Lionel says goodbye to transformer controlled train sets

 

My view from my circa 1920's house remains the same...I'll continue use my postwar transformers to run my pre-war trains. No need for any modern technology (older than 1950). I thank Ben Franklin and Thomas Edison Landsteiner every day!

 

Thanks for an entertaining thread.

Tom

Apples to oranges comparison,I can fix those thing and so can some one with little or no skill, all they need to do is ask to be shown how or read up on it, not so with the remote digital stuff, once it breaks you need to either replace it or get it fixed. And the power cord on the digital power supplies can suffer from the same fraying and shorting issues also.

 

Jerry

Uh, excuse me.  Within the O gauge train world, LionChief does happen to be innovative.  It is a break from the high-end, expensive, and technologically muscle-bound systems of the past (TMCC, Legacy, DCS).

 

You want to disagree with me, that's fine.  But don't call me a liar.

 

George

I think you need to review the definition of the word innovate. If you like it that's fine, but you can't call it an innovation just because it hasn't been applied to O gauge before. This is not new technology. You yourself point out that it has been used in RC models. In fact there were hydrogen filled airship models guided by radio signals in the late 1900's.

 

I'm not making a personal attack on you, but merely stating facts. Take a breath and repeat after me: Trains are fun...Trains are fun...Trains are fun...

Hello Stewart 

    Sidebar thought.

I was more interested that Lionel no longer making aluminum passenger cars than transformers being eliminated in sets. The problems with production processes, is taking out the aluminum passenger cars. I use 4 Lionel Bricks to power my layout and a ZW, if I want to run conventional.

     I also like the presentation on LionChief Plus and Universal Controller along with the GG-1.

See screenshots below from TCA,  public You Tube Video.

Gary

• Cheers from The Detroit & Mackinac Railway, “ A Toy Train Layout” 

  Click screenshot to enlarge.

Lionchief and Lionchief Plus are making quality train sets MORE affordable, not less affordable. You can get more for your money with a Lionel starter set now than in the last 15 years. People want to complain when a set for the Christmas tree is $300 but then they run right out and plunk down $300 on a new gaming system or cell phone. What did they think, they were gonna get a nice train set for $50? This isn't 1950.

 

-Eric Siegel

You can find older Lionel starter sets at antique shops, yard sales ec if you look. Cost about $50-75.  Do it.

It annoys me that the newer LC RTR sets do not have the option for conventional.  Yet I have purchased a few.  I anticipate running a multiple train layout at Christmas with North Pole Central and Polar Express using the recently issued LC sets.  I also have some of the same that were made as conventional.  So I have a choice.  Personally, I prefer a good LW with a Throttle handle and lighted dial, large buttons for whistle and direction.  That is my style.  For the grandkids, it is more likely to be LC.  There are so many neat tricks you can do with conventional with isolated blocks, switching (particularly with Super-O manual switches) and other techniques, that make it more Fun to me.  To each their own.

I've read most of the reply's on this thread....(more for entertainment than anything else ). And I don't think this question has been addressed, maybe I missed it.

 

But actually, this is a very good question that I, for one would like to see answered. What does happen if a remote to a specific loco breaks or gets lost? Just call your LHS for a replacement?

Reading the responses I think people are seeing this as something it isn't, ie that conventional transformer control is gone. That isn't true, lionchief + engines support conventional, as do legacy engines and as far as I know, they are also still making conventional only engines. 

 

I think the problem is that people are looking at a starter set as the basis for building a train empire, rather than what they are, a basic introduction to the trains. In a sense, this was always true, the transformers that came with the basic starter sets were often very limited, they could run a starter engine and that was about it..and often the cars and the especially the engines were not exactly high end collectibles. Lion Chief represents an introduction, and like the cheap starter set engines of the past, if someone gets into the hobby they likewise will move on to 'the real things' and the starter set stuff will likely be used around a Christmas tree or not used or given away.  There always were high end and low end starter sets, and this is continuing the tradition. 

 

They also are doing this because they obviously see that remote control is likely to become the way going forward, but it doesn't mean conventional is going away. As shown with lionchief + or legacy or DCS, there is no reason they can't support conventional operation, it doesn't cost a lot (conventional control is simple technology). The reason they left it out of the lion chief is probably they figured this is a basic starter set and they don't see it as something for participants in the hobby so wasn't worth putting it in. 

 

Put it this way, it doesn't make much sense for them to remove conventional from their other offerings, even if they decide to drop conventional only engines (which so far it doesn't look like they are), they also would be idiotic to drop conventional from whether they expand lion chief + or with legacy equipped engines, the relative cost to the cost of those units is small, and leaving it out would exclude those who run conventional, who might mix postwar conventional with modern scale engines, for example. So I don't think is the death knell of conventional, rather I see it as creating a basic starter set with technology that will attract a new, target audience at a good price, and to be honest, if you are going to attract younger people or people these days used to remotes for everything, you have to give them what they know, pure and simple. 

"What does happen if a remote to a specific loco breaks or gets lost? Just call your LHS for a replacement?"

 

When the multi-loco remote is available in 2016 ($50 or less to control up to three locos at one time), one won't need to worry about having a specific remote for any individual loco.  Right now, one would order a replacement remote for that specific loco.  It's pretty much a non-problem now, and becomes a total non-problem soon.  Sort of equivalent to asking "if your ZW or CW80 dies, what do you do?"  You use another transformer (or multi-loco remote).  The remote is going to be flexible in that you can own 100 locos but only 3 can be in the remote simultaneously.  It's programmable to whichever 3 locos you want to work with.  It should take seconds, not minutes.

This:

 

Or maybe even this:

Thanks steiner and rob for the response,  ADCX rob, what is that in the second pic?

 

Something on circle L's drawing board, or something we hope they will make?

From this thread.

So what happens when several club members go to a show or go to run trains on the club layout and some of them have the same LC or LC+ train?  I assume if they are using the train specific remote they will have issues.  Like running two identical RC cars on the same frequency.  SO they will have to take turns?

 

What if besides some identical trains there are a few universal remotes?  How do you prevent loading someone else's engine?  Does the engine and remote only respond to the loaded engine?  Does the engine lock out other remotes once loaded into one remote?

 

At some point this has to evolve to allow an engine specific ID change to deconflict.

 

Basically a parent could not buy two identical sets for their kids.  They could not be played with at the same time.  G

 

 

The thing is, if you lose the set supplied controller or it is damaged then you can't run the engine - right?

 

How do you replace it? And then what does that set you back $$$ to run a train you already own?

 

Surely they could go both ways on this, a remote AND transformer supplied engine in one.

Our club has had similar problems in the past with TMCC engines programmed with the same number, so that's not a new problem to LionChief. As far as taking turns, our club only has two mainlines, so we have to take turns anyway. I can't ever recall seeing two identical engines on the layout at the same time, regardless of how they are controlled. Well one time a guy was running a scale Turbine and I happened to have a postwar one with me, but that would hardly be considered the same...

 

That's a very good point about the parents buying identical train sets. I hadn't thought of that, and I would guess most parents wouldn't know. I don't know how many would buy identical sets, but that could be a disappointing Christmas morning (or whenever).

 

Personally I like the LionChief system though I have only limited experience with it. Our club owns a LC Thomas set (which is the only train the club itself owns) and if I am running my trains, Thomas is usually on the same loop with them. The big downfall I saw with the system when it first came out was that there was no easy way to add an accessory since the wall wart only provided one track connection. I mentioned it at the LCCA convention (last year at Indy) at one of Lionel's seminars during a Q and A session, and they told me to come back to tomorrow's session. That is where they introduced the plug and play system.

 

As for all the crystal ball predictions, here's mine: I would bet that in the next year or so we see a Legacy to Lionchief bridge that will connect to the base to allow the Legacy remote to communicate with Lionchief engines. Naturally it will have to allow more than 3 (perhaps 100?) engines to make it superior to the universal remote they are coming out with and to justify what I assume would have to be a more expensive device.

 

J White

 

Wish I knew, I have one dead remote and they want me to send the whole engine back.

 

Art

Great idea!

 

Art

Obviously until one has the universal remote in one's hands, one doesn't know the exact answer to some questions.  But if they work the same way 2.4 GHz digital spread spectrum R/C transmitters and receivers do (this is what LionChief and LionChief Plus are, technically), one binds the specific loco (or airplane) to the specific transmitter, and there is no interference even if someone is using the exact same airplane and transmitter nearby. 

 

Thus, presumably, each loco will have it's own unique identity, just like R/C airplanes, cars and boats that use this technology.  Indeed this current R/C technology is superior to the identity systems used with TMCC, Legacy and DCS for loco identification where specific numbers are used, not unique digital identities.  Therefore if Lionel uses the same technology implementation that is used in R/C airplanes, there will never be any conflicts between locos in one person's handheld and another person's.  At least when the multi-loco remote is in use.

 

For the remotes limited to a single loco this will not be true, as these seem to be permanently "bound" to that particular model of loco.  For these, it will not be possible to independently control two identical locos with two identical original remotes in the same vicinity. 

 

Exactly like any two Railking set locos with two of their infrared remotes . Indeed, no two MTH set locos can operate independently without DCS.  Whereas two different LionChief set or Lion Chief Plus locos can be operated independently right out of the box, no additional equipment needed. 

 

The two identical LionChief set locos should not be a limitation if there are multi-loco remotes available, which should deal with this issue. And the street price is about $40.  You can have three or four of these around for the cost of one Legacy or DCS remote .

 

That said, obviously we need to wait and see what Lionel's implementation of this is.  My guess is that if it's very popular, we'll see remotes capable of handling 5 or 10 locos, just like some R/C transmitters can.  I think the Legacy to LionChief bridge is not impossible technically but there may not be enough of a market for it.  But never say never.

History has a way of repeating itself.  If you wait long enough the transformer operated train sets will come back in fashion.  Just look at vinyl records and other things...

Some people are struggling, paycheck to paycheck, and are not buying gaming systems or expensive automobiles, and $300 is a deal breaker, even $150 is too much.  Not everyone has deep pockets!

We are all Monday Morning quarterbacking here including my own crystal ball predication.It would be helpful if someone at Lionel would chime in with their view on the long term strategy of the LC+ product.

"even $150 is too much."

 

Well, to state the obvious, unfortunately not everyone can afford this hobby or even any hobby.  Food, shelter, transportation and medical care should take precedence.  I think Eric's point was that trains, at least LionChief sets, are more affordable today than toy trains (at least Lionel) in the 1950s.  That is true, I believe, but doesn't contradict your point that $150 for toys is too much for some folks.  Just like $20 was too much for my parents in the 1950s.  Had to wait until the 1980s to afford three rail trains, so I was unfortunate and fortunate in one lifetime.

Then they don't need a train running around the Christmas tree, do they?

Could you guys have a little compassion for the less fortunate?

 

Take care, Joe.

"Could you guys have a little compassion for the less fortunate?"

 

If you have a specific family in mind, perhaps you could lead an effort to provide them with a train set for this Christmas (or whatever holiday they celebrate)?  I'd contribute.

I'd recommend checking out the Thomas set (LionChief) at your local dealer or Amazon.  I've gotten sets to donate to our Children's Hospital for as low as $120 in recent years. Currently Amazon has some for sale for $102, probably last year's overstock.  Local dealers will sometimes give you a set at wholesale for donation to a good cause.

Nope. The less fortunate are often the 'less fortunate' by choice. Or should I say 'poor choice'.

 

I suspect many O gaugers made better choices that included education and work. For some of us that meant hard education at night after working a shift or two. Then it was work, sometimes more than one job at a time and hard work.

 

Life is full of choices. Make good one most of the time and it is cake. Make not so good choices it just seems too keep kickin' ya in the ***.

 

Nobody needs a dingin' toy train, for that matter nobody needs Christmas. These are wants. You want it, work for it.

 

Ted

Yes, but that is easy to resolve, you just reprogram one to a different #.  Cab-1 also had different crystals available so different clubs in the same hall could operate with out interference, you just needed to coordinate.  CAB-1L and Legacy had channels built in.

 

As far as the same toys, that comes in play with some families where the children are the same age and they both want the same toy.  Lets say PE or Thomas basic set.

 

G

"As I mentioned earlier, Bachmann had remote controlled G gauge sets 20+ years ago."

 

Comparing the system in the Bachmann Big Hauler to LionChief is akin to comparing the Ford Model T's starting method to current starting methods on a nice Honda Civic.  The LionChief system of radio control is light years superior in reliability, versatility, etc. to the Bachmann system, which, if I recall, was infrared.  Infrared (also used in MTH sets) is strikingly less reliable and versatile than spread spectrum digital radio frequency.

 

So, not to beat a dead horse too severely, the comparison is not a good one.

 

The radio frequency communication method in use in LionChief/LionChief Plus is superior to anything currently in use with three rail trains, Legacy included.  The software and hardware for Legacy are much more capable at present, but this is to keep costs down for LionChief, and to keep things simple for beginners.

 

 

"As far as the same toys, that comes in play with some families where the children are the same age and they both want the same toy.  Lets say PE or Thomas basic set."

 

That issue should be resolvable with a multi-loco remote.   Changing up which loco is controlled by which remote/transmitter with a 2.4GHz R/C system like LionChief should be incredibly simple.  Just press a button on the remote and hold it in the presence of the loco in question.  Much simpler, faster and easier than reprogramming a TMCC/PS2 etc. loco or changing cab-1 crystals if Lionel implements this properly.  But we will have to see.  If they do it right, it will be the simplest, least expensive, most reliable remote command control available in the hobby.

       
       


Ted, people with an attitude like yours make me sick. Yes, many people do make poor choices but to paint everyone with that brush is just plain ignorant.  Unfortunately it's all too common in our society today.  Do you realize that there ARE circumstances beyond some people's control?  No, because it's easy for you to sit there and judge others with your ignorance.  I'll bet you'd sing a different tune if you found yourself in such a situation.  And don't give me the "I would work my *** off until I got out of it" line either.  Some people can't, due to an accident or some other issue outside of their control.  So get your head out of your *** and try to have a little compassion for others.  Remember, karma is a witch.

Well Mike I hope you recover from your sickness.

 

While you are so high up on your soap box, take this in.

 

I could have easily been one of those less fortunate. Where to start... oh yea, lets start with having to do things that no human should have to while serving as one of the finest (USMC). They didn't fix the drinking problem that stemmed from out little vacations in exotic places with guns, I did. Then I educated myself (on my dime) and worked. At 35 I had my first heart attack, undiagnosed genetic defect. At 36 I had my second. At 38 I had my third and a 4XCABG. I was told I was a dead man walking, maybe two years to live and would never return to work. I collected exactly three disability checks and sent the fourth back so I could return to work. I worked and re educated myself (again on my dime). At 45 I had number four. At 46 I had number 5 and 47 we had real fun and mixed a stroke in there. We followed that up with our friend, heart attack number six at 48. Just in case you studied new math, that is 6 (six) heart attacks and a stroke in 13 or so years. In that time I collected three (3) disability checks.

 

My status has not changed. What is left of my heart barely moves blood and I could drop while typing this. Yet, I find a way each day to go out and bottle feed my calves, clean the barn and then sit in my office for a few hours. I collect a paycheck and earn every dime of it.

 

Sure, there are circumstances we cannot control, but we can control OUR circumstance.

 

Welcome to reality. Hope you are done being 'sick' now.

 

Ted

Add to that, I found a way to play with Lionel trains... ON MY DIME.

 

Ted

Ted, wow very impressive!   And I am sorry for your physical challenges.   Very few could overcome what you are dealing with, you are an inspiration!

 

Myself, I have a heart condition and diabetes, and I have to spend 3 hours commuting each day.   But I also am working full time, and saving to retire early, not on a disability retirement.   Not much time at the moment for trains, but this forum helps.

 

Best wishes and thoughts for more years ahead, Ted.

 

PS, thanks for your service in the Marines.   I did seven years in the army (infantry and signal corp).

Thanks, Ken. Fun with guns in scenic ports of call right? lol! 

 

Back on topic...

 

I personally think that finding a way to cut costs and grab the attention of a new, tech savvy group of users is good for Lionel long term.

 

But... I also think that the time of the train as a 'big attraction' is gone for the most part, never to be recovered.

 

Why? Well it is simple. Up until say the Vietnam fun with guns people had real interaction with trains. In the early days, trains made towns and everyone saw them. Afterwards, when little Johnny went off to war it was via train mostly and people were there to see them off. Trains were just part of life that was an amazement for some and a love for others. Today, lol trains are just the thing that blocks the road when we are busy rushing here and there in our self inflicted servitude to spending dollars. They are an irritation to many... Hard to up-sell that...

 

Ted

Bachmann had RF control back then. So yes, it is a perfect comparison. 20 years later and they've gone to spread spectrum... I would hope they would have made some improvement. Lionel did not break any new ground with LionChief. It isn't innovate like TMCC, DCS, or Legacy were. It has less capability and worse sounds. It is simply a low cost offering. Which is fine. But to say it is innovative isn't accurate. You can find nearly the same wireless RF technology in a battery powered train set that runs on plastic track.

 

I will not buy a battery operated locomotive or a train set. Batteries are expensive and can leak over time even the rechargeable ones. Give me a ZW any day. With proper care it will last many life times.

Uh I have never heard much of a problem with LiPo/Li-Ion/NiMH etc.. leaking, at least when handled right... then it was an auger in from 500 feet... That plane is no mo! Lol.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting powering trains with traditional cylindrical batteries.

 

Ted

"20 years later and they've gone to spread spectrum."

 

Spread spectrum digital command control.  It's a big difference from Bachmann's Big Hauler's simple RF control.  Most importantly, you can independently control any number of individual locomotives on a layout or loop.  Not possible with Bachmann's system. 

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree whether Lionel's use of this technology is innovative or a difference maker.  To my eye it's a very significant difference, perhaps not of the magnitude of TMCC or DCC, but the next best thing.  It lowers the incremental cost of entry into command control to next to nothing, as compared with the price of a conventional only loco with an electronic or mechanical E unit, and is significantly cheaper and a substantially better RF link compared with TMCC/Legacy/DCS.