NEED APPROVAL THIS LAYOUT WILL WORK?

It will work if you back into the balloon track aka your loop all trestles..

You have my approval.  

Hi Robert,

A few comments:
-- SCARM has an Export option (File/Export) that can save your design in BMP or JPG format for posting.
-- Some of us use the Windows Snipping Tool to capture just what we want from the screen for posting. You can find it by hitting the Windows key and typing "snipping tool".
-- You need 2 reversing loops running in the opposite directions in order to up, back and up again.
-- It's nice to also attach your SCARM file so those of us with SCARM can edit the file without having to rebuild it like I did here.

I assumed the track was FasTrack, so that's what I used. The Blue track is at 6.5" elevation, the Green track at 13", the Yellow track at 0" and the purple tracks are grades of 3.% and 3.4%. The FasTrack Trestle Set is designed to rise 5.5", so you can change the elevations to 5.5 and 11 depending on what you plan to use for decking, if any. If you space the 11 pieces of the trestle set out 11 track joints, the grade will increase.

So I cant get the left 36 to line up and the top elevated part to line up

Robert Cushman posted:

So I cant get the left 36 to line up and the top elevated part to line up

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but PLEASE turn off the Center rail so your photo is clearer and attach your SCARM file so we don't have to enter the tracks ourselves in order to help.

That said, I came closer than you did, but they still won't connect in the software and I don't think they ever will given the collection of tracks you've chosen to use. However, I'm pretty sure they're close enough to connect when you actually put the track together. Once again I've color-coded the elevated track (6") and the grade (now 3.9%). I also added a 2nd crossover or you wouldn't have been able to get back into the inside track. I see I forgot to swap a 30" straight along the bottom, but I did it in the attached SCARM file.

Sorry I’ll try to figure removing the 3rd rail and  try to send the correct file so you guys can edit. Thank you for the assistance. I’ll make another one to finalize before I order track. I was thinking of doing a elevated part up top with another switch so i could keep the subway up top and run the Acela down on the o-72 tracks.

Robert,

To stop displaying the center rails, click on Tools, then Settings along the top menu. That will open a Window with other options, one of which is Centers. Uncheck the box by Centers and hit Okay. The center rails should now be gone.

Attaching the SCARM file is the same process you use to attach a photo, just select the file that ends with .scarm instead of the .jpg photo file. 

Robert Cushman posted:

Sorry I’ll try to figure removing the 3rd rail and  try to send the correct file so you guys can edit. Thank you for the assistance. I’ll make another one to finalize before I order track. I was thinking of doing a elevated part up top with another switch so i could keep the subway up top and run the Acela down on the o-72 tracks.

I didn't mean it to sound like I was complaining, it was meant as a suggestion. Anyway, is this what you were thinking?

NOTE: To download the attached .scarm file, right-click on it and select the option that looks something like "Save As" or "Save Link As. 

Awesome!! That's perfect because the lowest I can go is o-36. This is what I tried to do but I like yours. Which trestle set do you think is better MTH or Lionel? 

Thank you Dave!!!

(Yes it has been a while since I have posted). The connections to the outmost and next loop have an inherent S bend, assuming you use standard switches. If you move the connections to the corners, you can avoid the "S", but you will probably have a hard time getting everything to fit without custom cut track, if you want to maintain two of them.

Robert,

I'm glad to see you figured out how to attach your SCARM file and download mine. Thank you for that.

I didn't play with it, but it looks like we would have had a bit of a hard time getting things to line up, though I'm sure we could have gotten there eventually. However, there are some problems. One is how small the oval would have been, about half as large as my version. Another is where the purple tracks cross over the lower tracks. Like the green tracks, the purple tracks have to rise to full height before they cross any lower tracks. Fortunately, there are enough purple tracks to do so. Yet another is you didn't include the 2nd crossover I added on the bottom. If you trace your design with a finger, you should see that when you come out of the upper loop, you'll be going counterclockwise and there is no way to get back in to the upper loop without backing up. You need that 2nd crossover somewhere and I don't see anywhere else it will fit.

That said, I haven't asked how finite the dimensions are for your space. My version is slightly deeper because of the crossover on the bottom, but even your version comes too close to the edge if this layout is going on a table of some sort.

Regarding trestles, the last time I used a trestle set was the mid-70s for HO, and I didn't use it long, so I don't have any real experience. Of the 2 sets I found, the MTH set consists of 12 pair of piers making for a 6.5" rise with a 4.7% grade, assuming piers are assembled according to directions and not spread out more. The Lionel set consists of 11 pair of piers for a 5.5" rise, not sure of the grade, but I assume it's close to, if not the same, 4.7%. The MTH piers have a solid wall look whereas the Lionel piers have an open-timber look. Depending on where you buy, price might also be a factor and you'll only be using half the set, but paying for the whole set. Have you thought about making your own piers? Or using a foam product like this from Woodland Scenics?

A rise of 5.5" is okay for most equipment, though I think cars like double-stacks may not clear. Since you're going to use a trestle set, I'm assuming the track will rest on the piers without any further support of roadbed. Since the MTH set has 12 piers, I assume you can simply skip one if you want to lower the height from 6.5". As far as I can see, there is room for the either set, so it's up to you.

Both recommend placing the piers on joints, so that's 11-12 tracks depending on set. It also means the 30" track in the grade should be replaced with 10" straights so the piers can be spaced properly. I don't know what it says about curves or where there are small fitter pieces in the grade. Trestle sets are generally designed for simple grades using 10" straight tracks for the entire grade. Most folks here build ramps with plywood, etc., so I haven't read too much info on trestle sets. Most folks also try to limit their grades to less than 3% and most try to get closer to 2%. Obviously, your design doesn't allow for that, so you're going to have to deal with the steepness, especially when the trains are going downhill. All this really means is you may have to control the speed depending on how well your engines work.

And finally, I'm not satisfied with the "S" curve where the grade begins or how close that track is to the track further out, so I'm playing with that. I also hope you know you used a bunch of different model switches of the same size, manual vs remote, etc.

And that brings up another problem with FasTrack. O72 and O60 switches require 1 3/8" fitters (the hRB versions in the library) that have part of the roadbed cut off, but SCARM lets you connect without them, so that's going to change some fitment when I fix them.

Michael, thanks. I knew that, but have been concentrating on all the other fitment issues and simply overlooked it.

John, here is what he is talking about. Note the Blue tracks with the 1 3/8" fitters. There are 2 fitters included with the track, one with half the roadbed cut off (hRB) and one with no roadbed (noRB). One or the other HAS to be there or the switches cannot connect to other tracks. If you look closely, you can see how much smoother the trains can run through the crossover and at a high speed.

I also modified the grade track to make for a smoother run and there are now only 4 places where the tracks won't join in the software. You can now have 2 O72 runs and can run 3 trains; outer loop, inner loop and upper loop.

And I attached to versions. The photos shows one with 5.5" elevation and the other has 6.5 elevation.

Tossing a wrench into the works - add 1' for an 8' x 13' table an it can be all O72

The MTH trestles are stone - I prefer those to the Lionel wooden bents  MTH has a version that fits FasTrack - wrench plan is set to 6.5" to accommodate the MTH 

MTH sets are also 12 up/down for a set of 24

Put a photo of the trestles I setup for a oval for x mas. Just put a photo for the heck of it to show the height.

If there are 4 spots that won’t line up should I hold off on ordering the parts.

As it sits now I currently have the oval which is right on the edge of the 8x12. 1 o72 switch right. It’s in the 3rd photo.

Again thank you both for the help!

40-1113 and 40-1134  6.5"

https://mthtrains.com/40-1134

Robert Cushman posted:

Put a photo of the trestles I setup for a oval for x mas. Just put a photo for the heck of it to show the height.

If there are 4 spots that won’t line up should I hold off on ordering the parts.

As it sits now I currently have the oval which is right on the edge of the 8x12. 1 o72 switch right. It’s in the 3rd photo.

Again thank you both for the help!

Robert, you must have edited your post because this is not the same as what I received via email. That one mentioned the Acela was 5 3/4" and said there were 3 attachments.

Anyway, in it you said the height is 5 3/4" with the pantograph extended. That is from the wheels on a flat surface, so you have to add the height of FasTrack. That pretty much seals the deal for the elevation to be at least the 6.5" you get with the MTH trestle set.

When it comes to Carl's suggestion, I could be wrong, but the grade does not rise to 6.5" before it crosses over tracks on the bottom level, it's under 5" there. Therefore the Acela for sure is going to hit. It also doesn't have the upper loop you wanted.

I just reread the 1st post and I don't know how I missed that you already have a table that is 8'x12". Since you already have the outer loop on the table, I decided to try to shrink things to fit the same space and I think I succeeded by moving the 2nd crossover. I also reoriented the upper loop a bit to get the grade to 4%. And as you can probably see, I was also able to connect everything. However, I don't like all those small pieces and if it were me, I'd try larger pieces that come close and hope there is enough "give" in the track to connect okay. I don't have a version with the larger pieces, but I can certainly make one.

Anyway, I believe this fit the original footprint, allows you to run the Acela on both lower loops and another train on the upper. I also has the 2 reversing loops. 

And just ti give you more to think about, here's a variation using all O36 on the upper loop.

Have you considered this?  Simple and it works.

an Acela needs to stretch out - refined based on dave's clearance concerns of a concept plan - doesn't make you dizzy  - upper deck is 1/4"ply (nominal 3/16") rock sides are 2" foam board

Robert Cushman posted:

Put a photo of the trestles I setup for a oval for x mas. Just put a photo for the heck of it to show the height.

If there are 4 spots that won’t line up should I hold off on ordering the parts.

As it sits now I currently have the oval which is right on the edge of the 8x12. 1 o72 switch right. It’s in the 3rd photo.

Again thank you both for the help!

Sorry, did this get answered - use a 1" dowel with a piece of wood thin top  laterally to make a support close to the joint and avoid the lower track. Or a square piece like a 1 1/2" piece - whatever you have that will work. 

Hey Moon, i just want to park the Acela here when not in use here.

Hey Moon, I was just planning on running the Acela down low and then when its not moving to let it it hide 

SantaFeJim posted:

Have you considered this?  Simple and it works.

$718.69

Lionel Fastrack The Big Climb Layout Plan

Wont work need minimum o72 for Acela

FINAL APPROVAL

Everyone agree on this?

Dave,

I think this is the one I'm going to go with. Were there any hiccups in it with anything not connecting? Also is there any difference between the 1 3/8" roadbed vs the non roadbed?

Also the remote o36 vs manual o36s? Just dont want to order the wrong things.

Robert Cushman posted:

Hey Moon, i just want to park the Acela here when not in use here.

10-4

Robert Cushman posted:

Hey Moon, I was just planning on running the Acela down low and then when its not moving to let it it hide 

That works

I think this is the one I'm going to go with. Were there any hiccups in it with anything not connecting?
No, but that is the one with all those small fitter pieces (yellow tracks). I don't use FasTrack, but I don't like a lot of small pieces in general regardless of the brand of track. I don't know if that many will cause any problems on the flat table, but I'm concerned with the ones in the green loop. If you plan to use an elevated trestle set to support that section, those 8 are going to need some kind of extra support. The 2nd photo shows how close a 10" straight with only 2 small pieces comes. Again, I don't use FasTrack, but I have to believe those are close enough to fit. Just be aware that no matter what you do, I believe trestle sets are designed to support each connection point when standard sized sectional tracks are used, not all these small pieces. Maybe someone with FasTrack will chime in with some real experience.

Also is there any difference between the 1 3/8" roadbed vs the non roadbed?
Yes, big differences. Note the roadbed on both sides in the 1st photo, the roadbed on only one side in the 2nd photo and no roadbed in the 3rd photo. Note that there are 4 blue tracks in the photo above. I believe those need the track in the middle photo with the half roadbed. There are also 2 red tracks and I believe those need the track in the last photo with no roadbed. Carl (moonman) can correct me if I'm wrong. And don't forget that tracks with half and no roadbed come with each O72 switch,  but you have to buy the one with roadbed on both sides.

Also the remote o36 vs manual o36s? Just don't want to order the wrong things.
Again, I don't use FasTrack, but manual means you have to be by the switch in order to change its direction. That means you have to follow the trains around in order to throw the switches before the train gets there. This can be problematic when controlling multiple trains or if  a switch is out of reach. Remote switches can be controlled with a wired controller that can be placed in a central control location or placed on the edge of the table for access. They can also be wired to be controlled remotely via TMCC, but that is beyond my expertise to explain. Remote switches also have an anti-derail feature meaning the train won't derail if a train goes through and the switch hasn't been thrown. There is a significant difference in price, almost double. I don't know what street prices are, but you could be talking an EXTRA $500-$600 for the 10 switches in the design.

I might just do another loop inside and grab another o72 switch just in case something doesn’t fit right. I don’t want to get stuck with a bunch of track I can’t utilize. I don’t get why Lionel charges almost the same amount for a tiny 13/8” as they do for a whole turn. I’ll draw up another and just double check my temporary Acela track.

is there anyway to just do this with just 2 o72 since they are like $90 a pop?

Okay, I was a little confused thinking that was what you already had, but now I believe you just have the outside oval with a single O72 spur for parking 1 train while you run the other.

So, if you just want to buy another O72 switch to make the crossover, you'll have to back the train through the crossover to get back to the outside oval.

However, if you can afford 4 manual O36 switches ($50 each retail), you can do something like this with the single O72 switch you already have. You can't cross the Acela, but you can park it and run 2 other trains that will go through O36 switches. You will just have to manually throw the switches when you want to cross. Sometime in the future you can add another O36 manual switch to the inside oval between the 2 switches that are there and park an O36 train too.

Talked to another guy and may make this elevated and leave o72 outer with just enough to park the Acela and a switch to do this. Let me know what you think Dave or Moon.

Ill re draw this in the morning.

Looks good to me and should be able to be expanded for O72 curves. My goal has been to help get your design to work and not offer suggestions for alternative designs. I’ve got some errands to run in the morning, so I’ll see what you come up with.

Ok here is what I want once I can connect upper loop.

NEW ONE

Ok, Just so you know that once you come down and go to the outer loop, you CANNOT go back into the inner loop to go back up to the reversing loop without backing all the way through or manually turning your engine around and putting it on the other end of the train. That's why I added the second crossover.

You also forgot to add the 1 3/8" hRB fitter pieces to the 2 ends of the O72 switch and make sure the ones you have connected to the Wye are also the 1 3/8" hRB, not the standard 1 3/8". You didn't attach your file again, so I couldn't check to see what you had. And don't forget that the O72 switch and wye come with those pieces.

And when it comes to connecting the reversing loop, it will not connect in the software no matter what tracks you try, so I got it as close as possible. You're just going to have to trust that it will give enough to fit during assembly.

The red tracks are elevated to 6.5". The blue track has a grade of 4.8% assuming you still plan to use the MTH graduated trestle set. I had to swap in an O48 curve at the end of the green track to make sure there was clearance with the outer loop for a parked car there. And again, you are going to have to figure out how to support the red track.

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but the new one also needs the 1 3/8" hRB pieces connected to the O72 switch.

Dave, 

Sorry I forgot to upload the "new one".

I knew it looked goofy without the 1 3/8", I think I'll go with this one. Is it still possible to always finish the inside o72  loop with another right o72 and if I want to pop a left o36 switch to the left of the right going up the ramp to spin the up top around.  I know what you mean that I cant get it back up if it leaves. 

I plan on using the MTH Stone trestles that match the ramp trestles.

Thanks again for the fixes. Also it wont let me add to yours when I download because I dont have the full version of Scarm.

Just had to delete some outer ring to use more pieces

Here's your version which will run 2 train

Here's another alternative that will run 3 trains and still let you park the Acela when you want to. However, you can just let the Acela run and still have play value for 2 other trains.

Dave here is what I went with. For the guys worried I cant reach into the middle, I'm rigging a pulley system with a harness so I can swing myself over the table and have access to any part of it. Haha [Picture the kid from Sandlot hanging from the tree]

Someone asked me my current trains

Trains: Acela

Lionel R-16 Subway

MOW Trackmobile

Lionel HHP-8 Set

Lionel R-27 Subway

Newest is an MTH GENESIS SHORELINE EAST P40 

I would have added the 2nd crossover so I could go back and forth between layers, but that's just me. Hope you enjoy it.

I might but I didn’t want to put another $200 into right but I will consult you before I change up.