May as well get started while waiting for the filament. Here's the culprit. My eyesight is not very good... I had to take a crappy photo and enlarge it to see the split. What material was used for the Liondrive Spider?
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Eaarlier on in the thread someone said it is made of delrin. It seems like delrin perhaps shrinks a little over time and bingo, split!
OK... that's good to know. I just ran a 2.28mm pin vice bit to through the 2.28mm smooth bore to clean up anything that I couldn't see. It went on the shaft with some (but little) resistance. I measured the shaft at 2.28mm. Rod, I think you are getting different measurements... correct? Maybe it has to do with the splines?
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@Dennis-LaRock posted:OK... that's good to know. I just ran a 2.28mm pin vice bit to through the 2.28mm smooth bore to clean up anything that I couldn't see. It went on the shaft with some (but little) resistance. I measured the shaft at 2.28mm. Rod, I think you are getting different measurements... correct? Maybe it has to do with the splines?
Dennis mine measured 2.33 mm OD which I think is the actual shaft, less spline projection. I ran it a few times to make sure. So we differ a few hundreds of a mm for some reason. Nevertheless as long as you have some interference you should be good. And I guess it really doesn’t matter much whether the hole is 24 sided or whatever, once you ream it out you are going to hve a smooth circle. It seems we are relying on the splines to do their job! 
Wait a minute!!! Check out the spline shot... maybe, some little inserts on the inside of the bore. Anyone have some of these motors lying around so we can see what the variables are?
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Dennis you should have just dropped the truck! Way easier haha….
The coupler pins on the spider measure measure 'approximately '1.8mm-2.10mm on each individual pin so they do wear. I have them at 2mm so I'll beef those up to 2.10.
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Wait a minute!!! Check out the spline shot... maybe, some little inserts on the inside of the bore. Anyone have some of these motors lying around so we can see what the variables are?
Inserts like a key in a keyway? Might want to contact a watchmaker.
Pete
I've dropped them out that way Rod... but, I've always had a dickens of a time get them back on. Is there a trick I'm missing there?
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Wait a minute!!! Check out the spline shot... maybe, some little inserts on the inside of the bore. Anyone have some of these motors lying around so we can see what the variables are?
Dennis, it’s hard to tell, but is that just some delrin residue that came off the spider bore when the motor shaft was spinning freely?
@Dennis-LaRock posted:I've dropped them out that way Rod... but, I've always had a dickens of a time get them back on. Is there a trick I'm missing there?
I found that they remove easily turned 90 degrees CCW, viewed from the top, but they install easier turned 90 degrees CW, again viewed from the top. This is based on an example of one! These are the only Liondrive engines I have!
@gunrunnerjohn posted:You're maxing out the build plate, I wonder of some of those on the edge will be missing the far end?
That was just for giggles. I will probably print them out with 12 - 24 at a time with the nylon and delrin as I only purchased 200 grams of each. If, you have a print fail on the last few layers you don't want to throw 324 into the waste basket!
Dennis I measured the cross pin diameter (on the failed delrin spider) at 1.92mm; so I went with 2mm for the model because I knew that would easily fit the spaces in the crown coupling. Probably enlarging them to 2.1mm would be a good idea.
FWIW I had planned on my next iteration to make the cross pins more of an oval cross section, say about 2mm wide by 3 or 3.5mm high. There does not seem to be any necessity for them to be round, and an oval would decrease the degree of curvature on the vertical sides, where they wear. I figured this might reduce the wear rate maybe. 
Another thought is if a crown coupling were to fail (not sure if they are available thru Lionel) there is no reason why we couldn't do up a model for them and print spares of them too.
Rod
@Rod Stewart posted:Another thought is if a crown coupling were to fail (not sure if they are available thru Lionel) there is no reason why we couldn't do up a model for them and print spares of them too.
Lionel does, or at least used to, have the couplers.
@Dennis-LaRock posted:That was just for giggles. I will probably print them out with 12 - 24 at a time with the nylon and delrin as I only purchased 200 grams of each. If, you have a print fail on the last few layers you don't want to throw 324 into the waste basket!
I figured that, but it was too easy a target.
@Rod Stewart posted:Dennis I measured the cross pin diameter (on the failed delrin spider) at 1.92mm; so I went with 2mm for the model because I knew that would easily fit the spaces in the crown coupling. Probably enlarging them to 2.1mm would be a good idea.
FWIW I had planned on my next iteration to make the cross pins more of an oval cross section, say about 2mm wide by 3 or 3.5mm high. There does not seem to be any necessity for them to be round, and an oval would decrease the degree of curvature on the vertical sides, where they wear. I figured this might reduce the wear rate maybe.
Another thought is if a crown coupling were to fail (not sure if they are available thru Lionel) there is no reason why we couldn't do up a model for them and print spares of them too.
Rod
That's a good point... there would be more surface area engaging the coupler as the spider wears down. I've already changed the pins to 2.1mm... update: 2.75 on the vertical keeps the pins within the sphere.
@Rod Stewart posted:Dennis I measured the cross pin diameter (on the failed delrin spider) at 1.92mm; so I went with 2mm for the model because I knew that would easily fit the spaces in the crown coupling. Probably enlarging them to 2.1mm would be a good idea.
FWIW I had planned on my next iteration to make the cross pins more of an oval cross section, say about 2mm wide by 3 or 3.5mm high. There does not seem to be any necessity for them to be round, and an oval would decrease the degree of curvature on the vertical sides, where they wear. I figured this might reduce the wear rate maybe.
Another thought is if a crown coupling were to fail (not sure if they are available thru Lionel) there is no reason why we couldn't do up a model for them and print spares of them too.
Rod
Crowns do fail with the metal spiders and I have been able to get them from Lionel. In fact I think thats why Lionel went to plastic spiders. I doubt they will fail with the plastic spiders but eventually the early engines with the metal spiders will need them when they become NLA at Lionel.
Pete
Though it is still a little premature to be planning a big party, 
in light of the early success with the printed spiders my opinion of Liondrive trucks has come full circle. The fact that they are so easy to R & R and you can get to the drive parts easily seems like a pretty clever design. It comes apart easier than any other diesel power truck design that I can recall. Future changes of spiders and even crown couplers should be a snap, and you don't even have to take the shell off. Ya gotta like that.
One really ugly job though is changing an electro-coupler in these babies (I just did one) The new coupler comes from Lionel complete with wiring to replace all that in the truck, including the 3 pin wiring socket. Pretty much full disassembly of the truck is required, and you need 3 or 4 hands to get it back together. Squeezing the socket and wiring into the tiny crevice where they fit requires patience, dexterity, and some prayers, such that you don't wind up with a short when you are done.
But overall it is a pretty neat truck design, and we probably shouldn't be too negative about it, even though Lionel has abandoned it entirely and does not seem to care to support necessary parts. Granted though, supplying more Delrin spiders would be a complete waste of time; we know how well they work haha! Never mind, OGR aftermarket trainkateers to the rescue!
Rod
Videography is certainly not my strong suit... even worse, holding the phone and trying to control the train at the same time. PETG-Spider... doesn't take an amp just to get it moving as it did when I parked it in the engine shed a few months back.
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Dennis, I just sent you an email wondering if you got the SF running. You answered my question, looking good!
Rod
Yup, saw that! PETG is pretty rugged, wears well and you can glue it... it will be my fall back if the nylon & delrin fail. 2.1mm was a snug fit in the coupler. I did not have to force it at all but there was no play movement at all. Opinions on that? After thought... would it be beneficial if the spider coupler pins were just rectangular slats?
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Yup, saw that! PETG is pretty rugged, wears well and you can glue it... it will be my fall back if the nylon & delrin fail. 2.1mm was a snug fit in the coupler. I did not have to force it at all but there was no play movement at all. Opinions on that? After thought... would it be beneficial if the spider coupler pins were just rectangular slats?
I think as long as you can get the pins to insert into the coupling all should be good. I actually thought about rectangular "pins" too at one point. But when the truck is not perfectly flat below the frame you have a misalignment between the spider and the coupling, and that will result in pin corners contacting the coupling surfaces. It's a bit like a U joint so I think a small amount of curvature in the sides of the pins is better, but that's just my opinion.
Rod
A three hour tour... ran from 4am till 7am ...no issues. I used 7 Die-Cast cars, all heavier than the 7, 15" passengers I usually run with it. I wanted to monitor the motors draw... not the lighted cars and smoke units. She ran smooth and pulled about .75 amp up the 2.8% grade. So far, so good.
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As for gluing, I think getting the glue to stick to a smooth motor shaft is the primary problem. That's why I think the knurled shaft will be the ticket to keeping these from slipping.
John, One of the filaments is showing up today (maybe both). Would you score/rough up the shaft?
Dennis, great news on the successful test. It would be interesting to pop a truck off and inspect the new spider for wear and tear maybe?
Rod, yes. My work space is tiny, tiny, tiny. I'll wait for the other filament to show up... attempt to print with it ...then, inspect the PETG Spider and hopefully install a nylon or delrin spider.
OH!!! Rod... I had said earlier that it was drawing .25amps ...that was without a load ...stupid me!
@Dennis-LaRock posted:John, One of the filaments is showing up today (maybe both). Would you score/rough up the shaft?
I'd score it along the lines of the shaft so the spider slips on without chewing up the whole inside. If you use something like visegrips to clamp it with a lot of force may provide the proper score lines. However, I'll bet Pat @harmonyards will have better suggestions for scoring the shaft.
Great observation John! Let's bump @harmonyards again and see if we can get his attention.
@Dennis-LaRock posted:Rod, yes. My work space is tiny, tiny, tiny. I'll wait for the other filament to show up... attempt to print with it ...then, inspect the PETG Spider and hopefully install a nylon or delrin spider.
OH!!! Rod... I had said earlier that it was drawing .25amps ...that was without a load ...stupid me!
I thought that sounded a bit low. I would expect more like an amp or two on the up grades!
First prototypes in nylon. I dropped so many spiders that I printed a tool to pick them up with and use as a pin vise holder. A quick shot with a heat gun will clean up the 'hairs' in a nano-second. I didn't realize how soft nylon is... you can bore a hole in it with a pin vise, like butter. More to do.
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Looking good Dennis. Will be anxiously awaiting the operations report!
Rod, Here's the pin vise tool for these rascals
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I have a fixture jig for making stakes on these types of motors when needed. I’ve tried using vise grips in the past without any results worth writing home about. These little shafts are an oddity, they’re hard as darn it, but will bend in a heartbeat. Trying to grab the shaft with sharp nippers usually results in a shaft with a wobble if you’re not careful……There’s not a lot of shaft sticking out of these Lion Drive motors, so making stakes with pliers could get dicey…….For a DIY remedy, remove the motor from the locomotive, and use a small piece of angle iron to make a V block. Have an assistant hold the motor, and strike the shaft with a very sharp small chisel. This will yield a nice raised “spline”. The V block needs to rest against something hard, like the anvil portion of a bench vise. I’m still willing to work on this project for y’all in getting these printed in metal. Do we have a close interference fit model? If we get these printed in metal with a good friction fit, a drop of 640, and a couple love taps, and you’d need a blow torch to remove them. Splines would be a mute point …….I got Rod’s file, but is there one you’d rather me try??.I know y’all been back & forth perfecting the file??.
Pat
@Dennis-LaRock posted:First prototypes in nylon. I dropped so many spiders that I printed a tool to pick them up with and use as a pin vise holder. A quick shot with a heat gun will clean up the 'hairs' in a nano-second. I didn't realize how soft nylon is... you can bore a hole in it with a pin vise, like butter. More to do.
Dennis, I would suggest nylon is poor material for these. As you noticed its soft when fresh but with time is shrinks and gets brittle. Thats why you see so many broken split gears. Delrin is better but its still slippery and like nylon no adhesive actually sticks to it. If the motor shaft had a deep spline on it it might be OK but I am not seeing that.
Pete
@harmonyards posted:I have a fixture jig for making stakes on these types of motors when needed. I’ve tried using vise grips in the past without any results worth writing home about. These little shafts are an oddity, they’re hard as darn it, but will bend in a heartbeat. Trying to grab the shaft with sharp nippers usually results in a shaft with a wobble if you’re not careful……There’s not a lot of shaft sticking out of these Lion Drive motors, so making stakes with pliers could get dicey…….For a DIY remedy, remove the motor from the locomotive, and use a small piece of angle iron to make a V block. Have an assistant hold the motor, and strike the shaft with a very sharp small chisel. This will yield a nice raised “spline”. The V block needs to rest against something hard, like the anvil portion of a bench vise. I’m still willing to work on this project for y’all in getting these printed in metal. Do we have a close interference fit model? If we get these printed in metal with a good friction fit, a drop of 640, and a couple love taps, and you’d need a blow torch to remove them. Splines would be a mute point …….I got Rod’s file, but is there one you’d rather me try??.I know y’all been back & forth perfecting the file??.
Pat
Pat I think Dennis' file might be better; he has beefed up and ovalized the cross pins, which should be better. I think we need to give him another 2-3 days to play with them and see if he thinks they are the right way to go. Dennis, what's your take ?
Rod
@Rod Stewart posted:Pat I think Dennis' file might be better; he has beefed up and ovalized the cross pins, which should be better. I think we need to give him another 2-3 days to play with them and see if he thinks they are the right way to go. Dennis, what's your take ?
Rod
Ok sounds good Rod, …….when y’all finalize how it should be, I’ll get one made in metal, and stress test the **** out of it,….that’ll tell the story ……however, if it’s a good friction fit, 640 loctite is going to lock it solid,……
Pat
Pete,
Yeah, I'm with you on this. There are other applications where it would be better suited and I'm glad to gain some experience with it. Delrin is up next for a go. I have a modest amount of experience with PETG having plowed through somewhere around 25-30kg. It's very durable, nice flex and recovery... and, it has taken every adhesive I've tossed at it. There is no adhesive/retaining compound on the PETG spider that did the 3 hour run. I'll inspect that after I play with the Delrin tomorrow.
Yup, 2-3 more days sounds about right. I am learning how to use material I've not worked with so it will take a minute.
3-Hour Test Run 02 is underway. Both Spiders have now been replaced... so, one will have six hours run time on it. More later.
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To add to Pete’s comments earlier in this thread, these plastic spiders will more than likely be fine in the short term. The plastic y’all are printing these in are fresh & new. So running them 3-4 or even 7 & 8 hours continuous right now won’t reveal any issues. It’s going to be a time thing, ….when these types of plastics age, they become more brittle as time goes on. Beings these have to be press fitted, the plastic is being stretched. Time will tell if they split, or if the motor shaft just simply drills through the plastic,……So in a nutshell, age will be the determining factor, in my opinion, not subjected them to grueling tests as soon as the part is installed,…..
Pat
