New Lionel catalog arrives; sticker shock?

He did say Railking scale.
I bought a Railking scale NW2 switcher for $269 with PS2 from the 2011 vol. 2 catalog
If you can find me anything in the Lionel catalog with Legacy for less than $ 269 besides the catalog itself I'm gonna be really disappointed .

Lionels priced itself out of the affordable scale command market.
Scant difference? No there's a heck of a lot of difference.

David

I agree there is a lot of sticker shock everywhere.  I think it is htting everyone.  

I think Lionel is definitely more expensive overall than the MTH, by more than $50, maybe $100 for compareable.  I buy the Lionel anyway, because I think the better sound is worth the difference, plus, recent Lionels run better in conventional at slow speeds (I run only conventional) -  2011 and 2012 diesels they have new electronics advertised to give good smooth starts and slow speeds, and those make a big difference.  On the other hand, the MTH European series has superb detail and paint.    I love 'em.  

I'm with you there Jon.  Notice that an ounce of silver still buys about 10 gallons of gas today, just as it did 10, 20, 50, and 80 years ago.  The problem isn't gas, oil, cotton, gold, silver, etc....it's inflation due to a devalued dollar from fiscal and trade deficits.  Yes, the government tells us inflation is muted so they can keep Social Security COLAs down, but anyone that shops for clothes, groceries, or energy knows the reality. 

I agree Chris. I did not come into this hobby thinking it was going to be cheap. I do fishing too as a hobby and it is just as expensive and has taken a high price turn in the last few years also. Having fishing and o scale trains as hobbies is not easy to do!  Thank god for gift cards at Christmas for fishing or I would have to drop one or the other! 

Either way though I hope they still bring prices down even when I am older. Sure I will be able to afford it but I guarantee that a young boy or girl who can have a Legacy engine for Christmas will fall in love with trains because that realism just lights them up. I have seen it too. My sister loves my E6 because she thinks "it sounds like a real choo choo train". She's only 8 but loves trains. She looks forward to Strasburg and Thomas and Friends. I hope it lasts with her forever because no matter what people say its a nice hobby to do. I just hope Lionel comes to see that they have a wonderful product that if used properly can be extremely powerful and can put them over the top. 

And I did say I didn't know about that.

I was only comparing apples to apples.

honestly prices on trains are up across the board even at train shows..more people cant afford new ones..thus making the price of used ones go up also...idk but it seems the days of finding a 3 dollar gondola car are getting hard to come by haha

The part that I don't get is the price for an '0-4-0' Shifter...$449. That's for conventional control and what is in effect an '027' engine, OK, so it's cast, but that's still a steep price. Why couldn't they put in a circuit board like those new little track inspectors?? (They're about $100). Something is wrong there.

The higher prices will focus everybody to focus on one railroad every year.

Andrew

Especially considering that nothing else is more expensive than it was 6 years ago.

In order to compete with China and India in the world market, we have to become like China and India. If that includes surrendering our quality and way of life, then so be it.

Until industry and manufacturing return to our shores, then that's the way it's gonna be.

Way overpriced in my opinion.  They know they have a small group that will follow them and pay anything for their items, and they price gouge them accordingly.  Sure the 2343's weren't cheap back in the 50's but they are still running.  The modern day junk will be commonly broken with no parts available ever.  Sure there will be some odd balls that survive and actually run in 50 years or will never be opened.  Those will be worth something someday, but overall to me it seems a very high price for a short time span of enjoyment since they aren't made to last at all.  Add to that they just don't hold their value in 5 years.  Just my opinion though.

Actually no, the price of gasoline and food has not tripled. Not close. For example, the price of gasoline in 2008 was $4.12/gal. national average, significantly higher than today.

Printing money has little to do with the price of gasoline, in fact. Unfortunately, many Americans are seriously ignorant about economics, and many base their opinions on politically-motivated talk radio fables.

Contrary to what many Americans think, the amount of domestic petroleum production has virtually no effect on the cost of gasoline. You can drill baby drill until you're blue in the face and the price of gas isn't going to be affected.

The AP did a study comparing the cost of gasoline and the amount of domestic production over the past 30 years, just to prove what economists already know, and in fact there is NO correlation at all between the amount of domestic production and the price of gas.

Why? Because petroleum is traded on the world market. The cost is not determined by the U.S. The U.S. is a small player in world production. What the U.S. produces is placed on the world market and priced accordingly. In England, gas is $10/gal. It's that high because of taxes placed on it, not because they're paying more for their petroleum.

And how much money the U.S. government prints has little to do with the price of crude on the world market.  

I'll add that this hobby is also priced on different levels.  You can find quality trains at much lower prices at train meets.  Just like fishing, you can buy Simms waders and a bamboo rod or rubber waders and a rod bought at walmart.  It's all relative to how you value your money.  It's up to you what you think is worth buying and what is not. 

Well, it's just that simple, isn't it?

I assume you're talking about traction tires. Yah, they've gone through the roof!

Yup. Good healthcare and a good education system would be disasterous for this country.

I think that you're taking him too literally and perhaps missing the point.  I took the statement as a simple reflection upon the fact that whatever the government touches turns to cr*p.  The feds pour money into healthcare and education and get a very poor return on investment due to rampant inefficiencies.

Imagine if the fed ran the model train industry.  We'd be sitting around and posting about the good old days of Lionel pricing.

Alan

I put in an order for UP Centipede.  $2200 for two powered all die cast engine that very few people will have?  Count me in.  If it's oozing with quality then so be it.  If MTH offered a plastic version with only one powered engine for that much then I would have a legitimate reason to gripe.

The only people that are complaining about prices are the ones that don't understand the philosophy you get what you pay for.

I don't hear people praising the Acela for dropping in price (from $1,999.99 to $1,699.99.  C'mon, people, if you don't intend to spend X amount of dollars then don't complain.  If you're budget or entire layout is made of low grade trains and you have no intentions of ever spending over $1k for an engine then don't complain.  Lionel like any other business have their own reasons for raising prices (manufacturing, exchange rates, etc.).  They need to do what they can to stay in business.  If Lionel or MTH fails then there goes your entire layout control.  Lets be realistic people.

like I said best deal out there is Railking scale.  if you want to pay more its your $

Yeah, I'm going to breakdown and order them, too.  I resisted when I saw them in the 2011 catalog - I love anything in UP armor yellow and gray, but I think Centipedes are ugly as the dickens and they were really failures as locos.  

But the 2012 catalog mentioned four speakers: that pushed me over the edge. As you say, $2200 for two die-cast units with a total of four motors, four smoke units, four speakers . . . .  I know they will look clutzy on my layout (too much overhang, etc) but I think they are value for the money at that price, if not exactly a bargain, and I want them. 

It may seem like swimming upstream but it seems to me when prices rise you are forced to buy fewer locos, so the thing to do is to make the fewer you are buying th best possible ones.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head, Lee.  Higher prices force folks to be more selective in what they purchase.

I sometimes get the impression that the carping about prices is more related to the fact that folks can't buy everything they "gotta have" from the catalog.

Rusty

That's something I have been recommending for a very long time.  I guess it takes a weakened economy, coupled with higher prices, for folks to see the wisdom in focusing interests more sharply.

Reasonable prices can still be had on Lionel engines with patience and research, but it's the freight cars they've lost me on. Yes, no one ever actually pays full price, but with the MSRP truly in the stratosphere it translates to still uncomfortably high street prices. It's honestly driven me to MTH Premier freight cars in recent times...

The Union Pacific anniversary set, with the diecast frame alcos, seems to have a very reasonable preorder price. I have not seen the list price.

MSRP on the UP Anniversary set is $459.99.   I preordered it for considerably less, and several of the usual suspects all have it discounted in their early bird pricing.

quote:

FAIR WARNING:  Don't get into the political crap here.  Discuss toy train pricing to your heart's content, but leave the politics out of it.

THANK YOU!

     In doing just a quick check of 1) Lionel GP prices, 2007 vs. 2012 and then average prices of a gallon of gasoline 2007 vs. 2012 on line, the following resulted:

1) 2007 Lionel GP7 with Legacy, catalog price of $399.99 (NYC)

    2012 Lionel GP9 with Legacy, catalog price of $479.99  (CN)

    20% Increase over five years

2) 2007 average cost of a gallon of gasoline for U.S. $2.80  (according to a Reuters article from 12/23/2007)

    2012 average cost of a gallon of gasoline for U.S. $3.94 (according to NBC News)

    40% Increase over five years

Of course, discounts are available for both products.

John Knapp

Erie, not Eerie

Lionel could cut prices by 20% and some folks here would complain that they didn't lower them by 30%..., then still ask "who's got the cheapest price?"

Rusty

The continuing rise in prices does have a "fall-out effect" sometimes.  It was one of the factors in us deciding to upgrade 7 of our Proto locomotives to Proto2 instead of purchasing the re-issues with Proto2 or 3.

Looking for bargains or at least good prices is a lot of the fun of train shopping!  I get high end stuff like the Lionel Centipede but still like looking for lots of cheaper engines and cars.

I see Lionel's pricing structure to be the same as it has always been - something for everybody who has at least a middle class income. They make products way over my budget but I'm glad they make them - maybe will be able to buy a used one someday - like a SRR PS-4. 

It is what it is. If the catalog prices are to high there is plenty of stuff available on the secondary market.

1.3 kids, one still in college; 2.mortgage; 3.car payment; 4.bills; 5.bills; 6.bills; 7.etc. etc. etc.

I'll be cutting purchases to the bare bone except for a small amount at york.  The oil refinery I worked at is now a dust collector.  Somebody in friendly China may get layed off because I cannot purchase their trains anymore.  Not political just fact.

Gee..people on here are complaining about pricing?  Have your trains gone up 10 times in price, or 100 times?  I reverted to train over 20 years ago when

I got priced out of more expensive hobbies.  You could take up one of these "cheaper" hobbies...

In the late 1960's I found and drove home for $350 a 1934 Chevrolet Master DA coupe... kind of ignored at the time because hot rodders avoided the Mickey Mouse independent front suspension. Priced a restored one lately?  Vintage car auctions started about 1970. Prices have gone up 100 times!!

My dad and a great uncle were gun nuts and collectors.  I was into trains and cars

so while I drooled I didn't have any money to spend on derringers, pepperboxes,

and frontier Colt competitors like Merwin and Hulbert, and thought I was already off

on too many tangents.   I shoulda stocked up. Priced antique guns lately?  Don't think some have gone up 100's of times but thousands!!

Haven't heard this lately, but I used to hear people say they were investing in trains

for their retirement.  Luckily, I never thought that way, because a lot of what they

were buying then, current production,  is now worth less....some older stuff, like Marx

train sets, have gone up 10 times since I got back into trains.  I haven't shopped for them, but I bet Lionel Scout sets have not, nor has some of the cheaper plastic Marx,

which can be had on eBay for the 1960 Woolworth's price sticker on it.

Of course, what all these high prices means is...the money is worthless....and people

are getting rid of it for another commodity...BUT...will there be a future demand for

that commodity?  ????? It's like buying a lottery ticket..

Now...if you have a Honus Wagner baseball card down on the bottom of the drawer

in your night stand..I betcha can get at least a buck for it if you take it to one of

these coin and stamp dealers....

As for the first, I don't see it being much of a problem because the folks who buy them are generally the gotta have the latest-'n-greatest types.  They want to dump the older engiens because they don't fit the category.  Sure, the low numbers make it a risk, but it has worked so far.

The economics of it dictate the approach.  I simply cannot afford to plunk down $500 or more on an engine.  If that were my only option, I'd have to change hobbies.  If I am to be gone, I am to be gone, and having the engine or not won't change that, and I won't be worried about it at that point.

"Not a whit;  We defy augury!  There's a special providence in the fall of a sparrow.  If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come:  the readiness is all.  Since no man of aught he leaves knows, what is it to leave betimes?  Let be."  (Hamlet V, ii, 218-23)

As for my kids, ours is a family hobby.  We all have our trains, we all have a place to run them on the layout.  On that last point, I heartily agree!

Most folks on this forum are at the 50+ mark in their lives. (me included......well past the 50+ mark in my case) Anyway, I find that with most people at our stage of life, one of the main topics of conversation, will inevitably come around to prices. Prices of everything and anything. We all live in the past to a certain degree, and yearn for prices to be as they were "way back when"

Trouble is, way back when, there were just as many people complaining about prices as there are today. It's just that they didn't have internet forums to be able to complain to the world, they had to do it face to face.  

We all "want" things, I'd love to go out and order up a brand new 5 series Beemer....but I won't, my Chevy will do just fine thank you. It's all matter of "is it worth it to you". And besides that......all the crabbin' in the world isn't about to change anything, we as a species just like to vent every now and then. Before we go out and blow our budget on that overpriced thingamajig we just had to have.

REV

Another unintended effect of this thread is some empathy for those in this hobby who are on the contemporary end of the spectrum and I am not being sarcastic, or inferring some pose of superiority in operating and collecting largely postwar and prewar stuff, rather this largely shows how different the situation is in regard to venues and choices whether you chose a certain a certain path, or it chooses you strictly by it's appeal.

Whether you buy five out of the current catalog at one time or buy none is so personal that I don't think this situation will translate into whether Lionel is justified or not in setting what they charge as an edict. Opinion seems to be divided by money rather than the value of this or that, and even that is subjective.Cheer leading or brickbats for and against Lionel all seem to me to be beside the point. The fact that little is being said about the products in comparison to their costs says more about opinions on the weak economy than Lionel itself. Sort of a misdirection of attention that is a heat sink for free floating frustration with our times in general. When I was a kid, gas was .27 a gallon, they checked your tires, washed your windshield, checked the oil..its a world of diminished expectations and I have been spoiled. Who hasn't of a certain age? I see kids in other countries living on top of a rubbish heap in a cardboard box..Problems? I have no problems.

My twenty year old son died two years ago and I would throw everything I own out the window for ten more minutes in his company. Some things don't come with a "sticker price"

Correct.  I remember wishing I could afford the outrageous $69.95 for an HO brass steam locomotive back in the late 1960's.  Kinda hard on a 5 buck a week allowance that only was issued during the school months for school supplies and lunches. 

I gave up some school lunches for a month to scrape together the $12.95 needed for a Mantua 4-6-2 kit...

Rusty