New Mth Ready To Run Catalog...Thoughts On Going All Digital In Terms of Control?

I don't like the idea of giving a mini Wifi commander to give to a kid. The thing that concerns me is you can tap to the desired speed and the kid can run it off the tracks in an instant. What about the thought of if you live in a household with no tablet or smart phone to use? You just waisted 300+ dollars on a train set.

This catalog wasn't great like they usually are so I'm hoping the volume 2 is promising 

SDIV Tim posted:

I don't like the idea of giving a mini Wifi commander to give to a kid. The thing that concerns me is you can tap to the desired speed and the kid can run it off the tracks in an instant. What about the thought of if you live in a household with no tablet or smart phone to use? You just waisted 300+ dollars on a train set.

This catalog wasn't great like they usually are so I'm hoping the volume 2 is promising 

I strongly agree. I think Mth should just stick with the traditional transformer.

I think it's becoming inevitable for starter sets to not have a traditional/old school transformer.  The adding of what appears to be a scaled down TIU-1 with built in wifi unit to the new RTR sets is IMO a good idea considering that Lionel's LC+ engines also have a bluetooth feature and WilliamsBB will also be utilizing bluetooth for loco control.  From a quick read it also looks as though the new MTH RTR TIU-1 wifi system does away with the direct line of sight IR remote system that MTH used in its dcs remote commander setup.  I also imagine due to the use of the MTH wifi APP that the new TIU-1 wifi RTR setup has done away with the prior dcs remote commander problem of any engine utilized on the remote commander system would have its engine address locked into the #1 position making it difficult or cumbersome to reset to later operate that same engine on an upgraded full DCS setup.

I don't see a problem due to the lack of a traditional transformer and the need to have a "smart" device.  The target market generally has a tablet/smart phone or can obtain one for less than $100.  Furthermore, if someone does not have either a tablet or smartphone the added cost (<$100) can be rationalized or justified by knowing that the added device is a multi-tasker to many other new functions or APPS and not locked to one purpose of running trains.

SDIV Tim posted:

I don't like the idea of giving a mini Wifi commander to give to a kid. The thing that concerns me is you can tap to the desired speed and the kid can run it off the tracks in an instant. What about the thought of if you live in a household with no tablet or smart phone to use? You just waisted 300+ dollars on a train set.

This catalog wasn't great like they usually are so I'm hoping the volume 2 is promising 

You can set speed control limits for each engine via the MTH APP just as you can with the full size DCS remote.  Even if you still use a flip phone for everyday use, you can find new low end no-contract smartphones (Tracfone) or tablets for under $50 sometimes even under $30.  You don't need to activate the phone's service - just use the smartphone app features.  A base Kindle is $40 and WalMart or BestBuy have various tablets at the same price point.

From MTH's description, it appears that the RTR system includes the wifi feature with 100' range.  So if you don't have wifi in your home, you don't need to go out and get a wifi router.

Applause manufacturers for embracing app technology common in most households as a way of introducing a hobby to the younger generation wired to smart devices.

Sure, there are pro's and con's to this whether its cost or operational control but lets be realistic of the times were in, the hobby must find means of growing with technology in order to remain relevant.

So they do not offer a choice?

I am waiting for battery/RC.

I think it is an excellent idea.  Starter sets are often for young people and so it should integrate with a smart phone, the way the rest of life does today.  

I am curious if I will have to buy the DCS Explorer Track Interface Unit to run the train on my fastrack layout?, or does the locomotive respond directly to the app.....I currently run only Lionel but it will be tough to pass on the Canadian Holiday set

MTH has not offered starter train sets with the "traditional transformer" in quite a while. I see this as an upgrade to the remote commander. For those saying they would not hand their smart phone to a kid I have one question, are you serious? These kids are raised with a smart phone or tablet in their hands! My 7 year old son occasionally teaches me how to do things on my phone! The MTH app is not difficult to use and I see any modern kid having zero issues running trains effectively with a phone app.

Full steam ahead!

Once they get these systems get closer to perfection - we can start having cool controllers - kind of like what some video games have.

Take a look at this:  Raildriver.com

Its a controller for a train simulator - and would be "pretty cool" used for a real layout.

Add tactile feedback...

I think theres more to being digital than just wi-fi.

"I am curious if I will have to buy the DCS Explorer Track Interface Unit to run the train on my fastrack layout?, or does the locomotive respond directly to the app...."

I believe you will need the $130 Explorer.  The app needs a wi-fi enabled DCS TIU equipped device to talk to.

Personally I think MTH is seriously reducing the potential audience for their starter sets.   Which have never been big sellers because they are high end and MTH's dealer network is probably less extensive than Lionel's. These new sets are $100-200 more expensive than LionChief sets to begin with. They are going to have street prices pretty close to or north of $400.  The typical LionChief set can be had for as little as $150-300.

These sets and DCS are  going to be less intuitive and more complicated for the rank beginner to work with, given that they need a smartphone or tablet, someone needs to download an app, and there is no physical control device included with the set.  In comparison, a dealer can sell a LionChief set,  and it includes a handheld digital command remote in the set.  And the loco will now also be operable by an app on a smart device (currently Apple iOs only). A loco and remote (or Bluetooth control device) that can be used on any future more complex layout or a  club layout.  So the Lionel set comes with the smart device operability AND a physical remote.

Handing a five year old a LionChief remote is zero risk, compared with a $400-700 smartphone.  It's not that a four year old cannot operate a smartphone. He or she is just more likely to bounce it off the concrete floor or get peanut butter or worse all over it.  And frankly, I use my smartphone for email, texting and other stuff a good bit of the day, so I don't want to turn it over to a four year old.  Call me lazy or ungenerous if you like .   The LionChief remote? You can replace it for about $40 with the universal remote.  So for the beginner without a smart device, or without a mildly competent technogeek to help, or with children or grandchildren under the age of say 8-10, the Lionel set is the obvious choice and much less of a financial commitment to boot. It's no less functional for basic stuff and sound, it's usable on any layout without further equipment.  Just not the high end of a PS3 loco.  And you have the capability of using your smartphone or tablet directly if you want with Bluetooth, no additional devices needed.  I don't see the 100 foot range MTH is touting over Bluetooth as a reasonable claim.  Who is operating a train from more than 20-30 feet away?  You can hardly see the darn thing .

The other side of the argument is that the MTH set has a PS3 loco with lots more capabilities than a LionChief loco.  It's more substantial in design and materials,  as are the rolling stock.  That accounts for the big price differential.  The track is not up to the quality and design of the track in the Lionel set, however.  But both locos can operate on a DCS/Legacy or conventional layout with the appropriate power supplies.  The MTH loco is probably going to last longer. 

For the established hobbyist with an interest in MTH these sets are probably an easy sell. For the new hobbyist or someone buying a set for around the tree,  or for a child, the Lionel set is the easy sell, in my view.  The Lionel set contains a physical controller that is intuitive, needs no setup, and is inexpensive to replace if need be.  It's less complicated, less capable and much less expensive.  Different strokes for different folks.

Provided the app and the wi-fi receiver are trouble-free and reliable this is a brilliant marketing strategy.

Pretty sure that families who can afford to let loose of $400+ for a toy train already have a goodly supply of "smart" devices to run it with, and for those who don't there is a ceaseless supply of obsoleted stuff to be had for cheap.

I'm a die hard conventional runner but I find this quite intriguing.

Pete

Landsteiner posted:

Handing a five year old a LionChief remote is zero risk, compared with a $400-700 smartphone.

Which is one reason they need to focus on Android development.

You don't need a 400-700 dollar smart phone to transmit the tiny amounts of data involved.

Android phones and tablets are cheap - a sub 50 dollar refurb - used just for trains - will do the job fine.

Landsteiner posted:

Handing a five year old a LionChief remote is zero risk, compared with a $400-700 smartphone.  It's not that a four year old cannot operate a smartphone. He or she is just more likely to bounce it off the concrete floor or get peanut butter or worse all over it.  And frankly, I use my smartphone for email, texting and other stuff a good bit of the day, so I don't want to turn it over to a four year old.  Call me lazy or ungenerous if you like .  

My point is really that most of these young kids have already handled smart phones or tablets pretty extensively already. We bought our son a Kindle Fire for $49 when he was two and loaded it up with games and movies. He has never broken the tablet and I probably have dropped it more than he has. 

Just a note:  You can still run these sets with the DCS Remote Commander 50-1033, which is only $50.  I am sure dealers would swap them out.

Another upside of the Wifi unit is that it can run more than one train.

I certainly understand all of the concerns posted here.

Dave

"Which is one reason they need to focus on Android development."

Agreed.  I'm sure Jon Z. is working on it, or a subcontractor.  Since somewhere near or more than half the smart devices outthere (phones and tablets) are Android, makes sense to get this done ASAP.  In my experience, Bluetooth is rock solid reliable for all sorts of things.  And cheap as dirt I gather for the components.  My experience with wi-fi is less so, although it gets the job done.  Be interesting to see how these systems work in typical convention centers with all the steel reinforced concretes and big steel doors and beams .

I love the idea. Usually when I think of starter sets I think of people getting into the hobby and introducing it to children. I don't think there is a child in this country over the age of 2 that doesn't know how to use a smartphone/tablet. I had a couple loops of track around the tree and my 3 yr old loved the WiFi app, especially blowing the whistle. Plus as others have stated you can buy an Amazon fire tablet for under $50 these days.

I assume the DCS Explorer unit it comes with will basically act as a TIU/WIU combo but for only one track?

I kind of wish I had known this was coming as its much easier for a temporary/seasonal layout. If I am correct it looks like it would have all the same features through whichever level of the app that you have. Does anyone know if you'd be able to use it to control track voltage to run conventional trains? Also theoretically if I had a couple of these set up on independent track loops, is there a quick way to switch between the different explorer units in the app?

I like the idea that the DCS Explorer will run all of my PS2 & PS3 engines, old or new. Nice to know that I can run an MTH PS2 engine made 15 years ago with the new DCS Explorer and have all of the same controls as I do with my WIU (Provided I have purchased the standard app). I bought a LionCheif RS3 loco about 3 years ago and it won't work with the LC universal remote or the new Bluetooth app.

My assumption here is that the WIU and the DCS Explorer operate using the same app, not separate apps like LCS and LionChief. I would even suspect that the WIU and DCS Explorer can be joined to the same network and operate together at the same time with the same phone/app.

I am looking forward to more details about this new device. Maximum amperage output? Will it support Super TIU mode? Will it run an AUI?

H1000

I like the idea of digital although, like H1000, I have the same questions specifically the AIU Support. If it'll work, that would be cool.  Maybe during York we'll learn more about this device. 

metsno1fan posted:

I kind of wish I had known this was coming as its much easier for a temporary/seasonal layout. If I am correct it looks like it would have all the same features through whichever level of the app that you have. Does anyone know if you'd be able to use it to control track voltage to run conventional trains? Also theoretically if I had a couple of these set up on independent track loops, is there a quick way to switch between the different explorer units in the app?

This is my theory based on the operation of the WIUs we have now:

You may not have to tell the app to switch between Explorers.  Think about how Super TIU mode will work with Multiple WIUs on a layout. The app will broadcast the signal to all applicable devices as long as they are all on the same (wireless) network. It will be the job of the Explorer(s) to relay the information to and from the engines & apps.

H1000

Landsteiner posted:

Personally I think MTH is seriously reducing the potential audience for their starter sets.   [snip]

 . . . For the new hobbyist or someone buying a set for around the tree,  or for a child, the Lionel set is the easy sell, in my view.  The Lionel set contains a physical controller that is intuitive, needs no setup, and is inexpensive to replace if need be.  It's less complicated, less capable and much less expensive.  Different strokes for different folks.

Time will tell.  In the interim, as a father of a 8 year old and 5 year old, I can tell you with absolute assurance that: (1) any family today that would be in the market for a train set at either the Lionel or MTH price point will have a smart phone or tablet (we either donate the old ones or keep them for the kids) that will run this set; (2) the use of an app with kids will make the product make more sense to this generation because this is how they do everything; and (3) it is not difficult to prevent a kid from breaking a smart phone or tablet (they are actually very hardy unless submerged in water or dropped unprotected on a concrete floor). 

This is not to say that the LC or LC+, as well as the new Lionel Bluetooth locomotives, won't also be successful -- I think that they will be. 

Anyone who thinks this is the wrong way to go is not connected with the younger generation at all.  A single device that interfaces with your environment is the way forward, the smartphone for now is that device.  From RC toys to automated houses it's all about single interface at your fingertips.

I find it ironic how you see so many posts about how to get the younger generations interested in the hobby, then in turn see so many posts putting down these generations and advancements in the hobby which are more likely to get them involved.

Which is it that you guys want?

Plus this DCS explorer unit is great.  Much cheaper way to command control multiple locos and will work for those who don't need/desire the advanced controls a full TIU and AIU setup affords.

TexasSP posted:

Anyone who thinks this is the wrong way to go is not connected with the younger generation at all.  A single device that interfaces with your environment is the way forward, the smartphone for now is that device.  From RC toys to automated houses it's all about single interface at your fingertips.

I find it ironic how you see so many posts about how to get the younger generations interested in the hobby, then in turn see so many posts putting down these generations and advancements in the hobby which are more likely to get them involved.

Which is it that you guys want?

Plus this DCS explorer unit is great.  Much cheaper way to command control multiple locos and will work for those who don't need/desire the advanced controls a full TIU and AIU setup affords.

Yes! I agree with this completely! We have robots and drones that are all wifi enabled in Toys R Us that are selling like crazy! The younger generation is definitely working to a single point interface!

TexasSP posted:

 

I find it ironic how you see so many posts about how to get the younger generations interested in the hobby, then in turn see so many posts putting down these generations and advancements in the hobby which are more likely to get them involved.

Which is it that you guys want?

 

Bingo!

There's a lot of dissonance on a variety of topics on this forum.

This is one of them. 

"Plus this DCS explorer unit is great."

No argument there.  Legacy and DCS are north of $250-300 each.  Not an easy sell. That's presumably why Lionel went to LionChief and LC+ over the last few years.  And now to Bluetooth.  Inexpensive command control that keeps starter set prices south of $300, sometimes far south .  The DCS explorer is MTH's answer to LionChief/LionChief Plus, and a pretty good one.

The question here is should a set come with EVERYTHING needed to operate it? These sets do not.  No amount of arguments that everyone has a smartphone or tablet, or cheap ones are available as separate sale changes that simple, but potentially important factor.   A Lionel set comes with a physical command control remote, and with the new ones with the capability of Bluetooth smart device control.  That's a marketing advantage it seems to me.

What makes it, at least to me, a marketing advantage is that Lionel's sets are priced so that even folks with modest interest or  modest financial means, can purchase a set.  To get into DCS, you need to spend $400 or $450 or so in a set.  If you prefer a handheld remote, you either go with the economy, non-command option of the Remote Commander.  This could be, as suggested,  as an upfront dealer exchange, or perhaps at additional cost of $50. Or you might go, if you are enthused and adequately funded ,  with DCS, at $300 more. To get digital remote command control in a Lionel set, you get the whole deal (albeit at lower overall quality and sophistication in locomotive and rolling stock in most cases) for $300 or less; no additional purchases needed.

For example, over the last few years I've donated a few dozen train sets to our children's hospital at Christmas.  Lately, I've been giving inexpensive Thomas LionChief or similar sets purchased during December from Lionel or Amazon at $80-150 each.  I'm not generous enough to donate a $450 MTH set, mainly because it's so much less bang for the charitable buck.  It's an easy choice for me.  Three or four kids provided with sets vs. one.  Most families are probably going to use it around the tree in any case, once a year for a few weeks.

I'm guessing the typical family is much more likely to spring for a $150-250 starter set with a physical remote, smart device Bluetooth capability,  as opposed to a $400-450 set with no remote and with smart device wi-fi capability.  For the dealer, the sale should be easier, doesn't require any explanations, no need to assist with downloading the app, finding a smart device to buy inexpensively, or other time sinks.

MTH has decided to go full bore carriage trade on their starter sets. Dealers will have to deal with the consequences, or perhaps some will simply choose to go with the lower quality, much less expensive, somewhat less complicated Lionel sets.    Time will tell.

I don't see much of a change.  You still need a transformer, and if you look at the catalog, you'll see this statement.

And every M.T.H. train set locomotive has the same Proto-Sound 3.0 sound and control system as our most expensive Premier line engines.

It seems the big change is they didn't supply the cheap IR DCS-RC and substituted what appears to be a superior option. If, for some reason, you'd prefer the old DCS-RC, they can be had very cheap, certainly not hundreds of dollars, I bought a couple of them for $30 NIB.

I think one issue is people might be put out that they have to supply the "remote", time will tell if that's a problem.  Smart dealers should be ready to substitute the DCS-RC and take the DCS Explorer in trade one-to-one.  I'm sure there'd be a market for the DCS Explorer, everyone wins.

A while ago my teenage nephew was at my house and I was showing him my layout and all of the different controllers involved in its operation. When he saw the DCS & Legacy remotes he said that all of this looked "Old School" and he wasn't very interested.  After I showed the different apps available, his interested sparked and he's off saving for his own starter set.

He was diligent in his research and almost completely blew off the LionChief set because it had a picture of the "Old School" remote on the box and missed the fact the set could also run on a Bluetooth app.  The mere picture of the LC remote on the box nearly scared him away. 

A little over a week ago he was back at my house and wanted to know about expanding an LC into Legacy and DCS controlled layout. The answer was simple, it doesn't. You'll either be switching between apps/phones, or ditching your initial investment at a loss to upgrade.

A lot of this boils down to how manufacturers want to market their products. I do have appreciation for MTH always considering the backwards compatibility with their products. Very few MTH engines (PS1 & LocoSound) are not (fully) support by DCS, WIU, and now the DCS Explorer.  I am willing to bet that my nephew can buy a used PS2 set and the DCS Explorer for a lot less than a new LC+ Bluetooth and have the "Old School" remote to boot.

H1000

gunrunnerjohn posted:

 Smart dealers should be ready to substitute the DCS-RC and take the DCS Explorer in trade one-to-one.  I'm sure there'd be a market for the DCS Explorer, everyone wins.

That's a pretty good deal for the dealers when you compare the features and cost of the IR Remote to the DCS Explorer.  But hey, give the people what they want!

Keystone posted:

SDIV Tim posted:

I don't like the idea of giving a mini Wifi commander to give to a kid. The thing that concerns me is you can tap to the desired speed and the kid can run it off the tracks in an instant. What about the thought of if you live in a household with no tablet or smart phone to use? You just waisted 300+ dollars on a train set.

This catalog wasn't great like they usually are so I'm hoping the volume 2 is promising 

You can set speed control limits for each engine via the MTH APP just as you can with the full size DCS remote.  Even if you still use a flip phone for everyday use, you can find new low end no-contract smartphones (Tracfone) or tablets for under $50 sometimes even under $30.  You don't need to activate the phone's service - just use the smartphone app features.  A base Kindle is $40 and WalMart or BestBuy have various tablets at the same price point.

From MTH's description, it appears that the RTR system includes the wifi feature with 100' range.  So if you don't have wifi in your home, you don't need to go out and get a wifi router.

Ah, Mr. Negative STRIKES AGAIN!  The very same problem could occur with the TMCC "red control" knob or the DCS handheld.  Show me a household that does not have a tablet or smart phone.  

My thinking.........................BIG MARKETING MISTAKE!

One of the biggest complaints I have heard on this forum about LionChief products is the lack of compatibility with Legacy. MTH has answered this in a big way with this release. You now have a fully functioning PS3 engine and interface. According to the reading I have done the DCS Explorer now gives you access to the majority, if not all, of these features in the starter set. The remote commander system gave you very limited access to the DCS functions.  The Explorer system allows control and programming of multiple engines. Remote commander did not. We are getting hung up on the fact a smart device is required in order to run these starter sets. I really think this is going to be on a non-issue for most folks!

Goshawk posted:

One of the biggest complaints I have heard on this forum about LionChief products is the lack of compatibility with Legacy. MTH has answered this in a big way with this release. You now have a fully functioning PS3 engine and interface. According to the reading I have done the DCS Explorer now gives you access to the majority, if not all, of these features in the starter set. The remote commander system gave you very limited access to the DCS functions.  The Explorer system allows control and programming of multiple engines. Remote commander did not. We are getting hung up on the fact a smart device is required in order to run these starter sets. I really think this is going to be on a non-issue for most folks!

Precisely. I think it's not only a great starter kit for someone getting into the hobby, but someone who's been on the fence about getting into DCS. Now instead of buying about $480 worth of equipment (TIU, Remote & WIU) you can spend slightly less than that and get a complete train set and a very good introduction into DCS that will operate everything a full DCS system would. 

It looks like the DCS Explorer Track Interface Unit is $129.00 by itself.

Do you need anything else besides that to run trains? (besides a phone/tablet)

I just fired up an old Android tablet and installed the Wi-Fi DCS app - looks pretty straight forward.

Is that all you need to get into this?

Roving Sign posted:

It looks like the DCS Explorer Track Interface Unit is $129.00 by itself.

Do you need anything else besides that to run trains? (besides a phone/tablet)

I just fired up an old Android tablet and installed the Wi-Fi DCS app - looks pretty straight forward.

Is that all you need to get into this?

Think so!

Ok - I see...the DCS Explorer Track Interface Unit 50-1035 is a 2017 catalog item - and not available yet.

When do these things become available?

Swafford posted:

My thinking.........................BIG MARKETING MISTAKE!

Just wondering . . .  Did you think that "New" Coke was a great idea? 

Pete

Texas Pete posted:

Swafford posted:

My thinking.........................BIG MARKETING MISTAKE!

Just wondering . . .  Did you think that "New" Coke was a great idea? 

It wasn't Pete, that's why they went back to "Coke Classic".

"

Do you need anything else besides that to run trains? (besides a phone/tablet)"

Does the Explorer include a voltage source (wall wart or similar)?  I must have missed that when reading the announcement.  If not, should be relatively inexpensive.

"One of the biggest complaints I have heard on this forum about LionChief products is the lack of compatibility with Legacy. "

I would say a lot of that is a misunderstanding of the capabilities and intentions of LionChief products. They are entirely operationally compatible with Legacy.  The only caveat is that you cannot use the Legacy system to control them.  You use the entirely compatible LionChief remote that comes with every set or loco.  If having an extra remote for anyone to use is incompatible, then it's incompatible.   But mostly, my take, is it's not any material incompatibility but a lack of hands on experience with and understanding of the system.

I think the continued compatibility of PS2 and PS3 locos is a plus for the MTH system, but it increases the expense strikingly for beginners, as the price of the sets demonstrates.  High bar to get a consumer to spend $400-500 on a "toy" with relatively limited play value compared with other devices in that price range. 

Landsteiner posted:

"

Do you need anything else besides that to run trains? (besides a phone/tablet)"

Does the Explorer include a voltage source (wall wart or similar)?  I must have missed that when reading the announcement.  If not, should be relatively inexpensive.

Looks like it is powered by something akin to a laptop power supply...and then the unit supplies power to the track via red/black leads.

Seems to me MTH just took themselves out of the ready to run set business.

Holy shaving Cream they even copied Lionel's American Flyer.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Texas Pete posted:

Swafford posted:

My thinking.........................BIG MARKETING MISTAKE!

Just wondering . . .  Did you think that "New" Coke was a great idea? 

It wasn't Pete, that's why they went back to "Coke Classic".

I've always been a Pepsi man but even I knew that.  Just wanted to check on the man's overall marketing savvy, since he thinks that WiFi DCS is such a big mistake. 

Pete

"since he thinks that WiFi DCS is such a big mistake."

I took it that he meant that not having the essential remote control handheld in the package was a mistake.  If Android wi-fi communication devices are so cheap at the retail level, as some have pointed out, why not include a simple one in the set?  Then the purchasers don't have to devote their own device to the train unless they want to.  At the price point of $400-450, another $20-25 isn't going to change your target audience much, or lead to consumer resistance, no?

Landsteiner posted:

"since he thinks that WiFi DCS is such a big mistake."

I took it that he meant that not having the essential remote control handheld in the package was a mistake.  If Android wi-fi communication devices are so cheap at the retail level, as some have pointed out, why not include a simple one in the set?  Then the purchasers don't have to devote their own device to the train unless they want to.  At the price point of $400-450, another $20-25 isn't going to change your target audience much, or lead to consumer resistance, no?

That might increase the need for customer support(overhead) needlessly.

And I think the expectation is - you would buy a dedicated device just for Train uses...not re-purpose the phone you use everyday.

Landsteiner posted:

"since he thinks that WiFi DCS is such a big mistake."

I took it that he meant that not having the essential remote control handheld in the package was a mistake.  If Android wi-fi communication devices are so cheap at the retail level, as some have pointed out, why not include a simple one in the set?  Then the purchasers don't have to devote their own device to the train unless they want to.  At the price point of $400-450, another $20-25 isn't going to change your target audience much, or lead to consumer resistance, no?

That's what I like about written communication on the internet - the possibilities for misunderstanding are almost infinite.

To me, no control device in these sets is, in this instance, simply not an issue, although there apparently are some who would make it one.  I'm betting MTH has a big winner with this strategy.

Pete

I've said this before...I think both Lionel and MTH want out of the hardware base remote control game.  It's so much easier for them to make a software update than having to service, produce, and support a remote.  The LC Bluetooth and the New MTH WiFi is just the beginning in my opinion.

I think this isn't really a bad deal.  Like most other things it will take time for those folks to come around.  Personally I prefer a hardware remote but hated the MTH remote that came with the sets primarily because it was so sensitive to line of sight.  Sooner than later we'll all have to adapt.

Landsteiner posted:

"One of the biggest complaints I have heard on this forum about LionChief products is the lack of compatibility with Legacy. "

 

I would say a lot of that is a misunderstanding of the capabilities and intentions of LionChief products. They are entirely operationally compatible with Legacy.  The only caveat is that you cannot use the Legacy system to control them.  You use the entirely compatible LionChief remote that comes with every set or loco.  If having an extra remote for anyone to use is incompatible, then it's incompatible.   But mostly, my take, is it's not any material incompatibility but a lack of hands on experience with and understanding of the system.

I don't think we are talking about the same threads. I have seen comments on extra remotes laying around and comments like "Why do I need another remote when I have a Legacy system?" 

Additional note on the price, I just looked at several train set prices. The prices of the new MTH sets are MSRP. We don't know what they retail for yet, but the price will probably be not that much different than the Lionel sets with Bluetooth. These MTH sets are truly going to be starter sets. I am also posting a link for several wifi enabled gadgets that you can buy. These all require a "smart" device. This is a trend in toys. I think getting missed in this, is the fact that a device is not included is not really going to matter to the younger generations. We say we want younger people to get involved in O gauge and I think this is something that is going to appeal to younger folks and definitely not be a detriment! 

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/8...you-secretly-desire/

MartyE posted:

I've said this before...I think both Lionel and MTH want out of the hardware base remote control game.  It's so much easier for them to make a software update than having to service, produce, and support a remote.  The LC Bluetooth and the New MTH WiFi is just the beginning in my opinion.

I think this isn't really a bad deal.  Like most other things it will take time for those folks to come around.  Personally I prefer a hardware remote but hated the MTH remote that came with the sets primarily because it was so sensitive to line of sight.  Sooner than later we'll all have to adapt.

Dedicated Handheld remotes like the DCS, Legacy, LionChief, and MTH IR remotes are expensive to produce, and out date quickly.  Smart devices can be changed & adapted quickly through software updates that cost nothing to ship (download).

Thinking back, my LC R-T-R set didn't come with electricity or an outlet to plug the power adapter into. So I guess it doesn't have everything you need in the box either.... Wait a minute, I think Lionel implies that these are the basic requirements needed to operate my set and everyone has this before they purchase... Just like a tablet or smart phone, They have been around for more than 10 years and have become a staple in our society. I don't think the Smart Phone / Tablet fad isn't going away anytime soon.

In my years of IT work, I have run into many situation where people (of all income levels) purchase monthly internet service but do not own a computer or laptop, Just smart TV's, Tablets, and phones.

The target buyer here is a younger audience, if you start waving "Old School" remotes in their face, they will walk away.  Put it on a smart phone with an app and you'll catch their interest.

H1000

"We don't know what they retail for yet, but the price will probably be not that much different than the Lionel sets with Bluetooth."

Point taken.  However MTH sets have in the past almost never been discounted more than about 10%.  It's not unusual to see Lionel sets discounted 20 or even occasionally as much as 30-50%. The starting prices for the Bluetooth sets are at half or less ($200 and up) than these higher quality/capability MTH sets ($400 and up).  Thus I'm guessing we'll see a substantial price difference at retail hobby shops and on-line.

I bought this set from one our forum sponsors for $350.00. Take a gander at the msrp and tell me how much more expensive the new sets are going to be... This set is MUCH nicer than any $200 Lionel set.

http://mthtrains.com/30-4219-1

"This set is MUCH nicer than any $200 Lionel set."

And at almost 100% more the price, it ought to be.  Lionel is betting that most starter set purchasers are making their last set purchase, and only a small percentage will go on to be life-time hobbyists.  And reaching many more people with a $200 versus $400 set ( the new sets list for that and more) is part of the strategy I'd guess.

You got a better than average discount on that MTH set in my experience.  The dealer margin is only 20% according to my dealer.

The point being MTH is not doing anything they have not already done. The MTH sets have always been higher quality and more expensive. Their msrps have been upwards of $400 for a while.

LandSteiner, I hope you know I am enjoying this friendly conversation with you. It is not meant to be mean spirited. This sometimes get lost in the computer world and the intent cannot be seen. If we were in person, I hope you would see that!!!

Landsteiner posted:

The starting prices for the Bluetooth sets are at half or less ($200 and up) than these higher quality/capability MTH sets ($400 and up).

I would beg to differ on the quality. I have purchased a few of the $200 LC sets, and these things have less metal parts than the MPC (Mostly Plastic C***) era stuff that my dad bought. I think Lionel would make the motors and wheels out of plastic if they could. 

My LC R-T-R sets are for kids to run, they crash and frequently get broke and glued back together. The MTH sets have more control features and I use these generally for kids age 6 and older so they can learn how to run the engine more responsibly.  I have plenty of kids who never graduate past using an LC set.

MY LC sets are cheap, so cheap that I can tell Lionel didn't even think of quality or longevity when they designed them. When they break, I fix them to the extent of duck tape no longer being able to hold it together anymore, and then throw it away. IMO, the LC sets are a cheap way to flood the market with disposable trains, this fine if you like buying toys for kids who will never appreciate them. 

Keep in mind I'm talking about LC only, LionChief PLUS is a completely different beast. LC+ is well engineered, and built with quality in mind. But now we're also talking about spending $350 on just an engine, no set, no track, no power source.

H1000

booker110 posted:

I am curious if I will have to buy the DCS Explorer Track Interface Unit to run the train on my fastrack layout?, or does the locomotive respond directly to the app.....I currently run only Lionel but it will be tough to pass on the Canadian Holiday set

It is the same locomotive internally as MTH has been making, the only difference is that complete sets will now come with a new unit allowing for control on a smart device without buying the complete DCS system.

These can still be used with a regular transformer out of the box, said boxes just don't come with transformer. The CP holiday express doesn't even seem to come with track or the wifi unit so you would need to already have track and transformer anyway.

Judging from these kinds of questions MTH needs to make their catalog more clear.  

"I would beg to differ on the quality. "

Not sure what you mean.  I wrote that MTH sets were higher quality in general.  They also cost 50-100% more, which is what you'd expect for the higher quality.  Sets are not always designed for a lifetime of year round service,  as perhaps 90% of them are used seasonally, once per year for a few years. 

The lowest end LionChief sets are designed for small children, not adolescents or adults seeking a lifetime hobby.  The audiences are different.  MTH sets are, as I've written, the carriage trade, Cadillac level, whatever metaphor you choose.  They are priced accordingly.  Lionel designs and prices many of their starter sets for the Chevrolet level in general. 

The higher priced Lionel sets are similar in quality to the MTH sets, but include less functionality in most instances, and they are still about  50-100 dollars cheaper at street prices.

Lionel figures that if you stick with the hobby, you are more likely to buy additional track (higher quality than what is MTH sets according to many opinions), rolling stock and maybe a LC+ loco.  MTH presumably figures that someone buying one of their sets is already committed to the hobby  or is simply more willing to spend more initially for higher quality.

is this wifi thing able to run on android devices or is it stuck on just apple?

is the app free and able to be purchased off google play ?

i have a moto e smartphone and RCA Voyager tablet are those compatable?

do i have to buy extra hardware to run the set

At 27 years I'm the younger generation of O gauge.  I didn't have electric trains as a kid but had Thomas and being from PA, I liked trains.

I ran my first trains on Christmas 2015, but was reading this forum before that, and researching the best way to get into O gauge.  At first, I really thought that the MTH starter set was the way to go and then best value for the dollar.  I was thinking 30-4234-1 Pennsy Heritage Es44ac RTR set  The reason that I eventually chose a different option was the IR remote commander.  Too much bad feedback about needing to point the controller for line of sight.  Lionchief communication is more robust and reliable.  Plus, the cost to add additional MTH locos as I expand would include $300 for full DCS. 

Instead of MTH, I decided to buy Lionchief Plus PRR RS3 and didn't start off with a set. I like the simple command control of the remote and and good features including Electro-couplers.   I would say that with the new DCS wifi Explorer, that choice likely would have been different, and I am now looking into the possibility of MTH power again.  I am thinking I could add a RTR set with Explorer to my setup and then have cheap command control of multiple MTH locomotives as I grow.  I was excited about the addition of Lionchief Bluetooth, but i think this has upped the Ante on that. 

Yes, I think Lionel RTR sets will continue to dominate due to the name recognition and the lower price point.  But, for someone who understands the higher quality of the MTH set, I think the addition of the new DCS wifi Explorer instead of the Remote Commander is a huge and exciting step forward. 

"LandSteiner, I hope you know I am enjoying this friendly conversation with you. It is not meant to be mean spirited. "

Certainly, never thought otherwise.  Have a splendid weekend.

Landsteiner posted:

"I would beg to differ on the quality. "

 

Not sure what you mean.  I wrote that MTH sets were higher quality in general.  They also cost 50-100% more, which is what you'd expect for the higher quality.  Sets are not always designed for a lifetime of year round service,  as perhaps 90% of them are used seasonally, once per year for a few years. 

The lowest end LionChief sets are designed for small children, not adolescents or adults seeking a lifetime hobby.  The audiences are different.  MTH sets are, as I've written, the carriage trade, Cadillac level, whatever metaphor you choose.  They are priced accordingly.  Lionel designs and prices many of their starter sets for the Chevrolet level in general. 

The higher priced Lionel sets are similar in quality to the MTH sets, but include less functionality in most instances, and they are still about  50-100 dollars cheaper at street prices.

Lionel figures that if you stick with the hobby, you are more likely to buy additional track (higher quality than what is MTH sets according to many opinions), rolling stock and maybe a LC+ loco.  MTH presumably figures that someone buying one of their sets is already committed to the hobby  or is simply more willing to spend more initially for higher quality.

If Railking is the Cadillac, what does Premier compare to?

It's hard to make an apples to apples comparison when MTH does not offer a Chevrolet grade product. It's very difficult too say my "compact SUV" is better than your "Full Size SUV" because it does all of the same things and is cheaper, but leaves out all of the benefits that the Full size offers above the compact.

To bring the discussion to a par level, I would stop including the cheap LC stuff all together and start comparing MTH R-T-R sets to LC+ R-T-R sets only. This is more level playing field in terms of value and features.

MTH has obviously opted not to produce extremely cheap toys trains, and prefers to have their name associated with quality. I think to do so would go against the very reason Mike Wolfe started manufacturing his own trains in the 90's. Don't get me wrong, the cheap toys have there place, but if you want to leave a lasting impression on somebody and get them interested in the hobby don't hand them the absolute cheapest thing you can find or build.  Young adults & even kids can tell the difference. I could back 90's with all of the MPC stuff my dad had and then we got our first MTH PS1 engine, what a difference.

My daughter is 3 and she knows the difference between my smart phone and her cheap toy "beep beep" phone. She knows to be careful with my phone and the toy phone has no value to her. She's pretty smart and easily can tell the difference between a quality product and a cheap one.

In my youth, I had a really cheap toy train set that was "accidentally" discovered to work on O gauge track. It was battery powered and had forward & reverse buttons and a hook that magically worked with O gauge couplers. I think it cost my dad around $15 in 1985. I hope I can find an LC set to beat that price point.

Just because you managed to build cheaper products that run on the same track doesn't mean you are doing credit to this hobby. I would not rather it not revert to the dark MPC era.

H1000

"If Railking is the Cadillac, what does Premier compare to?"

I said the MTH sets were the Cadillac level of sets. And priced accordingly. Premier is the mid-level to lower end of the high end of  standalone locomotive sales, with Lionel Legacy locos usually having a few more features, more reliable digital system (in my view), superior sound and better after market service.  And the Legacy locos, like the MTH sets compared with LionChief, are priced at a premium compared with Premier MTH locos, like it or not, and agree with my assessment or not.

And MPC wasn't the wasteland you make it out to be.  There were some decent quality products, and frankly, they were the only game in town from 1970 to the early 1990s.  PS1 were nice locomotives, but the control and sound electronics were inferior to those made by Lionel once TMCC hit the shelves in the mid-1990s.  Appearance and mechanical reliability were excellent.  PS1 electronics, to be charitable, had many glitches (the infernal internal battery, the mediocre sounds, the tendency to go south under some circumstances).  So it's not like MTH locos were revolutionary advances.  What they were were economic and scale appearance advances.  Much better scale appearance for more reasonable prices.

Not as simple and clearcut as you suggest, but just my take on the 1990s to present, and the MPC era.

Certainly MTH forced Lionel to up their game, but Lionel's production of TMCC forced MTH to up their game and come up with something less kludgey than PS1.  So competition was good overall.

I think that Lionel and MTH sets are addressing rather different markets, so I'm not sure it makes a good analogy.  I think LC and LC+, and their success did inspire MTH to come up with something better that the Remote Commander, which was mediocre and trailing edge technology at best.  The Explorer looks much more functional and good value.

I also think you are unduly critical of LionChief sets.   They serve their purpose admirably in most instances and represent good value in the toy market.  They also include Fastrack, which is, to the best of my knowledge, a better product and more likely to last a long time than the corresponding MTH product.  So not as straightforward as perhaps you are suggesting.  You seem to be saying that MTH sets are wonderful and LionChief are crap.  Perhaps I am misreading you.  But if not, I think you are incorrect in a number of respects.

Then let's stop comparing the the LC (The lowest end LionChief sets are designed for small children, not adolescents or adults seeking a lifetime hobby.)  to MTH sets which are not intended for small children and are for adolescents or adults seeking a lifetime in the hobby.  Until you move into LC+ do you get those advance Lionel offerings to that of MTH.

To be fair, I own multiple LC sets and one LC+ loco. I use them on the kids layout, most operators are 5 years and younger. (I will also note that we have a wooden Thomas layout that gets played with equally as much as the LC kids layout) I intend to buy more LC sets as my others break down and get tossed, I usually replace about one a year. So in a way, I myself do validate your point that LC fills it's niche market and there is a need for it. MTH apparently isn't vesting into sets that are designed for small children, that market is flooded even with choices other than LC and in other gauges or wooden toys. That's MTH's choice and probable a marketing decision. But to compare a set that costs half as much with 50% of the features and say that it is a better option is not apples to apples.

Another question is Lionel always going to be committed to making the $100 - $150 LC sets? I've always picked mine up on a clearance sale at Menards but I didn't see any this last Christmas. Honestly I hope so.

H1000

A young person that is passionate about the different applications, Wi-Fi Capabilities, DCS Wi-Fi Modules, iPhones, iPads and not passionate and excited about model trains and real railroads...........Well, their interest will last a few months. End of Story! Will these new command technologies keep the interest going to develop a new model railroader............I don’t see it happening!

This hobby is about a passion for trains and railroading. All the bells-and-whistles technology in the world (and that technology is ever-changing) will not do much to create a new hobbyist. That is something that has to come from within, and it is generally not sparked by an iPad or iPhone, or other such gizmo.

Swafford posted:

A young person that is passionate about the different applications, Wi-Fi Capabilities, DCS Wi-Fi Modules, iPhones, iPads and not passionate and excited about model trains and real railroads...........Well, their interest will last a few months. End of Story! Will these new command technologies keep the interest going to develop a new model railroader............I don’t see it happening!

Why does it have to be one or the other?  People can have multiple passions and hobbies.  A smart device and the wifi app are simply the interface for this, which is the modern way for interacting with electronic devices.  It's not about "new" command technologies, it's about the interface and being user friendly.  I don't know how a lot of you expect the hobby to carry on with attitudes like this.

My dad is 72 and highly active and a quick adopter of technology.  If there had been smartphone interface for when we had our large HO layout, he would have been much more engaged in operating than what he was with the very dated DCC remote (even 14 years ago they were dated).

Like or not, smartphone and tablet interface is here to stay, and for many applications is the most user friendly and fluid way to interface.  Having all of your interfaces on a single device which is familiar is more appealing to most.

FYI, all the absolutes about who has what are not accurate.    Saying everyone has and uses these devices is silly.     I go to lunch with 6 other guys every wed.    All but one of  us is retired.    We are all model railroaders and railfans.    We build models, we do operations, we host round robin groups.      Of the 6 of us, 2 for sure have smart phones.    One does a lot of internet stuff on his, the other does not seem to.     2 others may have fairly new cellphones, not sure, since we talk at lunch not sit and stare at our phones.     4 of us for sure have cell phones, and 1 guy does not even have that.      So out of 7 people who buy trains, 1 uses a bunch of these app-thingeys or whatever.     

By the way none of my 4 grandkids have smart phones either.    My son will not let his 3 (4-7-10) have them and my daughter's one has not convinced her mom to give in yet, she is 7.    

So my mini-poll seesm to indicate that the universal use of these portable devices is not so universal.

prrjim posted:

FYI, all the absolutes about who has what are not accurate.    Saying everyone has and uses these devices is silly.     I go to lunch with 6 other guys every wed.    All but one of  us is retired.    We are all model railroaders and railfans.    We build models, we do operations, we host round robin groups.      Of the 6 of us, 2 for sure have smart phones.    One does a lot of internet stuff on his, the other does not seem to.     2 others may have fairly new cellphones, not sure, since we talk at lunch not sit and stare at our phones.     4 of us for sure have cell phones, and 1 guy does not even have that.      So out of 7 people who buy trains, 1 uses a bunch of these app-thingeys or whatever.     

By the way none of my 4 grandkids have smart phones either.    My son will not let his 3 (4-7-10) have them and my daughter's one has not convinced her mom to give in yet, she is 7.    

So my mini-poll seesm to indicate that the universal use of these portable devices is not so universal.

That would indicate that you retired guys are probably not the target demographic for these starter sets...that's not surprising.

You're not expected to use the phone you use everyday. And - they aren't doing this because "everybody has phones"

Buy a phone/tablet that is dedicated to trains...and use it solely for trains. Other than the size of the screen - these devices are largely, the same.

I don't think you need the latest and greatest phone/tablet to run this - I installed the App on a 6 year old ASUS tablet running a rusty old Android 4.0.3 - and it seems fine.

Our 7 year old grandson loves using the phone with the MTH app. He asks now if he can use that, before having to use the remote.

 Does the app alone cause the excitement? I would only guess that it adds to the enjoyment as long as it works correctly. These young children are very tech heavy. We used to go out and play baseball and games. They play it online or on their electronics. Adding the app may help tie the toy trains to modern games.

I would love to be a fly on the wall in Mike Wolfe's office as he sits there reading this thread.

I've already said in other threads that I'm not interested in operating trains with my iPhone. However, I agree with those that suggest this approach is right for bringing younger people into the hobby. And, if MTH were to discontinue their remote, I would adapt (if mine wasn't working). That is, use my iPhone.

Maybe I'm missing something, but here's my take on it, FOR MY SPECIFIC APPLICATION:

I run TMCC. Don't have Legacy system yet, have 1 Legacy engine.  Most of my engines are conventional.

I never really considered MTH until a few weeks ago - then I saw a friend's BNSF ES44AC and fell in love with it, so I started seeing what it would take to add DCS (yes, I know it would run just fine conventionally).

So I'm thinking I'm going to have to spend $310-350 for the DCS system, then another $250-400 for my first DCS engine (whether ES44AC or not).  Now you're telling me that I can buy an MTH full PS2/3 compatible engine PLUS the control system for (?) $400 or so, and I'm thinkin' I've found my solution.  Since I'll probably always have more Lionel than MTH, I don't care if I have to use my phone or tablet to control it.

Now to go read the MTH RTR catalog and start investigating!

I just don't think there is an overlap to those in the market for a starter $350-$400 train set and those who don't have/cannot easily acquire a tablet or smart phone. For the older generations who aren't interested in smart phones running their trains, they most likely already have a layout and other means of controlling the included trains if they didn't want to use the DCS module that comes with it. 

The target audience is youth entering the hobby. Everyone in that demographic knows how to download an app and use a tablet or a smartphone. Sure kids who are already interested in trains might not mind a traditional controller. But you buy someone a set with this starter DCS included, and they soon discover the capabilities of the system such as controlling multiple trains on the same track, customizing sounds, etc. , they are a lot more likely to expand their collection and really get interested in the hobby. 

Great...  Another opportunity to keep people glued to their so-called smart devices. 

Are we controlling technology or is technology starting to control us?

Rusty

Allan Miller posted:

This hobby is about a passion for trains and railroading. All the bells-and-whistles technology in the world (and that technology is ever-changing) will not do much to create a new hobbyist. That is something that has to come from within, and it is generally not sparked by an iPad or iPhone, or other such gizmo.

Good Day Allan,

I agree 100%. A person has passion for trains on the model layout or the real rail!  Passion and interest for technology does not create passion for trains, never has never will!

Best Regards,

Frank

When they come out with a tablet or phone that has a control knob on it THEN I might have some interest in what MTH is offering, until that happens I will continue to enjoy running my trains with the hands on approach. Most families wanting a traditional Christmas train are not  gonna buy into this approach and will pick something that's all complete in the box and ready to go. Ahead of their time? maybe, but the toy train buyer isn't ready...Yet.

Jim 1939 posted:

When they come out with a tablet or phone that has a control knob on it THEN I might have some interest in what MTH is offering, until that happens I will continue to enjoy running my trains with the hands on approach. Most families wanting a traditional Christmas train are not  gonna buy into this approach and will pick something that's all complete in the box and ready to go. Ahead of their time? maybe, but the toy train buyer isn't ready...Yet.

I beg to differ. I am 33yrd old with 3 kids. It is people in my demographic that are going to be buying a Christmas set for their kids. I guaruntee you more people my age will be more inclined to buy a train set if they can control it with their existing phones/tablets. 

Swafford posted:

Allan Miller posted:

This hobby is about a passion for trains and railroading. All the bells-and-whistles technology in the world (and that technology is ever-changing) will not do much to create a new hobbyist. That is something that has to come from within, and it is generally not sparked by an iPad or iPhone, or other such gizmo.

Good Day Allan,

I agree 100%. A person has passion for trains on the model layout or the real rail!  Passion and interest for technology does not create passion for trains, never has never will!

Best Regards,

Frank

Using that logic, MTH and Lionel shouldn't be trying at all. Yes of course some people have a passion for trains no matter what, but waiting around for just those people and not advancing the hobby to get new people interested in it is not good for business. Nobody is saying you have to recite by heart the tractive effort of the 611 or memorize the number series for Conrail SD80MACs before you can get into this hobby. Some people just think it's cool so see a train run around a table, especially one they can control from their phone. 

I seem to recall that Lionel made many O and Super-O sets that included no transformer! I don't think the world ended.

metsno1fan posted:

Some people just think it's cool so see a train run around a table, especially one they can control from their phone. 

Or a transformer...

Rusty

I guess I would want to know why kids and even adults are so addicted to their phones and tablets in the first place. To me it's a simple equation of input & output. Kids (and adults) love their Snapchat, Instagram or Facebook because of the feedback you get from posting something and someone else responding through a comment or a like.  We want our phone to give us a response and preferably a positive one, whether that comes from a friend online or something connected to it that we can control. 

Someone had commented earlier that these new train control apps are going to be another reason to keep kids glued to their phones. I don't quite see it in the same perspective.  They will use their phone to control a device and receive feedback from the train which would take the concentration away from the phone and place focus on the device (train) that we are interacting with. 

This is almost identical to the phone controlled drone market. Kids & adults want to see their smart device do more than just give positive feedback and how the device can influence the world around them in physical manor. Believe it or not, even teenagers get board with social media but still want to do something else with their phone.

My brother bought his daughters a couple of cheap drones driven by an app on their iPods. He figured they would learn that their iPod can do more than just send pictures and messages  to each other.  So far it's worked out well for him.

We need to be keeping up with technology. If we stick with old style transformer or dedicated handheld remote control systems, we'll never attract a younger generation to model railroading. These new control systems allow the hobby to stay in competition with other smart device driven hobbies.

H1000

Now, how about a transformer  controlled by a cell phone?  A cell Power/House-PowerMaster?  Then one with older locos can run off the phone without modification?

If one was smart, one could put a "CTC Panel" of the layout in the phone, and pretend she/he is a DS at Omaha or Jacksonville!  Does Marklin have such a product?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Now, how about a transformer  controlled by a cell phone?  A cell Power/House-PowerMaster?  Then one with older locos can run off the phone without modification?

 

That would be pretty pointless. 

As I understand it (I don't have to care for it to comprehend it,) the sets still come with a power supply that supplies power to the trains through the track.  The Wi-Fi TIU merely acts as a transciever and control unit communicating with the handheld device and locomotive.

Just like the DCS handheld and TIU. 

You just use your phone or whatever instead a remote for that good old keeping up with technology feeling.

There is nothing special electronically in the locomotive, any MTH locomotive can be controlled with this system, unlike the Bachmann system which requires a Bluetooth equipped locomotive.

Even MRC has come out with a Wi-Fi interface that controls their Prodigy DCC systems with a handheld device.  (Thank you, but not interested...)

Rusty

BTW.., anybody remember when Lionel's Battle Train was going to be a game-changer and bring all these young'uns into model railroading???