Need help with Legacy and a TMCC engine

Have you given the loco an id#? You must do this first:

 1. Move Run/prgrm switch on bottom of loco to prgrm

2. Power up track,  on the remote push eng your id# any 2 digit number, usually two of the cab numbers then push set.

3. Remove track power and put Run/program switch to run, place loco back on track and power up, then follow the video. 

Manual loading instructions can be found on pages 56,57&58 of the manual. 

The memory modules are optional for easier loading, whichever you prefer.

Thanks Rick you are the best!

Quick question....When I set the control type, should it be TMCC because it is a TMCC engine or CAB1 because it is a TMCC engine being run on a legacy system?

"TMCC mode" gives offers the smoothest operation of Lionel TMCC locos.

Cab 1 mode will work but, offers bigger "jumps" between speed steps, most folks prefer TMCC mode.

On a side note the I believe the REL 100 mode may pertain to some ATLAS TMCC locos with ERR components, this has come up before. I forget the exact details,in case you were curious why the option.

Make it TMCC.  TMCC runs much better with older engines (Odyssey 1).  When in doubt use TMCC unless you experience problems then try CAB-1.

CAB1 sets relative speed steps (current speed +1, current speed-1, etc.)

TMCC sets 32 absolute speed steps (speed 1, speed 12, etc.)

For some reason Odyssey 1 likes TMCC much better. 

Good luck and have fun!

I cannot get the engine to acknowledge anything while in program mode, manually or with the module.

I am really beginning to hate this thing.

I cannot even clear out the 3 engines I have entered...it says its cleared, but I still see them.

Chip, have you given the loco an id# per my instructions above? Once you program the id# put the switch back to run, at that point the loco should operate just by pushing ENG 32( whatever number you put)

The rest of the info loading into the remote can be loaded after the loco has been programmed and the  Run/prgrm switch on the loco has been put back to RUN.

Legacy will run any loco without the info in TMCC mode merely by pushing ENG and then the id#, then you can turn the throttle blow the whistle and run the train.

I am going upstairs to try again.

Even though this is a TMCC engine, and I have a legacy control system...am I supposed to have anything from the TMCC set as well?

No, legacy is fully "backwards compatible with TMCC" it will operate legacy and any TMCC loco ever made, from any manufacturer.

For starters, if the loco programs correctly it will sound the whistle/ and startup. It will not operate correctly at this point until the switch is put back to RUN.

ok, here is where we are at....

I can get the engine to run now, but it acts as if, it is still in conventional mode, i.e. my transformer is powered up and at about 65% throttle, not sure how many volts it is as its an MTH Z-1000, and I can control the speed and direction with the remotes velocity throttle, but it has no sound and acts just like a conventional locomotive, i.e. not smooth and not even like MTH DCS.

Like I said, it is exactly as it is in conventional mode, no sounds at all, not even the whistle or bell works.

What TMCC loco is this?

Lionel 6-38103

I think it only has Railsounds that might explain the lack of sound.

But the performance is horrible..

http://www.lionel.com/CustomerService/ReplacementParts/index.cfm?doAction=productPartFilter&number=6-38103&productID=941F3A1D-1C10-48DE-8FABD1F0B503078D&CFID=40394982&CFTOKEN=a4391446287ba20b-77EACED8-A89E-D861-29B96A8B5D7505E9&jsessionid=84307dfcb54d80069dda5a4082353153d6d5

Its a dummy

These have pullmor motors correct? They will not perform  much if any better under TMCC, its the nature of the high power drawing, growling postwar style "pullmor", train motor with no cruise.

For starters I would say bump up the voltage, and these may benefit from the bigger speed steps of cab1 mode. 

If you had sound conventionally, you should have sound in command.  Assuming you have the volume knob on the loco turned up.Try turning the volume up on the remote by pushing AUX1 3333.... on the remote.

Unfortunately "pullmor powered" locos are about as far away from a smooth realistic performance as you can get in O guage. They are strictly for those who like the "postwar style"  gun n run type operation.

The take a ton of" juice" to get going, lack good slow speed operation and slow down and draw even more "juice" at any curve or incline. 

It also comes up as The Texas Special postwar celebration F3 powered a.

No its a powered A Unit.

It never had sound in conventional mode either.

And pushing the speaker icon on the remote does not do anything.

I couldn't find a parts list for the powered unit, only the manual for 6-38103

It looks like this was a powered "add on" to the 6-38100 Lionel postwar celebration texas special AB.It would not have sound.

Lionel 6-38103

The sound would have been in the lead unit of the AB set.

Lionel 6-38100

Tell you what, this was the first "modern" Lionel Engine I have purchased, as the only other ones I have are all vintage postwar.

And right now, if this is what represents TMCC, then I can say it is a pos compared to MTH DCS, and inferior to Protosound, PS1, and PS2....and my MTH was an AA at that.

For the price I paid for this engine I could have gotten MTH DCS PS2.

I have the new Lionel Neil young Pennsy AA with Legacy on the way, thats is a $500 set...I sure hope it is a lot better.

Even just seeing how the Legacy system works, seems inferior to MTH DCS IMHO.

If this Neil Young AA set disappoints, I am just going to sell all of it, the TMCC A unit, the Legacy AA set and the Legacy control set on ebay and never ever buy a Lionel ever again.

They cannot even create their manuals correctly, which cites clearly "73-8103-250 Lionel F3A powered  diesel locomotive featuring Trainmaster Control and Rail Sounds".

So despite what Lionel says on this manual it doesnt have what Lionel states it has, i.e. "Rail Sounds"?

When you programmed the engine, did you set the feature code. 

"feature code"?

I dont even recall seeing that mentioned in the videos or the manual.

Don't get disgusted. The parts diagram shows the B-Unit as having the sound.

Look on pg 16 of your manual follow the reprogramming steps 

So even if its a "73-8103-250 Lionel F3A powered  diesel locomotive featuring Trainmaster Control and Rail Sounds", it requires a B unit for sound?

I am confused...I am reading that right off the manual.

You unknowingly bought an add on to a postwar style set with pullmor motors and no sound chipset,its an entirely different product thn wgat Lionel has offerd in the last 10-12 years.

The Neil Young set you have on order is supposed to come with all of the modern legacy "goodies" railsounds 6.0, can motors with cruise etc etc. There will be absolutley no comparison.

The only thing modern about the f3 you purchased is the date of manufacture, it still has the "old fashioned internals" catering to the guys that grew up with that style of running.

Your trying to compare apples to a lemon

The ab set came with sound, the a you purchased is a "powered add on" to the ab set it didn't come with sound because the ab already has it

Then why does lionel say this is an A unit with Rail Sounds right on the manual?

I do appreciate all your help, but right now I am so disgusted.

I have no use for this engine, as even in conventional mode it does not even run as good as a $169 Williams Engine or any of my Vintage Lionels.

They cannot even name their products correctly...Legacy, Trainmaster, TMCC, CAB 1, CAB2, WTF...did some drunk come up with the logic in those names?

MTH kept it simple: DCS with Protosound (PS1,2,3)...period.

Shelf queen....

I guess I am smart in everything I have done in life except understanding the product maze that is Lionel.

Never...ever again...just gonna stick with MTH and sell all this crap.

a lot of lionel manuals are for many different engines.

as for your comment on the Z-1000 move the handle all the way up and you will have around 17 to 18 volts to the track.  I have one on my small home layout and this is what I do. 

hang in there it will all work out. 

I will do that....if I see a good deal on the AB set I might get it.

I think I am done venting now.

lol

Are there any switches under the engine that say sound/no sound or RS/SS?  Can you see a speaker in the fuel tank?  G 

No speaker that I can see, and in fact the bottom looks exactly as the unpowered B Unit in the series, albiet this one is definately powered. I tries setting it to RS as that is what the manual says it has, also tried RS5.

No doubt this is a powered A unit  add-on for a lashup to the AB set.

My main concern now  is getting the slow part of the layout fixed, and will test it with MTH DCS, which has been very good for me when it comes to slow parts of layouts.

If it goes slow for MTH DCS, then its the track, if not...well then I might just ditch legacy and stay with 100% DCS.

Chipset, it has nothing to do with your layout or Legacy, its the CRUMMY postwar style PULLMOR MOTORs ( no offense to the guys that love them).  If it has dual pullmors, its twice as bad, drawing twice as much "juice",  grinding and growling, slowing down at the slightest load be it curve or otherwise. Pullmor motors will tax the very best of transformers.

It will run a bit better after some good brake in time and maybe a lube of the worm gear and axles, but it will NEVER come close to anything with can motors from any manufacturer.

MTH came on the seen as the can motor was becoming popular in O guage. Lionel has been offering "Pullmor powered" locos in its "postwar celebration series" to cater to the folks that grew up with this typeof train operation.

Fortunately for you, if you decide to go through wth the Neil Young set, from the description, it now has Can motors cruise  etc as I stated above.

I think the ebay seller may have left out details or misdescribed what they were selling, not the first time that has happend I'm sure.

Your disappointment with this is understandable, however, the loco your operating and the results you are expecting from the legacy sytem is comparable to hooking up a blu ray player to a 19" black and white TV and saying the blu ray player is junk.

Heres video of a pullmor motor operation, they require a ton of voltage just to get moving.

Heres an ABA set that is similar to what you would have if you found the AB. Notice how its slows down at every curve when not running at "rail blazing speed".

Here are some Legacy f3's from 2011. These are more indicative of what you would be getting in the Neil Young set in legacy sound and operating characteristics.  Note the cool ancillary sounds like the flange squeal......."audio nirvana"

Thanks Rick, that video is AWESOME!

So.... Pullmor motors don't do well with command and control?

Yep, cannot wait for that Neil Young set!

By the way, I posted a video of my slow spot problem, even my can motor locos have in another post.

They're just old fashioned postwar power and don't benefit from command control the way a can motor does, there is no cruise on a pullmor motor either.

do motors with brushes play any part in this?

All the can motors have brushes, at least all of them that I've ever seen in a model train.  Brushless motors require extra logic.