More on the Domeless Lionel CZ

Carl, I don't think you will get an argument about this, a CZ set must have the domed Observation Car. One of my favorite Fogg pictures is the CZ Observation Car (with dome) going through the Rocky Mountains. It hangs in our train room as a constant reminder just how beautiful this train really is. Of course, our model with domed Observation Car never leaves a main line.

If Lionel chooses to produce the observation car sans-dome, they may as well not produce the set. I'm sending back the cars I have and canceling the balance. They are awful! What a blunder.

PTC, this is my favorite Howard Fogg paintings as well. I's not the CZ without the dome observation.

Even if it's a generic, postwar inspired car, if it carries the name, it's gotta have a dome:

MTH 70' aluminum cars, circa 1996.

Rusty

It really begs the question, what pictures was Lionel using when Drawing up their version of the CZ. 

I am stunned by their lack of getting it right. 

I feel for you guys that have been waiting for this set Only to be disappointed. I've got to admit, having the KCS cars and Pocahontas set on order, I'm a little nervous about what I'm going to get. 

I had to repeat the picture and agree with both of you. 

The question that I have is: How did this happen?  Does Lionel not know any better?  Do they not care?  Did the overseas manufacturer screw up and they decided to accept it?  While I don't like any of the possible answers, I would still like to know.

Art

My current project is to repaint/decal postwar Lionel F3 AA's and newer, smooth-sided 15" Lionel passenger cars in the Great Northern Empire Builder livery.  Having done similar projects in the past, it takes all of 10-15 minutes to google the pictures, car names and numbers of the prototype road.

Carl

PS:  Check my WTB listing for F3 AA shells.

Even without Google.  The CZ is one of the most documented trains... 

...In things called books.  Information abounds...

Kato got it right in N, Broadway Limited got it right in HO, even Nickle Plate Products in the "olden days" of the 1970's in brass.  Then there's also the much delayed Atlas O models.

Rusty

Jon, that's the picture. Chugman (Art) goes to the Dupage Show every month and this painting is a good reason why. I bought mine there as well as other fine pieces of railroad art.

Rusty, thanks for your photos. This is how I think the exterior of a CZ should look, like this, not some dull looking painted finish. But I am partial, I like shinny anyway.

Rusty, I had "Streamliners," and "Domeliners"before there was google.  For me, I prefer to look at a picture in a book and read words in a book rather than looking at a computer monitor or some handheld device.  I don't much like reading email on the smartphone for that matter.

Carl

Smart man. 

All this electronic wizardry is nice and makes access to some information handy, but it doesn't know everything...

Rusty

From what I understand, Lionel has isolated management teams which can tend to be more of a competitive effort than a team effort.  Right hand/left hand syndrum.

I guess with the major companies continued lack of prototype correctness,  why are we constantly surprised by this, myself included.  One of my favorite sayings "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."  Unless we seriously hold them accountable this will continue to be our plight.  On the other hand we could go the old route and kit-bash or build our own.   Just my 2 cents, off my soap box now.  Respectfully Jim 

The question is how do you hold them accountable?

If you stop buying, the hobby largely dries up. I think an open letter of concern with as many signatures as possible is one route.

Maybe a thread here unless OGR does not agree.

Delivery, representation, and quality seem to be the big issues on this.

While not in the market, Id sign it on behalf of my fellow O Gauge hobbyists.

Just a thought in reaction to this and the other threads.Too bad there is not some organisation not tied to Lionel to organized  this ...might get their attention or maybe not. Strength in numbers and all that might apply.

There is a dome observation on my Lionel CZ set, but then again it's not scale.

Guess many will join you. With domes and skirts it would have been a great train.

Have cancelled our passenger car order. Even if they change, no going back, money spent elsewhere.

quote:

If you stop buying, the hobby largely dries up.

So people should buy items they don't want or like to keep the manufacturers going?
Then there is no incentive for them to do things better / right.

Same goes for accepting defective goods.

What beautiful, mesmerizing painting.

Ralph 

If Lionel is properly sticking a dome/observation on the Wabash Blue Bird they are producing, I don't understand how they could miss it on the CZ.

You didnt address my point..which is to have them know exactly what their problem (s) are from a customers point of view. rather than accepting them. I wasnt advocating buying shoddy goods. Re-read what I wrote..do you see that sentence in there? If Lionel went bust..due to no one buying inferior goods..it would be something significant..do you think they would know why? 

I doubt it. They dont know now and if they do....they dont care. That much is obvious. As far as speaking out ...here I dont think it has the same impact as a more organised effort. 

quote:

Re-read what I wrote..do you see that sentence in there?

I did. Here is what you wrote:

quote:

If you stop buying, the hobby largely dries up. I think an open letter of concern with as many signatures as possible is one route.

I cannot be the only one who took that to mean the trains should be purchased anyway, along with sending a letter of concern.

If that is not what you meant, then I am sorry to have misinterpreted your post.

quote:

do you think they would know why?

Sure, letters are fine, but even without them, Lionel has representatives reading these boards, and likely get feedback from their dealers.

I feel for those who ordered these.  The cars pictured on the other thread look horrid with the flat silver (nearly grey to my eye) paint.

I'd suggest the hobby could actually use a bit of drying up. 

While the large catalogs are great for variety and options, when the result is things like this happening, obviously too many projects are going on at the same time, and not enough attention is being paid to get stuff done properly.

Smaller catalogs and more focus on proper manufacturing methods (and big details like whether a car has an obs dome or not) should take precedence for a while until things get better.

Of course, this will never happen as no manufacturer will admit this and risk lowering sales figures by documenting less product in the catalog wish books.

I'm sure the large number of orders for the Big Boy will more than cover any losses Lionel takes on these sets being returned/refused.

-Dave

Unless significant issues crop up with those...

Rusty

I've tried responding on the toy train industry subject, only to delete many times what had turned into a rant.  That is all!

Bruce

Doesn't sound like a rant to me.

On the other hand, Lionel has not been known as a scale model supplier.  Lionel has always made its money catering to a decidedly toy-like market.  I realize they have done some definitive scale work - like the 700-series, or that really nice scale FEF, but their business model has always been to cater to 3-railers, and most of them have always been able to tolerate significant departures from scale.

What puzzles me is - K-Line came out with some darn good streamliners.  I am not sure they did the requisite dome-obs, but I have one of their Zephyr coaches, and it is everything you seem to want, except it is probably too long, and has cutouts so the trucks can negotiate O-120 curves.  K-Line went out of business offering a quality product at decent prices, because of a lack of customers.  

Patronize folks who produce the models you want.  Allow toy suppliers to do what they want.  Opinion.

Just to back that opinion up a bit, I did a search.  One can definitely buy K-Line California Zephyr cars for cheap.  I found an 18" baggage that I could probably use.  There are lots of 21" dome-obs cars for sale, and I think at least one 15" set.  I was unable to spot an 18" dome-obs, but suspect they made them.

All have cutouts in the skirts for the trucks.  None have that non-prototypical waist-high letterboard Lionel is so fond of.

Probably a topic for an entirely different thread, but I think the doors eventually closed surrounding the bru-hah-hah of some K-Line personnel getting their hands caught in the cookie jar.

Had that not happened, one can only imagine the products we'd have on the market today at excellent price-points.  In addition to their great passenger cars, K-Line aluminum scale tankers were in a league of their own.  Nothing else came close back then, and those tankers still hold a candle to the scale stuff being produced today By other importers.

David

Interesting observation!!!  No pun intended.    I hadn't noticed that before.  

But like I said in another thread, Lionel's lack of official/authoritative commentary on their CZ observation car having or not having a dome could be all one big joke/surprise on all of us.  They told us last year at York that the CZ observation would be produced as catalog'd (i.e., without a dome).  Now we've seen some postings here that some folks inquired at a recent TrainFest and were told by Lionel they're "pretty sure" that the CZ observation will have a dome -- but not 100% certain.  

But wouldn't it be a hoot if -- after all this time and misinformation -- what they catalog'd for the Wabash observation car is identical/similar to what's been produced for the CZ in the 4-pack that's supposedly shipping to dealers next week????     Now the Wabash domed observation looks nothing like the CZ prototype (which is what Atlas-O went to great lengths to produced for their CZ), but it would at least save "some face" from Lionel's perspective that they didn't issue a CZ without a domed observation after all.  They just played coy about the whole deal.

Even if some type of domed observation appeared for the CZ, it doesn't change some of the other stuff that didn't turn out right.  But it'll appease some folks for sure.

I guess we'll know soon enough when those 4-packs hit dealer inventory in a week or so.  And perhaps Lionel will have the last laugh on this one.

David 

K-Line is sorely missed by yours truly. I have both their Rock Island passenger sets and it was responsible for me getting into O gauge. This current mess makes me feel fortunate to have been in the market back then when buying was not so convoluted. 

Man, you have to jump through ten hoops to get to square one. I would no more pre-order than set my hair on fire. Sad to say.

"One can definitely buy K-Line California Zephyr cars for cheap."

I am not sure about this. There is a4-car 21" set now on the big auction site, and when the bidding is done, I doubt that the word "cheap" will apply. They are wonderful cars however.

"I was unable to spot an 18" dome-obs, but suspect they made them."

I am not sure about their 18" version, but K-Line sure had a dome on their 21" Observation Car.

There may have been more to K-line's demise than you realize. As mentioned by David, probably a subject for another thread, but a thread that probably would not last long.

Here are three observation cars in Union Station.  The first on the left is a K-Line 21" California Zephyr, next a Lionel El Capitan 18", and then a Weaver 20" Milwaukee Road Hiawatha, and last Atlas 21" Amtrak Horizon cars.

Art

Good morning Art. Your photo reminds me of the TV contestant show about door # 1, #2, etc. In this case, door # 1 on the left (K-Line CZ) is a runaway winner.

Great pic, Art!  I agree with Brian, the K-line is the standout!

Most buyers of 3 rail passenger trains don't seem to care if the train is prototypical.  This is the reason that many train sets from Lionel, MTH, and others include dome cars for railroads that never operated a dome car.

For example, the SP never ran a dome on the Daylight.  The SP did have some homemade domes that they ran on other trains.  The New Haven  and PRR never ran a dome on any train.

Joe 

Joe, you make a good point.  The part that I have a very difficult time with though is that the dome observation was the signature car on this train.  If you want to make a train with lightweight stainless steel cars without a dome observation, call it something else.  Maybe Lionel Lines or something.

Art

It is a moot point even if it came with the Vista Dome Observation (Ran this past some business owners, no one thought you could run a company and not know what your vendors have produced) as the WP two pack is skirtless and painted silver...

I think that the only way the 3 rail community is going to get a reasonably affordable prototypical CZ train is for 3rd Rail to make it.

I thought that Atlas would do this but Atlas doesn't seem to be able to produce all the cars for whatever reason.  The cars that Atlas has released are excellent.    

3rd Rail is probably reluctant to start a CZ project because of the Atlas head start.  

Joe 

In 1968, I rode the CZ to Portola from Oakland. My recollection was every car had a dome. Sadly, there was no air conditioning. The cars were HOT. And empty. I now understand this was most likely intentional, to get rid of passenger service. However, my aunt and uncle, who took me, nonetheless believed in trains and we rode it.

If Scott announced a CZ project in the next few months, there's no doubt it would beat Atlas to the finish line.

K-Line hands down winner.

What ever happened to the company by the name of Pheonnix that made some passenger sets years ago?

These are photos taken of a K-Line 21 inch CZ train operating on the G&O garden railroad in June 2011.  I believe that the engines were Williams.  This scene is totally different today.  K-Line made some of the best 3 rail passenger trains ever. 

Quite likely very true!  Atlas-O's concept of "coming soon" is an exaggeration on a good day.

They previewed the domed observation at York in October 2013 with a brochure saying, "Coming Soon!!!".  Word at York was March/April 2014 delivery.  The actual website announcement didn't happen until January 2014, and the delivery was pushed to 4Q2014 later in the year.  This past York, Atlas-O reps chose their words very carefully about delivery of the domed observation -- giving the impression that LOTS of stuff had to work out exactly right to a "T" in order for any chance of a 2014 delivery.  And based on a post here today noting their latest shipment container update didn't include the CZ observation car, we're probably now looking at a 1Q2015 delivery.  

So this past York, Atlas-O previewed the CZ baggage car with a brochure that said, "Coming Soon!!!".  Anyone detect a pattern here???   

All things being equal, I'm betting we'll see the baggage car at some point in 2016, which would put us well into 7-8 years since the project was originally announced.    So yeah, I'd put good money on a bet that 3rd Rail will deliver their complete El Capitan Hi-Level passenger set before Atlas-O finishes their CZ.  And Scott just announced the El Capitan set earlier this year.  Heck, he might even deliver the El Capitan before Atlas-O gives us the CZ domed observation!!! 

David

Wow!

That's a beauty!

"I am not sure about their 18" version, but K-Line sure had a dome on their 21" Observation Car."

and on the 15"

Is this what you have in mind for realistic Zephyr cars?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v4FjbF20SQI

Note that the baggage car is shorter than the rest, unlike the k-Line sets.

"Note that the baggage car is shorter than the rest, unlike the k-Line sets."

On our Sante Fe El Capitan and Super Chief K-Line sets, we use the 18" Baggage cars for this very reason.

The Silver Bear on the K-Line 21" car sets is an 18" car, just as Brain notes is the case with Santa Fe Super Chief sets as well.

The grand flaw, easily fixed, in the K-Line sets was the lack of a fifth dome car -- for a train which marketed itself as having five domes, at least in the golden years of passenger service. Easily fixed however, with the purchase on one additional dome-chair car and quick name plate change.

Thanks to Brian last year I gave up on the Atlas CZ, and began tracking down the 21" K-Line cars, best advise I'd gotten in a long time.

Given that these were offered in all three sizes by K-line, are seen on the secondary market fairly often, and based upon prices sited here are in line with this Frankintrain Lionel is calling the CZ, send them back, cancel future orders and come to the dark side.... you'll be glad you did.

Here's a clipping from a March-16-1969 Chicago Sun-Times back in the want ad section

Note that on the CZ dome-observation car the car roof behind the dome (obs end) is higher than the roof on the other end of the car (and all the other car roofs in the train).  This may have influenced Atlas to mold the car body in plastic vs a one piece extrusion like K-Line's.

I'm glad CRH posted that old newspaper ad. I need to brush up on my interview and test skills/ That book looks like a wiener!

Ed - by golly, you are correct! Or at least it appears so from my U Tube reference above.  The solution, of course, is to simply make the end casting mate with the dome casting, and anchor e aluminum sides to the castings in some fashion.  No need to go all plastic.  

I never noticed that roof change, but perhaps that is because I am only passingly interested in the CZ.  I like the Sunset version of Budd cars - no issues with skirts at all.  And alas - no domes, although that did not stop me!

Here is the deal on the full skirts:  my narrowest set of scale trucks is 2 1/16" across the journal box lids.  I took a 21" car, re- mounted this very narrow truck 3" inside where it normally goes, and tried it on 70", 64", and 60" radii.  It did ok on the 64" curve, but on the 60" curve the contact between skirt and journal lid was enough to derail it.

Granted, a scale truck is 2" long (8 feet), and a Lionel truck is considerably shorter, but most 3-rail trucks are a whole lot wider than 2 1/16".  My somewhat wider truck on the cutout end was outside the vertical part of the carbody on the 60" curve.  Most 3-rail trucks start out almost as wide as the carbody.

Without belaboring the technical aspects, my curve where the test failed is equivalent to O-120 in 3-rail parlance.  I submit that a proper skirted Zephyr, with 18" carbodies and shorter trucks, would be limited to no sharper than O-100, and even then the skirt would have to be vertical, unlike the prototype.  K-Line solved this by using truck cutouts, which are unprototypical for the Zephyr.  One correspondent suggested that the 3-railers would solve the problem by elevating the car above the trucks.  Yow!

Did anyone recieve the 4 pack yet? At Nicholas Smith today Joe had told me they came in. None were on display but he thought that they did not have a dome.

Bill

I was told by Lionel folks today that the dome is not going to happen. The individual stated that the observation car was shown in the catalog without a dome. From that statement, I would say it was never planned from the get go.

Good evening

The only way to fly. Wonderful pics, Clem, thanks for posting.

"You should have told him that the catalog also shows polished aluminum cars, not gray painted ones. What did Lionel have to say on the screw up?"

Short answer, I did ask and it was my first question. They gave me an explanation that I would prefer they answer, but there was a logical reason given the circumstances why paint was used. They did say they are re-examining how production will be handled on future 18" passenger cars.

Thanks Clem for those wonderful photos. The Observation Car is by far me favorite of all passenger cars, and to also have a dome, makes it more special to me.

The bankruptcy paperwork is public record. There is not much more than the fact they were having expensive tooling built faster than they could pay for it in an attempt to build market share. The problems with Lionel was the tipping point but the house of cards was going to collapse one way or the other.

Brian,

I understand their loss leader approach was flawed. Your last sentence is speculation, though. This just probably isn't the place to discuss it.

Clem, thanks for the great pictures.

Lionel will sell the dome used on the 18" unpainted aluminum cars; they'll even sell the interior used under the dome.  A competent machinist could easily cut the roof of the domeless CZ observation car to receive the dome; voila, a now domed observation CZ.  The parts are shown in this link:

http://www.lionel.com/Customer...a5-8185-3a4ff1dac98b

Of course, Lionel should have built the car "right" to begin with; but, those who bought and are keeping the set have an alternative.

FWIW, 20+ years ago a machinist buddy cut a 2531 observation car using a stock vista dome I gave him.  It turned out perfectly; even had the offset right, though the window arrangement was not close to prototype.

Lima, in the reply below, is correct that Lionel won't sell the dome interior for the 18" car; my mistake to say otherwise.  Lionel does sell the dome interior for the 15" cars; perhaps that could be adapted for an 18" car.

A skilled machinist could install the dome.

Mill City, big THANK YOU for the advertising art, drawing, and photos!

Bet you a dollar they could get an accurate diecast model of Nascar number 8 Dale Earnhardt 's car prototypically correct all the way down to the forced air vents and the duct tape over specific vents for different race tracks. Lionel has always  been a toy and the folks producing them are unequivocally not prototype train guy!!!! Betcha

I must say that this surprises me a whole bunch. Such a huge miss. 

I agree.  The California Zephyr was such an iconic American passenger train that to miss it so far and in so many ways is just hard to understand.  I am and have been a big Lionel fan, but this really shakes my confidence in the direction they are going as it pertains to passenger cars. 

Art

I run almost all Lionel but the CZ was a huge miss and like Chugman it really gives me pause on ordering any new aluminum passenger cars. 

Lionel's major market is not scale - almost everything they have produced from day one is a huge miss from a scale model standpoint.  There are exceptions, but apparently they do not sell well enough to cause Lionel to stop what they are doing and start catering to scale modelers.

If you want truly accurate O Scale models, they are in fact available.  And expensive, because the market is incredibly thin.

Opinion, but I bet it is not far from fact.

Yes, but why bother?  Just to say you have a customized Lionel set?  And the person who has the skills to retrofit a dome isn't the typical Lionel buyer.  It's still such a huge miss in many ways... observation car styling without the aerodynamic lines and tail-light, no skirts on the cars, paint vs. polished aluminum, etc...

The set is as close to DOA as you can get.  Who's gonna buy it? 

David

I'm winding down my acquisition of O-Gauge products to all but very select items.  The last passenger set I've pre-ordered is composed of the three 18" MKT Texas Special 2-packs.  Would like to see a StationSounds car in that offering eventually as well, but I'm not holding my breath given the current state of Lionel 18" passenger car production.

I already own two powered SD70ACE Texas Special locomotives, so I may cancel my pre-order for the MKT AA set (BTO) due February 2015, 'cause I don't want to risk holding those AA units if the passenger cars aren't up to earlier standards.  So Lionel management needs to realize there are tremendous sales repercussions to screwing up their passenger car production.  It's really very simple.  Most of us have more trains than we can run and/or display.  So it's not that difficult to pass up on items that aren't made properly... or made with blatant use of production shortcuts.

David

I wouldn't do it, it was an idea from another forum member, I was just confirming an adept machinist could cut it in as I have seen it done. It seems to be the only way to get a Lionel one and you can get enough parts to fudge one.

On our end, painted "Stainless" ended any chance of purchasing these. The MKT and Wabash sets would have looked splendid, not with silver paint though. It is also why the boss has said no to any pre-order items any more, the delivered product does not meet the catalog given expectations.

I saw an occasional train friend last Saturday evening at a friend's run session.  He is 100% Lionel and owns nothing else.  He said he had just gotten his 4 car set of the new Lionel CAZ cars.  I asked if they had domes?  He said no, why?  We got into the discussion that has been going on this forum.  After we were done hashing it out, his response was "I love Lionel and really don't care if they have domes or not."  He went on to say that he loves the new diaphragms, people, under car details, and the only thing he wasn't so sure about was the painted finish. 

I believe that these are the people that Lionel is making passenger cars for and most likely will continue as long as they will buy them.

Art 

Other than Lionel Fanboys, how can anyone call this the California Zephyr with a straight face?

I don't doubt for a second that for everyone here who dislikes the new CZ cars for one reason or another, Lionel management will ramble off a list of satisfied customers who LOVE them.  They may tell us they'll look into future production, but what that means is anyone's guess until we see cars showing up that meet the level of quality they produced 10 years ago.  That may all be a thing of the past.  So we'll have to wait and see... then purchase accordingly.  Thankfully, nobody I pre-order from requires a deposit, 'cause the CZ debacle has set a very poor precedent.

David

Exactly right Art!  For those "modelers" that know better, there is always Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot, who provide pretty much CORRECT scale products.

Bottom line. I waited 2 years for nothing!

Sunset/GGD make some great cars but not everybody has the room or money to run true scale cars. I like to run 15"and 18" cars so as you see I'm not in that market for Sunset/GGD passenger cars. 

But I do expect Lionel who does market the 15"/18" cars to at least get them close to be being right. Lionel made a great set of CZ cars with a dome OBS. in the 15" size Some years ago, also a super chief set that looks just as nice. 

Well then, it looks like you, and lots of others, are "stuck" with those CZ cars from Lionel.

Speculation in that their lenders and vendors were about to pull the rug out from under them. It was all in the bankruptcy paperwork.

Did the bankruptcy paperwork happen to i.d. K-Line's vendor for their 15" and 21" CZ passenger cars?