More on the Domeless Lionel CZ

If Scott announced a CZ project in the next few months, there's no doubt it would beat Atlas to the finish line.

K-Line hands down winner.

What ever happened to the company by the name of Pheonnix that made some passenger sets years ago?

These are photos taken of a K-Line 21 inch CZ train operating on the G&O garden railroad in June 2011.  I believe that the engines were Williams.  This scene is totally different today.  K-Line made some of the best 3 rail passenger trains ever. 

Quite likely very true!  Atlas-O's concept of "coming soon" is an exaggeration on a good day.

They previewed the domed observation at York in October 2013 with a brochure saying, "Coming Soon!!!".  Word at York was March/April 2014 delivery.  The actual website announcement didn't happen until January 2014, and the delivery was pushed to 4Q2014 later in the year.  This past York, Atlas-O reps chose their words very carefully about delivery of the domed observation -- giving the impression that LOTS of stuff had to work out exactly right to a "T" in order for any chance of a 2014 delivery.  And based on a post here today noting their latest shipment container update didn't include the CZ observation car, we're probably now looking at a 1Q2015 delivery.  

So this past York, Atlas-O previewed the CZ baggage car with a brochure that said, "Coming Soon!!!".  Anyone detect a pattern here???   

All things being equal, I'm betting we'll see the baggage car at some point in 2016, which would put us well into 7-8 years since the project was originally announced.    So yeah, I'd put good money on a bet that 3rd Rail will deliver their complete El Capitan Hi-Level passenger set before Atlas-O finishes their CZ.  And Scott just announced the El Capitan set earlier this year.  Heck, he might even deliver the El Capitan before Atlas-O gives us the CZ domed observation!!! 

David

Wow!

That's a beauty!

"I am not sure about their 18" version, but K-Line sure had a dome on their 21" Observation Car."

and on the 15"

Is this what you have in mind for realistic Zephyr cars?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v4FjbF20SQI

Note that the baggage car is shorter than the rest, unlike the k-Line sets.

"Note that the baggage car is shorter than the rest, unlike the k-Line sets."

On our Sante Fe El Capitan and Super Chief K-Line sets, we use the 18" Baggage cars for this very reason.

The Silver Bear on the K-Line 21" car sets is an 18" car, just as Brain notes is the case with Santa Fe Super Chief sets as well.

The grand flaw, easily fixed, in the K-Line sets was the lack of a fifth dome car -- for a train which marketed itself as having five domes, at least in the golden years of passenger service. Easily fixed however, with the purchase on one additional dome-chair car and quick name plate change.

Thanks to Brian last year I gave up on the Atlas CZ, and began tracking down the 21" K-Line cars, best advise I'd gotten in a long time.

Given that these were offered in all three sizes by K-line, are seen on the secondary market fairly often, and based upon prices sited here are in line with this Frankintrain Lionel is calling the CZ, send them back, cancel future orders and come to the dark side.... you'll be glad you did.

Here's a clipping from a March-16-1969 Chicago Sun-Times back in the want ad section

Note that on the CZ dome-observation car the car roof behind the dome (obs end) is higher than the roof on the other end of the car (and all the other car roofs in the train).  This may have influenced Atlas to mold the car body in plastic vs a one piece extrusion like K-Line's.

I'm glad CRH posted that old newspaper ad. I need to brush up on my interview and test skills/ That book looks like a wiener!

Ed - by golly, you are correct! Or at least it appears so from my U Tube reference above.  The solution, of course, is to simply make the end casting mate with the dome casting, and anchor e aluminum sides to the castings in some fashion.  No need to go all plastic.  

I never noticed that roof change, but perhaps that is because I am only passingly interested in the CZ.  I like the Sunset version of Budd cars - no issues with skirts at all.  And alas - no domes, although that did not stop me!

Here is the deal on the full skirts:  my narrowest set of scale trucks is 2 1/16" across the journal box lids.  I took a 21" car, re- mounted this very narrow truck 3" inside where it normally goes, and tried it on 70", 64", and 60" radii.  It did ok on the 64" curve, but on the 60" curve the contact between skirt and journal lid was enough to derail it.

Granted, a scale truck is 2" long (8 feet), and a Lionel truck is considerably shorter, but most 3-rail trucks are a whole lot wider than 2 1/16".  My somewhat wider truck on the cutout end was outside the vertical part of the carbody on the 60" curve.  Most 3-rail trucks start out almost as wide as the carbody.

Without belaboring the technical aspects, my curve where the test failed is equivalent to O-120 in 3-rail parlance.  I submit that a proper skirted Zephyr, with 18" carbodies and shorter trucks, would be limited to no sharper than O-100, and even then the skirt would have to be vertical, unlike the prototype.  K-Line solved this by using truck cutouts, which are unprototypical for the Zephyr.  One correspondent suggested that the 3-railers would solve the problem by elevating the car above the trucks.  Yow!

Did anyone recieve the 4 pack yet? At Nicholas Smith today Joe had told me they came in. None were on display but he thought that they did not have a dome.

Bill

I was told by Lionel folks today that the dome is not going to happen. The individual stated that the observation car was shown in the catalog without a dome. From that statement, I would say it was never planned from the get go.

Good evening

The only way to fly. Wonderful pics, Clem, thanks for posting.

"You should have told him that the catalog also shows polished aluminum cars, not gray painted ones. What did Lionel have to say on the screw up?"

Short answer, I did ask and it was my first question. They gave me an explanation that I would prefer they answer, but there was a logical reason given the circumstances why paint was used. They did say they are re-examining how production will be handled on future 18" passenger cars.

Thanks Clem for those wonderful photos. The Observation Car is by far me favorite of all passenger cars, and to also have a dome, makes it more special to me.

The bankruptcy paperwork is public record. There is not much more than the fact they were having expensive tooling built faster than they could pay for it in an attempt to build market share. The problems with Lionel was the tipping point but the house of cards was going to collapse one way or the other.

Brian,

I understand their loss leader approach was flawed. Your last sentence is speculation, though. This just probably isn't the place to discuss it.

Clem, thanks for the great pictures.

Lionel will sell the dome used on the 18" unpainted aluminum cars; they'll even sell the interior used under the dome.  A competent machinist could easily cut the roof of the domeless CZ observation car to receive the dome; voila, a now domed observation CZ.  The parts are shown in this link:

http://www.lionel.com/Customer...a5-8185-3a4ff1dac98b

Of course, Lionel should have built the car "right" to begin with; but, those who bought and are keeping the set have an alternative.

FWIW, 20+ years ago a machinist buddy cut a 2531 observation car using a stock vista dome I gave him.  It turned out perfectly; even had the offset right, though the window arrangement was not close to prototype.

Lima, in the reply below, is correct that Lionel won't sell the dome interior for the 18" car; my mistake to say otherwise.  Lionel does sell the dome interior for the 15" cars; perhaps that could be adapted for an 18" car.

A skilled machinist could install the dome.

Mill City, big THANK YOU for the advertising art, drawing, and photos!

Bet you a dollar they could get an accurate diecast model of Nascar number 8 Dale Earnhardt 's car prototypically correct all the way down to the forced air vents and the duct tape over specific vents for different race tracks. Lionel has always  been a toy and the folks producing them are unequivocally not prototype train guy!!!! Betcha

I must say that this surprises me a whole bunch. Such a huge miss. 

I agree.  The California Zephyr was such an iconic American passenger train that to miss it so far and in so many ways is just hard to understand.  I am and have been a big Lionel fan, but this really shakes my confidence in the direction they are going as it pertains to passenger cars. 

Art

I run almost all Lionel but the CZ was a huge miss and like Chugman it really gives me pause on ordering any new aluminum passenger cars. 

Lionel's major market is not scale - almost everything they have produced from day one is a huge miss from a scale model standpoint.  There are exceptions, but apparently they do not sell well enough to cause Lionel to stop what they are doing and start catering to scale modelers.

If you want truly accurate O Scale models, they are in fact available.  And expensive, because the market is incredibly thin.

Opinion, but I bet it is not far from fact.

Yes, but why bother?  Just to say you have a customized Lionel set?  And the person who has the skills to retrofit a dome isn't the typical Lionel buyer.  It's still such a huge miss in many ways... observation car styling without the aerodynamic lines and tail-light, no skirts on the cars, paint vs. polished aluminum, etc...

The set is as close to DOA as you can get.  Who's gonna buy it? 

David

I'm winding down my acquisition of O-Gauge products to all but very select items.  The last passenger set I've pre-ordered is composed of the three 18" MKT Texas Special 2-packs.  Would like to see a StationSounds car in that offering eventually as well, but I'm not holding my breath given the current state of Lionel 18" passenger car production.

I already own two powered SD70ACE Texas Special locomotives, so I may cancel my pre-order for the MKT AA set (BTO) due February 2015, 'cause I don't want to risk holding those AA units if the passenger cars aren't up to earlier standards.  So Lionel management needs to realize there are tremendous sales repercussions to screwing up their passenger car production.  It's really very simple.  Most of us have more trains than we can run and/or display.  So it's not that difficult to pass up on items that aren't made properly... or made with blatant use of production shortcuts.

David

I wouldn't do it, it was an idea from another forum member, I was just confirming an adept machinist could cut it in as I have seen it done. It seems to be the only way to get a Lionel one and you can get enough parts to fudge one.

On our end, painted "Stainless" ended any chance of purchasing these. The MKT and Wabash sets would have looked splendid, not with silver paint though. It is also why the boss has said no to any pre-order items any more, the delivered product does not meet the catalog given expectations.

I saw an occasional train friend last Saturday evening at a friend's run session.  He is 100% Lionel and owns nothing else.  He said he had just gotten his 4 car set of the new Lionel CAZ cars.  I asked if they had domes?  He said no, why?  We got into the discussion that has been going on this forum.  After we were done hashing it out, his response was "I love Lionel and really don't care if they have domes or not."  He went on to say that he loves the new diaphragms, people, under car details, and the only thing he wasn't so sure about was the painted finish. 

I believe that these are the people that Lionel is making passenger cars for and most likely will continue as long as they will buy them.

Art