Lionel Legacy K4 Gear Box fix, Tales From Harmon Shops

Compiled a list of all the numbers from 2011-2020(since 2011 was the first K4 offering).

So, here is the list. There are a lot of Mike's

K4's Design Flaw Fail!
6-11264 PRR 1361 2011 fail
6-11265 PRR 1330 2011 fail
6-11266 PRR 1361 conventional 2011 fail
6-11331 Polar Railroad conventional 2011 fail

6-11327 PRR 3667 2011 fail
6-11329 PRR 3678 2011 fail
6-11319 Tuscan PRR 5409 2013 fail
6-11320 Tuscan PRR 5436 conventional 2013 fail

6-11330 PRR Polar Railroad #25 2014 fail
6-84116 PRR 5432 LHT 2016 fail
6-84115 PRR 5385 LHT 2016 fail
6-84816 PRR Broadway Limited 5493 2017 fail
1922030 PRR W.G. Harding Funeral 3750 2018 fail

Mike's
6-11278 WP 322 2011 fail
6-11279 WP 327 2011 fail
6-11280 B&O 4507 2011 fail
6-11281 B&O 451 conventional 2011 fail
6-11286 RI 2302 2011 fail
6-11287 RI 2305 conventional 2011 fail
6-11288 T&P 552 2011 fail
6-11289 T&P 557 conventional 2011 fail
6-11282 GN 3125 2011 fail
6-11284 MP 1310 2011 fail
6-11255 C&O 1062 2012 fail
6-11256 NH 3021 2012 fail
6-11257 PRR 8631 2012 fail
6-11258 Southern 4501(Green) 2012 fail
6-11259 UP 2840 2012 fail
6-11260 RG 1207 2012 fail
6-11261 DM&IR 1305 2012 fail
6-11262 Erie 3007 2012 fail
6-81182 L&N 1757 2014 fail
6-81184 P&WV 1152 2014 fail
6-81185 C of NJ 845 2014 fail
6-81186 Frisco 4126 2014 fail
6-81187 C&IM 551 2014 fail
6-81188 NYC 9506 2014 fail
6-81192 GN 3148 2014 fail
6-88179 Pilot 2014 fail
6-81183 MP 1496 2015 fail
6-81181 Southern 4866 2015 fail
6-81189 CB&Q 5509 2015 fail
6-81038 MR 8693 2015 fail
6-81191 Erie 3207 2015 fail
6-81190 WP 334 2015 fail
6-81193 W&LE 6012 2015 fail
6-81180 Black Unlettered 2015 fail
6-81194 NPR 689 2015 fail
6-84532 NPR 587 2017 fail
6-84466 GTW 3734 2017 fail
6-84467 MC 624 2017 fail
6-84468 NYC 5187 2017 fail
6-84469 PRR 9630 2017 fail
6-84470 Southern 4758 2017 fail
6-84465 B&O 4500 2017 fail
6-84471 UP 2537 2017 fail
2131310 ACL 823 2020 fail
2131330 GTW 4070 2020 fail
2131320 Georgia 300 2020 fail
2131340 L&HR 83 2020 fail
2131350 Monon 554 2020 fail
2131360 Frisco 4003 2020 fail
2131370 Southern 4501(Black) 2020 fail
2131380 Wabash 2202 2020 fail

USRA Chassis different from K4 design motor in Firebox connected to worm/gearbox with shaft
Pacific's
6-11338 Alton Limited 657 2012 Pass
6-11335 Blue Comet 832 2012 Pass
6-11334 Cresent Limited 1393 2012 Pass
6-11423 Blue Comet 833 2012 Pass
6-85170 A&WP 290 2018 Pass
6-85171 B&O 5300 2018 Pass
6-85172 R&N 425 2018 Pass
6-85173 NP 2256 2018 Pass
6-85174 Southern 1372 2018 Pass
6-85175 Halloween 1031 2018 Pass

All Pass for 2021 offerings

2122070 Asa Packer Set Lehigh Valley #2023 2021
2122080 Cardinals Set NYC #4899 2021
2122170 Santa Fe Valley Flyer #1369 2021
2131240 Atlantic Coast Line #1504 2021
2131250 GM&O #5296 2021
2131260 Great Northern #1385 2021
2131270 M-K-T #411 2021
2131280 Nickel Plate #168 2021
2131290 Southern Pacific #611 2021
2131300 Union Pacific #3218 2021
2131660 B&O #5236 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021
2131670 Delaware, Lacakawanna & Western #1133 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021
2131680 Louisville & Nashville #280 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021
2131690 Monon #444 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021
2131700 New York Central #3330 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021

H10's
6-84953 PRR Coal Hauler 1773 2018 fail
6-84948 PRR 1288 2018 fail
6-84949 PRSL 6072 2018 fail
6-84951 Bellefonte Central 2018 fail
6-85386 Pennsy Lines West 7109 2018 fail
6-84950 LI 109 2018 fail
6-84952 Weathered PRR 3529 2018 fail
6-85387 Western Allegheny 85 2018 fail

I can edit the list to take stuff off if we need to.

I can edit the list to take stuff off if we need to.

My original Post ",Wow, that looks like something I would wind up blowing up if I tried, lol. I have several of the K4 runs and haven't had them out of the box since no track big enough to run them on(unless I carpet run). I don't know if the TMCC 1361 K4 has that issue(wouldn't expect it to be, but what do I know). I guess we'll see more of these getting fixed when you are less busy with work and more engaged in "retirement", haha."

@harmonyards posted:

……I believe we’re just touching the tip of the iceberg with issues like this on Legacy gear boxes that have a similar construction and compound gear arrangements…..this fix will apply to more models than just the K4, that I’m sure of,…...

Pat

Time will tell, but as far as more models. This gearbox setup is in just about every locomotive Lionel has produced these days.

My H10 is the last locomotive I will purchase with this design. At least the bottom cover comes off so it might make repair a bit easier for you should I ever need it.

Hopefully 10 years from now we don't have locomotives piling up with faulty gearboxes.

For whom it may concern. Lionel makes no mention of the need to lube these extra shaft bushings in the chassis. It's a good idea to shine a flashlight through the spokes of the drivers and find these to give them a couple drops of light oil.

The Legacy K4 is a different design than the TMCC version, so I would be surprised if it has the same issue.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I don't know if the TMCC 1361 K4 has that issue(wouldn't expect it to be, but what do I know). .

This gearbox is strictly a Legacy design and appeared in 2011 in these first run k4s.

From there ,it found its way into the light and heavy mike's, northerns, mountains, consolidations,pacifics articulateds etc.

Its not used in the ESE hudsons or the j3a . It is not in the small 0-6-0s either.

The K4 chassis I sent to Pat was the Legacy K4, so we know it has the problem.  I just don't know if I should take my working K4 apart and do this fix to it as well! 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The K4 chassis I sent to Pat was the Legacy K4, so we know it has the problem.  I just don't know if I should take my working K4 apart and do this fix to it as well! 

I have two that I run double headed, and I hope that helps reduce the strain on them so they last longer.  At least there is a fix.  Thanks Pat!

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Wow, that looks like something I would wind up blowing up if I tried, lol. I have several of the K4 runs and haven't had them out of the box since no track big enough to run them on(unless I carpet run). I don't know if the TMCC 1361 K4 has that issue(wouldn't expect it to be, but what do I know). I guess we'll see more of these getting fixed when you are less busy with work and more engaged in "retirement", haha.

I think it only affects K4s from the newer K-Line tooling. P.S.  I think most K4s with the short tender can negotiate O36 just fine.

@RickO posted:

This gearbox is strictly a Legacy design and appeared in 2011 in these first run k4s.

From there ,it found its way into the light and heavy mike's, northerns, mountains, consolidations,pacifics articulateds etc.

Its not used in the ESE hudsons or the j3a . It is not in the small 0-6-0s either.

It’s also in the small  Legacy Berks, and the legacy Mohawks if I’m not mistaken Rick, …..I know the legacy small Berks use this design, and I have a brand new chassis I’m swapping into a KLine B&M Berk, that will get the mod as a preemptive strike…..it’s just cheap insurance if it’s new,….there’s no telling with out time, like you’ve mentioned, if it’s a chronic failure, or just certain ones are proved to fail,….

Pat

@rplst8 posted:

I think it only affects K4s from the newer K-Line tooling. P.S.  I think most K4s with the short tender can negotiate O36 just fine.

Wrong, some of the H10’s as Rick has mentioned have the same issue…..

Pat

Since this is a design introduced with Legacy engines, I have not read/heard of any other legacy engines having this problem.  Could it be that only the K4s had an issue with too much slop in the gears?  I would think if the slop issue was that bad and prolific , there would be reports of problems with other locs.  It would be great if Lionel could confirm they fixed the slop issue.  Simple spacers in the gear box could solve this issue during manufacturing. @Dave Olson

@CAPPilot posted:

I have two that I run double headed, and I hope that helps reduce the strain on them so they last longer.  At least there is a fix.  Thanks Pat!

I can’t see double heading them preventing a failure…..the condition exists due to the way the bushing on the back side of the worm wheel rides up against the intermediate shaft bushing that is pressed into the gear box casting ( ie; the frame) …..the worm wheel’s bushing is being ground against that shaft bushing, ……both are so tiny, they can’t help but to wear one another out, and then the gear and the shaft walk to one side, and thus resulting in the worm wheel and the worm gear not making solid contact, but rather just on the edge, …..then it’s curtains….if the damage isn’t severe, the fix will restore it, but if the damage to the worm wheel is severe, then the chassis is scrap,…….for comparison, I looked at MTH’s compound gear box design used in Premier articulates, ….it’s nothing like the Lionel version,…..way more robust, with giant bushings to keep the idler centered,…..

Pat

@Joe Fermani posted:

Since this is a design introduced with Legacy engines, I have not read/heard of any other legacy engines having this problem.  Could it be that only the K4s had an issue with too much slop in the gears?  I would think if the slop issue was that bad and prolific , there would be reports of problems with other locs.  It would be great if Lionel could confirm they fixed the slop issue.  Simple spacers in the gear box could solve this issue during manufacturing. @Dave Olson

It may very well be only this particular model exhibits the issues in more than low numbers, ……I believe John has fixed a few with new chassis, but only time will tell if they fail,….as far as other models, I believe Rick O has shown us his H10 with gear box issues……we do not know if this is going to be a chronic issue or not,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

……the Lionel Legacy K4 has an issue with the gear box going into self destruct mode…..the compound gear box has an idler gear arrangement that walks away from the worm gear on the motor…

Why, why, why, would they do this?!

A 30c bushing could have prevented all of this.

Or a 10c c-clip on the side of the intermediate shaft that has the small output gear. 

My physics is escaping me at the moment, but if I remember the right hand rule correctly all they had to do was put the output gear on the other side and shift everything right.  Then the torque force would have kept the intermediate gear against the final gear when running forward.

I wonder if this is why the KLine models had the motor output shaft rear facing.

@harmonyards posted:

Wrong, some of the H10’s as Rick has mentioned have the same issue…..

Sorry I should have been more specific.  I meant of all the K4s out there.

@rplst8 posted:

I wonder if this is why the KLine models had the motor output shaft rear facing.

The Legacy K4 has the motor shaft rear facing, that's why it's a problem!   It looks just like the K-Line when you take them apart.

Most steamers have the shaft facing forward, don't know why they did this, it appears they copied the K-line chassis.

@harmonyards posted:

It’s a known issue; ……the Lionel Legacy K4 has an issue with the gear box going into self destruct mode…..the compound gear box has an idler gear arrangement that walks away from the worm gear on the motor……I’ve developed a fairly simple solution that’s non-invasive, and will have good longevity. The new fix requires no wheel pulling, no gear pressing, no harm to the chassis, …..one small hole must be drilled into the side of the gear tower,……the fix is a brass flat bar stock, with a U shaped bushing to cut down on parasitic drag of the flat bar up against the gear it’s guiding towards center……I believe we’re just touching the tip of the iceberg with issues like this on Legacy gear boxes that have a similar construction and compound gear arrangements…..this fix will apply to more models than just the K4, that I’m sure of,…..thanks to David Ross, for sending his K4 that had completely lost gear engagement and is now out of field testing and doing fine. Also, thanks to  John Will sent a test sample that allowed me to have more than one chassis with the same problem….The fix can only be applied to those locomotives that have not totally destroyed the top worm wheel, or totally wallered out the intermediate shaft beyond repair ….it can however, be a preemptive first strike package, in other words, new or lightly used engines will benefit from the fix, as this part will keep the gear centered. Testing shows zero additional wear using Mobil 1 synthetic grease in the gear box…test was conducted 16 hours, two straight 8 hour runs, back to back,…as of this printing, I do not have an infield solution, as the parts will have to be custom made for each application, and the measured offset is different between examples, so as of this moment, chassis will have to come to my shop for fitment ……I think I covered everything I can think of, and I’m sure we’ll discuss this more on this thread,….

Pat

Funny I did the same thing with brass washers with a slot/flat cut into them. The flat spot stops them from trying to spin and they can float allowing for some movement.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The Legacy K4 has the motor shaft rear facing, that's why it's a problem!   It looks just like the K-Line when you take them apart.

Most steamers have the shaft facing forward, don't know why they did this, it appears they copied the K-line chassis.

Ohhh.  So did the KLine models have this issue?

@rplst8 posted:

Ohhh.  So did the KLine models have this issue?

Not that I know of.  Don't know for sure what was different, I haven't been inside the K-Line K4 for a few years.

@rplst8 posted:

Ohhh.  So did the KLine models have this issue?

I wonder if K-Line had the motor spinning the other way and thus forcing the gear over where it couldn't go far?

@rplst8 posted:

I wonder if this is why the KLine models had the motor output shaft rear facing.

Lionel Legacy K4s use the same motor setup as K Line.

However, I thought it was discussed previously.

That the extra gears is a Lionel design that Lionel engineered into the K Line chassis, and has since engineered into every other locomotive regardless of tooling. I believe the 2-10-10-2's have two of these gearboxes.

I guess we may even see some  "Legacy equpped" MTH locomotives in the future with extra gears as well.

@ThatGuy posted:

Funny I did the same thing with brass washers with a slot/flat cut into them. The flat spot stops them from trying to spin and they can float allowing for some movement.

You certainly can do it with washers,….I’m guessing you slotted the washers so they sort of snap over the intermediate shaft?…if so, what happens when they fall off?….😳

Pat

@RickO posted:

Lionel Legacy K4s use the same motor setup as K Line.

However, the extra gears is a Lionel design that Lionel engineered into the K Line chassis, and every other locomotive regardless of tooling.

I guess we may even see some  "Legacy equpped" MTH locomotives in the future with extra gears as well.

I sure hope they don’t mess with the MTH gear boxes Rick, those things are built like tanks…..I just don’t see any MTH Premier engines in steam show up with gear box issues….

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I wonder if K-Line had the motor spinning the other way and thus forcing the gear over where it couldn't go far?

This could be a one off Lionel QC issue defect with this model, that will never happen again or we can hope.
I have never heard of any Kline model having this issue.  Not the Berks, mikados K4, or the Hudsons.  All had the same setup with the forward facing motor/gearbox

@harmonyards posted:

I sure hope they don’t mess with the MTH gear boxes Rick, those things are built like tanks…..I just don’t see any MTH Premier engines in steam show up with gear box issues….

Pat

Well, Lionel ruined their own gearboxes, so whats to stop them.

@superwarp1 posted:

I have never heard of any Kline model having this issue.  Not the Berks, mikados K4, or the Hudsons.  All had the same setup with the forward facing motor/gearbox

You have at least one of the K Line Berks right Gary? I don't think K Line used the idler gears in their gearbox. I think its the traditional worm and axle gear setup.

Shine a flashlight behind the powered axle and look for the extra bushing and shaft.

The complaint with k Line has always been the lack of pulling power and potential motor burn up. Maybe the extra gears was Lionels way of countering this?

@RickO posted:

You have at least one of the K Line Berks right Gary? I don't think K Line used the idler gears in their gearbox. I think its the traditional worm and axle gear setup.

Shine a flashlight behind the powered axle and look for the extra bushing and shaft.

The complaint with k Line has alaways been the lack of pulling power and potential motor burn up. Maybe the extra gears was Lionels way of countering this.

My guess is they wanted to change the overall gear ratio that better matched Legacys ability to match speeds engine to engine.

Pete

@superwarp1 posted:

This could be a one off Lionel QC issue defect with this model, that will never happen again or we can hope.
I have never heard of any Kline model having this issue.  Not the Berks, mikados K4, or the Hudsons.  All had the same setup with the forward facing motor/gearbox

Correct, the original Kline’s do not have the compound gear box found on their Legacy remakes of the KLine tooling …..KLine had only an axle gear, and a worm on the motor shaft ….here’s a stock KLine B&M chassis,….note single gear…

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

You certainly can do it with washers,….I’m guessing you slotted the washers so they sort of snap over the intermediate shaft?…if so, what happens when they fall off?….😳

Pat

Oversized so I cut a flat spot this is locked in with the cover they can move but act as a shim

@ThatGuy posted:

Oversized so I cut a flat spot this is locked in with the cover they can move but act as a shim

Did you take pictures of your repair?….this is the thread to share ideas…..let’s see what you did…..

Pat

I will have to get the engine and take some pictures, I sold it off but the purchaser is a friend

After seeing this thread and the fact that the Legacy Mohawks might have a problem I took a look at mine. I think you can cross that one off the list as mine appears to have a spacer next to the gear. It begs the question were they all supposed to get a spacer???

They cheesed out on the drive gear though. Rather than pressing the worm on a smooth shaft with bearings on the smooth shaft they simply machined down the teeth to fit the bearing. Come on Lionel!!

Pete

Thankfully we can cross off the Mohawks, ….hopefully others too,….I’ll open up a legacy Berk ( former KLine tooling ) and post up here too,…..we can use this thread as the definitive guide on Legacy gear boxes, and if we all see any potential issues, we’ll develop a fix….

Pat

Ugh, good for one thing, bad for another(on the Mohawk's that is).

This is a great thread, Pat!

I just bought another of the LEGACY Light Mikado's, and I love it, but a look inside into one of their gearboxes would be incredibly helpful since Lionel has made a TON of these engines since 2011 (both Light and Heavy variants) and I know a lot of other operators who get a lot of mileage out of them, too.

It's amazing how much a little part saves the entire machine in the long run.

The legacy Berks ( former KLine tools )  show the same set up as Pete’s pics of the Mohawk, ….a generous bushing on the open side, …..seems maybe Lionel saw the writing on the wall after the K4s …..so we can cross off the Legacy Berks, ….

Pat

@Mikado 4501 posted:

This is a great thread, Pat!

I just bought another of the LEGACY Light Mikado's, and I love it, but a look inside into one of their gearboxes would be incredibly helpful since Lionel has made a TON of these engines since 2011 (both Light and Heavy variants) and I know a lot of other operators who get a lot of mileage out of them, too.

It's amazing how much a little part saves the entire machine in the long run.

If the one you bought is out of warranty, and you don’t mind opening it up, share your findings with the rest of the class, and this whole thread will be the who’s who of what’s good and bad,…..feel free to contribute ….extra points for pictures,…😁…..points redeemable for likes,….that’s about it though…..

Pat

I guess there will/already is a list of gearbox problem engines? I know Rick had listed a few on one of the gearbox topics I think a few years ago. Maybe I should get some of my engine model numbers on a list so they can be either confirmed or crossed off.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I guess there will/already is a list of gearbox problem engines? I know Rick had listed a few on one of the gearbox topics I think a few years ago. Maybe I should get some of my engine model numbers on a list so they can be either confirmed or crossed off.

Well, we can use this thread as a definitive guide with recent offerings ( hopefully with pics ) if Rick has a thread, we can link it here as well, ….the more info the better….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Well, we can use this thread as a definitive guide with recent offerings ( hopefully with pics ) if Rick has a thread, we can link it here as well, ….the more info the better….

Pat

I just know that I have a bunch of K4'S, several Mike's, an H10, and probably something else in the mix that may have been mentioned elsewhere. I know Rick had said something recently about an engine that may have been from the 2020 catalog, but don't remember what it was.

So which Lionel engines will need the fix?

These are only Legacy engines with a Lionel redesign of the K-Line gearbox?

Which engines with this Lionel redesign are ok?

Good thread, sharing of knowledge is one of the things that make the OGR Forum great.

Dave, clearly this gear box is here to stay…..so having a thread that lumps all the locomotives on one list, good or bad, will be very helpful to all,….then if any need some help, we can discuss it on here as well, and keep those machines on the rails where they belong,….😉

Pat

@BobbyD posted:

So which Lionel engines will need the fix?

These are only Legacy engines with a Lionel redesign of the K-Line gearbox?

Which engines with this Lionel redesign are ok?

Good thread, sharing of knowledge is one of the things that make the OGR Forum great.

A list will be compiled, but the first K4'S from I think 2010 are where it starts. Suspect any of the light and heavy Mike's that followed that and maybe the 2017 catalog offerings(I think that was th next bunch of K4'S), Mike's may have been another offering in 2016 I think.

@BobbyD posted:

So which Lionel engines will need the fix?

These are only Legacy engines with a Lionel redesign of the K-Line gearbox?

Which engines with this Lionel redesign are ok?

Good thread, sharing of knowledge is one of the things that make the OGR Forum great.

So far, the only one exhibiting an issue is the Legacy K4s….that one has a proven failure rate…..although, the thread is young, and hence I say “so far” ….so stay tuned, and keep reading….we need others to take a peek at their legacy offerings and verify if they see the potential issue, or if they’re good to go…..perhaps on the opening thread post I can edit it to have a list of those that need no worry, and those that would require an inspection and possibly a remedy….however, I’m open to suggestions on where and when a list could evolve …..

Pat

Please don't say the Polar RR K-4 Pat!

  Lots of good info here. I don’t know a lot of the mechanics on these engines. A few years back Lionel started making engines with back driveable gears. Was that the reason for the change on K-Line engines and some of their own designs ?  I have 4 of the Legacy Mikes and they have it. I have 3 versions of Mohawks but I don’t think the first run version had it.

Thumbsup harmonyards! I have owned the K-line K4 for over 10 years w/o a problem. When a previous thread posted discussing this frustrating problem, it raised concerns about my engine becoming a shelf queen in the future. Your diagnosis and fix for the Legacy models with the problem is welcome news for K-line owners like me and the Legacy owners.

Okay, so since the Superbowl was over, and I was pumped up, I popped over to the Lionel site to look through the catalogs. I compiled a list of all the numbers from 2011-2020(since 2011 was the first K4 offering). They are broken down by class, listed model number, railroad, road number, conventional where applicable, and year released. I don't know if all on this list are issues, but I figured I would throw together what I saw. I don't know about the 2015 V2 Consolidation's as I don't know what was used for the gearboxes since I don't have any of those nor heard anything about them. I did list USRA Pacific's as I don't know about those either. Maybe someone can attest to how well they run.

So, here is the list. There are a lot of Mike's

K4's Design Flaw Fail!
6-11264 PRR 1361 2011 fail
6-11265 PRR 1330 2011 fail
6-11266 PRR 1361 conventional 2011 fail
6-11327 PRR 3667 2011 fail
6-11329 PRR 3678 2011 fail
6-11319 Tuscan PRR 5409 2013 fail
6-11320 Tuscan PRR 5436 conventional 2013 fail
6-84116 PRR 5432 LHT 2016 fail
6-84115 PRR 5385 LHT 2016 fail
6-84816 PRR Broadway Limited 5493 2017 fail
1922030 PRR W.G. Harding Funeral 3750 2018 fail

Mike's
6-11278 WP 322 2011 fail
6-11279 WP 327 2011 fail
6-11280 B&O 4507 2011 fail
6-11281 B&O 451 conventional 2011 fail
6-11286 RI 2302 2011 fail
6-11287 RI 2305 conventional 2011 fail
6-11288 T&P 552 2011 fail
6-11289 T&P 557 conventional 2011 fail
6-11282 GN 3125 2011 fail
6-11284 MP 1310 2011 fail
6-11255 C&O 1062 2012 fail
6-11256 NH 3021 2012 fail
6-11257 PRR 8631 2012 fail
6-11258 Southern 4501(Green) 2012 fail
6-11259 UP 2840 2012 fail
6-11260 RG 1207 2012 fail
6-11261 DM&IR 1305 2012 fail
6-11262 Erie 3007 2012 fail
6-81182 L&N 1757 2014 fail
6-81184 P&WV 1152 2014 fail
6-81185 C of NJ 845 2014 fail
6-81186 Frisco 4126 2014 fail
6-81187 C&IM 551 2014 fail
6-81188 NYC 9506 2014 fail
6-81192 GN 3148 2014 fail
6-88179 Pilot 2014 fail
6-81183 MP 1496 2015 fail
6-81181 Southern 4866 2015 fail
6-81189 CB&Q 5509 2015 fail
6-81038 MR 8693 2015 fail
6-81191 Erie 3207 2015 fail
6-81190 WP 334 2015 fail
6-81193 W&LE 6012 2015 fail
6-81180 Black Unlettered 2015 fail
6-81194 NPR 689 2015 fail
6-84532 NPR 587 2017 fail
6-84466 GTW 3734 2017 fail
6-84467 MC 624 2017 fail
6-84468 NYC 5187 2017 fail
6-84469 PRR 9630 2017 fail
6-84470 Southern 4758 2017 fail
6-84465 B&O 4500 2017 fail
6-84471 UP 2537 2017 fail
2131310 ACL 823 2020 fail
2131330 GTW 4070 2020 fail
2131320 Georgia 300 2020 fail
2131340 L&HR 83 2020 fail
2131350 Monon 554 2020 fail
2131360 Frisco 4003 2020 fail
2131370 Southern 4501(Black) 2020 fail
2131380 Wabash 2202 2020 fail

USRA Chassis different from K4 design motor in Firebox connected to worm/gearbox with shaft
Pacific's
6-11338 Alton Limited 657 2012 Pass
6-11335 Blue Comet 832 2012 Pass
6-11334 Cresent Limited 1393 2012 Pass
6-11423 Blue Comet 833 2012 Pass
6-85170 A&WP 290 2018 Pass
6-85171 B&O 5300 2018 Pass
6-85172 R&N 425 2018 Pass
6-85173 NP 2256 2018 Pass
6-85174 Southern 1372 2018 Pass
6-85175 Halloween 1031 2018 Pass

All Pass for 2021 offerings

2122070 Asa Packer Set Lehigh Valley #2023 2021
2122080 Cardinals Set NYC #4899 2021
2122170 Santa Fe Valley Flyer #1369 2021
2131240 Atlantic Coast Line #1504 2021
2131250 GM&O #5296 2021
2131260 Great Northern #1385 2021
2131270 M-K-T #411 2021
2131280 Nickel Plate #168 2021
2131290 Southern Pacific #611 2021
2131300 Union Pacific #3218 2021
2131660 B&O #5236 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021
2131670 Delaware, Lacakawanna & Western #1133 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021
2131680 Louisville & Nashville #280 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021
2131690 Monon #444 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021
2131700 New York Central #3330 MR. Muffin's Trains 2021

H10's
6-84953 PRR Coal Hauler 1773 2018 fail
6-84948 PRR 1288 2018 fail
6-84949 PRSL 6072 2018 fail
6-84951 Bellefonte Central 2018 fail
6-85386 Pennsy Lines West 7109 2018 fail
6-84950 LI 109 2018 fail
6-84952 Weathered PRR 3529 2018 fail
6-85387 Western Allegheny 85 2018 fail

I can edit the list to take stuff off if we need to.

@harmonyards posted:

If the one you bought is out of warranty, and you don’t mind opening it up, share your findings with the rest of the class, and this whole thread will be the who’s who of what’s good and bad,…..feel free to contribute ….extra points for pictures,…😁…..points redeemable for likes,….that’s about it though…..

Pat

Unfortunately (at least in this particular case), mine still has a good year or so before the warranty runs out since I bought it from an authorized dealer (Rider's in Flint, MI), and I don't want to risk meddling with it - at least not for now.

For those who are brave and are able to, though, you've got a lot of Mikes to choose to open and check.

Lionel cataloged the Lights in 2011, 2012, 2017, and most recently 2020 - the one I just got is from the 2020 batch.

The Heavy ones were only 2014 and 2015. (Shocked Lionel hasn't rerun this version yet with Bluetooth)

There's also the brass Hybrid Santa Fe model from 2017-18 that used the same chassis and running gear.

That's a lot of locomotives using the same base in less than a decade when you think about it!

I have a brand new 3750 from the Harding funeral set. Hopefully they fixed this by the time this was released.  I'm away for the week on travel for work, but when I get back home I'll tear into it.  For science!

I'm wondering if the replacement drive blocks come with a "patch" to prevent it from happening again.

@rplst8 posted:

I have a brand new 3750 from the Harding funeral set. Hopefully they fixed this by the time this was released.  I'm away for the week on travel for work, but when I get back home I'll tear into it.  For science!

I'm wondering if the replacement drive blocks come with a "patch" to prevent it from happening again.

I’m not sure they’re even aware their is/was an issue……so yes, if you can pop open your gear box cover and pull the shaft out and snap a couple pics, then the info can be on here for everyone to know…..

Pat

@Mikado 4501 posted:

Unfortunately (at least in this particular case), mine still has a good year or so before the warranty runs out since I bought it from an authorized dealer (Rider's in Flint, MI), and I don't want to risk meddling with it - at least not for now.

For those who are brave and are able to, though, you've got a lot of Mikes to choose to open and check.

Lionel cataloged the Lights in 2011, 2012, 2017, and most recently 2020 - the one I just got is from the 2020 batch.

The Heavy ones were only 2014 and 2015. (Shocked Lionel hasn't rerun this version yet with Bluetooth)

There's also the brass Hybrid Santa Fe model from 2017-18 that used the same chassis and running gear.

That's a lot of locomotives using the same base in less than a decade when you think about it!

It would be ideal to possibly have an example from at least every batch on this thread ( at some point, anyways) to put this to bed once & for all,…..not only to educate all of us, but also if the need comes up for a fix such as the K4s …..

Pat

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4, Thanks for taking the time to compile that list.

russ

@pennsyfanman posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4, Thanks for taking the time to compile that list.

russ

No problem. The list doesn't necessarily mean that everything on there has the gearbox problem, but it is a possibility.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

No problem. The list doesn't necessarily mean that everything on there has the gearbox problem, but it is a possibility.

Exactly!!….the idea of the thread is to eliminate the good ones, identify any possible bad ones, make note of it, and develop the work around,…..that’ll put all of this to bed…😉

Pat

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Okay, so since the Superbowl was over, and I was pumped up, I popped over to the Lionel site to look through the catalogs. I compiled a list of all the numbers from 2011-2020(since 2011 was the first K4 offering). They are broken down by class, listed model number, railroad, road number, conventional where applicable, and year released.

So, here is the list. There are a lot of Mike's

K4's
6-11264 PRR 1361 2011
6-11265 PRR 1330 2011
6-11266 PRR 1361 conventional 2011
6-11327 PRR 3667 2011
6-11329 PRR 3678 2011
6-11319 Tuscan PRR 5409 2013
6-11320 Tuscan PRR 5436 conventional 2013
6-84116 PRR 5432 LHT 2016
6-84115 PRR 5385 LHT 2016
6-84816 PRR Broadway Limited 5493 2017
1922030 PRR W.G. Harding Funeral 3750

I can edit the list to take stuff off if we need to.

Are the Polar Railroad 11330 Legacy and 11331 Conventional K-4's included also?  Will Lionel stand behind these?

@BobbyD posted:

Are the Polar Railroad 11330 Legacy and 11331 Conventional K-4's included also?  Will Lionel stand behind these?

Hmm, I don't know how I missed the 11331. 11330 is O Gauge whole 11331 is scale. I don't know if it is the same gearing or if the O Gauge is smaller. It is possible that any of the conventional engines could be geared differently than any of the Legacy offerings, the thing being that it would have to get looked at to determine that. I don't have either of those so I wouldn't be able to say.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Hmm, I don't know how I missed the 11331. 11330 is O Gauge whole 11331 is scale. I don't know if it is the same gearing or if the O Gauge is smaller. It is possible that any of the conventional engines could be geared differently than any of the Legacy offerings, the thing being that it would have to get looked at to determine that. I don't have either of those so I wouldn't be able to say.

Thanks. They are "K-Line" tooling engines. Have a friend with the Santa Fe Hybrid. He's not gonna be happy if it has this issue! :-)

@BobbyD posted:

Thanks. They are "K-Line" tooling engines. Have a friend with the Santa Fe Hybrid. He's not gonna be happy if it has this issue! :-)

We’re not seeing this widespread as we first thought, …..so far only the early Legacy K4 has an issue,….let’s not have mass panic attacks just yet,…..right now this is just a fact finding mission,……no call to arms just yet,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

We’re not seeing this widespread as we first thought, …..so far only the early Legacy K4 has an issue,….let’s not have mass panic attacks just yet,…..right now this is just a fact finding mission,……no call to arms just yet,….

Pat

Which K4 was it that Rick O had, one of the long haul tenders? I know he said one of the Mike's and the H10 which was in his video.

@harmonyards posted:

We’re not seeing this widespread as we first thought, …..so far only the early Legacy K4 has an issue,…

Pat

Hi Pat,
When you say "early Legacy K4,"  that doesn't mean the pre-war version, I'm assuming??  Just early off of the line?  If I/we take a picture of what we have, can you identify from the pic if it's a possible lemon?

Thanks!  You're an awesome ambassador of this hobby.  We're lucky...

@Larry Mullen posted:

Hi Pat,
When you say "early Legacy K4,"  that doesn't mean the pre-war version, I'm assuming??  Just early off of the line?  If I/we take a picture of what we have, can you identify from the pic if it's a possible lemon?

Thanks!  You're an awesome ambassador of this hobby.  We're lucky...

Early as in the first Legacy versions.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The Legacy K4 has the motor shaft rear facing, that's why it's a problem!   It looks just like the K-Line when you take them apart.

Most steamers have the shaft facing forward, don't know why they did this, it appears they copied the K-line chassis.

Does this mean the K-line steam engines also have this problem?

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Does this mean the K-line steam engines also have this problem?

No, they’re built differently than the Legacy models…..what’s confusing is when Lionel obtained the KLine tooling, they modified the existing gear box on the KLine tooling for Legacy controls……this is where the problem arose…..as of right now, the only known for sure issue is with 1st Gen Legacy K4s ……

Pat

I popped open my 2019 run of the Legacy ATSF 3751 class Northern to check the gearbox. I took it apart to lube it when I first bought it but forgot what it looked like. There is a spacer next to the worm wheel to keep it centered. You can see it to the right of the worm shaft in this photo.

It appears that the issue of the worm wheel shifting may be limited to the early Legacy K4. So either the K4 gearbox was designed without the spacer to keep the worm wheel centered or the manufacture forgot to add it when assembling. One would have to open more former K-Line tooled locomotives, with the forward facing small 385 style motor with the worm pressed to the motor, to see if Lionel corrected the gearbox issue in the later runs.

But, based on this thread, it sounds like the Legacy steam equipped with this multiple gear setup in their gearbox and a worm shaft separate from the motor aren't affected by this issue. So far the gearboxes on these locomotives have had a spacer to keep the worm wheel centered under the worm shaft.

Great work Pete & Lou, thanks for the pics and the confirmation,…..so far, the Legacy Mohawks, Legacy Northerns, and the Legacy Berks ( KLine rebuilt Berks) are all ok….I’m not seeing anything that looks like it might crap out in any of those pics…..no??…

Pat

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Which K4 was it that Rick O had, one of the long haul tenders? I know he said one of the Mike's and the H10 which was in his video.

I had the first Legacy k4 from 2011. The shaft actually started to oblong the bushing on one side of the chassis.

That's the first heavy Mike in my video but the open gearbox is the H10. I haven't checked the heavy Mike yet , but on the h10 you can see the shaft shifting inward and outward. The heavy Mike does not have this thrust play in the shaft so I'm hoping it's o.k.

I can't add a spacer to the h10 from the bottom. After seeing the photos from the "experts" I may  have to pop the top of the gearbox.

Would a delrin washer from the local hardware store be adequate?

To install any type of washer you would have to press the shaft at least half way out.  Doable but would require a fair amount of disassembly.

Pete

@RickO posted:

I had the first Legacy k4 from 2011. The shaft actually started to oblong the bushing on one side of the chassis.

That's the first heavy Mike in my video but the open gearbox is the H10. I haven't checked the heavy Mike yet , but on the h10 you can see the shaft shifting inward and outward. The heavy Mike does not have this thrust play in the shaft so I'm hoping it's o.k.

I can't add a spacer to the h10 from the bottom. After seeing the photos from the "experts" I may  have to pop the top of the gearbox.

Would a delrin washer from the local hardware store be adequate?

Rick, so the H10 is a possibly a trouble maker?…..I recall you having an issue,…I assume you haven’t pulled the shell off?…as far as a plastic washer, ….that might be a band aid fix IMO, ….I’d like to develop permanent repeatable solutions for these locomotives so none are left behind,….as with the early Legacy K4s, that fix is going to be a longevity repair…..can you post up the pics you took of that model?..I recall you had some pics?…no??….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Great work Pete & Lou, thanks for the pics and the confirmation,…..so far, the Legacy Mohawks, Legacy Northerns, and the Legacy Berks ( KLine rebuilt Berks) are all ok….I’m not seeing anything that looks like it might crap out in any of those pics…..no??…

Pat

I don't see anything that looks like it'll fail under normal use. The multi gear setup MTH uses in it's articulated gearboxes appears a little more rugged, but not crazily so.

I still prefer the late 90s/early 2000s TMCC and MTH gearbox (all years) with the one large worm wheel, large worm shaft, and big bearings. Those things are tanks.

@harmonyards posted:

Rick, so the H10 is a possibly a trouble maker?…..I recall you having an issue,…I assume you haven’t pulled the shell off

Pat

I haven't had a problem but there is some side to side slop in there. These photos are taken after removing the bottom plate that this tooling has.  Not the best, hard to get good lighting in there. the first photo is the worm wheel all the way out. I believe this is where it is shoved when running in the forward direction. The second is with it all the way in, which of course occurs in reverse.

@RickO posted:

I haven't had a problem but there is some side to side slop in there. These photos are taken after removing the bottom plate that this tooling has.  Not the best, hard to get good lighting in there. the first photo is the worm wheel all the way out. I believe this is where it is shoved when running in the forward direction. The second is with it all the way in, which of course occurs in reverse.

Judging by those photos, …..that’s a lot…….I can see the spur gear appear, and disappear………I’d have to say by these pics, they’ll need some help….

Pat

@RickO posted:

I had the first Legacy k4 from 2011. The shaft actually started to oblong the bushing on one side of the chassis.

That's the first heavy Mike in my video but the open gearbox is the H10. I haven't checked the heavy Mike yet , but on the h10 you can see the shaft shifting inward and outward. The heavy Mike does not have this thrust play in the shaft so I'm hoping it's o.k.

I can't add a spacer to the h10 from the bottom. After seeing the photos from the "experts" I may  have to pop the top of the gearbox.

Would a delrin washer from the local hardware store be adequate?

Okay, so the Heavy Mike Rick is talking about is in the 2014 offering, 6-81188 NYC 9506 2014 and the H10 is definitely in the 2018 run since that is where they come from. I'm curious though about the 2015 offering of the Consolidations that were offered.

@harmonyards posted:

Judging by those photos, …..that’s a lot…….I can see the spur gear appear, and disappear………I’d have to say by these pics, they’ll need some help….

Pat

Well Pat, it looks like my H10 will definitely be making a trip down to see you at some point in time.

@harmonyards posted:

Judging by those photos, …..that’s a lot…….I can see the spur gear appear, and disappear………I’d have to say by these pics, they’ll need some help….

Pat

From those pictures, I'd say about one more fraction of an inch and you'll have gear grindings in the bottom of the gearbox!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

From those pictures, I'd say about one more fraction of an inch and you'll have gear grindings in the bottom of the gearbox!

  

John, do you have a Lionel H10 or was it MTH?

Pat, your work is fantastic as always! If it helps at all, feel free to pop open the k-line K4 I sent you for a pitman upgrade as a comparison.

Interesting.  I 2-railed a couple K-Line locomotives when they first appeared on the scene.  I was not impressed with the gearbox at all - the worm gear was just too small.  But I used the stock gearbox, after turning things around and putting a Pittman in the firebox.  OK for light duty, like a circuit around the oval once a month.

The Museum got a 2-rail Berk directly from K-Line.  It apparently made it for a year before the worm gear failed.  One of the locals hobbed a new gear for it, and then I lost track of mainenance issues down there.  I was happy fixing things, but unwilling to endure the parking issues.

Shame - one of the nice things about 3-rail steam has always been the incredibly robust gearing.  My 763 will never ever die of gear failure.

We could use more input from DIY guys, and techs alike that can open and examine these Legacy models,….this way, at the very top of the thread on the first post, we’ll identify those models that can benefit from the fix, and have that list in an easy to understand format…..also, I can edit the title so it’s comprehensive, and easy to find in a search,…….it’d be nice to have the list in one place, rather than scoured throughout the thread,…..so if you have a legacy, ( and it’s out of warranty) and you don’t mind taking a peek like Pete & Lou did, that information will be invaluable to the thread……

Pat

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

John, do you have a Lionel H10 or was it MTH?

I have two of the newer Legacy H10's, I'll have to peek inside...

Much appreciated John.

Last I stopped by your layout, you had one of the 2011-12 run of the light Mikes. If you could take a peak inside that, that’d be fantastic!

Is there an approximate runtime before these gear boxes would go bad? And, is anyone performing the fix, and if so about how much would it cost?

@Paul Kallus posted:

Is there an approximate runtime before these gear boxes would go bad? And, is anyone performing the fix, and if so about how much would it cost?

Going bad would entirely depend on turns and how long you would run them for. I think Rick said the more turning involved the more the wearing will start, but I forget which way. Regardless, it will wear with more turns back and forth definitely.

@Larry Mullen posted:

Hi Pat,
When you say "early Legacy K4,"  that doesn't mean the pre-war version, I'm assuming??  Just early off of the line?  If I/we take a picture of what we have, can you identify from the pic if it's a possible lemon?

I think he specifically includes the PRR Pre-war model, I have one with that gearbox, the Pennsylvania Prewar LEGACY Scale 4-6-2 K-4 #3667.  I've already swapped the chassis of the identical model for a customer for this issue, that's why Pat has an extra broken chassis!  I keep a spare K4 chassis in the closet, I've already done a few of these over the last few years.

Are we starting a list of known problem models?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Are we starting a list of known problem models?

I have popped a list of what was considered the possible list on page two John. We haven't really started to compile enough information other than the 2011 K4's with the gearbox issue and the H10 being another potential issue. Rick noted only that the new gearbox design can be noted by looking through the spokes but that doesn't tell what is going on inside of course as Pat and Pete pointed out that some have been modified with the spacer/bracket.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Are we starting a list of known problem models?

That’s what I want this thread to be,….I’ve got the two written down, …the early Legacy K4s, and the Legacy H10,……we’ve excluded a few models, as well, rather than cloud up the list, if it ain’t on the list, it’s good to go,…..I need to learn about the other K4 offerings, like the one in the funeral train set, etc,…..I’d like to do it by item number, so it’s clear as a bell, with out any gray areas…

Pat

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I have popped a list of what was considered the possible list on page two John. We haven't really started to compile enough information other than the 2011 K4's with the gearbox issue and the H10 being another potential issue. Rick noted only that the new gearbox design can be noted by looking through the spokes but that doesn't tell what is going on inside of course as Pat and Pete pointed out that some have been modified with the spacer/bracket.

What’s the last K4 offered Dave?….Legacy scale of course,…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

What’s the last K4 offered Dave?….Legacy scale of course,…..

Pat

The last one was in 2018 with the long haul tender that headed the 1930 Broadway Limited set, item 6-84816. I think this is also the only one that was included with Bluetooth as of writing.

Thanks Thomas, ….peeking at Dave’s list ( thank you Dave!) I’d say it’s safe to assume all of the 2011 run would be suspect models for problems…..now, what we need to see is all the others,….so we need examples from 2013 to 2018 ….again, I do not want wide spread panic, …..y’all know how this forum can roll,….next thing we know, the sky will be falling……

Pat

@Mikado 4501 posted:

The last one was in 2018 with the long haul tender that headed the 1930 Broadway Limited set, item 6-84816. I think this is also the only one that was included with Bluetooth as of writing.

The Funeral set is after this. However, I have yet to confirm it is missing a bushing like the early ones.

Lionel item # is: 1922030.

@rplst8 posted:

The Funeral set is after this. However, I have yet to confirm it is missing a bushing like the early ones.

Lionel item # is: 1922030.

Can you open yours up?..

Pat

@rplst8 posted:

The Funeral set is after this. However, I have yet to confirm it is missing a bushing like the early ones.

Lionel item # is: 1922030.

Here’s the deal, …if you can open yours up, and it’s the same as the 2011 run, then it’s game, set, match, the entire line of K4’s is now suspect to failure, …..if you open yours up, and find a thick spacer next to the worm wheel, opposite the spur gear, then we know we have to back up to find where they made the change……see my point??…

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Thanks Thomas, ….peeking at Dave’s list ( thank you Dave!) I’d say it’s safe to assume all of the 2011 run would be suspect models for problems…..now, what we need to see is all the others,….so we need examples from 2013 to 2018 ….again, I do not want wide spread panic, …..y’all know how this forum can roll,….next thing we know, the sky will be falling……

Pat

I have both Long Haul Tenders and the Broadway Limited. I just hope I can open them up without cracking stuff to pieces. Fat chance getting it done during the week, it'll have to wait until sometime Saturday. I have the later Mike's offered, the NYC & PRR I think from 2016 as well as the latest ones, I think 4501 in black from 2018?? Where's that list?

@harmonyards posted:

That’s what I want this thread to be,….I’ve got the two written down, …the early Legacy K4s, and the Legacy H10,……we’ve excluded a few models, as well, rather than cloud up the list, if it ain’t on the list, it’s good to go,…..I need to learn about the other K4 offerings, like the one in the funeral train set, etc,…..I’d like to do it by item number, so it’s clear as a bell, with out any gray areas…

Pat

Are we already sure of the H10?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I have both Long Haul Tenders and the Broadway Limited. I just hope I can open them up without cracking stuff to pieces. Fat chance getting it done during the week, it'll have to wait until sometime Saturday. I have the later Mike's offered, the NYC & PRR I think from 2016 as well as the latest ones, I think 4501 in black from 2018?? Where's that list?

Dave, if you’re not comfortable opening them up, don’t do it, …..to be sure there’s plenty of techs and DIY guys that can open one up…..I don’t want folks wrecking their stuff….

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Are we already sure of the H10?

Judging by what Rick pictured, I’d have to say yes at the very moment,……however, it can be subject to change if we can get one opened up,…..Rick only peeked through the base plate,…..it’d be nice to see that idler shaft from the top view…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Judging by what Rick pictured, I’d have to say yes at the very moment,……however, it can be subject to change if we can get one opened up,…..Rick only peeked through the base plate,…..it’d be nice to see that idler shaft from the top view…..

Pat

I went back and reviewed the thread, and I have to say you're right.  I forgot that was the H10, so apparently I have two more than need a "fix".  This is getting absurd!

I liked the sound of the shim you just drop in with the flat side that rides against the gearbox cover to keep it from rotating and/or falling off.  That would be a simple repair.  Drilling holes in the side of the gearbox, OTOH, is a bit more tricky...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I went back and reviewed the thread, and I have to say you're right.  I forgot that was the H10, so apparently I have two more than need a "fix".  This is getting absurd!

I liked the sound of the shim you just drop in with the flat side that rides against the gearbox cover to keep it from rotating and/or falling off.  That would be a simple repair.  Drilling holes in the side of the gearbox, OTOH, is a bit more tricky...

I get it, and I wanted it to be an infield repair as well,…however, by the math, both the sample you had sent, and the first test rig sent by David Ross, there is not going to be a one size fits all solution…..the variance between the two samples was .018…..that’s a lot for a one size fits all solution,……popping a hole in the side of the gear box is child’s play for me,…..so the easiest remedy is a one piece arm that’s both trapped from the gear box cover ( or motor mount if you will ) and a screw to further lock it in place…..the variable is the shim installed on the end of the arm, that’s where I make up the math…….and further, having a bushing on the end of the arm, that rides up against the shaft assembly lessons the drag to the point you don’t even realize it’s there…….David Ross’s showed up with total disengagement, but only had wear similar to the sample you had sent, …..the arm installation put the gear back in the middle, and all is well, ….heck, the worm gear doesn’t even come close to the worn portion now………his locomotive is running well again……it seems these pups start kicking the shaft out and keep on trucking till the worm wheel eventually moves clear out of the way of the worm gear……the screw in the side of the gear box I call cheap insurance…..the part can’t fall off and jam up a gear box and more than likely wipe out a driver…..so the only suck part of this is, yeah, the chassis are gonna have to come to me for fitment, but the plus side for guys like you John, you can strip it down to nothing and send it that way……just like the poor pig you sent me for testing…..but that chassis now you can put back in service,……it will go again…..😉

Pat

So who's gonna open up one of those VL 2-10-10-2's?

I believe those have 2 of these reduction gear setups.

@RickO posted:

So who's gonna open up one of those VL 2-10-10-2's?

I believe those have 2 of these reduction gear setups.

Rick, I’d be willing to bet those will be ok,…..we’re clearly seeing an improved gear box as far back as the Legacy Berks, and up to the ATSF Northerns,……the Legacy Mohawks look good too,…..obviously they seen an issue somewhere along the lines, …but doubt we’ll ever get the story,….😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

..so the only suck part of this is, yeah, the chassis are gonna have to come to me for fitment, but the plus side for guys like you John, you can strip it down to nothing and send it that way……just like the poor pig you sent me for testing…..but that chassis now you can put back in service,……it will go again…..😉

I'm lazy, and if there's a solution that doesn't require me to totally strip the chassis and then reassemble it again, that's going to look attractive!  You end up ****ing away several hours to strip and rebuild, it turns it into a somewhat expensive job.

@harmonyards posted:

Rick, I’d be willing to bet those will be ok,…..we’re clearly seeing an improved gear box as far back as the Legacy Berks, and up to the ATSF Northerns,……the Legacy Mohawks look good too,…..obviously they seen an issue somewhere along the lines, …but doubt we’ll ever get the story,….😉

Pat

Let's hope so. My concern is that the H10 came along a few years after those 3 models. I don't have time to open the top at the moment. Maybe John will. The worm wheel stops a distance from the side of the gearbox. I wonder if there's a spacer ,but it just isn't wide enough.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm lazy, and if there's a solution that doesn't require me to totally strip the chassis and then reassemble it again, that's going to look attractive!  You end up ****ing away several hours to strip and rebuild, it turns it into a somewhat expensive job.

Technically, I’ll need to do is open the gear box, install arm, trim the bushing, locate one hole, and Ta-da…..it can be noninvasive …..sounds like the mail man does most of the work,….I just can’t see cut washers, plastic bread bag clips, etc. being a longevity fix, ….but, …..to each his own!….😉

Pat

@RickO posted:

Let's hope so. My concern is that the H10 came along a few years after those 3 models. I don't have time to open the top at the moment. Maybe John will. The worm wheel stops a distance from the side of the gearbox. I wonder if there's a spacer ,but it just isn't wide enough.

True, this is all still evolving, but if I can develop a fix for those models that otherwise would require an expensive chassis swap, with potentially the same repeat cycle, then it’s all worth it,…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

True, this is all still evolving, but if I can develop a fix for those models that otherwise would require an expensive chassis swap, with potentially the same repeat cycle, then it’s all worth it,….

And that assumes the chassis is even available!!!

@RickO posted:

So who's gonna open up one of those VL 2-10-10-2's?

I believe those have 2 of these reduction gear setups.

We could ask Bruk if he noticed when he took a look at his. @Bruk Hey Bruk, did you notice anything that is being covered here on the gearing in the 2-10-10-2?

Inside Lionel's latest Vision Line 2-10-10-2

@harmonyards posted:

Dave, if you’re not comfortable opening them up, don’t do it, …..to be sure there’s plenty of techs and DIY guys that can open one up…..I don’t want folks wrecking their stuff….

Pat

Well, I was able to do the work on the Atlantic's to tape down the wires so that they didn't rub against the motor. If I feel I can get a look, I will, if I see stuff I don't feel I can touch, I will just pop it back together. Most likely you are on the money with me not being able to have a look.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

We could ask Bruk if he noticed when he took a look at his. @Bruk Hey Bruk, did you notice anything that is being covered here on the gearing in the 2-10-10-2?

Inside Lionel's latest Vision Line 2-10-10-2

Well, I was able to do the work on the Atlantic's to tape down the wires so that they didn't rub against the motor. If I feel I can get a look, I will, if I see stuff I don't feel I can touch, I will just pop it back together. Most likely you are on the money with me not being able to have a look.

In no way did I mean that to be rude Dave,…heck, there’s some engines I don’t want to open up…..ever…😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

In no way did I mean that to be rude Dave,…heck, there’s some engines I don’t want to open up…..ever…😉

Pat

Pat, you weren't rude at all. My usual work ethic is much like my late Uncle Eddie's, I take a peak, see what I can see, if I can work it, I will. If things get out of hand, I tend to lose my temper(usually with much larger not so delicate equipment not trains). If I know I can't do it, it will easily be slapped back together and wait until someone tells me that what I have will need to be fixed, like my H10.

@harmonyards posted:

In no way did I mean that to be rude Dave,…heck, there’s some engines I don’t want to open up…..ever…😉

AAMOF, there are engines that I don't want to open up again... EVER.  The Legacy 6-11224 #460 Lindbergh Special from 2010 is one such engine.  That was one of the most crammed models I've ever had the displeasure to work on!

@RickO posted:

So who's gonna open up one of those VL 2-10-10-2's?

I believe those have 2 of these reduction gear setups.

I bet it's fine. Of the locomotives that have been opened in this thread with a large motor in the firebox, a dogbone drive shaft, and a separate worm shaft (Legacy early Lima Berkshire, Legacy NYC Mohawk, Legacy ATSF 3751 class Northern) all of them have had a bushing next to the worm wheel to center it. You can see it in my Legacy ATSF Northern:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...1#159096765317343561

I bet the new 2-10-10-2s are the same.

@harmonyards posted:

In no way did I mean that to be rude Dave,…heck, there’s some engines I don’t want to open up…..ever…😉

Pat

*Cough-Lionel Niagara-Cough*

Well I don’t know if it was on the radar but I can confirm that the new legacy Pacific’s are ok. Found the same trimmed down worm instead of a shaft going into the bearing. Also wasn’t impressed with placement of the grease. It was, as typically all bunched up next to the worm wheel, had to move it out of the way anyway to get a picture and found a spacer on the intermittent shaft. Wiggles a little but nothing crazy

SKU 2131300

PS: anyone see this size motor in a steamer before I see no Canon markings so I don’t know if that’s good or if we got something worse…

Looks like they are going back to a Buehler motor. Early on when Pittmans became unaffordable a few engines got Buehlers like the Vision 700E. The TMCC Pacifics made in the early 2000 that provided the dies for these came with big Pittmans.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Looks like they are going back to a Buehler motor. Early on when Pittmans became unaffordable a few engines got Buehlers like the Vision 700E. The TMCC Pacifics made in the early 2000 that provided the dies for these came with big Pittmans.

Pete

So far nothing has been able to touch a Pittman but maybe these Buehler’s will hold up, fingers crossed better than Canon. So far I have not had a lack of pulling power out of this pacific. It didn’t miss a beat with 35 car freight on a 3.125% grade

Considering the Vision 700E I have is still enduring well a decade after it was first released and I haven't heard of any particular issue with the Buehler's compared to the Canon's, I think they'll be alright for awhile.

@zhubl posted:

Well I don’t know if it was on the radar but I can confirm that the new legacy Pacific’s are ok. Found the same trimmed down worm instead of a shaft going into the bearing. Also wasn’t impressed with placement of the grease. It was, as typically all bunched up next to the worm wheel, had to move it out of the way anyway to get a picture and found a spacer on the intermittent shaft. Wiggles a little but nothing crazy

SKU 2031300

PS: anyone see this size motor in a steamer before I see no Cannon markings so I don’t know if that’s good or if we got something worse…

Fantastic!….thanks for taking the time to pull your locomotive apart!…..we can certainly chop off these Pacifics from being trouble makers,…..we are slowly but surely narrowing the list of good & bad…..

Pat

This is a perfect example of why this forum is so great. We have so many guys here punching above their weight class. It’s like going to a symposium. I am in awe. Thankfully, I don’t have any Lionel big steam to worry about, but, it sure is nice there’s this repository of skill and knowledge to be able to turn to.

@zhubl posted:

So far nothing has been able to touch a Pittman but maybe these Buehler’s will hold up, fingers crossed better than Cannon. So far I have not had a lack of pulling power out of this pacific. It didn’t miss a beat with 35 car freight on a 3.125% grade

Buehler  (Bühler) are good motors. Like Maxon they were originally made in Europe though I am not sure all models are still made there. Even European companies have moved some production to Asia. So far few if any failures reported in engines where they have been used.

Pete

I'd certainly be happy if they lose the Canon exploding motors and go to the Bühler motors!

@Norton posted:

Buehler  (Bühler) are good motors. Like Maxon they were originally made in Europe though I am not sure all models are still made there. Even European companies have moved some production to Asia. So far few if any failures reported in engines where they have been used.

Pete

Wasn't there some talk about these motors failing in the Vision CC2s 0-8-8-0's when pulling heavy trains?

@Bob posted:

Wasn't there some talk about these motors failing in the Vision CC2s 0-8-8-0's when pulling heavy trains?

Maybe but I don’t recall that. Good chance these particular motors are not made in Germany so all bets are off. The only thing I am aware of is comparable size motors don’t have as much torque as the Pittmans they replace, maybe 2/3rds at best.

Pete

I’d welcome the switch ( either back or forward) to Buehler……I was not impressed with the Cannons ……if they did switch unilaterally, clearly the big L  saw the writing on the wall as well,….either that, or Buehler put in a vendor bid, and just so happened to beat out Cannon,……but ain’t it a Cannon in the new 2-10-10- whatever it is ATSF monster??….perhaps they’re using both as vendors??.

Pat

@Bob posted:

Wasn't there some talk about these motors failing in the Vision CC2s 0-8-8-0's when pulling heavy trains?

It actually wasn't the motor.  I talked to a tech that worked on few CC2s when they came out.  He found the motor driver board was at fault.  It was leaking AC to the DC motor which caused it to run hot.

@Norton posted:

Maybe but I don’t recall that. Good chance these particular motors are not made in Germany so all bets are off. The only thing I am aware of is comparable size motors don’t have as much torque as the Pittmans they replace, maybe 2/3rds at best.

Pete

Here's the specs of the Buhler motor they are probably using, in case you were curious:

DC-Motor_31x51__1.13.021.3XX.pdf (buehlermotor.com)

Lionel put Buhlers in the second batch of Legacy scale PM/PE berksires. I don't know of any other roadnames got them.

Having said that, between the heft of the loco itself and the option of a long freight train or however many scale PE passenger cars one might pull. You'd think we'd hear about a cooked motor.

I own the scale PE version.its been awhile since I had the shell off. I believe there is a flywheel on each end instead of just on the output shaft for whatever reason.

Here's a picture from Lionel parts:

Back to the topic at hand. If no one beats me too it. I'll see about popping the top of the gearbox on my h10 this weekend.

@harmonyards posted:

Here’s the deal, …if you can open yours up, and it’s the same as the 2011 run, then it’s game, set, match, the entire line of K4’s is now suspect to failure, …..if you open yours up, and find a thick spacer next to the worm wheel, opposite the spur gear, then we know we have to back up to find where they made the change……see my point??…

Pat

Totally.  I”m just not home this week to do it.  Will do asap.

Very cool fellas, ….it’d be nice to put some of these questionable models to bed one way or the other…….

Pat

One question on the Mike's, the chassis should be identical (for the most part) and only the shells between light and heavy versions being the only difference? I know that when the discussion had come up about the difference between the two real life versions it came down to I think boiler length and size but the wheels, chassis and such would be the same? Does that make sense, it's not like it is the difference between a Mike and a Mountain(Mohawk) we're talking about?

Dave,

You'd be correct. The chassis between the light and heavy Mikes are identical.

The brass Hybrid Santa Fe Mikado from 2018 also uses this chassis.

Thanks to a cancelled call, I was able to grab some time to unbox and checkout my H-10. I tried to get a few photos from different angles that should hopefully help. I believe there being some variations in how these locos were constructed when delivered (mine came with the protruding tender hatch, etc.) Not sure if variations extended to the gear set up, but it might be worth getting more data points on the H-10.

There is quite a bit of slop in this loco. After being returned from Lionel, I had to reposition/align the gears for the engine to run properly. There's also a piece of shim like plastic by the motor that seems a bit small for it's purpose. I don't think there are any spacers in the gearbox itself.

It doesn't look like there's as much room for the gear to wander to the edge as there is in the K-4 gearbox.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It doesn't look like there's as much room for the gear to wander to the edge as there is in the K-4 gearbox.

Maybe so, but I've never had an engine who's gears got misaligned after shipping like this H-10 did. It was a PITA trying to get everything lined up up again to get the thing running. Prior to doing so it would run a few inches and just bind up. Hopefully I didn't knock it out of gear again now that I've opened it up! lol

I'm curious if you have seen that happen before on other locos? I assumed it was because of the new gearbox design.

@Alex W posted:

It was a PITA trying to get everything lined up up again to get the thing running. Prior to doing so it would run a few inches and just bind up. Hopefully I didn't knock it out of gear again now that I've opened it up! lol

Thanks for the tip. Maybe I'll just leave well enough alone and if it ever starts chattering I'll let Pat work his magic.

Being a smaller loco to begin with. I don't pull more than half a dozen or so cars anyway, and die cast cars are forbidden on my layout.

@Alex W posted:

Maybe so, but I've never had an engine who's gears got misaligned after shipping like this H-10 did. It was a PITA trying to get everything lined up up again to get the thing running. Prior to doing so it would run a few inches and just bind up. Hopefully I didn't knock it out of gear again now that I've opened it up! lol

I'm curious if you have seen that happen before on other locos? I assumed it was because of the new gearbox design.

Clearly that batch of H10’s will benefit from a fix similar to the K4s…..thanks for posting the pics!….any gear wander is bad IMO, and if we can stop it, let’s do it….if that gear gets onto a leading edge, and not buried where the heel & toe meet, to be sure at some point they’ll go into self destruct mode……

perhaps if Dave sees this reply, he can now start highlighting or some sort of note on his master list of locomotives he posted for us to see,……put a great big “FAIL” next to the locomotive,…..that’ll make it obvious!…😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Clearly that batch of H10’s will benefit from a fix similar to the K4s…..thanks for posting the pics!….any gear wander is bad IMO, and if we can stop it, let’s do it….if that gear gets onto a leading edge, and not buried where the heel & toe meet, to be sure at some point they’ll go into self destruct mode……

perhaps if Dave sees this reply, he can now start highlighting or some sort of note on his master list of locomotives he posted for us to see,……put a great big “FAIL” next to the locomotive,…..that’ll make it obvious!…😉

Pat

Noted Pat though I didn't do all caps, bold works just as well.

@harmonyards posted:

Clearly that batch of H10’s will benefit from a fix similar to the K4s…..thanks for posting the pics!….any gear wander is bad IMO, and if we can stop it, let’s do it….if that gear gets onto a leading edge, and not buried where the heel & toe meet, to be sure at some point they’ll go into self destruct mode……

perhaps if Dave sees this reply, he can now start highlighting or some sort of note on his master list of locomotives he posted for us to see,……put a great big “FAIL” next to the locomotive,…..that’ll make it obvious!…😉

Pat

No problem - happy to contribute. After the K4 project, let me know if you need an H10 as a test for the fix. More than willing to offer mine up - unfortunately it sits packed away most of the time these days.

Really appreciate all the work that folks like yourself, Dave, and John are doing to keep these engines running.

@Alex W posted:

No problem - happy to contribute. After the K4 project, let me know if you need an H10 as a test for the fix. More than willing to offer mine up - unfortunately it sits packed away most of the time these days.

Really appreciate all the work that folks like yourself, Dave, and John are doing to keep these engines running.

All I do is comment about things, like posts, get engines upgraded, and just remember a great many things. Sunday I just flew through the catalogs trying to get all the numbers and such. Either way the engines would have come up as we did gave an idea of the really bad ones, but we still have others that are sort of unknown as their status.

You would think that perhaps after the 2011 offerings that some things would have been found out by Lionel and corrected, but there is the problem. How are they going to know if no one is telling them. There are a good number of engines on that list, and I have very few which consist of the back part of it, not the front. If no one has a portion of the middle, essentially we are left with sleeping giants(or monsters) that we may never know about. This is why this list is important to get to the bottom of.

That being said, I don't know if any of the engines on the list were not produced. However, as longs as one in the bunch from that year, we have some sort of footprint to what it would have been. See what comes out.

Low quality video of Lionel PRR k-4  6-11328 exhibiting what I suspect is gear misalignment being discussed here.

I sent the engine to forum sponsor The Train Doctor last month hoping they could solve the issue. So far I have not

heard from them that  they have had an opportunity to evaluate  the engine. How timely is this current post. Thank you all for the great information.

@PRRMike posted:

Low quality video of Lionel PRR k-4  6-11328 exhibiting what I suspect is gear misalignment being discussed here.

Yikes! That's the same model I had.

On mine, the secondary shaft started wearing into the chassis bushing on one side. It was actually making small bronze shavings.

A real shame though, great looking k4 and one of the smoothest running locos I ever owned.

I think the K Line /Lionel legacy k4 tooling is the only one that catches the unique driver detail of the prototype. The Mth and Lionel tmcc k4 (and a half lol) just have the run of the mill spoked drivers.

Mike, it could be that they are busy and they haven't had a chance to get to look at your engine. You could check in with them maybe, as well as maybe tell them about this exact topic. Pat's solution is sensible and easy. Some others have posted about fixes for issues that have come up and those have been shared, like the Atlantic's and the loose wires inside rubbing on the motor, and let's not forget the Moguls.

Not trying to inmate frustration with the guys in Jersey, I'm sure they're busy and will get to my engine when they can.

This k-4 is probably my favorite locomotive. I am hoping it can return to the roster in good working order. And oh yea,

I have a Central Vermont mogul too.

@PRRMike posted:

Not trying to inmate frustration with the guys in Jersey, I'm sure they're busy and will get to my engine when they can.

This k-4 is probably my favorite locomotive. I am hoping it can return to the roster in good working order. And oh yea,

I have a Central Vermont mogul too.

If you do get up with them, and as long as the gears aren’t completely trashed, your chassis is repairable, ….no need to buy a whole new chassis, if your repairman needs assistance, they can contact me. Info can be obtained via profile …..

Pat

Thanks Pat

@harmonyards posted:

.The fix can only be applied to those locomotives that have not totally destroyed the top worm wheel, or totally wallered out the intermediate shaft beyond repair ….it can however, be a preemptive first strike package, in other words, new or lightly used engines will benefit from the fix, as this part will keep the gear centered. Testing shows zero additional wear using Mobil 1 synthetic grease in the

Pat

Hey Pat, just a thought. I haven't heard anything from yourself (or John) regarding any wear of  the secondary shaft bushings in the chassis.

It appears to me that much of the load/torque is taken on the axle gear side of the bushing. This is the side that severe wear of the bushing occurred on my k4. The chassis bushing on the  opposite side was like new.

I noticed this with the unscientific method of gently rocking the loco back and forth while it was off, and observing the shaft rocking side to side in the bushing which was clearly worn  oblong to the naked eye.

I think the gear centering is only one potential issue with this design.

It'll be interesting to see if these bushings hold up years down the road as run times add up. Especially since most folks are unaware of them. The manual does not even recommend lubrication.

@RickO posted:

Hey Pat, just a thought. I haven't heard anything from yourself (or John) regarding any wear of  the secondary shaft bushings in the chassis.

It appears to me that much of the load/torque is taken on the axle gear side of the bushing. This is the side that severe wear of the bushing occurred on my k4. The chassis bushing on the  opposite side was like new.

I noticed this with the unscientific method of gently rocking the loco back and forth while it was off, and observing the shaft rocking side to side in the bushing which was clearly worn  oblong to the naked eye.

I think the gear centering is only one potential issue with this design.

It'll be interesting to see if these bushings hold up years down the road as run times add up. Especially since most folks are unaware of them. The manual does not even recommend lubrication.

Rick, I’ve made note of this issue based on what your findings were on the initial post I made way back on page 1 ……..the only locomotives I can for surely save are those that don’t have a trashed bushing and trashed gears,…..The two I’ve added the fix to do not have a destroyed bushing….AMOF, David Ross’s 2011 K4s is making laps as we speak, tugging 12 cars,……I have the gear box crammed with Mobil 1 synthetic grease, and drops of 75-140 gear oil on those bushings …….we’ll let her run off and on couple more days and then open her up and see what the parts look like……so far she’s happy, smoke is obviously turned off, but amp draws are in the dirt, so that tells me the “fix” isn’t being a parasitic drag……but yes, to answer your question, if the bushing is gone, it’s game, set, match,….can’t over cook it, can’t under cook it……

Pat