K-line TMCC cruise-equipped diesels: Not lashing-up with other TMCC diesel-electrics

Very unlikely you can get two TMCC engines to run together even when they have the same manufacturer unless they are the same type and era of engine like an A unit and powered B unit. The only way you have a chance is if both engines have the same motor, wheel diameter, and gear ratio, electronics. ERR Cruise doesn't have the same speed steps as Odyssey.

Pete

@Norton thanks for the heads up. Better to know now instead of later. Because of my small fleet of command control engines, my Lionel HHP-8(set version) and Dash-9(from 1999) worked well, so going on that I assumed that it would work. As much as I would like to get another MTH, I'm on the edge with the current state of things, although then I'd be able to run lashups with those engines since I'd be eyeing another proto 3. If I go the Legacy route then I'll have another engine that I can't lashup. But, I guess I gotta start somewhere!

Norton is 100% correct.  The only 2 TMCC engines I have successfully lashed up was an SD90 and SD80.  They are very similar builds.  Any engine is worth a try but you'll find as Norton suggested that the very similar builds are the higher success rate.

That kind of changes things considering it's the exact same engine. I know, no guarantees, but that increases the odds.

I haven't had a problem with any MTH proto 3s. I don't have a legacy engine or the system...yet ha. But, would I be correct to assume two Legacy Diesels in a lashup are quite dependable?

I can't tell clearly from your description, but is your K-Line engine with cruise control equipped with a K-Line cruise unit, or an ERR cruise unit?

As an aside, Lionel produced a number of 3-engine GP-7 Pullmor-motored TMCC-equipped sets back in the late 90s or early 2000s, with two powered engines and a dummy, and they operated fine together, from what I've seen. Of course, these are identical engines being run together. It would be interesting to see the owner's manual for these sets and see what it says about setting up the MU operation.

No. 18872

The GP9s run together because they are indentical. Try that with a GP9 and a 763 and results won't be the same.

Pete

Sorry @breezinup it hasn't been upgraded to cruise commander M. I should've clarified that it's a K-line cruise 4.0(they made 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 andlast 4.0) According to somegreat people on this site, the 3.0 and 4.0 K-line boards operate pretty well- I can attest to that for my F40PH, at least. That said, they're usually the first thing to go and hard to fix, hence why I may upgrade to ERR's CCM in the future.

Yes, that's true. Just expanding on Marty's statement about the only two TMCC engines he's successfully MUed. Whether dissimilar TMCC engines can be successfully MUed will depend on gear ratios and other factors, although it would seem that modulating power of the separate dissimilar engines when addressing each of them may work in some cases. I can't remember if I've tried running two dissimilar TMCC engines close together at the same speed.

I have had luck running different manufacturer's locos together without any problems.  I first make sure that they run somewhat the same speed before I couple them together.

Here is a train being led by a Lionel Legacy GP30, followed by an Atlas O Trainman U23B, a MTH RS-11 (converted to TMCC with an ERR Cruise Commander), a Williams F3 (converted to TMCC with an ERR Cruise Commander), and a K-Line GP38 (upgraded with an ERR Cruise-M).  They seem to run pretty well together.

Tom

@StevefromPA posted:

Sorry @breezinup it hasn't been upgraded to cruise commander M. I should've clarified that it's a K-line cruise 4.0(they made 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 andlast 4.0) According to somegreat people on this site, the 3.0 and 4.0 K-line boards operate pretty well- I can attest to that for my F40PH, at least. That said, they're usually the first thing to go and hard to fix, hence why I may upgrade to ERR's CCM in the future.

There have been a lot of reports over the years about the problematic operation of the K-Line cruise units. Maybe 3.0 and 4.0 are better, I don't know. Usually it is recommended that when running engines together, the cruise control units should be turned off. I'm not surprised that trying to run a K-Line TMCC engine with cruise with a Lionel TMCC engine isn't going to work. Turn the cruise off on the K-Line and see what happens. Even then, odds are good there will be problems. I think the ERR cruise units are supposed to have some flex built in to make MU operations more successful. But with engines that are quite dissimilar, I'd don't know if it'll work or not.

Tom, I didn't see your post when I posted mine. Your experience running these engines together is interesting (and reassuring!). The secret is the flexibility of the ERR cruise systems, apparently.

Close matching helps when doubleheading conventional, it sure wouldn't hurt here imo. Try switching head end too, I find the weaker up front to be better for pulling out slack and preventing #1 from spinning.(conventional)

@Adriatic I was so surprised when none of my RMT Buddys worked well together! I was so disappointed. I thought at least two of the five would. Unfortunately, that was the closest I came to successfully running conventional.

The later K-line cruise Boards were pretty good. The problem is that, should there tend to be a problem with K-line cruise and the Board goes bad, then it's quite hard to get the engine back to working order. Hence why many people switch them out. I believe that the liklihood decreased as K-line improved the feature but there's time I can't help but feeling I have a ticking time bomb is my engine ha

Well, that puts me off trying to MU any TMCC engines unless they are from the same production runs and were advertised as compatible; there are TMCC F3 powered B units that fit that description. 

OTOH, I have never had an issue MU’ing any Legacy engines, including diesels and steamers with different wheel diameters and motors. Or at least I have never noticed any “drag” effect from one engine in the combination. I just assumed that the Legacy software made allowances for this. Some Legacy switchers and other smaller engines are said to misbehave if you try to MU them but I don’t have any of those.

For many TMCC engines, you will have better luck turning off any cruise before trying to run them together.  Then run them on the same track uncoupled and see if they come close to speed matching.  Without the cruise, they don't have to be exactly the same speed curve as they won't fight like cruise equipped models will.

If you have multiple ERR Cruise equipped locomotives with similar gearing, you can usually use the "Nudge" feature to speed match them and then they should run pretty well together.  The back-EMF cruise is a bit more forgiving than the motor tach based speed control as it REALLY wants to "catch up" when the counts start falling behind.  The back-EMF won't fight as hard if there's a slight difference.

Shortly after I bought the K-Line TMCC-equipped PRR FM Train Master in 2005 I lashed it up behind my Lionel TCA 50^th Anniversary PRR FM Train Master to pull a long freight train.  The Lionel FM has Odyssey and I believe cruise control.  I used the original TMCC system with a CAB-1 remote.  They operated fine together but I found out that either one could pull that long train by itself so I disconnected them from the lash-up.  I still run them both individually.

Bill T   

KLine cruise at the time it came out was ok.  Compared to what we have now it sucks.  Problematic, prone to failure.   With that said I agree with what was said above.  Run them with cruise off, see how it works out.  Even with two MTH PS2 or 3 equipped or Lionel Legacy engines in a lashup doesn't always work.  There's always minor variations in production.