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Hey folks, I have an older Lionel ES44 SKU number 6-82209. Currently, the engine is having a motive issue. By itself, it runs okay-ish. However, when attached to a train or put under load, it does not move like it should. It takes till about speed step 30 to start moving, and even then it is still sluggish. On the rear flywheel motor, I can completely make it stop while moving with just one finger. That should not happen. I think the motor/(s maybe) is worn, but I'd like some more opinions on this before I go by new motors for the engine

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Your test method is likely flawed, so your conclusion the rear motor is weak is likely incorrect.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...-Diesel-8056-6-82209

#1 the front motor has the tachometer so it's load or speed determines how much power BOTH motors are getting. Again, if your test has the front motor basically unloaded, loading the rear motor is an invalid test.

#2 these are Liondrive style motors- meaning one KNOWN weak point or flaw is the drive coupler can slip on the motor shaft. If that happened to the front motor with the tachometer- then the rear motor doesn't get enough power to move under load until you keep turning up the speed commanded to a point. Again, because the front motor may be slipping and thus not loaded, the feedback loop is seeing that it takes very little power to spin the motor to the commanded rpm, and that same low power is what feeds the rear motor. Only when you keep pushing harder and harder higher speed steps, the power keeps rising to a point where the rear motor finally overcomes the load.

#3, the fix typically is to use loctite 660 retaining compound, to lock the liondrive coupler to the motor shaft.

Screen Shot 2023-10-08 at 8.06.42 AM

Topic on a Liondrive coupling being loose and describes the repair https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...l-can-motor-question

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Last edited by Vernon Barry
@JohnB posted:

Sam.

     Make sure the Odyssey  switch is on.

JohnB

Odyssey is on



Your test method is likely flawed, so your conclusion the rear motor is weak is likely incorrect.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...-Diesel-8056-6-82209

#1 the front motor has the tachometer so it's load or speed determines how much power BOTH motors are getting. Again, if your test has the front motor basically unloaded, loading the rear motor is an invalid test.

#2 these are Liondrive style motors- meaning one KNOWN weak point or flaw is the drive coupler can slip on the motor shaft. If that happened to the front motor with the tachometer- then the rear motor doesn't get enough power to move under load until you keep turning up the speed commanded to a point. Again, because the front motor may be slipping and thus not loaded, the feedback loop is seeing that it takes very little power to spin the motor to the commanded rpm, and that same low power is what feeds the rear motor. Only when you keep pushing harder and harder higher speed steps, the power keeps rising to a point where the rear motor finally overcomes the load.

#3, the fix typically is to use loctite 660 retaining compound, to lock the liondrive coupler to the motor shaft.

Screen Shot 2023-10-08 at 8.06.42 AM

Topic on a Liondrive coupling being loose and describes the repair https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...l-can-motor-question

1. Part of my load testing included hooking up a 15 car train to the engine. That would put both motors under load, correct? If so, doing this would usually make the engine run well for a few seconds before it just (metaphorically) snapped out of it and didn't move again unless given a push or taken to speed step 50.

2. Could I be able to tell visually if it is/was slipping? I've taken both trucks off and the couplings look in good condition, and nothing feels loose or out of place on the motor. Of course that could just be me, maybe I'm not looking at it correctly

I appreciate the help and advice, I look forward to receiving more information soon

@Sams Trains posted:

1. Part of my load testing included hooking up a 15 car train to the engine. That would put both motors under load, correct? Answer: NO, not if one of the motors was slipping and not coupled to the load- most specifically the front motor with the tachometer.

If so, doing this would usually make the engine run well for a few seconds before it just (metaphorically) snapped out of it and didn't move again unless given a push or taken to speed step 50. Again, what is unique is that as you raise the speed steps up (higher throttle) even an unloaded or partially loaded front motor (likely a slipping coupling) then only at some point where a lot of power is needed to spin the motor at a higher commanded RPM does this equal the power of the loaded rear motor to begin moving.

2. Could I be able to tell visually if it is/was slipping? I've taken both trucks off and the couplings look in good condition, and nothing feels loose or out of place on the motor. Of course that could just be me, maybe I'm not looking at it correctly.

Attempt to hold the small coupler end of the motor while gently turning the flywheel. If the coupler shifts on the shaft and the flywheel spins in comparison there is your answer.

@Sams Trains posted:

It takes till about speed step 30 to start moving, and even then it is still sluggish. Yes, that's exactly how a system with a slipping front motor would operate.

On the rear flywheel motor, I can completely make it stop while moving with just one finger. That should not happen.

NO, you can only say that won't happen if you KNOW and can measure or have some idea of the actual voltage and power the motor is receiving. Again, what you are implying is an RPM and Torque curve based on power input- and this motor is operating abnormally outside of the expected curve.

On example would be put a lightbulb in parallel with the motor. Brighter = more power, dimmer less power.

Again, since this is a "System" we have to understand how the system reacts vs a single element.

If your front motor with the tachometer is loaded, when you command a speed step, the controller does everything it can to maintain that exact speed by raising or lowering the power (I'm not using voltage because it's typically a PWM power rather than pure voltage change) to both motors. Again, if you attempt to slow the front motor, the controller responds with higher power to maintain the RPM.

As a sign of this, if you have the engine on rollers, and load ONLY the front motor (either finger against the flywheel or finger against the wheels) then as you load it harder, the controller will raise the power to both motors, and typically the rear motor will see a speed increase proportional to the load you are putting on the front motor.

If you load the rear motor in the same scenario only, the front motor would just continue to maintain it's current speed/RPM. The controller cannot sense the change in load or resulting RPM of the rear motor, there is no tachometer.

On the track, let's take your scenario of pulling a car load. If the rear motor was weak, then the front motor being the one trying to maintain absolute RPM no matter what would be in wheel slip trying to drag the back end motor and truck not contributing.

If the front motor is slipping at the coupling, the tachometer is seeing the motor spinning at the commanded RPM but the truck wheels would not be slipping. At the same time, because the motor is not loaded well because of the shaft coupling slipping- the rear motor ALSO is not getting much power because the controller is again only trying to maintain the RPM of the front motor.

Again, your symptoms line up to the front motor being the problem.

Last edited by Vernon Barry


If the front motor is slipping at the coupling, the tachometer is seeing the motor spinning at the commanded RPM but the truck wheels would not be slipping. At the same time, because the motor is not loaded well because of the shaft coupling slipping- the rear motor ALSO is not getting much power because the controller is again only trying to maintain the RPM of the front motor.

Again, your symptoms line up to the front motor being the problem.

So it sounds like the front motor coupling is the issue then, and I should glue them together?

@Sams Trains posted:

So it sounds like the front motor coupling is the issue then, and I should glue them together?

When you say "them" It means pull the coupler off the motor shaft (ball with 2 posts sticking out), clean shaft and the ball of any oil or grease using a solvent, then use a retaining compound like Loctite 660 or other, just a drop on the shaft when you press the coupler back on- per the topic I linked.

You did read that topic right?

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...l-can-motor-question

Last edited by Vernon Barry

When you say "them" It means pull the coupler off the motor shaft (ball with 2 posts sticking out), clean shaft and the ball of any oil or grease using a solvent, then use a retaining compound like Loctite 660 or other, just a drop on the shaft when you press the coupler back on- per the topic I linked.

You did read that topic right?

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...l-can-motor-question

I read it, yes. I understand the process better

Don't use glue, for a proper bond, consider something like Loctite #660 Retaining Compound.  It's made for this specific kind of fitting.  Make sure you thoroughly clean both the shaft and the nub that fits on the shaft.

Should have specified, I meant use the loctite not just glue

@Sams Trains posted:

Well, it was a success until it wasn’t. My initial test worked fine, but when I gave it a reasonably sized train to pull, it came loose again. Would anyone recommend a stronger compound?

Look closely at the coupling. I’ve seen these develop hairline cracks almost undetectable to the naked eye. If no cracks present, how you prepped the parts to apply the 660 is extremely important. Also, follow the recommended cure times. Lightly scuff the end of the shaft with fine paper, 800 or 1000 to create a surface for the retaining compound to bite. Clean the end of the shaft, and the bore of the coupling with alcohol before applying the retainer.

@MichaelB posted:

You could try green loctite, since it's the strongest loctite to my knowledge. As you need to use heat to remove whatever it holds.



Pat

Last edited by harmonyards
@harmonyards posted:

Look closely at the coupling. I’ve seen these develop hairline cracks almost undetectable to the naked eye. If no cracks present, how you prepped the parts to apply the 660 is extremely important. Also, follow the recommended cure times. Lightly scuff the end of the shaft with fine paper, 800 or 1000 to create a surface for the retaining compound to bite. Clean the end of the shaft, and the bore of the coupling with alcohol before applying the retainer.

660 is green

Pat

I'll inspect the coupling and try that, however my 660 came out as silver. Part number of what I got exactly is 66010. Are there different versions for plastic or metal parts? If retaining compound won't work, what would you recommend? At this point as long as the coupling will stick for good, I'm game. I just want to run the engine lol

@Sams Trains posted:

I'll inspect the coupling and try that, however my 660 came out as silver. Part number of what I got exactly is 66010. Are there different versions for plastic or metal parts? If retaining compound won't work, what would you recommend? At this point as long as the coupling will stick for good, I'm game. I just want to run the engine lol

I was thinking 640, ….yes, 660 is silver …..there is no retaining compound for plastic parts. They will not cure against plastics. ….

Pat

@Sams Trains posted:

Darn, this kinda sucks. Would a new coupling or motor solve the problem?

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...4#184156761836320534

read this thread, ….it’s running parallel to yours,…….There’s a STL file attached in the thread,……get someone to print you one, …..Rod says he’s having success so far,…..I’m looking into having these printed in metal, but it’ll be a while before I get to that project. ……..if you just want to buy new motors, that’d cure it too, but it’s the most expensive way out IMO, ….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...4#184156761836320534

read this thread, ….it’s running parallel to yours,…….There’s a STL file attached in the thread,……get someone to print you one, …..Rod says he’s having success so far,…..I’m looking into having these printed in metal, but it’ll be a while before I get to that project. ……..if you just want to buy new motors, that’d cure it too, but it’s the most expensive way out IMO, ….

Pat

Sam you should contact Dennis LaRock (contact info in his profile) and get him to send you a couple of his printed spiders. He has used my .stl file to print them up and he has reported good success with one of his engines. IMO there is not much sense ordering new motors with the same OEM delrin spiders. They split in time and just spin on the motor shaft, so you will likely have the same old problem all over again. I have been having good success with 3D printed resin spiders here. Dennis is using a filament printer and PETG material.

Rod

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