Lionel NEW Union Pacific 21 inch Excursion passenger cars -

Well I received my UP cars tonight.

I am happy.  Great start for an affordable 2 rail model of the Frontier Days Excursion train!

2-4 car sets, 2-2car sets, and a diner arrived.

Close inspection revealed: No paint flaws, no nicks, no blemishes, no missing grabs.  The 21" car sizing is good with the generator being 18" to show that its shorter than the other cars. Nice.  The under body detail is good...needs upgrade, but I do like the air lines added with wire.

Only problems in the 13 cars are:  no vent stacks for my diner (they're missing) and a wire hanging down on one of the domes (fixable).

Nice job Lionel in my case...This set is gonna be fun!

Dave B. 

Sometimes in my effort to be clever I select the wrong term.  A "Cheerleader" is someone who supports a particular brand or product even when there are posted issues about the products they support.  A Cheerleader is an "everything is just rosy" voice within a tread on OGR or any computer posting.

I also doubt anyone is cheering about the issues with the cars we have long waited to own. Please forgive me if I was not as clear as I could be.

Thank you for sharing.  It does benefit the manufacturers in the long run to have an open discussion of their products. New innovations and product corrective updates are assisted by feedback, good or bad.

why not just say what we are all thinking......Lionel thinks these are TOYS!

Well, I got my BN passenger cars this week from Charles Ro.  Diner, and 2-pack set.  The 4-pack is still in transit.  Still no word from Mr Ro on the arrival of the UP cars I ordered.  Odd that the BN cars were announced later but arrived first.   One of the 4 antenna stanchions on the diner was already broken in the container, the other 3 the following day despite careful handling.  Otherwise, great looking cars.  Be cautious opening the box as the coupler hardware was not sealed in the celephane packets.

At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest,   maybe Lionel should just reduce the price of all these new passenger cars by 25%-30% and sell them as kits so the purchaser only has to assemble them correctly once.

Nick

machinist posted:

At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest,   maybe Lionel should just reduce the price of all these new passenger cars by 25%-30% and sell them as kits so the purchaser only has to assemble them correctly once.

Nick

I would guess if you go to the LCCA open house next fall they will be going for far less than that. As is, 20% of list. Think about it. If they are missing parts or have paint defects and Lionel has no replacement parts what are they worth?

Pete

These cars are a disgrace— I am sure old josh is spinning in his grave

Trinkle-Trains posted:

Only problems in the 13 cars are:  no vent stacks for my diner (they're missing) and a wire hanging down on one of the domes (fixable).

Nice job Lionel in my case...This set is gonna be fun!

Thanks for your photos, which are among the best in this thread.

I'm curious about the defects you mention. First, "no vent stacks for my diner" but your photo shows the same vents as on mine. These don't correspond to the catalog illustration (OK, they named the wrong diner but the roof vents were a feature) or to the prototype or a small scale brass version of this car I have found (see below) but they seem to be what Lionel decided to put on their product:

My take on this is that (a) it was easier to use a small part and (b) Lionel was thinking of people with tunnels on their layouts where the tall vents might pose a problem.

Second, why on earth is there a wire hanging in/on the dome? There's no lighting in them (or at least not in mine). Lionel used the same basic vista dome interior design as in the first run cars, which means that there are holes in part of the dome seat assembly that are supposed to let in light from below.

It doesn't work (see above). But assuming I can get the car apart, there's plenty of room for auxiliary LED lighting in the dome roof. 

Hancock52 posted:

Trinkle-Trains posted:

Only problems in the 13 cars are:  no vent stacks for my diner (they're missing) and a wire hanging down on one of the domes (fixable).

Nice job Lionel in my case...This set is gonna be fun!

Thanks for your photos, which are among the best in this thread.

I'm curious about the defects you mention. First, "no vent stacks for my diner" but your photo shows the same vents as on mine. These don't correspond to the catalog illustration (OK, they named the wrong diner but the roof vents were a feature) or to the prototype or a small scale brass version of this car I have found (see below) but they seem to be what Lionel decided to put on their product:

My take on this is that (a) it was easier to use a small part and (b) Lionel was thinking of people with tunnels on their layouts where the tall vents might pose a problem.

Second, why on earth is there a wire hanging in/on the dome? There's no lighting in them (or at least not in mine). Lionel used the same basic vista dome interior design as in the first run cars, which means that there are holes in part of the dome seat assembly that are supposed to let in light from below.

It doesn't work (see above). But assuming I can get the car apart, there's plenty of room for auxiliary LED lighting in the dome roof. 

Hancock52,  I agree I am lucky here on these cars (in particular) looking good.  I assumed the catalog pictured vent stacks were normal and I was missing them.  Why a wire hanging?  I dont know...Ill find out when I take it a part for detail and 2 railing.  Thanks.

Rick,  The wires that dropped, tuck next to the floor of the dome, along the car side. When you detail the car, you can add a piece of tape to help keep them in place.  When they are in the correct place, you will never see them.

Mojave Mike posted:

Well, I got my BN passenger cars this week from Charles Ro.  Diner, and 2-pack set.  The 4-pack is still in transit.  Still no word from Mr Ro on the arrival of the UP cars I ordered.  Odd that the BN cars were announced later but arrived first.   ....

There is seldom any rhyme or reason as to when products are manufactured vs. catalog'd.  Usually chronologically, but not necessarily.

As to passenger cars that are "back-ordered"... we're in a period where most of the large dealers have shipped their first wave of orders.  And the fact that Charlie Ro has shipped as many units as he has is amazing, since the Northeast and New England have been smacked with 3 Nor'easters in 2 weeks -- just after these passenger cars arrived!

Beyond that though, I get the impression we're in a bit of a "grey zone" right now, where dealers are either waiting for additional cars thru [1] Lionel directly, or [2] whatever channels exist for dealers to swap product and make deals with each other... or [3] they're closely managing the supply they have so they can ensure their early pre-order customers are happy in the event an exchange is needed.  Exactly how many more sets Lionel has in NC isn't 100% clear, since I don't think these were formal BTO products.

So if you're still waiting on back-orders from some of the big dealers, hang in there.  I know Charlie Ro has a great track record for fulfilling back-orders thru whatever network of suppliers he's built over the years.  

David

John Rowlen posted:

Rick,  The wires that dropped, tuck next to the floor of the dome, along the car side. When you detail the car, you can add a piece of tape to help keep them in place.  When they are in the correct place, you will never see them.

Thanks John!  I'll definitely be doing this!  Your interiors look great!

If your 21" passenger cars are delayed,  BE GRATEFUL.  Some dealers are taking extra time and effort to inspect the car sets before shipping.  They are re-distributing good cars into fully inspected sets. The bad cars are set aside for eventual repacking and return to Lionel.

In these cases, slow delivery is GOOD news.  Dealers are taking one railroad at a time, usually the sets with the fewest issues first.  I hope all your cars are good.

machinist posted:

At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest,   maybe Lionel should just reduce the price of all these new passenger cars by 25%-30% and sell them as kits so the purchaser only has to assemble them correctly once.

Nick

I think you'll see them again at Lionel's Open House in November at a Blow out price?

laz1957 posted:

machinist posted:

At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest,   maybe Lionel should just reduce the price of all these new passenger cars by 25%-30% and sell them as kits so the purchaser only has to assemble them correctly once.

Nick

I think you'll see them again at Lionel's Open House in November at a Blow out price?

Next to a stack of crazy glue, scotch tape, e clips, and touch-up paint.

John Rowlen posted:

I have seen cars like these.  The most telling thing is that parts are missing.  Where did they go?  Did the dealer think you would not notice?  Did the dealer even take time to inspect them? 

You have had worse luck than I have, but maybe I should look at my cars again.

As dealers run out of car sets, our options get very limited.  Good luck.  Thank you for sharing.  The company men and cheerleaders say these cars don't exist.

 

You are welcome John. Happy to share my experience so others know what to keep an eye out for. Hopeful the dealer shipped sealed and did not inspect cars. Otherwise makes it even sadder for potential consumers. Will also add, been 4 days and counting since I have contacted my point of purchase without a word from them. Left emails and voicemails. Lesson learned. Will be utilizing different dealers going forward. 

RickO posted:

laz1957 posted:

machinist posted:

At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest,   maybe Lionel should just reduce the price of all these new passenger cars by 25%-30% and sell them as kits so the purchaser only has to assemble them correctly once.

Nick

I think you'll see them again at Lionel's Open House in November at a Blow out price?

Next to a stack of crazy glue, scotch tape, e clips, and touch-up paint.

Especially since most of those cars will likely be the ones dealers returned back to North Carolina for credit. 

econd, why on earth is there a wire hanging in/on the dome? There's no lighting in them (or at least not in mine). Lionel used the same basic vista dome interior design as in the first run cars, which means that there are holes in part of the dome seat assembly that are supposed to let in light from below.

It doesn't work (see above). But assuming I can get the car apart, there's plenty of room for auxiliary LED lighting in the dome roof. 

I thought that I would comment on dome lights.  I rode VIA's Canadian across Canada.  I spent a lot of time riding in the dome cars at night.  The only lights on in the domes were those along the edges of the floors so people could see where to step.  The other lights, if there were any, were kept off so that people could see the view outside the train.  The view of the signals and other trains was especially interesting to me.  

Therefore, looking at the Canadian from the outside at night, a person would not see any lights in the domes.  The other cars had normal lighting at night.

NH Joe

New Haven Joe posted:

I thought that I would comment on dome lights.  I rode VIA's Canadian across Canada.  I spent a lot of time riding in the dome cars at night.  The only lights on in the domes were those along the edges of the floors so people could see where to step.  ...

That would actually be a cool effect to have small amounts of floor lighting for the domes.  It would also alleviate the undesirable issue of having wiring harnesses and the LED lights themselves being visible inside the dome.

David

New Haven Joe posted

I thought that I would comment on dome lights.  I rode VIA's Canadian across Canada.  I spent a lot of time riding in the dome cars at night.  The only lights on in the domes were those along the edges of the floors so people could see where to step.  The other lights, if there were any, were kept off so that people could see the view outside the train.  The view of the signals and other trains was especially interesting to me.  

Therefore, looking at the Canadian from the outside at night, a person would not see any lights in the domes.  The other cars had normal lighting at night.

NH Joe

I can see why that would be the case as during the day you might not need lighting and at night the light would interfere with the view. But as respects the models, it would be difficult to duplicate the effect of floor lighting and as built the domes just look dark when run on a layout. All the large dome models I have seen starting with K-Line's have full dome lighting. Not sure what Atlas did with its CZ cars.

My dealer called. My eight Broadway Limited Cars are inspected and ready to ship.  We agreed I would glue any loose windows in place since I detail my cars with painted seats and Preiser 65602 People I paint.

The Broadway Limited Cars do not have the upper window pins in the correct place along the roof line to reinforce/hold the window glass in place according to him.  The glass is falling inward at the top because of this on some, not all, passenger cars.  The making of the new body molds may have led to this omission or miss-placement of the pins.  The window glass panels length may have been altered for a better fit down the car's side.  I cannot verify these previous statements, but trust the dealer's word when he asked if I minded working on re-gluing my windows since I will already be opening my cars.

This dealer is going the extra distance for his customers, as some other dealers are.  When I emailed him at 9:00 P.M. on Wednesday night, he called me back.  He was still working on re-combining cars into better sets.

seems to me the lettering is not right on these prr cars --too yellow not gold and the is too thick--am I right?

John, Please post as many pictures as possible as you detail your Pennsylvania Broadway Limited cars. Your work acts as a needed inspiration to me to get to work. Thanks

I will post pictures as I work on the cars. It could be several days.  I have many Preiser 65602 Unpainted Seated People to paint.  The SP and UP cars depleted by supply of some of the 24 different figures.

I paint the figures in this order: 1. flesh, tie, shirt, suit coat and pants, hair and then shoes. I do retouching as needed.  The 24 figures are all painted with the same color groupings. Women in yellow, blue, pink, green and lavender/purple clothes.  Men are in brown, tan/sand, grey and blue suits. By staying in one or two clothing colors, I can finish the people faster.  Then I change to other colors for the next box of 24 people.  I have 21 boxes at home waiting to be painted.  I will probably sell some Preiser 65602 Unpainted sets that I don't use, since I decided the Broadway Limited would be my last passenger cars.

I have gained much inspiration from Eric's Trains Videos.  It is nice to share, see, then experiment on our own.

Here is a great video done by a very good friend of mine Daniel of his set with a pair of Lionel E8/E9s.

Very nice Daniel !

Great video,  makes me more excited to get mine.

As initially delivered in 1948/9 the postwar Broadway Limited cars were delivered with gold leaf lettering and stripes.  Beginning in 1952 the cars were redone with mustard yellow imitation gold lettering and stripes (sometimes called "dulux").  The stripes were 1" wide.  The same changes in practice was applied to electric, steam, and diesels in passenger service.  Dulux was the standard for freight service locomotives (steam, diesel, electric) throughout the postwar era.   To my eye the Lionel stripes appear wider than a scale 1" - perhaps someone with a scale rule will measure them and report back..  

Here are some photos that I took of the UP train in Sacramento, CA in 2012.  NH Joe

J Daddy posted:

Here is a great video done by a very good friend of mine Daniel of his set with a pair of Lionel E8/E9s.

Very nice Daniel !

 

Nice looking train but the harmonica horn strikes again!

On  my 7 car set, so far:

2 cars have couplers that won't close

1 car has diaphragm broken off

2 cars missing the Kadee mounting pads

the back of the dome on the observation car does not have the window framing painted

lights in the diner don't work

JFC454 posted:

On  my 7 car set, so far:

2 cars have couplers that won't close

1 car has diaphragm broken off

2 cars missing the Kadee mounting pads

the back of the dome on the observation car does not have the window framing painted

lights in the diner don't work

...

Which is EXACTLY why everybody who purchased the 21" cars from this production run needs to check their cars immediately upon receiving them.  Years ago, we could buy this stuff little-by-little and stash them on a shelf with plans of a dream layout years away in retirement.  Not. Any. More.

David

This is utterly unacceptable—

JFC454 posted:

On  my 7 car set, so far:

2 cars have couplers that won't close

1 car has diaphragm broken off

2 cars missing the Kadee mounting pads

the back of the dome on the observation car does not have the window framing painted

That is just totally unacceptable. Nobody should be selling these cars in an un-inspected state.

lights in the diner don't work

Well, if it helps:

1.  In command mode, the diner has to be addressed before the lights come on. That's the position with my 1st run and 2nd run diners. It's a little annoying but it works.

2.  My 1st run diner came with one of the lighting wires screwed through, the reason being that the power wires are positioned in a slot in the interior assembly that is near one of the four main body screws. Asking for trouble, that. 

3.  In my case, just repairing the wire did not work because it did something to the RCMC board. But maybe you have not got that damage; have you tried assigning the diner a road number in the CAB2? Check the wire first - if you have not already sent the thing back.

Hancock52 posted:

JFC454 posted:

On  my 7 car set, so far:

2 cars have couplers that won't close

1 car has diaphragm broken off

2 cars missing the Kadee mounting pads

the back of the dome on the observation car does not have the window framing painted

That is just totally unacceptable. Nobody should be selling these cars in an un-inspected state.

lights in the diner don't work

Well, if it helps:

1.  In command mode, the diner has to be addressed before the lights come on. That's the position with my 1st run and 2nd run diners. It's a little annoying but it works.

2.  My 1st run diner came with one of the lighting wires screwed through, the reason being that the power wires are positioned in a slot in the interior assembly that is near one of the four main body screws. Asking for trouble, that. 

3.  In my case, just repairing the wire did not work because it did something to the RCMC board. But maybe you have not got that damage; have you tried assigning the diner a road number in the CAB2? Check the wire first - if you have not already sent the thing back.

 

Thank you for that suggestion.  I added the diner to the train and used the Train Link button to turn the lights on.  The switch on the bottom of the car must be for conventional use since when you turn track power off and power up again the diner does not remember that it had the lights on.  You need to turn them on each time you run the train.  I noticed that the intensity of the lighting in the diner is dimmer than the other cars.  Is there a light intensity control I am missing or are the diners just dimmer than the other cars?

I have zip tied the two couplers and I guess I will have to get some Harbor Mist Gray paint and see how steady my hands are.  The broken diaphragm is a shipping casualty and not Lionel's fault.

Thanks again for the insight on turning on the lights.

Here is what the dome with the missing paint looks like.

Spent the evening painting more Preiser 65602 Unpainted Seated People as I watched/listened to the NCAA basketball tournament on TV.  I started two boxes of 24 people: one in blue and one in pink clothing.  Painting the Preiser figures for my passenger cars is my version of "March Madness".  Tomorrow I will continue with a box done in yellow and another in light green.

These figures are far from done.  I glued the heads on two of the figures with babies.  The man feeding a baby a bottle comes in four pieces.  Another women with a baby comes in three pieces.  I have over 21 boxes left to paint and assemble.

THAT IS MARCH MADNESS!

Isn't  there a source / manufacture that sells sitting people pre painted?

There are five different Preiser Painted packs that have the 24 figures I am painting.

3 - four people packs that have been out of production, 1 - six pack with the Adults with 3 Babies, and 1 - six pack of the remaining seated figures. The cost for all five packs of painted figures is over $155.00 plus five separate shipping fees from Germany because no store has all five in stock or in quantity. 

The Preiser 65602 Unpainted Seated People 24-pack costs from $25.00 to $37.00 (US) plus shipping. Shipping from Germany ranges from $10.00 to $49.00 for DHL so I buy multiple packs at a time.  The Ebay sellers are my only source.  Two years ago the Preiser 65602 Unpainted Seated People 24-pack was also out-of-production.  I prefer the Preiser blanks because the white figures accept paint better and need only one coat of paint.  My painting efforts save me well over $125.00 on each set of 24 people, or approximately the price of the passenger car they go in.

The problem with using the China figures is the pre-painted figures paint is glossy, the paint can't be matched easily to touch them up, and the plastic flesh-colored unpainted blanks are harder to paint, needing two coats of paint.

It is a gamble buying painted figures from China. Sometimes they look good, other times you might as well repaint them.  Selection of figures is a matter of the level of quality you want from your detailing efforts.

"If you close your eyes, they all look good." - John Rowlen

Checking my newly arrived Lionel "Broadway Limited" 4-pack, and the "Tower View" Observation has a broken pedestal sticking in the roof that looks like it was improperly repaired by the factory. The old remnant post is glued in the roof, and a new full-length post shows glue on the antenna rod that may have been used to add the new full-length post to the end of the car without removing the old broken post.

Kitchen Car:  It has a window falling in and the sound system wires are exposed. The two Floor Pieces appear to be the same.  Usually these cars had some Dormitory Space for the crew at one end of the car.

Dining Car looks good, but it appears to couple closer to the Kitchen Car than my Southern Pacific cars with the same Full-width Diaphragms.

Cattawissa Rapids:  Type flaw in the letter "I" shows the silk screen picked up some dirt that stuck to the bottom of the screen and blocked the paint from flowing in the correct shape of the letter.  This would reoccur until the screen was cleaned.  My dealer says he found a lot of dirt inside the cars he opened.  I found dirt on an interior window of my Dining Car.  I tapped the window and the dirt flew back out of view.  You would not want someone painting your new car in a paint shop with dust and dirt.

As my dealer and I spoke on the phone, he opened another "Tower View" Observation and found that it had scratches/gouges over the third from the rear windows on both sides of the Observation car.  The words he spoke fully expressed my frustration with the car(s) I received.

I have never seen new O gauge products, or ANY new products for that matter, arrive so screwed up...Lionel should be ashamed.