I agree with John; why bother. But if you want a transformer, I would suggest Hammond. More than likely, it would have better load regulation than a landscape transformer.
I don't see the spin-off company that is going to handle the DCS and electronics lasting very long, if it happens at all. You can't get current circuit boards to repair engines now, don't think it's going to get any better.
@PRRronbh posted:Then why not go UL!!???? UL is most recognized. Or maybe the unit could not pass the UL testing?
Like to hear an explanation.
Ron
As with any business UL has had its share of issues.
It is going to be a very sad day for the hobby if MTH closes.
@Chuck Sartor posted:I don't see the spin-off company that is going to handle the DCS and electronics lasting very long, if it happens at all. You can't get current circuit boards to repair engines now, don't think it's going to get any better.
I'm with you Chuck, unless they have an OEM deal with a locomotive builder, I can't imagine it living very long. I suspect we'll see an upward spiral in prices for the boards if they ever do get started and then will come the crash.
@BobbyD posted:As with any business UL has had its share of issues.
It is going to be a very sad day for the hobby if MTH closes.
If MTH closes? Mike has sold the building and publicly announced his intention to retire. I think that's as closed as it gets!
@Oman posted:I agree with John; why bother. But if you want a transformer, I would suggest Hammond. More than likely, it would have better load regulation than a landscape transformer.
There is no “load regulation” in those transformers. It’s just a pile of iron, copper, and varnish like any old transformer.
@Oman posted:I agree with John; why bother. But if you want a transformer, I would suggest Hammond. More than likely, it would have better load regulation than a landscape transformer.
Thanks for the input. You and John are way more tech knowledgeable than I. The Hammond isn't a finished product. I look for a plug and play. The magazines have mentioned landscape transformers over the years and they have served me well for lights and accessories. I'll stay away from using them for engines based on what you are saying, but I hope they aren't a risk with lights and accessories or switches.
The MTH electronic parts issue is a serious one. I'll keep reading these posts to stay informed. Thanks for that, too.
The optimist in me is hoping that MTH's announcement that DCS lives on may mean there might be a future with the engines and such. Maybe the stock of everything is depleted so Mike Wolf can cash out before new ownership starts anew. Why would he replenish inventory before closing or selling? And the asking price is higher if the cost of carrying inventory must be included. Once (or if) you start up again, your main parts inventory is to cover the new stuff -- not to worry about servicing stuff you didn't make. You also have no obligation toward to old stuff unless those parts make money.
I do not know if this can be done but how about phasing Lionel 180 watt bricks to get the power you need ? Maybe 4 bricks if possible.
@rplst8 posted:There is no “load regulation” in those transformers. It’s just a pile of iron, copper, and varnish like any old transformer.
Oh, yes there is. Every transformer has an internal impedance. Higher impedance produces worse load regulation. Load regulation is based on a constant input voltage.
If the output voltage at no load is the same as at full load then you would be right. I guarantee you will not find that to be the case unless it's a ferroresonant transformer.
@feet posted:I do not know if this can be done but how about phasing Lionel 180 watt bricks to get the power you need ? Maybe 4 bricks if possible.
The question of the hour is, why in the world would you need or want 40 amps of power on the track???
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The question of the hour is, why in the world would you need or want 40 amps of power on the track???
Using all 4 channels on a TIU, but otherwise yeah, Why?
You can't parallel TIU outputs, so that 40 amps would be used by one TIU channel. Each channel handles a maximum of 10 amps input, so even if you connected all the inputs in common to that 40 amp transformer, each output MUST feed a separate track segment and can have no more than 10 amps coming through. Then you'd have to have separate circuit protection for each input or a short on the output could shoot all 40 amps through the one channel, in the best case it takes out the fuse, but with the variable channels, it's likely you'd be replacing a fist full of FET's or more.
Sorry, but I see no good thing that can come with 40 amps on the track, but you can weld your wheels firmly to the rails with a derailment. If that's considered good, count me out.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The question of the hour is, why in the world would you need or want 40 amps of power on the track???
I wouldn't but Tommy Z has 30 amps on his layout. I just wondered if it could be done.
@Oman posted:Using all 4 channels on a TIU, but otherwise yeah, Why?
I don't recommend trying it. Tommy Z Has 30 amps going to the tracks on his layout. I don't see how he gets away it.
@feet posted:I don't recommend trying it. Tommy Z Has 30 amps going to the tracks on his layout. I don't see how he gets away it.
No, I'm not promoting what Tommy Z did. I'm saying 10 amp per track section.
@feet posted:I wouldn't but Tommy Z has 30 amps on his layout. I just wondered if it could be done.
It can be done with a standalone transformer. The one I built will supply 30 amps but I don't use it that way. Rather just hook up multiple 10 amp breakers to it.
This one will give you 60 amps. PSX-AC breakers are 50 bucks. 6 of them plus this transformers are still half the cost of a ZW-L
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Feder...e-phase/361110786617
Pete
@feet posted:I don't recommend trying it. Tommy Z Has 30 amps going to the tracks on his layout. I don't see how he gets away it.
Sometimes I wonder if Tommy Z doesn’t go overboard. I mean I have seen him try to get as much power pulling a long train. He gets excited.
@Oman posted:Oh, yes there is. Every transformer has an internal impedance. Higher impedance produces worse load regulation. Load regulation is based on a constant input voltage.
If the output voltage at no load is the same as at full load then you would be right. I guarantee you will not find that to be the case unless it's a ferroresonant transformer.
That article explains voltage regulation which is just a measurement the voltage drop under load and is a property of every transformer ever made. The transformer you linked to doesn’t have any active circuitry to improve this property, nor do most hobby transformers as they are not regulated power supplies.
If the voltage drop of a transformer under load is a problem, the transformer likely does not meet the required needs of the task you are using it for.
@feet posted:I don't recommend trying it. Tommy Z Has 30 amps going to the tracks on his layout. I don't see how he gets away it.
I'm curious too.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:If MTH closes? Mike has sold the building and publicly announced his intention to retire. I think that's as closed as it gets!
I thought he was trying to sell the business before locking the doors. While I don't see that happening, we don't want to crush anyone's hopes John. 🙂
Re: Hammond transformers - 20Amp 18VAC ...
Before the Z4K and Lionel power bricks were available, my ZWs continuously overheated so I built my power supplies using Hammond 18v transformers. Variable voltage was accomplished using Variacs between the 120VAC supply and the transformer. Essentially, this was an upscaled Right of Way power supply. Now that constant 18VAC is used for command controls, the Variacs are used to trim the max voltage as line voltage varies. I used TPCs for conventional operation and will replace those with PowerMasters.
Considering the cost of parts (transformer, enclosure, meters, connectors, breakers), purchasing 180W UL-approved power bricks is more economical.
@rplst8 posted:That article explains voltage regulation which is just a measurement the voltage drop under load and is a property of every transformer ever made. The transformer you linked to doesn’t have any active circuitry to improve this property, nor do most hobby transformers as they are not regulated power supplies.
If the voltage drop of a transformer under load is a problem, the transformer likely does not meet the required needs of the task you are using it for.
We're just using different terminology. Yes, it's voltage regulation.
You can connect as much power to the tracks as you like if you run your TIU in passive mode, as long as the current doesn't pass through the TIU, the actual current to the track doesn't bother the TIU. There are other things you need to do to insure good signal strength if you're running DCS in passive mode. The most prominent addition is a 22uh or above choke in series with the track feed before the TIU output is tapped in to supply the DCS signal. Obviously, for a 30 amp track feed, that 22uh inductor needs to be rated at 30 amps or more.
@BobbyD posted:I thought he was trying to sell the business before locking the doors. While I don't see that happening, we don't want to crush anyone's hopes John. 🙂
You mean their wishful thinking? Since, as you say, he was indeed trying to sell before pulling the plug, that's pretty telling. If there was no buyers then, it just doesn't seem likely that someone will come along at the 11th hour and buy it.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:You can connect as much power to the tracks as you like if you run your TIU in passive mode, as long as the current doesn't pass through the TIU, the actual current to the track doesn't bother the TIU. There are other things you need to do to insure good signal strength if you're running DCS in passive mode. The most prominent addition is a 22uh or above choke in series with the track feed before the TIU output is tapped in to supply the DCS signal. Obviously, for a 30 amp track feed, that 22uh inductor needs to be rated at 30 amps or more.
I forgot about passive mode. But I still wouldn't do it. 30 amps is a lot of power. 10 amps is nothing to sneeze at.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:You mean their wishful thinking? Since, as you say, he was indeed trying to sell before pulling the plug, that's pretty telling. If there was no buyers then, it just doesn't seem likely that someone will come along at the 11th hour and buy it.
While chances are you're correct about how it will eventually turn out, I don't think it would be exactly easy to sell a privately owned business in a market as small as this. How do you advertise something like that?
I am not an electrical engineer...and didn't enjoy the classes on em and circuits in college...but I have read articles in OGR on the pure vs. chopped sine wave...and the general consensus is that modern electronics in trains do better, or are better protected via the pure sine wave output, and both the Z-4000 and original ZWs generate the pure sine wave, whereas the ZWL generates a chopped sine wave until a certain set point is reached - and then the chopped becomes sine (I don't remember what voltage that occurs?). For that reason, and the fact that Lionel for some reason didn't bother to include banana plug terminals on the ZWL negates even considering that one as I continue to shop for another transformer.
"modern electronics in trains do better, or are better protected via the pure sine wave output,"
Not aware of any reliable information that this is the case. Just people talking and advertising fluff.
As for banana plugs, what could be simpler than a screw terminal? If you want temporary connections, lots of wires are available with alligator clips and similar connectors work fine.
Personally, I like the ZW-L's appearance and features better than the Z4000. The built-in Powermasters aren't much used but are a nice feature if you have the Legacy System (which I don't). The fact that Lionel is still going to be in business in December 2021, at least very likely to be so, makes the ZW-L that much more attractive. After the fact, of course, the thing has been around since 2013. No one can predict the future, but there really aren't any other choices for new products if you want a large transformer. Reconditioned ZWs (I have one) are nice, but then you are in the business of putting together appropriate overcurrent protection yourself. Not a big deal, but one more thing.
@Paul Kallus posted:I am not an electrical engineer...and didn't enjoy the classes on em and circuits in college...but I have read articles in OGR on the pure vs. chopped sine wave...and the general consensus is that modern electronics in trains do better, or are better protected via the pure sine wave output, and both the Z-4000 and original ZWs generate the pure sine wave, whereas the ZWL generates a chopped sine wave until a certain set point is reached - and then the chopped becomes sine (I don't remember what voltage that occurs?). For that reason, and the fact that Lionel for some reason didn't bother to include banana plug terminals on the ZWL negates even considering that one as I continue to shop for another transformer.
I don't know of any specifics on the chopped waveform damaging things, but I can say that at least the theoretical possibility exists simply because the sharp edge can generate greater electrical noise than a pure sine wave. The chopped waveform transformers don't get to a pure sine wave until 100% power since the way they regulate lesser power settings is chopping part of the sine wave to reduce the RMS voltage value.
There is the issue running in conventional mode where you may have better smoke output with a chopped wave transformer, simply because the resistor tends to heat to the peaks of the voltage, I believe Mike Reagan pontificated on that point in one of his videos. OTOH, with command stuff running at a full 18 volts, even the transformer that uses the chopped waveform is no longer chopped, so that distinction is moot.
Any idea as to how many Z4000's are sold each year? Is there a market for someone to take it over?
@Dick S posted:Any idea as to how many Z4000's are sold each year? Is there a market for someone to take it over?
Not if they don't make the boards any more. It would have to be re-engineered!
