I always knew that Mike was a smart guy. There is more to life than toy trains. He has been a dynamic force in the industry for a very long time. I remember him back in the Yellow Hall at York selling Williams tinplate at his booth next to Walter Matuch when Walter and Susie were selling tee shirts. I have Mike's first Railking steam engine. It was always fun dealing with him, Midge, Andy, Rich and the rest of the gang. Mike has a passion for trains which is unequaled in the industry. I too am hoping that someone will purchase the company and continue the product line. All the best Mike!!
Congrats Mike! Hopefully the company will survive somehow even if broken up into new smaller companies. After all, more competition is a good thing and MTH like them or hate them, gave the consumer more choices and forced Lionel to up their game. For that, I will be forever grateful.
So how does this new DCS company relate, if at all, to the current MTH employees who are going to be making and selling parts into the future, mentioned in some post somewhere or the other?
Well that news about the dcs system support is certainly welcome. And that announcement is minty fresh. It wasn't there a couple hours ago!
I think the last person that had Mike's passion and drive with toy trains was J.L Cowen during his tenure with Lionel back in the day. Mike definatly got big "L" off its duff to up their game. He drove the industry just as Josh did in the Prewar and Postwar eras. I wish him many good years in retirement to enjoy whatever pastimes he enjoys, both trains and otherwise. Cheers. AD
End of the hobby? The Death of 3-rail?
Please, people, get a grip.
I have been in the rain hobby for 56 years, more or less, and I have never used an MTH item. (Last train piece I bought did begin with an M: it was Marx.) I am pretty sure that I can enjoy trains for the rest of my years without one.
MTH isn't the hobby. WE are the hobby. And there are literally tons and tons of trains out there to acquire, many still new. There are other manufacturers still making 3-rail trains.
May Mike be blessed, but the hobby will survive without him as it was born without him.
@breezinup posted:Well, there are different products for different people, but there are a lot of folks who don't share your view about the superiority of DCS. That is an interesting point, though, as to whether DCS continues to be a proprietary product, a part of MW's hangup about sharing anything. It's hard to know what the provisions are of the contract with the purchasers, and whether there will be continued restrictions, but it seems it would be very advantageous for them to be able to offer the technology to others.
But to whom? Atlas O, WBB and 3rd Rail are the only other companies still producing new O gauge products other than Lionel, and, except for WBB (which seems content to stay in the traditional market), the others are already married to Lionel and unlikely to switch to a small, limited operation company with an unknown future, to supply their command control systems.
Fair statements. As most of my reading has been MTH centered, tHess are the key points I have rEast. It is always good to have other viewpoints. Thank you.
As Lou1985 has mentioned, what if the industry finally consolidated control systems and made a combo based on DCS and Legacy. It would be intriguing.
As I am a spectator in this event just like almost everyone else, it will be interesting to see what the future holds. Too many of us have investments we don’t want to give up. Fear and uncertainty causes us to formulate all kinds of opinions. We can only hope to outcome is one that will help us enjoy this hobby for many years to come.
@Carl Peduzzi posted:
As Lou1985 has mentioned, what if the industry finally consolidated control systems and made a combo based on DCS and Legacy. It would be intriguing.
DCS can already control TMCC/Legacy with an adapter cable. My suggestion was to have DCC control built into the TIU. That way the system can control both DCS and DCC and therefore would be appealing to those in other scales, who have standardized on DCC. That would be a way to keep the new company afloat and increase sales outside of 3 rail O.
I work in Facilities Management at a major university in New York. Part of my time is spent dealing with building management systems that control HVAC, lighting, security, etc.
Several years ago, the controls industry realized that they needed standardization if they were going to survive.
Hello BAC-NET. The platform allows all mfr's equipment to be controlled by any system out there that's BAC-net compatible.
My point is that a universal control system that works across all platforms is long overdue in model trains. This could be the opportunity for an enterprising engineer to develop that system.......
Thoughts?
@NS1975 posted:I wonder what is going to happen to their mobile app once the company closes. I don't see how it could continue to work properly or at all. I had the Time Warner security system and once they folded my app for the security system almost immediately disappeared and my equipment stopped working due to no updates.
Good point NS1975
I'd be in for a legacy style remote that would control both legacy trains and MTH stuff in command mode. If you threw in DCC, great if not I could care less.
@RSJB18 posted:I work in Facilities Management at a major university in New York. Part of my time is spent dealing with building management systems that control HVAC, lighting, security, etc.
Several years ago, the controls industry realized that they needed standardization if they were going to survive.Hello BAC-NET. The platform allows all mfr's equipment to be controlled by any system out there that's BAC-net compatible.
My point is that a universal control system that works across all platforms is long overdue in model trains. This could be the opportunity for an enterprising engineer to develop that system.......
Thoughts?
Yes, it already exists and is called the DCC protocol. Every other scale/gauge uses this including 2 Rail O.
Thanks for the good news, Dave.
Regards, Bob
@breezinup posted:... Will there be another Richard Kughn to ride to the rescue? Doubtful. There may be something that could happen now that the word's out, but even so it would be very surprising if MTH would continue in anything like it's present form...
My guess / speculation is that everyone who might be a potential "Richard Kughn" has already been spoken with, privately.
And remember that Kughn bought a company which owned the most recognizable name in the world of toys, which evoked an emotional reaction for millions of people. As great as the company might be, how many people outside of trains have heard of MTH?
I'm not sure that I understand how the announcement enhances the value of what he could sell MTH for. Seems like more behind-the-scenes work could have been done. Would be interesting to know the thought process behind it.
@TexasSP posted:Yes, it already exists and is called the DCC protocol. Every other scale/gauge uses this including 2 Rail O.
True, but DCC is a 40 year old technology that is anything but user friendly.
People would also be wise to re-think any further purchases of MTH track, especially their O gauge offerings. What company is going to pick up and support the manufacture of a full line of plastic-bed O gauge track?
Mike probably would not have happened except for Jerry Williams who revitalized the train industry. Mike took it to the next level. I have been amazed that both Lionel and MTH have been able to survive given the aging of the Boomers. I bought Mike's Dash 8-40 but generally have bought Lionel, K Line, Williams over the years. I do have his Dreyfuss Hudson.
Mike,
Best of luck on your well-earned retirement.
Thank you for your contributions to our hobby - especially the PRR electrics!!! 
Jim
@jonnyspeed posted:True, but DCC is a 40 year old technology that is anything but user friendly.
Hardly an accurate statement. DCC is a standard protocol. Modern versions do everything DCS and Legacy does and then some. The interfaces have also become very user friendly and you can mix and match.
The first systems were also about 30 years ago not 40.
It's obvious you have no current DCC experience. Talk to the 2 rail guys and they can show you how far DCC has come. Also the base of Legacy which is TMCC is almost 30 years old as well.
@Lou1985 posted:DCS can already control TMCC/Legacy with an adapter cable.
Let's not overstate the case. You did forget that you also need the TMCC/Legacy command system to connect to the other end of that cable! All DCS does is create the TMCC/Legacy commands to send over to the Lionel command system. Other PC based applications also do the same thing, think e-Train.
@Will Ebbert posted:As much as I like Lionel, I really hope another company takes over MTH. The competition drives innovation in the hobby.
To put it another way, prevents one near-monopoly company from purveying poorly done crap ...
Just saw this on Facebook .wow...can't believe it...bought my first mth rail king challenger in 96.... Didn't know of mth back then .but he was putting a whopping on Lionel's on the market and made Lionel drop there prices to be competitive to mth....hope somebody buys him out...or where toast in replacement parts and Lionel marking there prices backup...😡
I guess Covid-19 is no longer a concern.
I hope that we can get our trains fixed before our time comes for the big roundhouse in the sky, and the beat goes on lotty dotty dee...
@TexasSP posted:Hardly an accurate statement. DCC is a standard protocol. Modern versions do everything DCS and Legacy does and then some. The interfaces have also become very user friendly and you can mix and match.
The first systems were also about 30 years ago not 40.
It's obvious you have no current DCC experience. Talk to the 2 rail guys and they can show you how far DCC has come. Also the base of Legacy which is TMCC is almost 30 years old as well.
- You shouldn't have to WORRY about having a DEAD loco --because the PROPRIETARY electronics to repair it are no longer available, or or are too EXPENSIVE.
- There is already a video on Youtube -- showing an MTH O gauge DCS to DCC conversion ( https://youtu.be/6OA5sOg5EFo )
- Bonus 1: Once you have DCC, you are no longer dependent on any ONE manufacturer and whatever high prices they choose to charge.
- You now have MANY DCC manufacturers from which to choose.
- Bonus 2: Automatic Control capability: I'm not sure anyone in this group is interested, but with an NCE DCC "Mini-Panel" (a simple, programmable automatic train controller, $49 list price), you can do fun and simple AUTOMATIC CONTROL scenarios.
- ~~~~~~~~
- The AutoControls.org 3-Rail O-gauge DCC Youtube playlist ( https://www.youtube.com/playli...p3iUAkOo_cdp5mNDsoFl ) shows several automatic control demonstrations done in 3-rail O gauge, using MTH Proto-3 locos, controlled by the NCE Mini-Panel.
https://youtu.be/J2RWOI7htf4
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Unless an investor like a Richard Kughn or Neil Young is there to step in, it is all over and it's like losing of an old friend. MTH is a small business created by a visionary entrepreneur and like so many such organizations when that leader leaves, for what ever reason, that organization usually is no longer viable. I suspect that Mike has looked at the demographics and sees that the market is shrinking as would potential investors. Sadly trains, to younger generations, are a forgotten form of transportation and the models of them only take up valuable space. Their world is Virtual Reality and not the 3 dimensional things that we enjoy and remember. I have been a MTH fan since the first UP Challenger with PS1 and will be sad to see it all go away, but the same can be said for K-line and Weaver's neat trains. I quess that I'm just getting old.
@Tinplate Art posted:SB1-48: Your take above is rather too generally simplistic and relies on assumptive cliches about both the economics and enthusiast preferences. Three rail trains are not being relegated to the dust bin of history anytime soon!
Agreed, given that the 2-rail alternative doesn't work for space challenged operators who also like big locomotives.
This is a shocker indeed ! I'm with GunRunner John.
This does not bode well for the long term life of MTH product, with far more frequent problems with complex products dependent on electronic components. Broken down trains may become throw away trains! Unlike the purely mechanical trains that can be fixed with simple tools. I agree as well, I'm buying nothing from MTH that has an engine in it !
Parts availability, repairs and off warranty service for historic product may become a nightmare.
Yikes! Kyle
@jonnyspeed posted:True, but DCC is a 40 year old technology that is anything but user friendly.
TexasSP
Hardly an accurate statement. DCC is a standard protocol. Modern versions do everything DCS and Legacy does and then some. The interfaces have also become very user friendly and you can mix and match.
The first systems were also about 30 years ago not 40.
It's obvious you have no current DCC experience. Talk to the 2 rail guys and they can show you how far DCC has come. Also the base of Legacy which is TMCC is almost 30 years old as well.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Well said and 100% accurate. Decoder Pro is just as easy to use for me as it is scrolling through the DCS menus. And it’s FREE!
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Let's not overstate the case. You did forget that you also need the TMCC/Legacy command system to connect to the other end of that cable! All DCS does is create the TMCC/Legacy commands to send over to the Lionel command system. Other PC based applications also do the same thing, think e-Train.
Oh I know that's how it works. I was assuming that others would as well, but I should have included that information, for those unfamiliar with how the system works.
@RSJB18 posted:I work in Facilities Management at a major university in New York. Part of my time is spent dealing with building management systems that control HVAC, lighting, security, etc.
Several years ago, the controls industry realized that they needed standardization if they were going to survive.Hello BAC-NET. The platform allows all mfr's equipment to be controlled by any system out there that's BAC-net compatible.
My point is that a universal control system that works across all platforms is long overdue in model trains. This could be the opportunity for an enterprising engineer to develop that system.......
Thoughts?
Airwire BPRC DCC. Looks like an opportunity for some outfit to step up and offer a package at a reasonable (I laugh)price.
@Kyle Miller posted:This is a shocker indeed ! I'm with GunRunner John.
This does not bode well for the long term life of MTH product, with far more frequent problems with complex products dependent on electronic components. Broken down trains may become throw away trains! Unlike the purely mechanical trains that can be fixed with simple tools. I agree as well, I'm buying nothing from MTH that has an engine in it !
Parts availability, repairs and off warranty service for historic product may become a nightmare.
Yikes! Kyle
Mechanically the stuff is just as robust if not more so than old all mechanical trains. If the electronics die and you don't want to convert to some other kind of command control (TMCC or DCC) you can stick a standard reverse unit from Dallee in, or if you want forward only a bridge rectifier, and be on your way.
Thanks Lou, true enough - I'm running TMCC and Legacy
We saw an updated announcement about an MTH tech team taking on support and development of DCS. For me, removes my concern for failing electronics. I'm sure there are a number of original DCS developers ready to take this on. What I expect I will miss are products produced in my favorite road names and colors. Lionel is not very diverse in this area. 
If you model SP, UP, NYC, PRR, no problem for you. 
Okay a friend forward this to me, and I'm sure a lot of you have gotten it.
Received this e-mail from Muffin's Trains, good news if it holds up.
DCS/Proto-Sound Lives On
June 9, 2020 - With the scheduled closing of M.T.H. Electric Trains next year, support for the DCS Digital Command System and the Proto-Sound 3.0 onboard locomotive systems will continue through a new independent company headed up by current M.T.H. staff once direct M.T.H. support for the systems concludes on June 1, 2021.
The new tech company will continue to manufacture and provide support including any necessary software updates to the DCS hardware or DCS WiFi App. In fact, new and exciting product ideas are currently under development.
The DCS System controls any Proto-Sound 2.0 and later equipped locomotives and first debuted 18 years ago. It has been an integral part of the M.T.H. product line family since its inception and its continuation beyond the closing of M.T.H. is an important part of the transition envisioned by retiring M.T.H. president Mike Wolf.
As the retirement transition process moves forward, more details about the new company's creation and ongoing development of M.T.H.'s technology packages will be announced. Stay tuned.
To me that is good news to you who have the MTH engines. I'm more interested in seeing if they or someone else is going to continue the rolling stock.
I would say that that's good news, but its in Comic Sans, so terrible news 0/10
Yes dcc is the standard in HO and is also old tech just as tmcc is old tech. Their is also railpro and it is two way communication like dcs and is more user friendly like dcs. They also have battery capability and decoders for o scale. Esu has a very nice remote that uses a friendly phone type interface screen with four hard assignable buttons and a dial type wheel for speed control. Almost all dcc decoder manufacturers have boards designed for o guage trains. Soundtraxxs and esu have them and as mentioned railpro does also.
The problem is the three rail track and the way the wheels pick up track power. Yes most mth preimer engines have the 3-2 capability and you can easily swap the wheel sets for scale two rail track if preferred. This is gets very costly to the average ogauge operator to convert to dcc if you have lots of mth engines. Then thiers railking stuff. There is no way of making it two rail compatible for dcc that I am aware of easily. When I say two rail dcc compatible I am talking about isolating the engines wheel sets for track polarity. Premier engines have that covered.
Plus dcs was very user friendly more so than dcc. No CV's to change and no speed matching to do when running multiple locos together and the two way communication was ahead of its time when introduced. Dcs still has a lot left on the table as far as operation goes. Their is so much dcs with its two way communication could have done and still can be done by its new owners.
I like the size and the heft of o guage trains and to me they are easier to work on than HO or N. HO trains as well detailed and prototypicaly accurate as they are seem like if and when an engine breaks it becomes throwaway or at best a shelf queen. So I hold out optimism that some one will buy the company and continue to build on what mike started. He makes a lot of models lionel has yet to even make or touch. That said if no new mth product is made at least it seems dcs will still live on some how. So in the emordal words of sheldon cooper. It's O guage or no guage for me thanks.
@Hudson J1e posted:TexasSP
Hardly an accurate statement. DCC is a standard protocol. Modern versions do everything DCS and Legacy does and then some. The interfaces have also become very user friendly and you can mix and match.
The first systems were also about 30 years ago not 40.
It's obvious you have no current DCC experience. Talk to the 2 rail guys and they can show you how far DCC has come. Also the base of Legacy which is TMCC is almost 30 years old as well.
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Well said and 100% accurate. Decoder Pro is just as easy to use for me as it is scrolling through the DCS menus. And it’s FREE!
I just watched the video, and I was impressed. My concern with the video is that it doesn’t really compare DCS to DCC. It compares the DCC on the DCS decoder being run on a DCC system. How does pure DCC, running on a pourers DCC system compare to a DCS loco in DCS running off a TIU. That would be a fair comparison.
The other issue I have is that it is running on 2 rail, while DCS was designed for 3 rail as a vast majority of layouts are in O-scale. I would love to see a true comparison DCS 3 rail v. DCC 3 rail. If someone has a video like that, I would love to see it. Honestly, I would love to learn more.
What I am truly thinking (hoping) is that DCS becomes a 3 rail standard. There must be a reason to stick with DCS and spin it off as a separate entity. Or, at least, a vision of what it can become. I am not saying that DCS can or will survive in the long run, and maybe DCC will ultimately win out. Who knows? Mike has a vision, and we will looking forward to new announcements to see where that vision is taking DCS.
Sad to hear for many reasons. Most of my motive power is MTH. Lionel only makes a few engines in my road name. Hope someone buys them and keeps it going.
Andy
@Oman posted:We saw an updated announcement about an MTH tech team taking on support and development of DCS. For me, removes my concern for failing electronics. I'm sure there are a number of original DCS developers ready to take this on. What I expect I will miss are products produced in my favorite road names and colors. Lionel is not very diverse in this area.
I saw that as well. I agree it makes me feel better about my investment in DCS TIU and 13 engines. I do have 2 Legacy engines and a TMCC base and controller, so I can expand there if there isn't anything DCS available that I want in the future.
I still have the first “J” and the first NYC Hudson Mike/MTH released and his book about MTH signed by him when he was at Catoctin Mountain Trains in Thurmont MD nice guy and really great products. He will be missed! I do have a question about the PRR P5a Shells that have the Zinc Rot issue, will they still be replaced? Got an email from Midge that my name is on the list but no other information?
Glad to hear and good for him, he’s earned it and let the man retire in peace.
On a positive note, MTH trains are compatible with Lionel rolling stock and on modern Fastrack.
The company could be handed off to someone new, like how Horizon Hobbies operates ATHEARN.
Andrew
This is always my fear when a notable company is run/owned by one person. Why not create a corp or sell to a capital firm but keep the branding one spent decades building? Lionel is owned by a capital firm.
@falconservice posted:The company could be handed off to someone new, like how Horizon Hobbies operates ATHEARN.
Andrew
@Mike W. posted:This is always my fear when a notable company is run/owned by one person. Why not create a corp or sell to a capital firm but keep the branding one spent decades building? Lionel is owned by a capital firm.
It's all up to Mike as to what he's going to do. All the speculation from outsiders in the world isn't going to change that.
Rusty
Whatever entity takes over MTH should take a good hard look at why Lionel brought out LC with the substantial established TMCC/Legacy user base.
@justin p posted:Sad to see this happen, I can already hear Lionel the Lions stomach growling, they're gonna pounce on MTH and buy a lot/ or at least any tooling they can get their paws on.
Really? Can you give me 1 good reason why Lionel would even entertain any thought of buying MTH?
Their number one competitor just announce that they are going to fold. Lionel's best move is to sit back light a victory cigar and pour themselves a large drink and slap each other on the back. Declare victory without having fired a shot.
@justin p posted:Sad to see this happen, I can already hear Lionel the Lions stomach growling, they're gonna pounce on MTH and buy a lot/ or at least any tooling they can get their paws on.
The people at Lionel are still working the old Weaver Models line into the new LionScale.
They have their hands full with that operation.
Andrew
@joseywales posted:Just saw this on Facebook .wow...can't believe it...bought my first mth rail king challenger in 96.... Didn't know of mth back then .but he was putting a whopping on Lionel's on the market and made Lionel drop there prices to be competitive to mth....hope somebody buys him out...or where toast in replacement parts and Lionel marking there prices backup...😡
Lionel's prices are high now. They raise them every year.
I haven't read the whole thread but my sympathies are with the employees. I am sure Mike was amply rewarded for his efforts during his tenure as owner of the company and the employees made that possible. His focus now should be on the employees and their continued employment. A sale of the company to the employees would be possible. It would be a matter left to the lawyers but it has been done before. If I remember correctly the C&NW was an employee buyout and it seems to have worked. If the employees buy the company and obviously continue operations, everyone wins.
Just a thought.
Ed
@feet posted:Lionel's prices are high now. They raise them every year.
One of the reaons I have not been ordering like I used to, retired now and the old discreationary income is not what it was. well it was a great ride, I can honestly say Mike Wolf rocked the train world big time. I can see him now going to sea in Tony's L,s big boat along with Dan Marino.
I thank you for the ride Mike.
John Pignatelli
@Ed Kelly posted:I haven't read the whole thread but my sympathies are with the employees. I am sure Mike was amply rewarded for his efforts during his tenure as owner of the company and the employees made that possible. His focus now should be on the employees and their continued employment. A sale of the company to the employees would be possible. It would be a matter left to the lawyers but it has been done before. If I remember correctly the C&NW was an employee buyout and it seems to have worked. If the employees buy the company and obviously continue operations, everyone wins.
Just a thought.
Ed
I'm sure Mike Wolf is checking the OGR board for disposition advice hourly...
The C&NW had a heck of a lot more employees to spread the risk and "employee owned" lasted 13 years until the C&NW Corporation was formed in 1985.
Rusty
@Hudson J1e posted:Also the base of Legacy which is TMCC is almost 30 years old as well.
The first mass produced cars were the Model-T, but that doesn't mean they've come a long way and are greatly improved. 
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:I have very fond memories at the Aberdeen Hobby Shop. That was my LHS for many years. I met Mike there in 2003-ish when he was showing off the new Premier GG-1s. Mike signed a MTH hat for me, which I still have to this day. I miss the era when Marvin and Arlene were running the store. It's not the same without them.
I don't know if you knew John, the repair and upgrade specialist for them. He left after Arlene sold the business and now has a small hobby shop out of his place in Hazlet, NJ.
I surely have a lot memories from that store. After I received my first MTH set which was a Santa Fe F3 freight set and seeing MTH products on I Love Toy Trains including the Columbia, MD HQ showroom layout, I quickly fell in love with that brand. Sad to see the original owners of The Hobby Shop go and now MTH
What is LC?
@Miles W. Rich posted:What is LC?
Lion Chief. A control system Lionel is using for their starter sets.
Most of my engines are mth most of the time it 6 months to get a train
repaired cant think how long it will take now if it can even be do anymore
@Miles W. Rich posted:What is LC?
Lion Chief? I'm just guessing.
Thank you Mike for turning a passion into a business that lifted up everyone in the hobby. Best wishes on your new endeavors!
As far as rampant speculation goes, if I had a nickel for every theory on this I could buy more trains.
Seriously, who knows what will happen?
If I were to wager on meaningless conjecture ...
- No one will buy the company whole when they can pick the bits off the bones at a discount later. Same reason my local hobby shop closed instead of being sold. Nobody wanted "the business", just a few pieces of it and the inventory. --Negotiations for some of those bits have likely already happened. -- Wild guess makes me think someone in Germany will buy the European line. -- Chinese will sit on as much tooling as possible, then turn it into cheaper knock off junk versions of what were once good products. -- Harley Davidson will still struggle with long term declining sales trends on shifting generational turnover. Oh, and model train manufacturers will too. Those of us still around when the current trend arc comes to an end will be able to score a lot of amazing prototypes on the secondary market that will never be made again. -- In the end nobody really cares what I think about it.-- Finally, We will all be grateful that we were part of the Second Great Golden Age of O Scale Model Railroading. -- We're going to miss it when it's gone.
Till then, I'm just going to enjoy the holybajeezus out of my train collection.
Good luck Mike. Thanks.
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...0#146142158404264270
Who did Lionel buy Lion Chief from. The original question was why did they buy Lion Chief when they had TMCC and Legacy and I am sure the reason was cost, and marketing. Lionel charges a good chunk of change for Legacy and Sunset charges a good bit for the TMCC/Odyssey system they bought from Lionel, and if they had put TMCC in their lower priced sets, they wouldn't have been able to charge as much for Legacy as they do, plus I am sure Lionchief is much cheaper to produce.
MTH is an established brand and has had a highly visible presence in O gauge trains for at least twenty-five years. As far back as I can recall there consistently have been at least two catalogs per year and local hobby shops nationwide where you could just walk in and buy an MTH model off the shelf. That’s why it’s difficult for me to realize that the brand and trademark may just vanish from the marketplace. It’s as though Ford Motor just announced that it will cease vehicle production next June. A little hard to grasp. If you said to me that a smaller company (say Weaver) was closing its doors and walking away from the market, the impact would be significant but not huge. But MTH is the only real competitor to Lionel and is a huge presence in the market. So, what will the market be like if there are no new trains from MTH? Difficult to conceive of it.
MELGAR
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...4#146142158405113124
Melgar, Weaver did close its doors several years ago. Mike made some great stuff, but his Proto 1 ended up to be very troublesome, even though it was QSI that made it for MTH. But he over produced trains just like Lionel did, and they together "killed the goose that laid the golden egg". They are making this stuff in China, yet keep raising the price to a level that people are not going to buy much of it. Mike had problems in Korea too with zinc pest; I do not know if that problem exists with any of the stuff made in China. I am sure someone will buy the rights to produce some of the products, but how many Big Boys can you make and sell, and people like me that bought his early stuff are either converting it to TMCC or Proto 3, which may go away, or trying to sell it and we are getting a lot less than we paid for it. When it comes to rolling stock, you can pick up some nice MTH premiem cars for $20-30 on ebay. Why pay $65.00 for a new box car?
"Who did Lionel buy Lion Chief from. "
I'm pretty certain they developed it from existing technology but in house. They have not made it available except as part of their products or allowed anyone to make it as an after market product. I don't know that they have patented it, but one could search.
It is definitely cheaper to manufacturer. You can buy a loco with LionChief for less than an HO loco with DCC. Rough rule of thumb in other scales is $100 more for DCC than DC, and another $100 more for digital sounds. For $200 you can get an inexpensive Lionel diesel with LionChief (the equivalent of DCC command basic control) and basic sounds. Gives you a rough idea of the costs.
The Train hobby is an Old Guy thing....let’s face it. And we are dying off...like yester years Flathead engine. Today’s video games occupy the under 40 crowd...not model trains. But I will enjoy what trains I have....and haven’t made any new purchases in a long time....but my 14 year old nephew likes the hobby.
Wow, just hope Lionel does not get in the mix and mess things up. The prices will go up and they are afraid of two rail.
@Nessmuck posted:The Train hobby is an Old Guy thing....let’s face it. And we are dying off...like yester years Flathead engine. Today’s video games occupy the under 40 crowd...not model trains. But I will enjoy what trains I have....and haven’t made any new purchases in a long time....but my 14 year old nephew likes the hobby.
I agree for O gauge that we are older and dying off but disagree for other scales. I once asked a hobby shop owner what he thought the state of the hobby was (about 18 months ago) and he said “The hobby is doing great (accounting for all scales) but hobby shops are an endangered species.” His store did carry O Gauge as well as HO and N. Take it for what it’s worth but when you the see people at Trainfest and Amherst Society I find it hard to believe the hobby is going away.
Another nail in the coffin for York. The loss of dealers will make York an annual event
The HO stuff will have no problem selling. Athearn could use that C44-9W for their Genesis line. Broadway limited will probably take the rest. I could see Scaletrains purchasing the SD70Ace.
Beside MTH employees continuing the company, sadly it looks like Lionel is the only one in position to purchase the company
I'm a big fan of MTH's products and especially DCS.
At one point I had over 50 engines, but then caught the Standard Gauge bug. I sold off every piece of O scale I had and went full bore into Standard Gauge. I've had some life changes in the last few years and ended up selling off all of my Standard Gauge. The only items I kept were a Z-4000 and the DCS system. Although I keep my membership up I haven't been to York in several years.
I recently re-caught the O scale bug and have purchased 3 engines. I plan on this time around to control my buying and enjoy every item I do buy, instead of keeping any of them in boxes. I also plan on attending the next York meet. I certainly hope DCS will somehow be supported by some other entity.
It all started for me about 15 years ago. I walked into The Hobby Shop in Aberdeen NJ looking to buy a slot car set. After browsing for about an hour I walked out with a Railking starter set instead. 
Thanks Mike for what you've done for this hobby. Enjoy your retirement!
Shocking news. 2020: Pandemic, looting, political unrest, cop haters, high meat prices, no Clorex wipes, toilet paper hoarders, summer fairs cancelled, no sports to watch, jobs on the line and now MTH going out. Yeesh....
And I've been buying more new MTH engines over the past two years than ever as my rolling stock inventory has maxed out!
It's time for a little comfort food, some alcohol and running my trains in my train room where everything is okay in this world. Thanks to Mike Wolf for making this a great outlet in times of uncertainty like this. It's been fun and I am hopeful this too shall pass and my bells and whistles and smoke units keep working.
I wish Mr. Wolfe a happy retirement!
Best Regards.
Frank Swafford
@Frank Mulligan posted:I'm a big fan of MTH's products and especially DCS.
At one point I had over 50 engines, but then caught the Standard Gauge bug. I sold off every piece of O scale I had and went full bore into Standard Gauge. I've had some life changes in the last few years and ended up selling off all of my Standard Gauge. The only items I kept were a Z-4000 and the DCS system. Although I keep my membership up I haven't been to York in several years.
I recently re-caught the O scale bug and have purchased 3 engines. I plan on this time around to control my buying and enjoy every item I do buy, instead of keeping any of them in boxes. I also plan on attending the next York meet. I certainly hope DCS will somehow be supported by some other entity.
It all started for me about 15 years ago. I walked into The Hobby Shop in Aberdeen NJ looking to buy a slot car set. After browsing for about an hour I walked out with a Railking starter set instead.
Thanks Mike for what you've done for this hobby. Enjoy your retirement!
Frank, it has already been announced that a group of MTH employees will take over DCS. You can read about it here:
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...proto-sound-lives-on
Wow sorry to hear of the news. I found out on facebook. I don’t frequent OGR, maybe once a year. I would not be in the hobby had it not been for MTH, and scale wheels. I started in 3 rail with just one train set around the Christmas tree but after extensive research, as well as a visit to a local club, the train bug bit and I dove in head first into 2 rail O scale.
Mr Wolf, I wish you all the best in your retirement and thank you for your many years of commitment and innovation to the hobby as well as support of the super, super small population of 2 rail O scale folks.
Best Regards,
Michael
I still have my first dcs proto 2 engine I got in the early 2000's. still runs like new today. its trains like mth made that got me to go all in on o scale trains. except for maybe the cost young people today still love model trains and mike new that. hence the smartphone app and dcs in every part of the line not just the higher end. a good used dcs engine is sometimes less than a new HO engine with dcc. so mth will somehow someway always live on. lets just hope some one who realy has a passion for model trains and model train operation in general buys the company or most of it. maybe I should start a go fund me page online. 😉
10 pages in 1 day has to be or be close to a forum record.
-Greg
Mr. Mike Wolf,
Best of health and happiness in your upcoming retirement. Thank you, for all the fun and joy your products provided for me, my family and friends over the past 40 years and still do today. From my first MTH locomotive purchases, a Premier UP Big Boy and Premier PRR K4 in May of 1997, to my latest purchases has enhanced this great hobby for me many times over.
As a big fan of MTH products, I'll be looking forward to see what the future holds.
Heck, maybe Warren Buffett can sell BNSF and buy the MTH train manufacturing!
@sxe60 posted:Unless an investor like a Richard Kughn or Neil Young is there to step in, it is all over and it's like losing of an old friend. MTH is a small business created by a visionary entrepreneur and like so many such organizations when that leader leaves, for what ever reason, that organization usually is no longer viable. I suspect that Mike has looked at the demographics and sees that the market is shrinking as would potential investors. Sadly trains, to younger generations, are a forgotten form of transportation and the models of them only take up valuable space. Their world is Virtual Reality and not the 3 dimensional things that we enjoy and remember. I have been a MTH fan since the first UP Challenger with PS1 and will be sad to see it all go away, but the same can be said for K-line and Weaver's neat trains. I quess that I'm just getting old.
It is exactly as you say. Just look at the pictures of us in this forum, this is an grown-ups hobby...old grown-ups to be precise. People seldom see real trains and youths barely know trains exist. How can you appreciate the model of something you do not know? Lionel is in no better position
@IRON HORSE posted:Shocking news. 2020: Pandemic, looting, political unrest, cop haters, high meat prices, no Clorex wipes, toilet paper hoarders, summer fairs cancelled, no sports to watch, jobs on the line and now MTH going out. Yeesh....
Yeesh is right!! What's next for this year? Godzilla rising from the Pacific Ocean again!!??
There are some youth here. I should know i am one. The video games have even more issues with availability than the toy trains, at least you an swap out the controls and motor on an engines, you can't do that to a video game, unless you want prison time and hefty fines.
Interesting comments from so many people. An era is coming to and end. I remember when he was a kid working at York with Jerry Williams in the Purple Hall. But now I have a question. Because of Mike and MTH, Lionel was kept at bay on pricing. Even now, here they go pushing that price up and up many times for a re-issued product with a slightly newer electronics board. MTH kept their products at a straight price. In 2000, their Premier Big Boy was $1,399.99 and later, in the 2010's it was $1,499.99 (these are approximations) Back in 1990 I remember Lionel trying to raise those prices on their newer products which Mike then was helping to produce. But in 1995, MTH released a locomotive that shocked the O gauge/scale world, a highly detailed, die-cast UP Challenger and it was priced $1,399.99. Lionel's prices had to start coming back down or MTH would have put them out back then. Both companies had been keeping their pricing fairly standard since then but, as we all see, Lionel is starting that price push again. They are now at $2,100.00 for many locomotives all because they load a little bit more electronic function to it.. My father once said that if it weren't for MTH during the first decade of this century (my father had a hobby shop then) Lionel's prices woud ahve been twice and maybe in some cases three times higher because of the name. MTH kept them at bay. No one else could do it. 3rd Rail - different market, Weaver, Atlas - too small, K-Line was coming on but they got put out 15 years ago so there is no one to challenge Lionel UNLESS, as Mike alluded to, some of his employees, some of whom have been with him for decades and know the business by now as good as he does, can continue under a new name or such. A lot of options are on the board. Like GunrunnerJohn said, I am a bit concerned about getting service and replacement parts for DCS. I guess it's time to go through and put Legacy in everything? Legacy is really good, equal to DCS, but there are still a few things that you can do with DCS that you cannot do with Legacy and the one thing I really like is the ability to customize your individual volumes. Another story for another time. As Pete said above, maybe Lionel would buy the DCS system and rights and be able to offer it like ERR. ERR is Lionel, so why is 3rd Rail doing it? Just weird!!!
MTH lived up to its slogan of “Quality in the tradition you remember”. Their product line offered more variety than their competitors and I have many of their steam locomotives with the last one, Premier Union Pacific Challenger no. 3943, purchased from a dealer just last week. Likely it will be the last MTH locomotive purchased new. It seems safe to say no one will make a steam locomotive smokestack function like MTH!
I wish Mr. Wolf the best in retirement and sincere appreciation for what he brought to our hobby. I also wish MTH staff health and prosperity in their future endeavors.
@Traindiesel posted:Yeesh is right!! What's next for this year? Godzilla rising from the Pacific Ocean again!!??
Saw a meme that included a picture of a man drinking coffee at the breakfast table; the caption read: "I wonder which chapter of Revelation we're living today."
@palallin posted:An attempt to inject a smidgeon of humor: have you bought a Mercury lately?
(Or an Olds or a Plymouth?)
True....change is the only constant. But rather than loosing OLDS this is more like loosing GM whole!!! An entire segment is going to close. And like in the automotive world loosing GM would be very bad for the industry.....loosing MTH will be too.
MTH and Mike is why I switched to O3r back when Mike brought out the N&W J 611 in RK. If I didn't have a basement full of O scale layout I may have my excuse to go back to HO......Sad day....
More thoughts –
I would think Lionel would be interested the later MTH car molds due to the fact they can be converted to 2r.
Also, restore the Lion Scale – Weaver cars by acquiring the correct Weaver - Roller bearing and Bettendorph truck lines that MTH gets from the original supplier.
The DCS, software and electronics piece of the pie is already planned and taken by the other MTH VP’s. Mike probably gave them that entity so they could carry on and reach their retirement eligibility time frame. Whoever buys the engine pieces will have to buy DCS from that new company group I suppose. Probably a good strategic move.
I really don’t want Lionel getting into too many MTH items, their prices are too high and Quality issues have been a concern by consumers as well. The train selling market pricing has surpassed the average majority of consumers budget. The hobby has leaned more for the well to do. Suppliers can’t seem to establish a cost-effective way to bring it back in line. Unless you can do so, any acquisition in these times would be very risky.
On the other hand, Mike as I did with a former business knew when to say when. I hate to say it, I believe the writings on the wall folks. Let’s see where we all are in about three years after the smoke has settled.
@MELGAR posted:It’s as though Ford Motor just announced that it will cease vehicle production next June. A little hard to grasp.
MELGAR
@palallin posted:An attempt to inject a smidgeon of humor: have you bought a Mercury lately?
No, I was absolutely serious. The loss of new MTH model trains (even if they are reruns) will affect the O gauge market in ways that can only be guessed at right now. I may not have bought an Edsel lately, but many people have bought an F-150.
MELGAR
Perhaps also what didnt help MTH was to try and produce a Trump train made in China. In these "tariff war" days, imagine President Xi walking through a factory producing these?
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...4#146142158424073734
As a former business owner, I also knew when it was time to leave it.. the difference then was I sold the company and retired, For MW to just walk away there had to be other mitigating circumstances such as debt greater then company value or ownership of tooling in China. not in MTH possession to sell.. Whatever the case its a shocker for the hobby. I wish MW well in retirement.
At least these ten pages in two days so far would be encouragement for a prospective MTH buyer.
I've been recitant in commenting on the MTH closure. First of all,I wish Mike Wolf all the best with his retirement. I'm very close to retiring myself as we are the same age and I full understand about slowing down and enjoying those "Golden Years". Like many of us,MTH was the reason we returned to the hobby,for me,it was in 1999 after seeing MTH in action at a Cincinnati train shop while on business. I immediately jumped in big time buying nearly every big Premier steam engine till no more new tooling was produced. I still have most of those steam locomotives and most (Samhongsa made) still run like new. I also have most of the Premier MOPAC Diesels and Passenger Cars and will aways cherish those beautiful MTH items.
Hopefully,the tooling for all these trains will end up in good hands. I can see Kader (Bachmann)taking over all or part of the line. Like some have mentioned,Menards might be a good fit for continuing the Rugged Rails or Railking Line, I'm not ruling out Lionel buying everything, The MTH HO line would be a great fit (The Challenger and UP turbines were originally Lionel HO but that's another story that does not need repeating). I also could see Broadway Limited taking the HO and Premier lines - Let's not rule that possibility out. BLI is a HUGE mover and shaker in the industry,like MTH was.
Those are my thoughts. Thank you Mike and all the crew at MTH for helping make this hobby the "World's Greatest"
Ricky
Here are some of my MTH Premier Steam locos. These shelves are no longer up as the train room is getting a makeover and all new shelving going up will be Snyder extruded aluminum.
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Talk about being out of it. Haven't visited the forum in a few days and then just happen to see an advertising email from Mario's Trains in my inbox about MTH closing which shocked me. So I came here only to find out this has been going on for a few days.
This is sad news indeed. As some before me have mentioned, I figured that Mike would retire but the company would move on like many others do. I do hope that another corporation sees the value and buys it to continue. I don't have a preference between Lionel or MTH products, but I like market competition. It keeps all sides on their toes and forces them not to sit on their laurels. We already have enough issues with the current "O" manufacturers not making items that many model railroaders want, requiring them to kitbash, etc. As each company leaves the business (Weaver, etc.), that selection availability will only get worse, the prices will rise higher than the corresponding inflation rate, and we'll just have to take it and like it 
. A big thank you from Menards for entering this hobby recently and providing good product at an affordable price, especially more modern and current buildings. Maybe Menards can buy and take over the MTH product line. 
.
Thank you Mike Wolf for all that you've done for this industry the past few decades. 
And here I've been waiting for MTH to produce again, their European steam engines, well now it's, fuggedaboutit !
@Tinplate Art posted:SB1-48: Your take above is rather too generally simplistic and relies on assumptive cliches about both the economics and enthusiast preferences. Three rail trains are not being relegated to the dust bin of history anytime soon!
Yes indeed. Along with being incredibly negative. Thanks for being a voice of reason.
Pat
I don’t want to steer the thread in another direction, but I will ask this question.
Is it possible that production in China - and the fact that it may not be possible to extract the tooling from China or transfer its ownership to a prospective purchaser of MTH Trains – was responsible for the decision by MTH to close the company? If so, it is a lesson people need to remember.
I also wonder about the future of die-cast steam engines that are produced for MTH in South Korea. Who will own those assets and what will happen to them?
MELGAR
Does anyone have an idea as to what is Lionel's annual sales volume and what is that of MTH?
@Surefire posted:I hope this means companies like Atlas and 3rd Rail can integrate PS3 into their locomotives.
Great idea, but I think it's unlikely.
Pat
For the people wondering if BLI would be interested in MTH's HO and perhaps O tooling, one might consider that BLI is owned by Bob Grubba, who hasn't exactly been Mike Wolf's favorite colleague in the industry . Seems unlikely at best.
Just need to see how things play out. The sky isn't falling, at least not yet. OGR and CTT do not rely on MTH for significant revenue, for one thing, so I'm keeping my subscriptions active. I would advise everyone to do subscribe to both if you can afford it. Supports the industry and the hobby.
"Does anyone have an idea as to what is Lionel's annual sales volume and what is that of MTH?"
No, these are privately held companies. Fifteen years ago (forever in some ways), during the lawsuit era, the estimates were something like 70-100 million a year for Lionel and about half to two-thirds that for MTH. But that was another time and place and probably not totally reliable estimates. And that may be part of the problem. Companies are often priced at twice annual sales. May be that no one wanted to spend or borrow 50-100 million to buy MTH. Just wild speculation on my part, but it's free.
I have been absorbing all this for two days now, and not much is left to do but to see how this all plays out. A few observations:
1. Best of luck to Mr. Wolf for a long and healthy retirement; he has earned it.
2.Mr. Wolf ranks up there right behind Josh Cowen in impact on this hobby, along with a number of others, including Louis Marx, Maury Klein, Gebruder Bingen, Jerry Williams, a couple of the senior guys at Fundimensions / MPC , Dick Kughn, Neil Young, and a few others I can't remember right now.
3. All things must pass. Life is change. Nothing is static.
4. I don't expect a "White Knight" to buy MTH lock, stock and barrel. Surprise me.
5. Menards is an unlikely suitor; it has a business plan that works for it, and when John Menard (bless him) isn't as involved, its train stuff may be of less importance to its Board of Directors in any event. Surprise me.
6. I don't know " 'nuthin about 'nuthin", when you get right down to it. 
