sprayed over black- again indicating they were not removed.
  4. Old heat stamping is visible under the new paint (were original Lionel 2332 shells ever heat-stamped...?)
  5. Stripes and lettering are silk-screened.
  6. Keystones are decals.
  7. No sign of primer.
  8. Seller claims it was done by Elliot Welz 30-35 years ago.
  9. Note attached brochure from Welz (1979 - 38 years ago) where he was clearly removing the trim.
  10. Stripe pattern on the nose is very different from known Welz examples as well as the attached brochure.


I have several Welz pieces and they are far superior to this one.  If this is his work, I'm thinking they must have caught him on a bad day.  Seller is getting angry that I have questioned the authenticity and says I don't know what I'm talking about and that it is a "100% quality" example.

Interested in any comments from people with first-hand knowledge of his work.






Photos (11)
Original Post

That does not match the Welz paint jobs.  I purchased many Williams GG-1 kits back in the day from Trainworld.  I would have E Welz paint them and I would sell them at train shows.  People would be lined up at my table and they sold out in minutes.  That does not match Welz quality.  He also clear coated the G motors.







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revolgnad posted:

His name is on the inside of the engines that I have.

Same here - I have only 1 - an Amtrak 926 GG-1.

His name is clearly stamped inside the shell.

That said - not an expert - the paint job on this is nice - but not without flaw.

And on mine, the vents are painted a bit different than the brochure - so not sure how much you can read into the brochure.

Welz painted a blank Williams GG1 as a 2340 for me and it is perfect IMHO. None of poor quality yours shows and his name is inside the shell.

when I get to my pc I’ll try to post pictures. Don’t know how from my phone

O O o o
O      ____ ____.
Y__._|[]|_/  Bill  |


Member TCA & LCCA & NLOE , OGR 11-23-2001

I find it amusing that two people are arguing about the "authenticity" of whether or not a repainted inexpensive item was repainted by one person or another. There is no added value, IMHO, to having a Welz repaint job over a repaint by anyone else. It's not as though the Welz provenance adds any great value to such a mundane item.

True, Elliot's work was better than 1st class. His painting and detailing were museum quality, if there is such a category in old non-scale GG1 shells.  The one you pictured is simply not one of his. Let the seller be angry. Walk away. A better one will come your way eventually.

Arthur P. Bloom TCA 86-23906 "I love the smell of smoke pellets in the morning!"

 There is no added value, IMHO, to having a Welz repaint job over a repaint by anyone else. It's not as though the Welz provenance adds any great value to such a mundane item.

We will have to disagree on this one. I think there are a fair number of people who would place a premium on a Welz repaint. Not that it would be big dollars.

C.W. Burfle

I have about 20 Welz repaints going back 20 years.  They all have his name stamped inside the shells.  His work has always been top notch.  Eliot would never put out product that was'nt perfect in every way.  GG 1 stripes in particular as that is what started him out in the business.


Paul Edgar

After relooking at it, I myself which at best is a spray can rembrandt I fill and lightly sand with either 800 or higher grit sandpaper before I paint and if it shows thru I redo until it's not seen. My painting doesn't even come close to what most repainters do, But I can beat that job on the filling in anyway. And I consider myself an ameture 



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