Lionel JLC GG1 Smoke Unit

I tried to find a JLC GG1 so hoping this lines up to your actual product number.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...-Stripe-4876-6-18355

The "why" is simple. The smoke unit PCB connects with a 3 wire harness. In that, one wire is for the smoke heat, and the OTHER wire is for the fan, however, SOME OF THESE tied the outer 2 pins of the input together such that fan was powered by the smoke heat power.

So, someone may have put in the WRONG STYLE and thus why the heater is heating- and so the fan is running. Again, Lionel made common smoke unit housings and thus the PCBs might fit and look very similar, but electrically they are different.

I'm thinking the way this works, the AC smoke regulator was supposed to regulate a lower effective voltage/current for the resistor, and then the smoke fan might be controlled of the smoke TRIAC output of the R2LC. If an incorrect smoke unit PCB was installed, then the fan would see the power from the smoke resistor via the AC regulator, however, when the R2LC TRIAC is turned on, you are then getting that higher voltage. If they put in a new smoke unit, it also might be the 27 Ohm version, so the AC regulator is not putting enough heat/power/voltage into the resistor for full smoke, but then the smoke TRIAC of the R2LC was designed to run the 27 Ohm style anyway, so the fan is already running and this increased power then heats the resistor?

I'm just trying to tie the 2 events together- replacing the smoke unit- and then the problem kicking in. So it kinda sorta works, but does not function correctly.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.  I looked round and I couldn't find any schematic or details on how the smoke unit is wired in that unit.  I am curious what they use to trigger the smoke fan since there is no special smoke control board, make me wonder where is the logic that actually triggers the smoke to run.

I will check my GG1's smoke unit to see which type I have.  Thanks for the inputs on this problem.  I'll let you know what mine look like.

Lonnie

Here is the smoke unit that I have in my JLC, GG1.  I wish I had a picture of the original one.

First off, a clearer picture would be useful.

Try checking continuity between these two posts with the connector disconnected.

Also, show us the connector that plugs there.

On the vision line gg1 you have to program it to operate prototypically or stay on constant.  Don't know if this applies to jlc version 

Agreem the best test is a continuity test between the outer pins in the off state with the connector unplugged. That said, from the picture it looks like that is the correct smoke unit PCB and they should not be in common.

So- that does point more in the direction of programming- specific type code for the R2LC function.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ents/71-8354-250.pdf

According to this manual, that is type 8.

page 31

TrainMaster Command Control operations
Reprogramming your locomotive to restore features
If your locomotive is unresponsive to your commands in the TrainMaster Command Control
environment, we recommend that you follow this procedure to reset your locomotive.
1. Slide the Command reverse unit switch to the PROG position.
2. Plug in and connect your Command Base.
3. Place your locomotive on the track, then power up the track.
4. Press ENG and enter the locomotive’s ID#.
5. Press SET.
6. Press ENG and enter the locomotive’s ID# again.
7. Press AUX1.
8. Enter 8 for this particular locomotive.
8. Turn off track power and wait ten seconds.
10. Slide the Command reverse unit switch back to the RUN position.
At this point, your locomotive has been reset. Restore power to the track and operate the
locomotive as usual. Be sure to use the ID# entered in Step 4

Actually, reading the manual, without even seeing a wiring diagram, I think I get how this works.

The smoke unit resistor is powered via the AC smoke regulator.

The fan is driven from the R2LC smoke TRIAC, using a single diode and capacitor to rectify, and then a 5V regulator for the fan motor.

But here is where the magic comes in. We know that normally the smoke output of the TRIAC on the R2LC is not full wave. However, when you press and hold 9- that is often called "boost" and switches the TRIAC more on full wave. So, to exploit this, they wired the diode in such a way that the normal what we expect half wave is not charging up and thus the fan does not run. The fan does run when the 9 boost is pressed, because again, this is changing how the TRIAC fires, and that condition aligns to charging the capacitor and thus providing the regulator and fan with sufficient voltage and current to run. Releasing 9, even though to an AC meter, the TRIAC is conducting, it's more DC offset than AC and in the wrong direction to be rectified and power the fan.

Choosing the wrong or correct feature code determines how the smoke TRIAC of the R2LC behaves.

Again page 23 of the manual gives us these subtle clues.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Actually, reading the manual, without even seeing a wiring diagram, I think I get how this works.

The smoke unit resistor is powered via the AC smoke regulator.

The fan is driven from the R2LC smoke TRIAC, using a single diode and capacitor to rectify, and then a 5V regulator for the fan motor.

But here is where the magic comes in. We know that normally the smoke output of the TRIAC on the R2LC is not full wave. However, when you press and hold 9- that is often called "boost" and switches the TRIAC more on full wave. So, to exploit this, they wired the diode in such a way that the normal what we expect half wave is not charging up and thus the fan does not run. The fan does run when the 9 boost is pressed, because again, this is changing how the TRIAC fires, and that condition aligns to charging the capacitor and thus providing the regulator and fan with sufficient voltage and current to run. Releasing 9, even though to an AC meter, the TRIAC is conducting, it's more DC offset than AC and in the wrong direction to be rectified and power the fan.

Choosing the wrong or correct feature code determines how the smoke TRIAC of the R2LC behaves.

Again page 23 of the manual gives us these subtle clues.

I want to know how they accomplish this trick since there is no timing element that I see in the picture.   This is on page 9 of the manual. Noting that the engine code of 8 is the standard diesel engine type, there's no timing happening that I know of with the R2LC...

You probably have a point there, they could be using the motherboard and a second microprocessor on that board (update, now betting it's the railsounds board)  to perform the function.

The GG1 did have a special motherboard and we don't get to see the component backside.

Another thought, the Railsounds 5 board appear unique with an added diode on the back????

And the manual mentioning that for it to smoke in neutral, a 9V battery would be installed and that powers the railsounds board.

So does that imply the function is then off the railsounds board specific to the fan?

The smoke fan wiring harness clearly plugs into the motherboard on the 4 pin connector.

Again, 3 pin side goes to the smoke unit, center pin is frame ground, the other open spot in the socket is the smoke regulator wire making this blue wire the fan source.

Again, since we say this is timing based, so a microprocessor- and the Railsounds 5 did have a TRIAC onboard that can trigger and activate things. In this case, I think they used that to then fire the fan off, meanwhile the smoke resistor is heated and powered via the AC smoke regulator.

So yeah, we might have been chasing the wrong thing- this could be all up to the railsounds board, and with constant on fan, that might be implying that TRIAC failed, and sadly, that appears to be a very custom modified board specific to this engine (let alone the removal of all the modular boards from Lionel parts......).

I'm beginning to think that maybe I should just leave it alone since it does work in an unusual manner.  I remember the old saying, "Leave well enough alone."