More on the Domeless Lionel CZ

Carl, I don't think you will get an argument about this, a CZ set must have the domed Observation Car. One of my favorite Fogg pictures is the CZ Observation Car (with dome) going through the Rocky Mountains. It hangs in our train room as a constant reminder just how beautiful this train really is. Of course, our model with domed Observation Car never leaves a main line.

If Lionel chooses to produce the observation car sans-dome, they may as well not produce the set. I'm sending back the cars I have and canceling the balance. They are awful! What a blunder.

PTC, this is my favorite Howard Fogg paintings as well. I's not the CZ without the dome observation.

Even if it's a generic, postwar inspired car, if it carries the name, it's gotta have a dome:

MTH 70' aluminum cars, circa 1996.

Rusty

It really begs the question, what pictures was Lionel using when Drawing up their version of the CZ. 

I am stunned by their lack of getting it right. 

I feel for you guys that have been waiting for this set Only to be disappointed. I've got to admit, having the KCS cars and Pocahontas set on order, I'm a little nervous about what I'm going to get. 

I had to repeat the picture and agree with both of you. 

The question that I have is: How did this happen?  Does Lionel not know any better?  Do they not care?  Did the overseas manufacturer screw up and they decided to accept it?  While I don't like any of the possible answers, I would still like to know.

Art

My current project is to repaint/decal postwar Lionel F3 AA's and newer, smooth-sided 15" Lionel passenger cars in the Great Northern Empire Builder livery.  Having done similar projects in the past, it takes all of 10-15 minutes to google the pictures, car names and numbers of the prototype road.

Carl

PS:  Check my WTB listing for F3 AA shells.

Even without Google.  The CZ is one of the most documented trains... 

...In things called books.  Information abounds...

Kato got it right in N, Broadway Limited got it right in HO, even Nickle Plate Products in the "olden days" of the 1970's in brass.  Then there's also the much delayed Atlas O models.

Rusty

Jon, that's the picture. Chugman (Art) goes to the Dupage Show every month and this painting is a good reason why. I bought mine there as well as other fine pieces of railroad art.

Rusty, thanks for your photos. This is how I think the exterior of a CZ should look, like this, not some dull looking painted finish. But I am partial, I like shinny anyway.

Rusty, I had "Streamliners," and "Domeliners"before there was google.  For me, I prefer to look at a picture in a book and read words in a book rather than looking at a computer monitor or some handheld device.  I don't much like reading email on the smartphone for that matter.

Carl

Smart man. 

All this electronic wizardry is nice and makes access to some information handy, but it doesn't know everything...

Rusty

From what I understand, Lionel has isolated management teams which can tend to be more of a competitive effort than a team effort.  Right hand/left hand syndrum.

I guess with the major companies continued lack of prototype correctness,  why are we constantly surprised by this, myself included.  One of my favorite sayings "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."  Unless we seriously hold them accountable this will continue to be our plight.  On the other hand we could go the old route and kit-bash or build our own.   Just my 2 cents, off my soap box now.  Respectfully Jim 

The question is how do you hold them accountable?

If you stop buying, the hobby largely dries up. I think an open letter of concern with as many signatures as possible is one route.

Maybe a thread here unless OGR does not agree.

Delivery, representation, and quality seem to be the big issues on this.

While not in the market, Id sign it on behalf of my fellow O Gauge hobbyists.

Just a thought in reaction to this and the other threads.Too bad there is not some organisation not tied to Lionel to organized  this ...might get their attention or maybe not. Strength in numbers and all that might apply.

There is a dome observation on my Lionel CZ set, but then again it's not scale.

Guess many will join you. With domes and skirts it would have been a great train.

Have cancelled our passenger car order. Even if they change, no going back, money spent elsewhere.

quote:

If you stop buying, the hobby largely dries up.

So people should buy items they don't want or like to keep the manufacturers going?
Then there is no incentive for them to do things better / right.

Same goes for accepting defective goods.

What beautiful, mesmerizing painting.

Ralph 

If Lionel is properly sticking a dome/observation on the Wabash Blue Bird they are producing, I don't understand how they could miss it on the CZ.

You didnt address my point..which is to have them know exactly what their problem (s) are from a customers point of view. rather than accepting them. I wasnt advocating buying shoddy goods. Re-read what I wrote..do you see that sentence in there? If Lionel went bust..due to no one buying inferior goods..it would be something significant..do you think they would know why? 

I doubt it. They dont know now and if they do....they dont care. That much is obvious. As far as speaking out ...here I dont think it has the same impact as a more organised effort. 

quote:

Re-read what I wrote..do you see that sentence in there?

I did. Here is what you wrote:

quote:

If you stop buying, the hobby largely dries up. I think an open letter of concern with as many signatures as possible is one route.

I cannot be the only one who took that to mean the trains should be purchased anyway, along with sending a letter of concern.

If that is not what you meant, then I am sorry to have misinterpreted your post.

quote:

do you think they would know why?

Sure, letters are fine, but even without them, Lionel has representatives reading these boards, and likely get feedback from their dealers.

I feel for those who ordered these.  The cars pictured on the other thread look horrid with the flat silver (nearly grey to my eye) paint.

I'd suggest the hobby could actually use a bit of drying up. 

While the large catalogs are great for variety and options, when the result is things like this happening, obviously too many projects are going on at the same time, and not enough attention is being paid to get stuff done properly.

Smaller catalogs and more focus on proper manufacturing methods (and big details like whether a car has an obs dome or not) should take precedence for a while until things get better.

Of course, this will never happen as no manufacturer will admit this and risk lowering sales figures by documenting less product in the catalog wish books.

I'm sure the large number of orders for the Big Boy will more than cover any losses Lionel takes on these sets being returned/refused.

-Dave

Unless significant issues crop up with those...

Rusty

I've tried responding on the toy train industry subject, only to delete many times what had turned into a rant.  That is all!

Bruce

Doesn't sound like a rant to me.

On the other hand, Lionel has not been known as a scale model supplier.  Lionel has always made its money catering to a decidedly toy-like market.  I realize they have done some definitive scale work - like the 700-series, or that really nice scale FEF, but their business model has always been to cater to 3-railers, and most of them have always been able to tolerate significant departures from scale.

What puzzles me is - K-Line came out with some darn good streamliners.  I am not sure they did the requisite dome-obs, but I have one of their Zephyr coaches, and it is everything you seem to want, except it is probably too long, and has cutouts so the trucks can negotiate O-120 curves.  K-Line went out of business offering a quality product at decent prices, because of a lack of customers.  

Patronize folks who produce the models you want.  Allow toy suppliers to do what they want.  Opinion.

Just to back that opinion up a bit, I did a search.  One can definitely buy K-Line California Zephyr cars for cheap.  I found an 18" baggage that I could probably use.  There are lots of 21" dome-obs cars for sale, and I think at least one 15" set.  I was unable to spot an 18" dome-obs, but suspect they made them.

All have cutouts in the skirts for the trucks.  None have that non-prototypical waist-high letterboard Lionel is so fond of.

Probably a topic for an entirely different thread, but I think the doors eventually closed surrounding the bru-hah-hah of some K-Line personnel getting their hands caught in the cookie jar.

Had that not happened, one can only imagine the products we'd have on the market today at excellent price-points.  In addition to their great passenger cars, K-Line aluminum scale tankers were in a league of their own.  Nothing else came close back then, and those tankers still hold a candle to the scale stuff being produced today By other importers.

David

Interesting observation!!!  No pun intended.    I hadn't noticed that before.  

But like I said in another thread, Lionel's lack of official/authoritative commentary on their CZ observation car having or not having a dome could be all one big joke/surprise on all of us.  They told us last year at York that the CZ observation would be produced as catalog'd (i.e., without a dome).  Now we've seen some postings here that some folks inquired at a recent TrainFest and were told by Lionel they're "pretty sure" that the CZ observation will have a dome -- but not 100% certain.  

But wouldn't it be a hoot if -- after all this time and misinformation -- what they catalog'd for the Wabash observation car is identical/similar to what's been produced for the CZ in the 4-pack that's supposedly shipping to dealers next week????     Now the Wabash domed observation looks nothing like the CZ prototype (which is what Atlas-O went to great lengths to produced for their CZ), but it would at least save "some face" from Lionel's perspective that they didn't issue a CZ without a domed observation after all.  They just played coy about the whole deal.

Even if some type of domed observation appeared for the CZ, it doesn't change some of the other stuff that didn't turn out right.  But it'll appease some folks for sure.

I guess we'll know soon enough when those 4-packs hit dealer inventory in a week or so.  And perhaps Lionel will have the last laugh on this one.

David 

K-Line is sorely missed by yours truly. I have both their Rock Island passenger sets and it was responsible for me getting into O gauge. This current mess makes me feel fortunate to have been in the market back then when buying was not so convoluted. 

Man, you have to jump through ten hoops to get to square one. I would no more pre-order than set my hair on fire. Sad to say.

"One can definitely buy K-Line California Zephyr cars for cheap."

I am not sure about this. There is a4-car 21" set now on the big auction site, and when the bidding is done, I doubt that the word "cheap" will apply. They are wonderful cars however.

"I was unable to spot an 18" dome-obs, but suspect they made them."

I am not sure about their 18" version, but K-Line sure had a dome on their 21" Observation Car.

There may have been more to K-line's demise than you realize. As mentioned by David, probably a subject for another thread, but a thread that probably would not last long.

Here are three observation cars in Union Station.  The first on the left is a K-Line 21" California Zephyr, next a Lionel El Capitan 18", and then a Weaver 20" Milwaukee Road Hiawatha, and last Atlas 21" Amtrak Horizon cars.

Art

Good morning Art. Your photo reminds me of the TV contestant show about door # 1, #2, etc. In this case, door # 1 on the left (K-Line CZ) is a runaway winner.

Great pic, Art!  I agree with Brian, the K-line is the standout!

Most buyers of 3 rail passenger trains don't seem to care if the train is prototypical.  This is the reason that many train sets from Lionel, MTH, and others include dome cars for railroads that never operated a dome car.

For example, the SP never ran a dome on the Daylight.  The SP did have some homemade domes that they ran on other trains.  The New Haven  and PRR never ran a dome on any train.

Joe 

Joe, you make a good point.  The part that I have a very difficult time with though is that the dome observation was the signature car on this train.  If you want to make a train with lightweight stainless steel cars without a dome observation, call it something else.  Maybe Lionel Lines or something.

Art

It is a moot point even if it came with the Vista Dome Observation (Ran this past some business owners, no one thought you could run a company and not know what your vendors have produced) as the WP two pack is skirtless and painted silver...

I think that the only way the 3 rail community is going to get a reasonably affordable prototypical CZ train is for 3rd Rail to make it.

I thought that Atlas would do this but Atlas doesn't seem to be able to produce all the cars for whatever reason.  The cars that Atlas has released are excellent.    

3rd Rail is probably reluctant to start a CZ project because of the Atlas head start.  

Joe 

In 1968, I rode the CZ to Portola from Oakland. My recollection was every car had a dome. Sadly, there was no air conditioning. The cars were HOT. And empty. I now understand this was most likely intentional, to get rid of passenger service. However, my aunt and uncle, who took me, nonetheless believed in trains and we rode it.