JULY 15th, 2021 - LIONEL PURCHASE OF MTH TOOLING ... PLEASE READ!

I wanted to give some additional info on this announcement.  Lionel requested that this announcement be made on our forum at a time they set.  There was an earlier version of this placed on the forum by one of our highly respected forum members but it was taken down so that we complied with Lionel's request.  This will be featured in all of the categories so please do not start additional threads on this topic.  We will leave this thread open for your comments.

Thanks!

Alan

Very exciting news for everyone! A real game changer for the hobby!

😮😮 can’t wait to get more info

Yes, good news for all.  It means Lionel's product line is strengthened and the residual MTH bottom line is strengthened as well.  Lionel fans get additional variety. Those who are strictly MTH fans get to see continued DCS and PS3 production in all likelihood.

While it's exciting, hardly a game changer.  They added tooling.  I'm excited to see it but the build up was unnecessary.

@MartyE posted:

While it's exciting, hardly a game changer.  They added tooling.  I'm excited to see it but the build up was unnecessary.

Lionel purchasing a “broad assortment” of tooling from its toughest competitor is very big news. I’m sure we have just seen the beginning of just how important of a step this is. I’m sure not all of the newly purchased MTH tooling will be in tomorrow’s catalog and even more will be available in upcoming catalogs.

@Madockawando posted:

Very exciting news for everyone! A real game changer for the hobby!

Why is it a game changer?  Tooling for stuff MTH has already produced.  The only plus is the tooling will be continue to be used but nothing new.  Does Lionel get access to MTH factories?  That’s the real game changer if so, as Lionel’s current Chinese factory suck.

@SIRT posted:

Those who are strictly MTH motive power fans get to see continued DCS and PS3 production in all likelihood. That would be me. Hope they offer combo door MTH 50' PS-1's too.

On the LCCA web meeting, Lionel said that the MTH locomotives will be equipped with Legacy, not DCS.

Where do I find the 5 PM announcement? Is it on YouTube?

@Madockawando posted:

Lionel purchasing a “broad assortment” of tooling from its toughest competitor is very big news. I’m sure we have just seen the beginning of just how important of a step this is. I’m sure not all of the newly purchased MTH tooling will be in tomorrow’s catalog and even more will be available in upcoming catalogs.

Again not living up to the hype.  It was pretty obvious that Lionel would end up with some tooling.  I'm glad they got some tooling and we'll see new engines with Legacy but again anticlimactic.

@Robprince posted:

Where do I find the 5 PM announcement? Is it on YouTube?

You found it.  It is this thread.  Lionel hasn't posted the YouTube LCCA presentation yet if at all.

I guess it was inevitable. Hopefully they got some of the PRR steam tooling. I would not mind a Legacy I1 Decapod. Their H10 was nice. A Q2 with Legacy would be beastly.

As I noted in the 2021 V2 discussion there really is nothing "revolutionary" about Lionel acquiring some MTH tooling. All that will happen is items that have already been produced will come in a different color box with different electronics inside, nothing more, nothing less. If you are a hobbyist like me who has no brand/control system loyalty and just buys models of the prototypes you like, regardless of manufacture/control system, then it's the same stuff I could buy before. Nothing new to see here.

What would be revolutionary is Lionel ditching TMCC/Legacy/Lionchief and adopting the model railroading standard of DCC, or even creating a new control system. A locomotive with a different board, put inside a different color box, is not that.

If Lionel got a bunch of steam engines and puts whistle steam and Legacy in them, that's nice.  I hope they don't override the individualized sound files of MTH with the uniform voice actor at Lionel.  (He does a nice job but it's a bit depressing that every Lionel engine has the very same voice.)

...Is anyone going to announce what, exactly, Lionel bought from MTH?  If there's a KBayStsB in blue with Legacy and whistle steam (and German sound files), I will be excited.

Until we see some specifics, I'm not sure what the big deal is.  It was predictable that the tooling would eventually land somewhere.

While I've tended to buy more MTH items than Lionel (price, and too deep into DCS), the range of MTH models seems to have stagnated in recent years.  How many more of the same models in different paint schemes can the market absorb?  IMO, what is needed is some new tooling for different models.

@BC1989 posted:

If Lionel got a bunch of steam engines and puts whistle steam and Legacy in them, that's nice.  I hope they don't override the individualized sound files of MTH with the uniform voice actor at Lionel.  (He does a nice job but it's a bit depressing that every Lionel engine has the very same voice.)

...Is anyone going to announce what, exactly, Lionel bought from MTH?  If there's a KBayStsB in blue with Legacy and whistle steam (and German sound files), I will be excited.

Whaaaaa??…..Lionel isn’t going to use the first bit of MTH electronics ……AFAIK, the only announcements were for tooling only,….not electronics,…..Lionel won’t be using the first piece of MTH wire,…why would they when they have their own system!…

Pat

@Lou1985 posted:

As I noted in the 2021 V2 discussion there really is nothing "revolutionary" about Lionel acquiring some MTH tooling. All that will happen is items that have already been produced will come in a different color box with different electronics inside, nothing more, nothing less. If you are a hobbyist like me who has no brand/control system loyalty and just buys models of the prototypes you like, regardless of manufacture/control system, then it's the same stuff I could buy before. Nothing new to see here.

What would be revolutionary is Lionel ditching TMCC/Legacy/Lionchief and adopting the model railroading standard of DCC, or even creating a new control system. A locomotive with a different board, put inside a different color box, is not that.

Lionel announcing it is ditching Legacy and TMCC for DCS, wouldn’t be revolutionary, it would be business suicide. This announcement was big enough that OGR made it know that a significant announcement was coming.

What a ride! 

40 years ago Mike Wolf was portrayed as 'David' in taking on Lionel (Goliath).  Even had "Lionel" within the decoration above the family's fireplace, as I recall. 

Protected his interests in the courtroom.

Made Union Pacific blink on behalf of the entire spectrum of our hobby's manufacturers.

Always kept his station at the helm...to well-deserved retirement.

Today's announcement is the best punctuation Mike Wolf and his MTH team could have ever had to his legacy.   (Oops, pun intended!?)   

Was he a "worthy opponent"?.....Just ask Lionel. 

KD

@Madockawando posted:

Lionel announcing it is ditching Legacy and TMCC for DCS, wouldn’t be revolutionary, it would be business suicide. This announcement was big enough that OGR made it know that a significant announcement was coming.

Ugh. I said DCC. What everyone else uses: Beginners guide to Command Control and DCC | National Model Railroad Association (nmra.org)

@Lou1985 posted:

Ugh. I said DCC. What everyone else uses: Beginners guide to Command Control and DCC | National Model Railroad Association (nmra.org)

Okay, it still would be a crazy thing for Lionel to do.

Assuming the prices stay the same (doubt that with Lionel)  I would love to see a lot of rail king imperial engines such as sd70ace, es44, a nicer lc+ Berkshire etc.

I certainly hope there will be more to the "rest of the catalog" than was revealed today. Not overwhelmed so far, but not surprised either.

@dkdkrd posted:

What a ride!

40 years ago Mike Wolf was portrayed as 'David' in taking on Lionel (Goliath).  Even had "Lionel" within the decoration above the family's fireplace, as I recall.

Protected his interests in the courtroom.

Made Union Pacific blink on behalf of the entire spectrum of our hobby's manufacturers.

Always kept his station at the helm...to well-deserved retirement.

Today's announcement is the best punctuation Mike Wolf and his MTH team could have ever had to his legacy.   (Oops, pun intended!?)   

Was he a "worthy opponent"?.....Just ask Lionel.

KD

I think you have a good sense of this. This is, as you have said, the punctuation mark, the end of the Lionel vs MTH story. Yes, there is still a company called MTH around for the time being and DCS is supposed to be supported for a while longer but the old days are over.

@Csxcellent posted:

Assuming the prices stay the same (doubt that with Lionel)  I would love to see a lot of rail king imperial engines such as sd70ace, es44, a nicer lc+ Berkshire etc.

If you’ve never experienced sticker shock before, ….you’re fixin to!..

Pat

This is great news. Perhaps we could get some new locos. The GP60/GP60M/GP60B, FP45/F45s, SD7/9, and others are engines I would totally buy. Perhaps Lionel will finally get their old Standard Gauge and O Gauge prewar tinplate tooling back and remake those old classics again. MTH Railking loco models with Legacy would be fantastic. Legacy guys like myself would be able to run big engines on smaller curves.

@Csxcellent posted:

Assuming the prices stay the same (doubt that with Lionel)  I would love to see a lot of rail king imperial engines such as sd70ace, es44, a nicer lc+ Berkshire etc.

I hope we see a lot of former MTH locomotives with Legacy in the coming years.

@harmonyards posted:

If you’ve never experienced sticker shock before, ….you’re fixin to!..

Pat

I am sure you are correct. I am guarding that this catalog or next will have the effects of inflation. However, with Menards now in the game with at least starter engines and atlas upping its game, I don’t think they have a ton of room to go super crazy. However, I am often hopelessly optimistic ( side effect of being an Orioles fan).

@Dylan the Train Man posted:

Perhaps Lionel will finally get their old Standard Gauge and O Gauge prewar tinplate tooling back and remake those old classics again.

As a FYI all the standard gauge/tinplate tooling MTH has was owned by Williams. None of it is old prewar Lionel tooling.

@Csxcellent posted:

I am sure you are correct. I am guarding that this catalog or next will have the effects of inflation. However, with Menards now in the game with at least starter engines and atlas upping its game, I don’t think they have a ton of room to go super crazy. However, I am often hopelessly optimistic ( side effect of being an Orioles fan).

You're in for quite a shock. Wait till tomorrow .

@Lou1985 posted:

You're in for quite a shock. Wait till tomorrow .

Oh, have you already seen the catalog prices? Please share what else is in the catalog!!

@superwarp1 posted:

Why is it a game changer?  Tooling for stuff MTH has already produced.  The only plus is the tooling will be continue to be used but nothing new.  Does Lionel get access to MTH factories?  That’s the real game changer if so, as Lionel’s current Chinese factory suck.

Amen to that Gary,..

Pat

I’m fairly new. I missed the downfall of Marx, k-line, weavers and Williams. When a new company takes over tooling (I am assuming Lionel will be using their manufacturer). Are there usually issues because of manufacturing inconsistencies? Like, if I buy thousands of dollars worth of Strasburg coaches, are there likely to be bugs. Kind of like for the same reasons you don’t buy a car in its first model year.

I for one find this quite exciting. As a TMCC operating person, I have noted many, many MTH locos that I envied. If Lionel plays this right it will cost me a lot of money...

Jan

I will be very interested to see if this includes and 2 rail offerings? Here's Lionel's opportunity to get back into 2 rail without the development costs. Guess we will find out tomorrow.

@HiramO posted:

I for one find this quite exciting. As a TMCC operating person, I have noted many, many MTH locos that I envied. If Lionel plays this right it will cost me a lot of money...

Jan

Same here. I was almost afraid of this happening.

I’m with Jan... as a Legacy/TMCC operator, I’ve admired some MTH offerings, but I don’t have (or want to add) DCS. So it looks like Atlas will carry on DCS and Lionel will expand it’s Legacy offerings.

The O-gauge train hobby market expanded for a while to a marketplace with too many players; now it is shrinking -- more or less to "the last man standing," Lionel. I'm a Lionel loyalist, so this announcement is good news to me and to my extended family. They will inherit my collection of Lionel trains some day (but not too soon, I hope)!

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394

It would be interesting to see the Z-4000 in the catalog tomorrow.

Wow, this is great news, I’m proud of Lionel taking a Leap of Faith with some of the MTH line of products, tooling, and this will sound far fetched, offer Legacy and down the road make one system run both. Let Legacy and DCS work together. That’s just an idea, and I believe some of the electronic wizards at Lionel or MTH could pull this off. This is good to know. Happy Railroading Everyone, now, back to the Menards saga.  

@Mike H Mottler posted:

The O-gauge train hobby market expanded for a while to a marketplace with too many players; now it is shrinking -- more or less to "the last man standing," Lionel. I'm a Lionel loyalist, so this announcement is good news to me and to my extended family. They will inherit my collection of Lionel trains some day (but not too soon, I hope)!

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394

@HiramO posted:

I for one find this quite exciting. As a TMCC operating person, I have noted many, many MTH locos that I envied. If Lionel plays this right it will cost me a lot of money...

Jan

Buying a piece of MTH will be a great investment for Lionel

@Madockawando posted:

Buying a piece of MTH will be a great investment for Lionel

I agree completely. At least now our Lionel control system will be installed in a locomotive that arrives with the correct paint scheme and without pieces lying loose in the box.

But at what price?

Competition is good for business and the hobby is seeing that competition fade.

@Mike H Mottler posted:

The O-gauge train hobby market expanded for a while to a marketplace with too many players; now it is shrinking -- more or less to "the last man standing," Lionel. I'm a Lionel loyalist, so this announcement is good news to me and to my extended family. They will inherit my collection of Lionel trains some day (but not too soon, I hope)!

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394

It has been an interesting evolution. Now there is  a large Lionel and a group of much smaller O gauge companies.

@Craignor posted:

It would be interesting to see the Z-4000 in the catalog tomorrow.

Why the ZWL works fine. There’s no need for Lionel to buy a Z 4000 tooling or electronics.

@Rail Dude posted:

Competition is good for business and the hobby is seeing that competition fade.

Dude,

That 'fade' began almost 20 years ago now.  We're fortunate to see Menard's come in and take a shot a turning it around after too many sources have left, scaled back, or fallen apart.

On the other hand the only real way to get the same level of competition back that we had before the fade began is to recruit more interested hobbyists in order to re-expand the market.  It looks like Lionel is hoping to do so with this purchase, although it may be more a case of trying to stop the continued shrink.

Are we doing everything we can to help make a re-expansion happen?

Mike

@superwarp1 posted:

Does Lionel get access to MTH factories?  That’s the real game changer if so, as Lionel’s current Chinese factory suck.

superwarp,

How do you know it's the factory that sucks?  Quality takes a lot of work.  With the exception of those in Japan from the 50's through the 80's (all largely having a built-in cultural commitment to perfection), most factories only produce junk if their customers agree to accept junk.

There's enough blame here to spread around to all parties in the design-procurement-manufacturing chain.

Mike

@Rail Dude posted:

I agree completely. At least now our Lionel control system will be installed in a locomotive that arrives with the correct paint scheme and without pieces lying loose in the box.

But at what price?

Competition is good for business and the hobby is seeing that competition fade.

Huh? Do you think Lionel would subcontract the locomotives out to MTH? I'm guessing they acquired the Santa Fe Blue Goose tooling, unfortunately their 4-8-4 was painted much more in the Girls Train color pallette then close to actual Blue Goose colors. Superman and Batman are fantasy items yet they refrain from pint tights and yellow or green capes right? In any case it will be an interesting catalog update. Clearly MTH realized selling tooling at some price is worth more then scrapping it.

@Craignor posted:

It would be interesting to see the Z-4000 in the catalog tomorrow.

Craig:

Don't see that happening from Lionel. Maybe from Atlas.

Pat

@BobbyD posted:

Huh? Do you think Lionel would subcontract the locomotives out to MTH? I'm guessing they acquired the Santa Fe Blue Goose tooling, unfortunately their 4-8-4 was painted much more in the Girls Train color pallette then close to actual Blue Goose colors. Superman and Batman are fantasy items yet they refrain from pint tights and yellow or green capes right? In any case it will be an interesting catalog update. Clearly MTH realized selling tooling at some price is worth more then scrapping it.

I have no idea what you just said...

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Dude,

That 'fade' began almost 20 years ago now.  We're fortunate to see Menard's come in and take a shot a turning it around after too many sources have left, scaled back, or fallen apart.

On the other hand the only real way to get the same level of competition back that we had before the fade began is to recruit more interested hobbyists in order to re-expand the market.  It looks like Lionel is hoping to do so with this purchase, although it may be more a case of trying to stop the continued shrink.

Are we doing everything we can to help make a re-expansion happen?

Mike

Mike, I love what Menards is doing and definitely a boost for the hobby.

Are we doing enough? I can only hope so.

It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. I wonder what will happen to the DCS system now. Will they only be for spare parts now and then that new offshoot of the company is going to fade away? Who knows. Like I said I love to see how this is going to turn out.

As a diehard MTH engine fan, this news is not only not welcomed but horrible.  I hate to be Debbie Downer but if these are Railking steam engines that will only be available with Legacy, as they say on Shark Tank, "I'm out".   Without DCS, forget it.  Premier steam engines mostly require curves over 0-42 so Railking has been my go to.  I'll be interested to find out if there are any Railking steamers left for what's left of MTH to make.   If not, I guess it's EBay relics or nothing.  I hope Atlas makes a strong and long run with what they have purchased in order to keep DCS alive with their diesels.  And will MTH continue to make Premier steamers?  Or are those going to be sold off, too?

I'm looking forward to see what Big L does with the MTH tooling.  As was mentioned above, I would like to see DCS and Legacy work together as one system.  In the meantime, I will continue to use my TIUs with the TMCC brick which allows for operation of all my locomotives--MTH, Lionel, and Atlas--with my DCS handhelds.

This is great news.

Maybe now Lionel can finally get around to producing an Amtrak Genesis P42 instead of that nonsense they did a few years ago with the release of an Amtrak RTR set...

But then again (for those in the now, gladly correct me if I'm wrong), didn't Lionel inherit all of the K-Line tooling and instead of producing the K-Line product - some of which was better quality product (trains and operating accessories) than Lionel - just shuttered those items away into history... and high prices on auction sites when they show up.

I'm hoping for some small and medium sized Premier steamers like a PRR 0-4-0 A-5 switcher , a PRR 2-8-0 H-9 and maybe a PRR 2-10-0 Decapod.

@IRON HORSE posted:

As a diehard MTH engine fan, this news is not only not welcomed but horrible.  I hate to be Debbie Downer but if these are Railking steam engines that will only be available with Legacy, as they say on Shark Tank, "I'm out".   Without DCS, forget it.  Premier steam engines mostly require curves over 0-42 so Railking has been my go to.  I'll be interested to find out if there are any Railking steamers left for what's left of MTH to make.   If not, I guess it's EBay relics or nothing.  I hope Atlas makes a strong and long run with what they have purchased in order to keep DCS alive with their diesels.  And will MTH continue to make Premier steamers?  Or are those going to be sold off, too?

If Lionel bought an RK steam locomotive tooling the likely route is they would end up in the Lionchief line, not Legacy.

Overall good news, BUT why couldn't Lionel say what tooling they purchased in their announcement like Atlas -O did??

Yes, I hope we learn exactly what tooling Lionel purchased.

They wanted it to be a surprise in the new catalog.

This was a no-brainer for Lionel, just a matter of making the numbers work for both parties. MTH simply had a tremendous amount of fine-scale tooling for steam and electrics...probably diesels too but am not well-versed in those. The Railking Line of buildings may not be gone, either, another tremendous resource for Lionel

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

superwarp,

How do you know it's the factory that sucks?  Quality takes a lot of work.  With the exception of those in Japan from the 50's through the 80's (all largely having a built-in cultural commitment to perfection), most factories only produce junk if their customers agree to accept junk.

There's enough blame here to spread around to all parties in the design-procurement-manufacturing chain.

Mike

Well, the defects are coming from somewhere.

@Amfleet25124 posted:

But then again (for those in the now, gladly correct me if I'm wrong), didn't Lionel inherit all of the K-Line tooling and instead of producing the K-Line product - some of which was better quality product (trains and operating accessories) than Lionel, just shuttered those items away into history... and high prices on auction sites when they show up.

Some things from K-Line were used.  I think the newer PRR K4s use some of the tooling.  The original Lionel K4s from the late 90s early aughts had a firebox that was too long.  I think maybe the moguls, ten wheelers, or 4-6-4T (can’t remember which) uses a K-Line derived drive train.  

That said, I agree… I would hate to see some of MTH’s great steam (Decapods, Q2, L-3 Mohawk, WM M-2 Challenger, Erie Triplex, GN Z-6 and R-2 etc.) just go on the shelf and not get used.  Or be so expensive that It’s out of reach.  

@Amfleet25124 posted:

This is great news.

Maybe now Lionel can finally get around to producing an Amtrak Genesis P42 instead of that nonsense they did a few years ago with the release of an Amtrak RTR set...

But then again (for those in the now, gladly correct me if I'm wrong), didn't Lionel inherit all of the K-Line tooling and instead of producing the K-Line product - some of which was better quality product (trains and operating accessories) than Lionel, just shuttered those items away into history... and high prices on auction sites when they show up.

Lionel briefly made a few K-Line 21" passenger cars, Milwaukee RD, Texas Special among others. The USRA Mikado, Pacific, 0-8-0, PRR B6 and A5 maybe the K4 are all K-Line tooling. They also own a lot of the Weaver tooling. Pretty sure their made in the USA cars are ex Weaver plus the 60' head end cars.

Pete

Didn't MTH release a Railking L-3 Mohawk? If so, I would love to see that locomotive as a LionChief 2.0. In fact, there are many Railking steam locomotives I would like to see as a LionChief

@rplst8 posted:

Some things from K-Line were used.  I think the newer PRR K4s use some of the tooling.  The original Lionel K4s from the late 90s early aughts had a firebox that was too long.  I think maybe the moguls, ten wheelers, or 4-6-4T (can’t remember which) uses a K-Line derived drive train.  

That said, I agree… I would hate to see some of MTH’s great steam (Decapods, Q2, L-3 Mohawk, WM M-2 Challenger, Erie Triplex, GN Z-6 and R-2 etc.) just go on the shelf and not get used.  Or be so expensive that It’s out of reach.  

@Norton posted:

Lionel briefly made a few K-Line 21" passenger cars, Milwaukee RD, Texas Special among others. The USRA Mikado, Pacific, 0-8-0, PRR B6 and A5 maybe the K4 are all K-Line tooling. They also own a lot of the Weaver tooling. Pretty sure their made in the USA cars are ex Weaver plus the 60' head end cars.

Pete

On my personal preference list would be for Lionel to produce the 21-inch Bombardier Commuter Coaches that K-Line did that aren't as stubby looking as the 19-inch ones that MTH did, but I digress

@Paul Kallus posted:

...MTH simply had a tremendous amount of fine-scale tooling for steam and electrics...

Electrics! Forgot about those.  PRR DD1, BB1, FF1, FF2, L5, and P5a plus the NH EP-3, EF-3b, EF set, and others!

I’m not sure that I agree with this announcement meaning a reduction in competition. My head has been in a different place the last few months so I’m a little fuzzy on details, but if I remember the bits I’ve gleaned from various threads, there are a number of pieces to this puzzle...

1. I believe MTH said that there would be an “MTH entity” which would handle maintenance and development of DCS (I thought that included the Z4000 - not sure)
2. there was to be another “MTH entity” which would still produce certain MTH engines/rolling stock
3. Atlas purchased some MTH tooling that they will produce - the engines will have DCS
4. and now, Lionel has purchased some MTH tooling that they will produce - the engines will have Legacy/TMCC

So, assuming I am remembering all this correctly, while there won’t be one major competitor (aka MTH), there will be a several pieces which may be greater than the sum of the pieces.

P.S. and I hope Lionel got the tooling for the CP Royal Hudson and the produce one in the short term!!!

Maybe the catalog will have a list of what tooling was purchased from MTH. As much as I like the anticipation and wondering of what will be in the catalog, I would like to know if Lionel even has the tooling for something before we start speculating when they will make the thing. It does no one any good to think "they will catalog L3/L4 Mohawks with Legacy this time around" only to find out years later that they don't have that tooling. Did I just reveal what I want most out of this???

If this news makes anyone happy, I'm glad for them and good luck. Not meaning to rain on anyone's parade, just giving my two cents...

Personally, it means nothing to me.

People looking for USA-made craftsmanship, quality and competition...we have a place for you at our prewar table.

I don't see the excitement...my prewar switchers are all 79 to 82 years old...they can all easily make it for another 79 to 82 years. The new stuff will last how many years and will the new products be supported as far as out-of-warranty repairs? Weren't there topics about this? Lionel Support: Out of Warranty Repairs not being taken at this time | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Tom

@Amfleet25124 posted:

On my personal preference list would be for Lionel to produce the 21-inch Bombardier Commuter Coaches that K-Line did that aren't as stubby looking as the 19-inch ones that MTH did, but I digress

In Tri-Rail colors!!!!

@Harry's Trains posted:

Maybe the catalog will have a list of what tooling was purchased from MTH. As much as I like the anticipation and wondering of what will be in the catalog, I would like to know if Lionel even has the tooling for something before we start speculating when they will make the thing. It does no one any good to think "they will catalog L3/L4 Mohawks with Legacy this time around" only to find out years later that they don't have that tooling. Did I just reveal what I want most out of this???

After this week, Lionel never mentions MTH again.

In the presentation today, they rarely if at all identified what was MTH.

@Paul Kallus posted:

This was a no-brainer for Lionel, just a matter of making the numbers work for both parties. MTH simply had a tremendous amount of fine-scale tooling for steam and electrics...probably diesels too but am not well-versed in those. The Railking Line of buildings may not be gone, either, another tremendous resource for Lionel

Why can I see menards making railking buildings?

@Csxcellent posted:

Why can I see menards making railking buildings?

From the presentation today it looks like Railking buildings are part of Lionel’s purchase of MTH tooling

@Craignor posted:

It would be interesting to see the Z-4000 in the catalog tomorrow.

To what possible purpose and to what end?   

So... does this mean Lionel won?

Actually, I'm not a brand loyalist. In fact, I think it's sad that MTH has been (still being) parted out. Over the decades I had a few of MTH's products, and I thought them good. I also admired the spunk that Mike would exhibit at times. MTH was definitely an interesting company.

However, as my dad would sometimes say when it was time for me to stop the playing and hit the sack: "All good things must come to an end!"

So long MTH.

Andre

@laming posted:

So... does this mean Lionel won?

In one sense, I guess the answer would be yes.  However, Mike leaves at or near the top of his game.

Actually, I'm not a brand loyalist. In fact, I think it's sad that MTH has been (still being) parted out. Over the decades I had a few of MTH's products, and I thought them good. I also admired the spunk that Mike would exhibit at times. MTH was definitely an interesting company.

One thing I wonder though... How many hobby store custom run Pacific's and RS1's can "new" MTH do before the market burns out on them.

Rusty

However, as my dad would sometimes say when it was time for me to stop the playing and hit the sack: "All good things must come to an end!"

So long MTH.

Andre

@Madockawando posted:

From the presentation today it looks like Railking buildings are part of Lionel’s purchase of MTH tooling

I didn’t watch the vid. I’ll see the specifics when the catalog drops.

@L.I.TRAIN posted:

Overall good news, BUT why couldn't Lionel say what tooling they purchased in their announcement like Atlas -O did??

Exactly. What’s the big secret?

So does this mean I'll be finally getting that LionChief Plus 2.0 PRR L1s I've been begging for?

Jon

@Traindiesel posted:

Exactly. What’s the big secret?

Is it possible that MTH still might be using some of the tooling and in doing so would lose sales if Lionel announced all of the tooling bought?  Just a thought.  I'm with you though other than if it's a contractual thing then spill all the beans.  The whole "Big Announcement" thing here was a to do about nothing IMO.

@TheRambles posted:

After this week, Lionel never mentions MTH again.

In the presentation today, they rarely if at all identified what was MTH.

I disagree... they called out each product that was of MTH heritage. They did say that there was a lot of "rework" on their end to Lionel-ize the engines, mainly installing Legacy into them.

@MartyE posted:

Is it possible that MTH still might be using some of the tooling and in doing so would lose sales if Lionel announced all of the tooling bought?  Just a thought.  I'm with you though other than if it's a contractual thing then spill all the beans.  The whole "Big Announcement" thing here was a to do about nothing IMO.

During the LCCA presentation yesterday, Lionel stated that they had an opportunity to purchase any or all of the MTH tooling. Lionel spend sometime assessing the tooling and purchased, as they stated, a broad assortment of tooling. Whatever tooling MTH still have in their possession it is because no one else ( Lionel and Atlas) wanted it, not because MTH wanted to keep it.

Lionel also stated that not all of the tooling they have will be in today’s catalog. Okay he implication being that future catalogs will have other MTH products. This is a big deal.

@Madockawando posted:

During the LCCA presentation yesterday, Lionel stated that they had an opportunity to purchase any or all of the MTH tooling. Lionel spend sometime assessing the tooling and purchased, as they stated, a broad assortment of tooling. Whatever tooling MTH still have in their possession it is because no one else ( Lionel and Atlas) wanted it, not because MTH wanted to keep it.

Lionel also stated that not all of the tooling they have will be in today’s catalog. Okay he implication being that future catalogs will have other MTH products. This is a big deal.

Still not buying it's a big deal.  It's good that the tooling is getting a second life but the whole "Game Changer" for the hobby was wildly overstated.

I'll take the middle road:  it's a game changer to some of us.  Because of economics or just a love of simplicity, many chose an operating system and stuck with it.  That's why I'm still running TMCC 1 after all these years.  LionChief Plus gave me the opportunity to run the kinds of trains I like without investing in a new OS, so I adopted that too.

But that doesn't mean I didn't long for some of the traditionally-sized equipment in the M-T-H catalogs.  I just wasn't going to invest in DCS.

Now I can enjoy that equipment, and run trains my way.

Jon

Hard to get excited for more swinging pilot high-riding diesels with strange paint and mismatched details. I may raise an eyebrow if they get ahold of some decent PRR steam tooling. If they do, I hope they get inspired to encode some better whistle sounds and install proper Kadee mounts.

@MartyE posted:

Still not buying it's a big deal.  It's good that the tooling is getting a second life but the whole "Game Changer" for the hobby was wildly overstated.

All of MTH's tooling was available for sale. MTH's competitors purchased all they wanted leaving MTH with the tooling that no one wanted. No one could have imagined that Lionel and Atlas would own a portion of MTH just a couple of years ago. Now many of us who were interested in MTH's locomotives but hesitated because they did not come with TMMC/or Legacy can now look forward to owning and operating them with a command and control system that we are comfortable with.  Furthermore, we can purchase these former MTH locomotives with the peace of mind knowing  they  are backed by a warranty of a thriving and stable company.  And this process has only begun. It's a big deal.

@MartyE posted:

Is it possible that MTH still might be using some of the tooling and in doing so would lose sales if Lionel announced all of the tooling bought?  Just a thought.  I'm with you though other than if it's a contractual thing then spill all the beans.  The whole "Big Announcement" thing here was a to do about nothing IMO.

You may be exactly right on that Marty. In order to sell stuff like the tooling there could be certain agreements made right off the top. For example, let's say that MTH sold Lionel the Dreyfuss tooling. It could be that MTH may have said you'll get the tooling by December 2021, or maybe next year, or something like that, which would be why we aren't seeing things like that in this catalog(if that is to happen). Who can say for sure, but time may tell.

@KOOLjock1 posted:

I'll take the middle road:  it's a game changer to some of us.  Because of economics or just a love of simplicity, many chose an operating system and stuck with it.  That's why I'm still running TMCC 1 after all these years.  LionChief Plus gave me the opportunity to run the kinds of trains I like without investing in a new OS, so I adopted that too.

But that doesn't mean I didn't long for some of the traditionally-sized equipment in the M-T-H catalogs.  I just wasn't going to invest in DCS.

Now I can enjoy that equipment, and run trains my way.

Jon

Perfectly stated. Partially because this is me.

RE: The many comments up above. Game changer? Small potatoes? Big news or small news? Who cares? The point is that this is significant news for the hobby and I welcome it.

Well again I'm happy to see the tooling get used.  Hopefully there is something more that would interest me like the new Amtrak engines do.  I'm happy for the folks that will benefit from it including Lionel.  While IMO it's still not that big deal I'm glad to see folks excited about it.  It's good for the hobby when folks get excited.  Let's hope Lionel makes the most of their new acquisitions.

Looking at it from Jon's perspective I can see why some folks feel it's a big deal.

@PRRMP54 posted:

In Tri-Rail colors!!!!

From your lips to God's ears.

Beautiful but stubby compared to the 1/48 scale Atlas 85-foot long passenger car

Maybe not a game changer, but a game ender for MTH at least.

@Madockawando posted:

During the LCCA presentation yesterday, Lionel stated that they had an opportunity to purchase any or all of the MTH tooling. Lionel spend sometime assessing the tooling and purchased, as they stated, a broad assortment of tooling. Whatever tooling MTH still have in their possession it is because no one else ( Lionel and Atlas) wanted it, not because MTH wanted to keep it.

Lionel also stated that not all of the tooling they have will be in today’s catalog. Okay he implication being that future catalogs will have other MTH products. This is a big deal.

Let's hope that the MTH subway sets for New York and Chicago were wanted by one of the other manufacturers so that they will live on in production.

@OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

The first release of products leveraging the newly acquired tooling will be seen in the release of Lionel Trains 2021 Signature Two cataloging on July 16^th.

Does anyone know what tooling was sold? I read this entire thread and I checked the Lionel website. I could not find the above catalog.

As some have stated, the news yesterday affects all of us differently.

For some of us, having Lionel purchase MTH tooling is great news.  It shows that Lionel is willing to invest and they seem to have the money to do it.  That is definitely a positive.  MTH had many models of great locomotives (this is evident by all the prototypes that were in the Cabin Fever Auctions).  For Lionel to add Legacy, whistle steam, and Bluetooth to these engines means that many more people and generations will have access to 3-rail (and maybe 2-rail) models that continue to grow the imagination.

Others look at this as an end to MTH, or at least the MTH as we knew it.  Maybe it is, though at the same time the hobby is moving forward.  DCS still lives on, and we can look forward to what it evolves into.

Then there are those few who didn’t see this news as anything more then the same old stuff.  That is there opinion.  If those few don’t buy anything in the future from this news, then that is their choice.  I can only hope that they can find it in themselves to be happy for those who found this news to be great.  

The hobby is not dead.  The scale is not dead.  We are all going to continue enjoying it and running trains.

@Hudson J1e posted:

Does anyone know what tooling was sold? I read this entire thread and I checked the Lionel website. I could not find the above catalog.

What we know and is in the catalog will be the wood passenger cars, these do excite me BTW, Amtrak Genisis, C Liners, MTH buildings, and fire trucks off the top of my head.

I'm sure there is more we will find out about in coming months but that is what I have seen.

As far as the end of MTH, they seem to be doing OK making the special runs.  I think they'll be fine.

Hoping the MTH European steam engine tooling survives to be produced again, next to impossible to find these engines on the second hand market.

Thank you Marty. I assume you mean the 1800's type passenger cars? Dang I wish I would have gotten one more set of those cars as I assume the price will go up but I am very happy I did get the Raritan River RR Version that Public Delivery Track offered.

@Hudson J1e posted:

Thank you Marty. I assume you mean the 1800's type passenger cars? Dang I wish I would have gotten one more set of those cars as I assume the price will go up but I am very happy I did get the Raritan River RR Version that Public Delivery Track offered.

Yep.  And yes the MSRP did go up.  I want to add 2 PRR to my MTH set.  I'm hoping they'll match in some incarnation.

Thanks Marty. You never know you may find a set of NOS (New Old Stock) cars at a train meet or train store. One thing I still don't know in all the MTH selling this or that announcements is what is happening with the MTH separate sale trucks (both 3 rail and 2 rail) and the trucks MTH made to fit existing Weaver cars? Is the current MTH company keeping them or has the tooling for these trucks been sold to anyone?

Really cool picture by the way!

@Amfleet25124 posted:

Let's hope that the MTH subway sets for New York and Chicago were wanted by one of the other manufacturers so that they will live on in production.

Agreed.  I keep searching for more Chicago subways with PS2 or PS3.  If Lionel buys them, that era ends, too.  I know Lionel fans would love this but MTH fans find this to be the end of a truly great run.  I am grateful for my MTH collection and I see the value going up; yet I'm saddened because it makes me feel old, as I look forward to retirement like Mike Wolf.  Now I know how the post war Lionel folks must have felt when MPC became the new normal.

I am flabergastered at the price markup on the 64' woodsided coaches....

MTH MSRP for a single coach was $100.

Lionel MSRP for two coaches is $400. (or $200 per car).

Seriously??? A 100% price increase??? Outrageous in my opinion. Wish the molds had stayed in MTH's hands.

Glad I got my SRC cars during the last MTH run of them.

Revolutionary ?  Game Changer? ........ perhaps not, but it is a notable and positive development for the hobby that Lionel will be able to manufacture and bring to market a line-up of former MTH products that may otherwise have gone by the wayside.   

As for pricing, that is a different issue.

This is definitely not a game changer at all!  I just got off the phone with one of the biggest MTH dealers in the country.  He told me that Lionel purchased the Railking Bantam tooling, some Railking buildings and accessories, and a few other Premier/Railking pieces to compliment their line.  The balance of the stuff remains with MTH and will be made as MTH moving forward.

@Prr7688 posted:

I am flabergastered at the price markup on the 64' woodsided coaches....

MTH MSRP for a single coach was $100.

Lionel MSRP for two coaches is $400. (or $200 per car).

Seriously??? A 100% price increase??? Outrageous in my opinion. Wish the molds had stayed in MTH's hands.

Glad I got my SRC cars during the last MTH run of them.

Charles Ro has them for $287.95

Given this hyperinflationary period, purchasing/retrofitting the tooling and the shipping container issues. +$87.95 doesn't seem that bad.

I guess I don't know what shops were selling them for but nick smiths has a set of 5 of the MTH older paint scheme for $449.99

So thats $90ea if you buy 5 MTH or $143/ea if you buy 2 new Lionel. Really doesn't seem THAT bad under the circumstances.

@MichRR714 posted:

This is definitely not a game changer at all!  I just got off the phone with one of the biggest MTH dealers in the country.  He told me that Lionel purchased the Railking Bantam tooling, some Railking buildings and accessories, and a few other Premier/Railking pieces to compliment their line.  The balance of the stuff remains with MTH and will be made as MTH moving forward.

First clue: “one of the biggest MTH dealers in the country.” I take the first hand account from Lionel about what MTH tooling Lionel purchased. Thank you very much.

@Madockawando posted:

First clue: “one of the biggest MTH dealers in the country.” I take the first hand account from Lionel about what MTH tooling Lionel purchased. Thank you very much.

Do you have a different list you'd like to share?

Also this thread might interest you.

@Madockawando posted:

First clue: “one of the biggest MTH dealers in the country.” I take the first hand account from Lionel about what MTH tooling Lionel purchased. Thank you very much.

Just finished looking through the new Lionel catalog, and yes it reaffirms no game changer. Some cool stuff did move from one catalog to another but not much excitement here.

The only group of people this is "revolutionary" or a "game changer" for is folks that were too stubborn or pennywise and pound foolish to buy these locos when MTH was making them.

Yes, you would have had to buy a DCS system to run them in command mode but they still would have functioned beautifully in conventional mode, which is fully supported by the Legacy Remote and a PowerMaster.

Now with MTH restructured and Lionel in possession of some subset of MTHs back catalog of tooling, you might get a chance to buy a former MTH locomotive with Legacy, IF Lionel bought the tooling and IF they decide to release it (in a road name and paint scheme you want) for a much higher price.

What's the saying that 3rd Rail always uses in their announcements?  OH, I remember!

         "You can sit on the fence, but all you'll have is a sore behind!"

While I don't own a Legacy command base or remote, I do own the original TMCC and several Legacy and TMCC engines.  I also own DCS and several MTH engines.  Having both systems allows me to run any locomotive how I see fit, and best of all - take advantage of the used market.  Much of my collection has been bought second hand.

Personally, I feel markets are best served when there is good competition between at least two big players.  Chevy/Ford/Dodge, Intel/AMD, Canon/Nikon, the list goes on.  This drives innovation and differentiation and everyone wins.

@MichRR714 posted:

Do you have a different list you'd like to share?

Also this thread might interest you.

This clears up EVERYTHING.  Thanks for the heads up Charlie.  My MTH coffee cup overflows again Here's hoping PS3 Railking Steam and Chicago Subways live to see another day...

The only difference I see is that what was once MTH tooling is now Lionel tooling.  Items manufactured with this tooling will contain all Lionel electronics and hardware.  This is no different then K Line tooling or any other tooling sold over the years.

When this is all said and done MTH will be just a memory like K Line and all the others.

I hope Lionel purchased the tin plate tooling as well.

@NYC 428 posted:

When this is all said and done MTH will be just a memory like K Line and all the others.

I hope Lionel purchased the tin plate tooling as well.

Mike retained all of the tinplate as far as I know.. Also since MTH is still in business and making trains with a whole bunch of tooling that they retained it might be a while before they are a memory

@NYC 428 posted:

When this is all said and done MTH will be just a memory like K Line and all the others.

I hope Lionel purchased the tin plate tooling as well.

How does anyone get to this conclusion from the discussion at hand and on this board the last few months?  MTH has been churning out product almost more so now that when they had a catalog.  Several dealers have reinforced that they are here for the foreseeable future.   

Oh, don't get me wrong I have a lot of MTH equipment , DCS as well as Legacy.  If MTH can stay in business in some way, that would be good for competition and the hobby.

But at some point Mike would have to hand over what's left to the people who are trying to keep MTH alive and reverent.  Special runs are OK for now but long term survival will require some new innovative items for sale.

@MichRR714 posted:

Mike retained all of the tinplate as far as I know.. Also since MTH is still in business and making trains with a whole bunch of tooling that they retained it might be a while before they are a memory

A company that calls itself MTH is still in business, but it is a far different and smaller company than it was two years ago. Every latest news release is another announcement of MTH getting smaller.

If there is an analogy here it may be this: Robert E Lee surrender at Appomattox in April 1865 did not mean the immediate end of the Civil War. The war dragged on a few more months before all the remaining Confederate Armies surrendered.  However, everyone who was there at Appomattox knew exactly what Lee's surrender represented and that the war was essentially over. MTH selling a broad selection of it's tooling to Lionel is MTH's Appomattox.

@MartyE posted:

How does anyone get to this conclusion from the discussion at hand and on this board the last few months?  MTH has been churning out product almost more so now that when they had a catalog.  Several dealers have reinforced that they are here for the foreseeable future.   

I'm sure it seems that way if that is what you want to believe but every news release from MTH is about another piece of the company being sold off or closed down.  MTH is on a slow path downward. 

We will know in a year or two.

@Madockawando posted:

If there is an analogy here it may be this: Robert E Lee surrender at Appomattox in April 1865 did not mean the immediate end of the Civil War. The war dragged on a few more months before all the remaining Confederate Armies surrendered.  However, everyone who was there at Appomattox knew exactly what Lee's surrender represented and that the war was essentially over. MTH selling a broad selection of it's tooling to Lionel is MTH's Appomattox.

More analogies to war...  I thought this was supposed to be a "happy day" where everyone get's what they wanted (Legacy MTH engines, continued production of DCS).  Incessantly rubbing peoples noses in it is the tack some people take I suppose.

@Madockawando posted:

I'm sure it seems that way if that is what you want to believe but every news release from MTH is about another piece of the company being sold off or closed down.  MTH is on a slow path downward.

We will know in a year or two.

Apparently you aren't subscribed to their newsletter.  They've probably made 100 announcements since the one announcing Mike's retirement, all about new road names and special runs.  There have been two "downsizing" announcements, the original about the planned retirement and potential sale of the company and then the one about the selling of a subset of tooling to Atlas. 

We'll know what exactly in a year or two?

I, for one, am sorry that I jumped to the wrong conclusion based on the speculation here.  We can guess all we want about MTH's future.  But what is in front of us are new releases and special runs by special MTH dealers and that continues to excite MTH fans.  Plus Atlas O is the new MTH brother in PS 3 that will be here tomorrow and their stuff is awesome.   I am grateful for Mr. Muffins Trains, Pat's trains and and Public Delivery Track who aren't afraid to share direct facts with us regarding MTH news.

@Madockawando posted:

A company that calls itself MTH is still in business, but it is a far different and smaller company than it was two years ago. Every latest news release is another announcement of MTH getting smaller.

If there is an analogy here it may be this: Robert E Lee surrender at Appomattox in April 1865 did not mean the immediate end of the Civil War. The war dragged on a few more months before all the remaining Confederate Armies surrendered.  However, everyone who was there at Appomattox knew exactly what Lee's surrender represented and that the war was essentially over. MTH selling a broad selection of it's tooling to Lionel is MTH's Appomattox.

Do you use scented smoke fluid?  If so I'd like to know what kind.

@MichRR714 posted:

Do you use scented smoke fluid?  If so I'd like to know what kind.

Why yes! It’s called Purple Haze. It may be familiar to you?😁

What an dramatic turn of events.  Next thing you know cats will be living with dogs!  It will be interesting to see what tooling went to Lionel.

@Madockawando posted:

Why yes! It’s called Purple Haze. You may be familiar to you?😁

..and here I was counting on you using JT's newest "Orange Happy Glow"

@GG1 4877 posted:

What an dramatic turn of events.  Next thing you know cats will be living with dogs!  It will be interesting to see what tooling went to Lionel.

Check this thread....

MTH is still in business. | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

I'm still confused how a locomotive, that's already been made, is "revolutionary" because it comes with a different electronics package then it did before. Is it because it comes in a different color box? Does owning a MTH locomotive I installed TMCC into make me a "revolutionary"?

Let's be serious and cut the hyperbole here: Lionel bought some tooling from MTH. They will make the same item that's been made before but with different electronics inside. It's nothing "new". It's been done by people at home, on their workbench, for years. I've done it myself dozens of times. If you expand your horizons to other scales you'll see that people put different brand DCC decoders in any locomotive available and no one bats an eye. Why everyone is freaking out because a FM C-Liner now has Legacy from the factory instead of PS3 is beyond me.

Lionel is the only "full line" manufacture of 3 rail trains with starter sets etc. You know what in other scales (HO) there are a couple manufactures who make starter sets (basically Bachman and Piko) and a whole line of trains and plenty who cater to the hobbyist who is just interested in purchasing a locomotive or cars for their already established layouts (Athearn, BLI, Scaletrains). This whole manufacture worship in 3 rail O is ridiculous. I wish it was more like other scales, where people bought what they like regardless of who the manufacture is.

@Amfleet25124 posted:

From your lips to God's ears.

Beautiful but stubby compared to the 1/48 scale Atlas 85-foot long passenger car

Those K-Line 21" Bombardier cars are massive:

My HO one is an Athearn, the N is a co-workers of unknown make.

It is my understanding that MTH and Lionel struck the agreement a year ago.  Lionel engineering has been working on these products since that time.  In my past corporate experience it was common to delay announcing agreements of this sort for the benefit of the selling party and may have been a condition of the sale.  If Lionel had announced this prior to now then, MTH would have been stuck with devalued inventory as customers may have made the decision to wait for the new stuff instead of buying the old.  As far as remote systems go, I expect DCS to be around for no more than five years as a stand-alone organization.  The volume of business necessary to support a separate organization may not be there in the coming years.  

@Lou1985 posted:

I'm still confused how a locomotive, that's already been made, is "revolutionary" because it comes with a different electronics package then it did before. Is it because it comes in a different color box? Does owning a MTH locomotive I installed TMCC into make me a "revolutionary"?

Let's be serious and cut the hyperbole here: Lionel bought some tooling from MTH. They will make the same item that's been made before but with different electronics inside. It's nothing "new". It's been done by people at home, on their workbench, for years. I've done it myself dozens of times. If you expand your horizons to other scales you'll see that people put different brand DCC decoders in any locomotive available and no one bats an eye. Why everyone is freaking out because a FM C-Liner now has Legacy from the factory instead of PS3 is beyond me.

Lionel is the only "full line" manufacture of 3 rail trains with starter sets etc. You know what in other scales (HO) there are a couple manufactures who make starter sets (basically Bachman and Piko) and a whole line of trains and plenty who cater to the hobbyist who is just interested in purchasing a locomotive or cars for their already established layouts (Athearn, BLI, Scaletrains). This whole manufacture worship in 3 rail O is ridiculous. I wish it was more like other scales, where people bought what they like regardless of who the manufacture is.

I never bought any MTH motive power. I didn’t want to invest in a second remote system.  I had Lionel and was quite satisfied with it.  MTH had some interesting locomotives that would ruin on any size layout and I hope they will be produced with LionChief Plus or Legacy.  I just ordered the Pennsylvania C-Liner from Charles Ro for $499.95.  

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

I guess it was inevitable. Hopefully they got some of the PRR steam tooling. I would not mind a Legacy I1 Decapod. Their H10 was nice. A Q2 with Legacy would be beastly.

I would absolutely LOVE a Decapod from Lionel.  Another brute for the Panhandle?  Yeah, baby! 

George

@IRON HORSE posted:

I am grateful for Mr. Muffins Trains, Pat's trains and and Public Delivery Track who aren't afraid to share direct FACTS with us regarding MTH news.

I got an email from Pat’s which explained everything to me concisely. I am so happy I bought something from Pat’s which put me on their mailing list. The email explained exactly what tooling Lionel got which I am sure everyone here knows by now.

I agree with the guys who said this is interesting news but in my opinion it is not revolutionary or game changing. I am so happy to hear MTH will stay in business. Of course they will be smaller than they were but I would rather have a smaller MTH than none at all. I still miss Weaver.

@RixTrack posted:

I never bought any MTH motive power. I didn’t want to invest in a second remote system.  I had Lionel and was quite satisfied with it.  MTH had some interesting locomotives that would ruin on any size layout and I hope they will be produced with LionChief Plus or Legacy.  I just ordered the Pennsylvania C-Liner from Charles Ro for $499.95.  

You could have bought a MTH locomotive and run it under TMCC control. It's pretty simple really. Remove the MTH electronics, install TMCC/RS from ERR, run under TMCC with full TMCC features. Simple, and done all the time. Before the last 12 months or so it was possible to buy a PS1 MTH locomotive and electronics from ERR for less than half the cost of a brand new Legacy locomotive.

@Lou1985 posted:

You could have bought a MTH locomotive and run it under TMCC control. It's pretty simple really. Remove the MTH electronics, install TMCC/RS from ERR, run under TMCC with full TMCC features. Simple, and done all the time. Before the last 12 months or so it was possible to buy a PS1 MTH locomotive and electronics from ERR for less than half the cost of a brand new Legacy locomotive.

Yeah, but I’m not going to do any of that.  I’m not much of a tinkerer.  I changed out the lighting in 24 passenger cars to John’s led system and that’s as far as I will go.  Everyone has their own path in this hobby.  

@Lou1985 posted:

Lionel is the only "full line" manufacture of 3 rail trains with starter sets etc. You know what in other scales (HO) there are a couple manufactures who make starter sets (basically Bachman and Piko) and a whole line of trains and plenty who cater to the hobbyist who is just interested in purchasing a locomotive or cars for their already established layouts (Athearn, BLI, Scaletrains). This whole manufacture worship in 3 rail O is ridiculous. I wish it was more like other scales, where people bought what they like regardless of who the manufacture is.

I totally agree with this. While I am an MTH fan I do not have any dislike for Lionel or any other company. I didn’t buy my MTH trains based on the color of the box. MTH made trains that we’re to my interest (scale wheels—fixed pilots, etc) and had Lionel done the same I know I would have bought more Lionel. I do have some Lionel which are beautiful trains. No plans on selling them. I just don’t see the rivalry between manufacturers. I would never want anything bad to happen to any train manufacturer. I want them all to be successful and compete with each to build great products for the hobby.

It is similar to the cars I like. I love my Mopars but do not dislike Ford or Chevy.

Life continues to be interesting......you never know how things will go down......and, we move on.

Peter

I don't know if Lionel acquired any of the tools for the MTH Imperial line of Railking engines, but I hope so. If Lionel's going to abandon the LionMaster line, the Imperial line would be a reasonably good substitute.

@breezinup posted:

I don't know if Lionel acquired any of the tools for the MTH Imperial line of Railking engines, but I hope so. If Lionel's going to abandon the LionMaster line, the Imperial line would be a reasonably good substitute.

Why would Lionel discontinue Lionmaster?  They sell everyone they make…every single one of them.

@breezinup posted:

I don't know if Lionel acquired any of the tools for the MTH Imperial line of Railking engines, but I hope so. If Lionel's going to abandon the LionMaster line, the Imperial line would be a reasonably good substitute.

I do hope Lionel grabbed some Imperial line steam locomotives!.

@G3750 posted:

I would absolutely LOVE a Decapod from Lionel.  Another brute for the Panhandle?  Yeah, baby! 

George

I guess we’ll have to wait and see. Who knows what Lionel got at this point. My 3rd Rails are holding up pretty well but it would be nice to give them a break. An MTH-tooled Dec with Legacy would be kinda dreamy with Kadee mounts and some selectable PRR whistles. Maybe MTH in whatever form they will be taking on will want to retain some of their better tools. Seems like they are taking their time selling off their tooling to maximize what they can get for them.

After viewing the catalog it looks like there is no mention of 2R on any of the MTH tooling. I shouldn't be surprised, but I was hopeful.

Oh Well. Plenty of amazing stuff being made in smaller scales.

I'm late to the "announcement" party, as usual. This may be mentioned above, or not.

Rambling: I wonder if Lionel went after the MTH scale Mohawk tooling? If so that would give Lionel tooling for the L2, L3 and L4 Mohawks. The L3a Lionel already did (and needs to do it again - right this time); the L3b and L4 were done by MTH. I have an MTH L3b and L4. Beautiful - but no more so than the Lionel L2a. And the L2b through L2d look very different from the L2a.

Also, an L3a (3001) and an L2d still exist - odd for big NYC steam. Lionel should offer the 3001.

Alas, no L1 Mohawks. Early and interesting. May I suggest those (and the L2d) for the Hybrid method, much as they did the SP GS-1?

So - Lionel could corner the market on Mohawks!

Competition is good for the consumer.  MTH made Lionel raise their game.  Lionel was all but dead and in bankruptcy.  I heard for years that Lionel didn't listen to customers who wanted scale and highly detailed offerings.  Without MTH, Would Lionel have ever changed or maybe even survived?

Now, instead of competition, we and people in the future are going to experience CONFUSION.

Atlas locos will have TMCC, Legacy and DCS electronics.  You won't know by looking at the exterior.  When you go to a future train show, how will you know which is which?

I know its business.  I know Mike doesn't care because he got his money.  But, I sure wish his company would have continued to survive in tact--including DCS--of which many of us have a SIGNIFICANT investment.

I'm still wondering why Atlas is now going to install DCS instead of Legacy?  The answer of course is:  MONEY.  But, I'd still like to know what the real reason is.  I will never know.

I have a dream.  I've had it since I stepped into the O scale world years ago.  One day there would be a UNIVERSAL command system in O scale that would control EVERYTHING.  Because as I wrote earlier, you are going to have to be darn careful what you are buying in the future because you can't be sure what electronics (TMCC/LEGACY/DCS) are going to included in your purchase without testing and/or hopefully the right information on the box, IF there is a box.

As if there wasn't enough confusion already in the O scale world, here is yet another wrinkle.

@John C. posted:

Competition is good for the consumer.  MTH made Lionel raise their game.  Lionel was all but dead and in bankruptcy.  I heard for years that Lionel didn't listen to customers who wanted scale and highly detailed offerings.  Without MTH, Would Lionel have ever changed or maybe even survived?

Now, instead of competition, we and people in the future are going to experience CONFUSION.

Atlas locos will have TMCC, Legacy and DCS electronics.  You won't know by looking at the exterior.  When you go to a future train show, how will you know which is which?

I know its business.  I know Mike doesn't care because he got his money.  But, I sure wish his company would have continued to survive in tact--including DCS--of which many of us have a SIGNIFICANT investment.

I'm still wondering why Atlas is now going to install DCS instead of Legacy?  The answer of course is:  MONEY.  But, I'd still like to know what the real reason is.  I will never know.

I have a dream.  I've had it since I stepped into the O scale world years ago.  One day there would be a UNIVERSAL command system in O scale that would control EVERYTHING.  Because as I wrote earlier, you are going to have to be darn careful what you are buying in the future because you can't be sure what electronics (TMCC/LEGACY/DCS) are going to included in your purchase without testing and/or hopefully the right information on the box, IF there is a box.

As if there wasn't enough confusion already in the O scale world, here is yet another wrinkle.

I completely agree with you on competition. We need it. Scale steam needs someone other than Lionel, 3rd rail isn’t large enough.

But atlas doesn’t have legacy, Lionel has forced them to use the old generic TMCC boards and sounds. So if you were atlas and you acquired tooling that was set up for DCS, wouldn’t you use it and get a collaborative agreement with MTH and who will continue to improve DCS? I believe Atlas did the right thing for the consumer.

@PRRMP54 posted:

Those K-Line 21" Bombardier cars are massive:

My HO one is an Athearn, the N is a co-workers of unknown make.

Keeping my 21" K-line VRE-Sounder and CALTrains cars!

@Lou1985 posted:

You could have bought a MTH locomotive and run it under TMCC control. It's pretty simple really. Remove the MTH electronics, install TMCC/RS from ERR, run under TMCC with full TMCC features. Simple, and done all the time. Before the last 12 months or so it was possible to buy a PS1 MTH locomotive and electronics from ERR for less than half the cost of a brand new Legacy locomotive.

While I agree with the cost effectiveness of refitting a PS1 loco, this isn't a viable solution at the price of a PS2 or PS3 - IMO, it's unreasonable to pay the cost of a fully functional loco and then turn around and yank out the expensive electronics.

I have both systems and I will buy from Lionel, MTH or Atlas if they produce what I want. In this case, I'll be buying a C-Liner in my favorite road name from MTH tooling.

Today I read a post from Scott Mann, that really says a lot about all the complainers here. Mind you, I'm sure most of his complainers are 2 railers, but regardless why so much negativity.

We all knew a year ago that MTH was closing shop or downsizing.

I was delighted that Atlas procured MTH tooling with DCS control. Others were not and declared their disdain.

Now, we have Lionel buying other MTH tooling and of course, they will install Legacy or Lion Chief.

I'm happy to have all these choices.

@John C. posted:

Competition is good for the consumer.  MTH made Lionel raise their game.  Lionel was all but dead and in bankruptcy.  I heard for years that Lionel didn't listen to customers who wanted scale and highly detailed offerings.  Without MTH, Would Lionel have ever changed or maybe even survived?

I agree.  Competition is what keeps markets healthy, and I doubt Lionel would still exist without Mike Wolf in the picture.

Atlas locos will have TMCC, Legacy and DCS electronics.  You won't know by looking at the exterior.  When you go to a future train show, how will you know which is which?

…

I'm still wondering why Atlas is now going to install DCS instead of Legacy?  The answer of course is:  MONEY.  But, I'd still like to know what the real reason is.  I will never know.

Atlas has never had any Legacy electronics to my knowledge, and the reason they went with DCS is because it supports DCC and this will likely simplify their manufacturing since only one type of electronics will be needed.

I have a dream.  I've had it since I stepped into the O scale world years ago.  One day there would be a UNIVERSAL command system in O scale that would control EVERYTHING.

This already exists and it’s called DCC.  Manufacturers and O-gauge consumers are just too stubborn to take advantage of it.  It is the one thing that has frustrated me about my switch to O-scale from HO.

@rplst8 posted:

I agree.  Competition is what keeps markets healthy, and I doubt Lionel would still exist without Mike Wolf in the picture.

Atlas has never had any Legacy electronics to my knowledge, and the reason they went with DCS is because it supports DCC and this will likely simplify their manufacturing since only one type of electronics will be needed.

This already exists and it’s called DCC.  Manufacturers and O-gauge consumers are just too stubborn to take advantage of it.  It is the one thing that has frustrated me about my switch to O-scale from HO.

So true, but was it stubbornness or greed/profits that led to creating the proprietary systems?

@rplst8 posted:

I agree.  Competition is what keeps markets healthy, and I doubt Lionel would still exist without Mike Wolf in the picture.

Atlas has never had any Legacy electronics to my knowledge, and the reason they went with DCS is because it supports DCC and this will likely simplify their manufacturing since only one type of electronics will be needed.

This already exists and it’s called DCC.  Manufacturers and O-gauge consumers are just too stubborn to take advantage of it.  It is the one thing that has frustrated me about my switch to O-scale from HO.

As far as I know, Legacy still has limited its DCC capability.  Lionel may not be advertising it in O but they certainly are in the Legacy equipped American Flyer locomotives.

Rusty

@D500 posted:

I'm late to the "announcement" party, as usual. This may be mentioned above, or not.

Rambling: I wonder if Lionel went after the MTH scale Mohawk tooling? If so that would give Lionel tooling for the L2, L3 and L4 Mohawks. The L3a Lionel already did (and needs to do it again - right this time); the L3b and L4 were done by MTH. I have an MTH L3b and L4. Beautiful - but no more so than the Lionel L2a. And the L2b through L2d look very different from the L2a.

Also, an L3a (3001) and an L2d still exist - odd for big NYC steam. Lionel should offer the 3001.

Alas, no L1 Mohawks. Early and interesting. May I suggest those (and the L2d) for the Hybrid method, much as they did the SP GS-1?

So - Lionel could corner the market on Mohawks!

This would be nice D500,…imagine a page full of Mohawks to pick from,….guess we’ll have to wait & see who got the Premier Mohawk tools,…in the meantime, the recipe for a class L2d Mohawk isn’t that awful to bake,….1 L3a shell, and 1 L2a chassis, mix well, garnish, and serve,…..😉

Pat

@Rusty Traque posted:

As far as I know, Legacy still has limited its DCC capability.  Lionel may not be advertising it in O but they certainly are in the Legacy equipped American Flyer locomotives.

Rusty

Interesting.  That I did not know.  I went back to the 2017 Flyer catalog and it does indeed mention DCC compatibility.  Oddly though, the manual for the Santa Fe PAs in that catalog (6-47998) makes no mention of it!

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...193748162250PAAA.pdf

@Hudson J1e posted:

So true, but was it stubbornness or greed/profits that led to creating the proprietary systems?

I understood Neil Young had TMCC developed to help his kid(s) enjoy running trains. Not motivated by greed nor profits.

Pete

@rplst8 posted:

Interesting.  That I did not know.  I went back to the 2017 Flyer catalog and it does indeed mention DCC compatibility.  Oddly though, the manual for the Santa Fe PAs in that catalog (6-47998) makes no mention of it!

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...193748162250PAAA.pdf

Legacy American Flyer locomotives have had DCC compatibility since December 2012.

Rusty

@Lou1985 posted:

This whole manufacture worship in 3 rail O is ridiculous. I wish it was more like other scales, where people bought what they like regardless of who the manufacture is.

Since O Gauge manufacturers chose to make competing operating systems, a lot of us non-electronics techs were forced to make a choice.  Like my LHS advised me on the question of DCS or Lionel's command control, "Pick one, and stick to it".  I did and happened to choose DCS.  Part of the reason was I liked all of MTH's stuff I had purchased.  Early on Lionel's length in business actually chased me away because I bought cheap cars with plastic trucks because I was buying new and used and didn't understand the variety of its products at the time.   The "worship" for me is mostly with engines. K-Line, Lionel, Atlas O, Weaver all blend well with MTH stuff as I think most would agree.  But, as was stated earlier, a lot of us have sizeable investments in MTH products and clearly their survival or tooling means a lot to us.

So I guess Lionel has saved the world as we know it?

@Phil55 posted:

So I guess Lionel has saved the world as we know it?

Yes…

@Richie C. posted:

Check this thread....

MTH is still in business. | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Ironically, the fact that it was even necessary to start a thread like that only makes one wonder even more what is going on at MTH. Can you imagine if someone started a serious  thread with: “Hey everybody! I just talked to Charles Ro and guess what? Lionel is STILL in business!”

A post like that would only lead to more speculating and questions on what the heck is really going on with Lionel.

@Madockawando posted:

Ironically, the fact that it was even necessary to start a thread like that only makes one wonder even more what is going on at MTH. Can you imagine if someone started a serious  thread with: “Hey everybody! I just talked to Charles Ro and guess what? Lionel is STILL in business!”

A post like that would only lead to more speculating and questions on what the heck is really going on with Lionel.

A thread like that wasn’t necessary, but given Lionel’s ambiguous announcement, no one knows who has which tooling.  There seems to be two big categories of tooling that folks want to know about 1) MTH’s excellent Korean made steam tooling and 2) RailKing and RailKing Imperial tooling.

According to this announcement below, MTH still retains 80% of their tooling assets.

https://mthtrains.com/news/706

@Hudson J1e posted:

I totally agree with this. While I am an MTH fan I do not have any dislike for Lionel or any other company. I didn’t buy my MTH trains based on the color of the box. MTH made trains that we’re to my interest (scale wheels—fixed pilots, etc) and had Lionel done the same I know I would have bought more Lionel. I do have some Lionel which are beautiful trains. No plans on selling them. I just don’t see the rivalry between manufacturers. I would never want anything bad to happen to any train manufacturer. I want them all to be successful and compete with each to build great products for the hobby.

It is similar to the cars I like. I love my Mopars but do not dislike Ford or Chevy.

What you & Lou said makes a lot of sense,…..which is kinda refreshing, given the amount of nonsense on here,…🙄

Pat

I first saw this thread yesterday morning and I guess i could not say I was surprised that Lionel would purchase some MTH tooling at some point. I am glad that MTH will still be in business though being that I have  a lot of MTH locomotives and that DCS will keep going.

@IRON HORSE posted:

Since O Gauge manufacturers chose to make competing operating systems, a lot of us non-electronics techs were forced to make a choice.  Like my LHS advised me on the question of DCS or Lionel's command control, "Pick one, and stick to it".  I did and happened to choose DCS.  Part of the reason was I liked all of MTH's stuff I had purchased.  Early on Lionel's length in business actually chased me away because I bought cheap cars with plastic trucks because I was buying new and used and didn't understand the variety of its products at the time.   The "worship" for me is mostly with engines. K-Line, Lionel, Atlas O, Weaver all blend well with MTH stuff as I think most would agree.  But, as was stated earlier, a lot of us have sizeable investments in MTH products and clearly their survival or tooling means a lot to us.

“Forced to choose”…..???……why??….as much as some of y’all are willing to pay for locomotives, but you guys cringe at the thought of buying a second remote?…I guess if that’s the way ya feel, so be it,…just seems silly given the fact the two systems work pretty well side by side,….I’m the farthest thing from an electronics expert, and I have both systems, and with the help with some of the fellas on this forum, my stuff runs great……your LHS saying pick one system and stick with it kinda limits you from a lot of the possibilities,…..I’d think….again, the fellas that clamor about having to buy a second remote system, but will gladly buy thousands and thousands of dollars of locomotives don’t hold a whole lot a weight,…seems a silly argument,…

Pat

Doesn't sound like Lionel bought much of the Railking engine tooling. Bantam items for lionchief sets mostly.

The game changer hype was way overplayed. Lionel buying tooling and using it is nothing new, they have done this before and didn't change much of anything in the past except make competion smaller and prices higher.

It's nice too know that the tooling will see more use but those who already own this stuff it's going to be a hard sell, especially with the higher prices. Looking at the price tags in that latest catalog made very happy that I bought what I wanted when it was affordable.

I think the other nice thing is how all of this makes just about anything in an MTH box worth a lot more on the 2nd hand market. About 3 months ago I sold a used Railking starter set on eBay for just under $400. It was any early model with the less reliable ps2 5v board. I paid $265 for it new in 2003. I wanted to slip a note in the box that said "You really don't have to pay this much for an old starter set. MTH is still making trains, and will for a long time."

For completeness, here is MTH’s official announcement concerning this relatively small purchase of tooling (80% of the company is intact)-

https://mthtrains.com/news/706

According to Wolf, "after years of competing head to head, it was delightful to sit down and negotiate the sale of these tools with Lionel's Howard Hitchcock. The Lionel team did a great job selecting models that will fit in nicely within their lineup.”

And to think that back in the early 90s all Mike wanted to do was build & sell trains for Lionel. They shot down his initial idea of making a new engine (which would have been marketed as a Lionel product) that spawned him to developing his own train line up. I wonder if Lionel bought the tooling to that first Locomotive?

@harmonyards posted:

“Forced to choose”…..???……why??….as much as some of y’all are willing to pay for locomotives, but you guys cringe at the thought of buying a second remote?…

Pat

Pat,

You make a valid point.  "Forced to choose" was an overstatement.  I'm not speaking for all MTH fans--just my own journey.  For 20+ years I've been getting both MTH and Lionel catalogs and, quite frankly, there was such an extensive selection from MTH that I've had no need to choose engines from the Lionel catalogs.  As it was, I could barely scratch the surface of buying from my want list from just MTH's catalogs.  When I decided to get into the command environment, I wasn't going to just jump into both MTH and Lionel at the same time so I could have even more choices.  And I already had PS2 engines.  Today, however, both remotes perhaps makes a lot of sense, given the downsizing and no catalogs from MTH. You are right in that, today, why limit your choices?

@IRON HORSE posted:

Pat,

You make a valid point.  "Forced to choose" was an overstatement.  I'm not speaking for all MTH fans--just my own journey.  For 20+ years I've been getting both MTH and Lionel catalogs and, quite frankly, there was such an extensive selection from MTH that I've had no need to choose engines from the Lionel catalogs.  As it was, I could barely scratch the surface of buying from my want list from just MTH's catalogs.  When I decided to get into the command environment, I wasn't going to just jump into both MTH and Lionel at the same time so I could have even more choices.  And I already had PS2 engines.  Today, however, both remotes perhaps makes a lot of sense, given the downsizing and no catalogs from MTH. You are right in that, today, why limit your choices?

Yep,..and that’s the point I was trying to convey,….I totally agree MTH did venture into a grand plethora of models vs. the “other guys” ……the other point I’ll make is given the current cost of new equipment, taking older MTH PS1 or dead PS2 equipment and making it TMCC is another viable option,….

Pat