Lionel Legacy K4 Gear Box fix, Tales From Harmon Shops

@harmonyards posted:

This Tuscan K4 was one of the worst offenders,…..the gear shift is blatantly obvious,…..this K4 wouldn’t even move,….you could barely even hear the gears trying to grind, it was so far shifted from the worm shaft …..

Pat

Holy you know what. That is just plain terrible. EPIC FAIL. How could this be the final product. As one of my former bosses used to say, "Unacceptable". This is just so wrong. If anyone has an engine that won't move, that is a new paperweight until it get fixed.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Holy you know what. That is just plain terrible. EPIC FAIL. How could this be the final product. As one of my former bosses used to say, "Unacceptable". This is just so wrong. If anyone has an engine that won't move, that is a new paperweight until it get fixed.

Dave

My response ( previous message) was "holy cow"; I think yours is better. 🙂

I understand that all manufacturers can have the occasional "hiccup", but this quite unbelievable.

It appears the emphasis was not to make a good running, quality product; but if it doesn't/can't run (literally), then what's the point? 🤔

Altoona would be shocked.

You guys keep up the good work. 👍

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Dave

I understand that all manufacturers can have the occasional "hiccup", but this quite unbelievable.

It appears the emphasis was not to make a good running, quality product; but if it doesn't/can't run (literally), then what's the point? 🤔

Mark in Oregon

All it had to do is last for one year from the date of purchase, within the first 3 years of the manufacturing date. So it was a success. That way folks can just call it a "shelf queen" and focus on grabbing the next flashy locomotive out of the new catalog.

Fotunately( for us) Pat and others are able to keep the vast majority of locomotives on the layout and operational. Often times better than new, this is no exception.

The sad thing is. How many folks have locomotives with this issue and are unaware of this forum where the best of the best techs hang out to discuss, and offer their services to others? Surely most dealers are not up to the task, especially since they are not setup for machine shop type services.

A few of the K4’s I’ve fixed are not forum members, but have been forwarded to me via other forum members…..that shows how well this forum reaches out beyond it’s members and the word gets out,….

Pat

@RickO posted:

1. All it had to do is last for one year from the date of purchase, within the first 3 years of the manufacturing date. So it was a success. That way folks can just call it a "shelf queen" and focus on grabbing the next flashy locomotive out of the new catalog.

2. Fotunately( for us) Pat and others are able to keep the vast majority of locomotives on the layout and operational. Often times better than new, this is no exception.

1. True, unfortunately. Interesting thing about O scale in general (and Lionel in particular) is it seems like the 2 most often discussed topics are:

"How do I fix my new Lionel?/ poor QC" and:

"What are you going to buy from the new catalog?"

Almost like there's a disconnect somewhere...

2. Equally true. 👍

Mark in Oregon

Rick is right on point as far as it getting past the warranty period.

Thing is why would these thing not be discovered by the manufacturer after a while? Yeah, I know that they wouldn't make people aware of this sort of issue because it is quite the sleeper waiting to awaken and all you know what will break loose.

Now, do I think that they did this on purpose? No. I guess they don't have the rigorous testing that they used to. I seem to remember seeing a video somewhere or maybe a clip in a magazine about Lionel(the old company we all remember) testing the you know what out of a quite a number of products. This usually was done to the point of failure, at least whatever I saw/read was stressing.

Do they still do this sort of thing? Well, with what we're seeing I would say not to the point of failure. I think that this is just because of turn around, overhead, all that stuff that makes a company function and profitable.

That being said, this still should allow them to put one of their newest things through the meat grinder after it is released to see if there is any issues. Imagine if the Legacy Mogul was out through these tests before it left the factory and after it was shipped to customers. I would say that Lionel would have done a lot better on all those if there had been. What can we do but send our Pennsylvania engines to the great Harmon Yards.

I doubt Lionel is even aware there is an issue. If we look back at our own diagnostics on this forum, those engines exhibiting actual failures are strictly from the 2011 model year,….way way out of warranty, or even being a blip on the Lionel radar,…..the other models….we, as a collective group, again, on this thread have identified “ potential “ trouble makers and made note that those models would definitely benefit from a preemptive strike. In other words, fix it before it fixes to give you a fit…..I don’t think Lionel doesn’t care, I think they don’t know…..it’s been 30 + years since I’ve seen Lionel do an active TSB and issue corrective parts in field,….again, to recap what I’ve seen, and believe me, my living room was full of K4’s …..the only locomotives that actually had failures were the 2011 models,….all the others ( and I’ve run the gambit ) have some shift, but were still running…..the fix for them is simply cheap insurance for longevity,……

Pat

Pat, does this arrangement of gears have anything to do with them being back driveable ?   I have 4 Mikados and a Consolidation with this setup. It does make lubing a lot easier. I have 4 10 Wheelers that just have the old school setup. Not back driveable.

@Dave_C posted:

Pat, does this arrangement of gears have anything to do with them being back driveable ?   I have 4 Mikados and a Consolidation with this setup. It does make lubing a lot easier. I have 4 10 Wheelers that just have the old school setup. Not back driveable.

It has everything to do with them being back driveable …….being back driveable I believe is a by-product of the engineering process to get these engines to run incredibly smoothly on the legacy’s 2 million speed steps,….these K4’s will creep like you can’t believe …..with a crappy 385 mabuchi……if you think about it, the low speed steps mean that motor is spinning way below its optimum voltage for making torque, so they use mechanical advantage to make it up,….that’s my theory, and I’m sticking to it,……I think Lionel believes what’s good for the goose, is good for the gander, cause we’re seeing this compound gear box clear across the line….perhaps if these were simple gear boxes, ie; single worm on single worm wheel, these crummy motors ( mabuchis, cannons, etc.) might be exhibiting low voltage motor cog that would show up as a stutter in the lower speed steps,…

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I doubt Lionel is even aware there is an issue. If we look back at our own diagnostics on this forum, those engines exhibiting actual failures are strictly from the 2011 model year,….way way out of warranty, or even being a blip on the Lionel radar,…..the other models….we, as a collective group, again, on this thread have identified “ potential “ trouble makers and made note that those models would definitely benefit from a preemptive strike. In other words, fix it before it fixes to give you a fit…..I don’t think Lionel doesn’t care, I think they don’t know…..it’s been 30 + years since I’ve seen Lionel do an active TSB and issue corrective parts in field,….again, to recap what I’ve seen, and believe me, my living room was full of K4’s …..the only locomotives that actually had failures were the 2011 models,….all the others ( and I’ve run the gambit ) have some shift, but were still running…..the fix for them is simply cheap insurance for longevity,……

Pat

That is exactly my point though Pat. The old days they actually ran stuff into the ground until it broke. I think that nowadays they see if things run for a little bit. Sure when Dave Olson gets a sample in the shops, he tests it out, but that isn't the final product either. I am sure he does the usual stuff to see if it works correctly, and if there is anything wrong, brings the spotlight on it. Back at the factory is where they should thoroughly test stuff out to see if it explodes. But of course, those days are gone.

Anyway, moving on, what are we working towards, fixing things so they are better than the original, right, right.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

That is exactly my point though Pat. The old days they actually ran stuff into the ground until it broke. I think that nowadays they see if things run for a little bit. Sure when Dave Olson gets a sample in the shops, he tests it out, but that isn't the final product either. I am sure he does the usual stuff to see if it works correctly, and if there is anything wrong, brings the spotlight on it. Back at the factory is where they should thoroughly test stuff out to see if it explodes. But of course, those days are gone.

Anyway, moving on, what are we working towards, fixing things so they are better than the original, right, right.

Build it better than they did …..😉

Pat

Yup!!!!

(Re) Made in U.S.A.  👍

New York Central heavy Mike, see box picture for number.

Gearbox looks different from the problematic K4, but I am not certain of any of this.

Gear has about 1/16 side to side movement play.

Is this safe or go to the defective list?

Thanks

Gray Lackey

@NHVRYGray posted:

New York Central heavy Mike, see box picture for number.

Gearbox looks different from the problematic K4, but I am not certain of any of this.

Gear has about 1/16 side to side movement play.

Is this safe or go to the defective list?

Thanks

Gray Lackey

Can you clear away the grease from the sides?….especially where the big brass worm wheel is against the side of the gear box……please …..and thank you for opening yours up!..

Pat

I'll get it tommorow afternoon.

NYC heavy Mike gearbox with grease removed.  Hope these are sufficient.  Engine bought used, rollers show fairly heavy use, but no abuse.

@NHVRYGray posted:

NYC heavy Mike gearbox with grease removed.  Hope these are sufficient.  Engine bought used, rollers show fairly heavy use, but no abuse.

Thanks for taking the time to do this valuable research…..I can see there is no large spacer between the gear box wall, and the bronze worm wheel. Therefore, these heavy Mikes will benefit from the added fix for the future and peace of mind, ……sorry to bust your bubble, but the fix will prevent any shifting ….Dave, are the heavy mikes on the hit list?….

Pat

Looks challenging to fix.  This makes US Hobbies gearboxes even more impressive since they are easily repairable.  Sorry for the 2-rail perspective.

I have one of these heavy Mike's as well.

While there is no spacer. The 1/16 of an inch sideplay on a locomotive showing signs of "fairly heavy use" is far better than the 1/4 of an inch + that the H10s have right out of the box.

This makes sense because there's minimal side shift of the secondary shaft in the chassis on these heavy Mike's.

On the h10 you can see the shaft shift inward and outward when changing direction before opening anything.