Lionel Legacy K4 Gear Box fix, Tales From Harmon Shops

@harmonyards posted:

This Tuscan K4 was one of the worst offenders,…..the gear shift is blatantly obvious,…..this K4 wouldn’t even move,….you could barely even hear the gears trying to grind, it was so far shifted from the worm shaft …..

Pat

Holy you know what. That is just plain terrible. EPIC FAIL. How could this be the final product. As one of my former bosses used to say, "Unacceptable". This is just so wrong. If anyone has an engine that won't move, that is a new paperweight until it get fixed.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Holy you know what. That is just plain terrible. EPIC FAIL. How could this be the final product. As one of my former bosses used to say, "Unacceptable". This is just so wrong. If anyone has an engine that won't move, that is a new paperweight until it get fixed.

Dave

My response ( previous message) was "holy cow"; I think yours is better. 🙂

I understand that all manufacturers can have the occasional "hiccup", but this quite unbelievable.

It appears the emphasis was not to make a good running, quality product; but if it doesn't/can't run (literally), then what's the point? 🤔

Altoona would be shocked.

You guys keep up the good work. 👍

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Dave

I understand that all manufacturers can have the occasional "hiccup", but this quite unbelievable.

It appears the emphasis was not to make a good running, quality product; but if it doesn't/can't run (literally), then what's the point? 🤔

Mark in Oregon

All it had to do is last for one year from the date of purchase, within the first 3 years of the manufacturing date. So it was a success. That way folks can just call it a "shelf queen" and focus on grabbing the next flashy locomotive out of the new catalog.

Fotunately( for us) Pat and others are able to keep the vast majority of locomotives on the layout and operational. Often times better than new, this is no exception.

The sad thing is. How many folks have locomotives with this issue and are unaware of this forum where the best of the best techs hang out to discuss, and offer their services to others? Surely most dealers are not up to the task, especially since they are not setup for machine shop type services.

A few of the K4’s I’ve fixed are not forum members, but have been forwarded to me via other forum members…..that shows how well this forum reaches out beyond it’s members and the word gets out,….

Pat

@RickO posted:

1. All it had to do is last for one year from the date of purchase, within the first 3 years of the manufacturing date. So it was a success. That way folks can just call it a "shelf queen" and focus on grabbing the next flashy locomotive out of the new catalog.

2. Fotunately( for us) Pat and others are able to keep the vast majority of locomotives on the layout and operational. Often times better than new, this is no exception.

1. True, unfortunately. Interesting thing about O scale in general (and Lionel in particular) is it seems like the 2 most often discussed topics are:

"How do I fix my new Lionel?/ poor QC" and:

"What are you going to buy from the new catalog?"

Almost like there's a disconnect somewhere...

2. Equally true. 👍

Mark in Oregon

Rick is right on point as far as it getting past the warranty period.

Thing is why would these thing not be discovered by the manufacturer after a while? Yeah, I know that they wouldn't make people aware of this sort of issue because it is quite the sleeper waiting to awaken and all you know what will break loose.

Now, do I think that they did this on purpose? No. I guess they don't have the rigorous testing that they used to. I seem to remember seeing a video somewhere or maybe a clip in a magazine about Lionel(the old company we all remember) testing the you know what out of a quite a number of products. This usually was done to the point of failure, at least whatever I saw/read was stressing.

Do they still do this sort of thing? Well, with what we're seeing I would say not to the point of failure. I think that this is just because of turn around, overhead, all that stuff that makes a company function and profitable.

That being said, this still should allow them to put one of their newest things through the meat grinder after it is released to see if there is any issues. Imagine if the Legacy Mogul was out through these tests before it left the factory and after it was shipped to customers. I would say that Lionel would have done a lot better on all those if there had been. What can we do but send our Pennsylvania engines to the great Harmon Yards.

I doubt Lionel is even aware there is an issue. If we look back at our own diagnostics on this forum, those engines exhibiting actual failures are strictly from the 2011 model year,….way way out of warranty, or even being a blip on the Lionel radar,…..the other models….we, as a collective group, again, on this thread have identified “ potential “ trouble makers and made note that those models would definitely benefit from a preemptive strike. In other words, fix it before it fixes to give you a fit…..I don’t think Lionel doesn’t care, I think they don’t know…..it’s been 30 + years since I’ve seen Lionel do an active TSB and issue corrective parts in field,….again, to recap what I’ve seen, and believe me, my living room was full of K4’s …..the only locomotives that actually had failures were the 2011 models,….all the others ( and I’ve run the gambit ) have some shift, but were still running…..the fix for them is simply cheap insurance for longevity,……

Pat

Pat, does this arrangement of gears have anything to do with them being back driveable ?   I have 4 Mikados and a Consolidation with this setup. It does make lubing a lot easier. I have 4 10 Wheelers that just have the old school setup. Not back driveable.

@Dave_C posted:

Pat, does this arrangement of gears have anything to do with them being back driveable ?   I have 4 Mikados and a Consolidation with this setup. It does make lubing a lot easier. I have 4 10 Wheelers that just have the old school setup. Not back driveable.

It has everything to do with them being back driveable …….being back driveable I believe is a by-product of the engineering process to get these engines to run incredibly smoothly on the legacy’s 2 million speed steps,….these K4’s will creep like you can’t believe …..with a crappy 385 mabuchi……if you think about it, the low speed steps mean that motor is spinning way below its optimum voltage for making torque, so they use mechanical advantage to make it up,….that’s my theory, and I’m sticking to it,……I think Lionel believes what’s good for the goose, is good for the gander, cause we’re seeing this compound gear box clear across the line….perhaps if these were simple gear boxes, ie; single worm on single worm wheel, these crummy motors ( mabuchis, cannons, etc.) might be exhibiting low voltage motor cog that would show up as a stutter in the lower speed steps,…

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I doubt Lionel is even aware there is an issue. If we look back at our own diagnostics on this forum, those engines exhibiting actual failures are strictly from the 2011 model year,….way way out of warranty, or even being a blip on the Lionel radar,…..the other models….we, as a collective group, again, on this thread have identified “ potential “ trouble makers and made note that those models would definitely benefit from a preemptive strike. In other words, fix it before it fixes to give you a fit…..I don’t think Lionel doesn’t care, I think they don’t know…..it’s been 30 + years since I’ve seen Lionel do an active TSB and issue corrective parts in field,….again, to recap what I’ve seen, and believe me, my living room was full of K4’s …..the only locomotives that actually had failures were the 2011 models,….all the others ( and I’ve run the gambit ) have some shift, but were still running…..the fix for them is simply cheap insurance for longevity,……

Pat

That is exactly my point though Pat. The old days they actually ran stuff into the ground until it broke. I think that nowadays they see if things run for a little bit. Sure when Dave Olson gets a sample in the shops, he tests it out, but that isn't the final product either. I am sure he does the usual stuff to see if it works correctly, and if there is anything wrong, brings the spotlight on it. Back at the factory is where they should thoroughly test stuff out to see if it explodes. But of course, those days are gone.

Anyway, moving on, what are we working towards, fixing things so they are better than the original, right, right.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

That is exactly my point though Pat. The old days they actually ran stuff into the ground until it broke. I think that nowadays they see if things run for a little bit. Sure when Dave Olson gets a sample in the shops, he tests it out, but that isn't the final product either. I am sure he does the usual stuff to see if it works correctly, and if there is anything wrong, brings the spotlight on it. Back at the factory is where they should thoroughly test stuff out to see if it explodes. But of course, those days are gone.

Anyway, moving on, what are we working towards, fixing things so they are better than the original, right, right.

Build it better than they did …..😉

Pat

Yup!!!!

(Re) Made in U.S.A.  👍

New York Central heavy Mike, see box picture for number.

Gearbox looks different from the problematic K4, but I am not certain of any of this.

Gear has about 1/16 side to side movement play.

Is this safe or go to the defective list?

Thanks

Gray Lackey

@NHVRYGray posted:

New York Central heavy Mike, see box picture for number.

Gearbox looks different from the problematic K4, but I am not certain of any of this.

Gear has about 1/16 side to side movement play.

Is this safe or go to the defective list?

Thanks

Gray Lackey

Can you clear away the grease from the sides?….especially where the big brass worm wheel is against the side of the gear box……please …..and thank you for opening yours up!..

Pat

I'll get it tommorow afternoon.

NYC heavy Mike gearbox with grease removed.  Hope these are sufficient.  Engine bought used, rollers show fairly heavy use, but no abuse.

@NHVRYGray posted:

NYC heavy Mike gearbox with grease removed.  Hope these are sufficient.  Engine bought used, rollers show fairly heavy use, but no abuse.

Thanks for taking the time to do this valuable research…..I can see there is no large spacer between the gear box wall, and the bronze worm wheel. Therefore, these heavy Mikes will benefit from the added fix for the future and peace of mind, ……sorry to bust your bubble, but the fix will prevent any shifting ….Dave, are the heavy mikes on the hit list?….

Pat

Looks challenging to fix.  This makes US Hobbies gearboxes even more impressive since they are easily repairable.  Sorry for the 2-rail perspective.

I have one of these heavy Mike's as well.

While there is no spacer. The 1/16 of an inch sideplay on a locomotive showing signs of "fairly heavy use" is far better than the 1/4 of an inch + that the H10s have right out of the box.

This makes sense because there's minimal side shift of the secondary shaft in the chassis on these heavy Mike's.

On the h10 you can see the shaft shift inward and outward when changing direction before opening anything.

@RickO posted:

I have one of these heavy Mike's as well.

While there is no spacer. The 1/16 of an inch sideplay on a locomotive showing signs of "fairly heavy use" is far better than the 1/4 of an inch + that the H10s have right out of the box.

This makes sense because there's minimal side shift of the secondary shaft in the chassis on these heavy Mike's.

On the h10 you can see the shaft shift inward and outward when changing direction before opening anything.

Possibly so Rick, and allow me to explain why I see the need for a fix for the heavy Mikes, and the other models with the “ narrow “ gear box …..gears of this design, (worm on wheel) will benefit for longevity having proper mesh dead in the center. If the the worm gear gets on the edge, there’s a chance abnormal wear can happen on the leading edge of the worm wheel,….so, the worm shaft is obviously very hard, therefore the worm wheel is the sacrificial lamb, and it’s purpose of being made from brass or bronze is so it conforms to the worm shaft. The end result would be premature failure on the edge of the worm wheel, beings it’s way softer material than the oober hard worm shaft…..very rarely in this market have I seen a failed worm shaft. It’s 99% of the time the worm wheel that fails first…..I’ve repaired other locomotives where the worm wheel was completed obliterated, but the worm shaft was absolutely reusable…….so,….would the Heavy Mikes be ok??….that’s not a guarantee I can give, ….but with the added shim bar fix, we’re adding cheap insurance that I can guarantee………😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

….would the Heavy Mikes be ok??….that’s not a guarantee I can give, ….but with the added shim bar fix, we’re adding cheap insurance that I can guarantee………😉

Pat

I'm not questioning your recommendation for the fix Pat. I'm just thinkin' out loud.

It's a great thing your doing saving these locos from catastrophic failure, and protecting folks investment.👍👍

@swrr posted:

Looks challenging to fix.  This makes US Hobbies gearboxes even more impressive since they are easily repairable.  Sorry for the 2-rail perspective.

Start from page 1 and read from the top down….the fix is fairly easy to set up and install, ( at least for me ) …….it’s a fairly non-invasive procedure, not requiring any wheel pulling, gear pulling, etc…..

Pat

@RickO posted:

I'm not questioning your recommendation for the fix Pat. I'm just thinkin' out loud.

It's a great thing your doing saving these locos from catastrophic failure, and protecting folks investment.👍👍

Bingo, Rick, ….that’s putting it in the best description yet,…..a fairly simple fix to protect an investment and prevent a frown,….😄

Pat

Pat,

Not wanting to jump in the repair line, but would you like this chassis for investigation?

I have the body off for an extended period of time for cosmetic and tender mods.

Say the word and you can investigate in person, won't bother me in the least.

Gray Lackey

@NHVRYGray posted:

Pat,

Not wanting to jump in the repair line, but would you like this chassis for investigation?

I have the body off for an extended period of time for cosmetic and tender mods.

Say the word and you can investigate in person, won't bother me in the least.

Gray Lackey

Gray, contact me via profile, and we’ll take it from there,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Thanks for taking the time to do this valuable research…..I can see there is no large spacer between the gear box wall, and the bronze worm wheel. Therefore, these heavy Mikes will benefit from the added fix for the future and peace of mind, ……sorry to bust your bubble, but the fix will prevent any shifting ….Dave, are the heavy mikes on the hit list?….

Pat

Yeah, the Mike's got stuck on there a bit ago as I think someone had posted something somewhere about it. Sorry about the delay responding, long day.

Oh, the only thing that is currently not listed as a fail was those Varnish Pacific's and those that weren't classified as K4's. I don't know if any of those have popped up at all, I just know I don't own any. Another note is the newest Pacific's, when Pat gets to mine, we'll have a definitive answer on those.

Dave NYC - When you used the term "Varnish Pacifics" above were you referring to the four 2012 Pacifics on your Master List (namely 6-11338 Alton Limited #657, 6-11335 Blue Comet #832, 6-11334 Crescent Limited #1393 and 6-11423 Blue Comet #833) as opposed to the six other 2018 Pacifics on your Master List?

@PH1975 posted:

Dave NYC - When you used the term "Varnish Pacifics" above were you referring to the four 2012 Pacifics on your Master List (namely 6-11338 Alton Limited #657, 6-11335 Blue Comet #832, 6-11334 Crescent Limited #1393 and 6-11423 Blue Comet #833) as opposed to the six other 2018 Pacifics on your Master List?

Yes sir you are correct. Also not included is the most recent release of Pacific's from 2020 IIRC.

Hey Pat, were you going to post a video of a post K4 running smoothly after the fix? I don't remember if you said you were going to or not, hard to keep up with things this week.

Also, what is the workload looking like, more K4's on this weekend's docket?

Any updates?

I've been in contact with Pat on a different subject,so I already know how it's going, but I bet the "general population" is curious... 🙂

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Any updates?

I've been in contact with Pat on a different subject,so I already know how it's going, but I bet the "general population" is curious... 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Yeah, curious but also realize that there could be a lot on the plate as typically does happen. Tomorrow I get my car back with an expensive cost to it. Well, I won't be able to hit my usual train show route for the year, but I will still be able to do projects like this one as well as a few others that come up plus my preorder purchases.

Fellas, I do indeed have a video of some smoothed out K4’s …..I’ll post up soon, ….this weekend I’ve got to catch up on some lingering custom work for some fellas on the forum……they’ve been as patient as Jobe, and it’s time to get them done,…..thank god things are catching up at the day job, so I have a little more time to dedicate to locomotive work,…..I thank those that have been patient, ….y’all know who ya are,…..Dave, Dick, Dennis, Sid, Joe, and a couple others,…..I thank you guys!..

Pat

You know me Pat, not in all that big of a hurry. I figure that there is a long list of stuff to do, know my place is somewhere about where I would imagine I'd be, and that this particular topic/project is one that is a downtime on the other things you have going on. That is how I would expect it to be, and the list for this project, I'm near the bottom of the list, so, like I said, no big hurry. 👍🐻

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

You know me Pat, not in all that big of a hurry. I figure that there is a long list of stuff to do, know my place is somewhere about where I would imagine I'd be, and that this particular topic/project is one that is a downtime on the other things you have going on. That is how I would expect it to be, and the list for this project, I'm near the bottom of the list, so, like I said, no big hurry. 👍🐻

Dave, I do have that MTH K4 about ready to head to Alex for his magic,….I spoke to him via phone the other day,….I enjoy irritating the lining of his stomach with my nonsense…..anyways, your stuff is in the query too…..😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Dave, I do have that MTH K4 about ready to head to Alex for his magic,….I spoke to him via phone the other day,….I enjoy irritating the lining of his stomach with my nonsense…..anyways, your stuff is in the query too…..😉

Pat

Pat, you're busier than my car has been getting its new engine(let's not talk about that cost). I get to be back in my own car tomorrow, should be something. I think the best thing will be my visit down to my local train store as I haven't been in there since I put in my newest preorder.

You know, I am so ever curious about the newest of engines that we will be seeing come out later on this year from the V2 2021 catalog. I would wager that the 2-8-0's are going to be on the chopping block with the same gear issue we are seeing here. Thinking about it of course won't do anything until we actually see the product itself. We definitely know that it is more likely to be in certain smaller steam engines than anything else, but that really doesn't mean it can't be in larger ones. I guess we'll all see when we get something in. I just hope that the Berkshire in the 2022 catalog have a great gearbox.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Tomorrow Pat should receive my H10 6-84954 PRR #1773 from the Coal Hauler set, and the Pacific 2131700 Mr. Muffin's NYC #3330 to take a look at.

May I ask what the conclusion was for the Pacific engine.  There was an earlier post stating this engine does not have a problem but didn't see a post with Pat's diagnosis.  Apologies if I just missed it.

Thanks,

@GregM posted:

May I ask what the conclusion was for the Pacific engine.  There was an earlier post stating this engine does not have a problem but didn't see a post with Pat's diagnosis.  Apologies if I just missed it.

Thanks,

The Pacifics are ok, no actions required. I just haven’t had time to post up my findings,…..

for the record, and let this stand as notes for Dave on his master list, the problem locomotives are those with the forward facing Mabuchi 385 motor. As noted before, the locomotives with the large motors, ( usually Cannons, or Buehlers ) mounted in the cab areas, have a generous black large, nylon spacer that keeps the gear train centered…….

Pat  

harmonyards - Does your passing grade comment for the Pacific type engine include the four (4) 2012 models (to which I referred above) or just the more recent versions? Thanks.

@harmonyards posted:

The Pacifics are ok, no actions required. I just haven’t had time to post up my findings,…..

for the record, and let this stand as notes for Dave on his master list, the problem locomotives are those with the forward facing Mabuchi 385 motor. As noted before, the locomotives with the large motors, ( usually Cannons, or Buehlers ) mounted in the cab areas, have a generous black large, nylon spacer that keeps the gear train centered…….

Pat  

Hmm, that sounds like a good thing on the Pacific's Pat. I think when I get time tonight I will do some editing. I think maybe the best part for editing would be to move the list over to my post on page 1 right below yours. I can still leave it on page 2 as well, just so things don't get out of whack as far as some of the replies that may not make any sense if it was gone. I'll add whatever bits above about the motors at the top of the post that is to be re-edited, whatever seems the sensible solution. What do you think?