Next Generation US diesel-electric passenger locomotive

As I understand it, Siemens met the "Made in America" requirements by offering to build the units in its California factory using American made parts including an engine made by Cummins Diesel in Indiana.

The 125 MAS of these engines, while not European or Japanese high speed, meets the RFP specs because the will be running on tracks with MAS ranging from 79 to 110 MPH.

 

I don't know how the new engines measure up to the new passenger cars size wise, but both engines and cars meet the specs developed by the government - industry committee for new passenger equipment.  

 

Tony

Up on "The D & H Bridge Line"

Hi

Naveen Rajan, I am assuming that you might work at one of the Cummins Buildings there in the Perioa area. I have been by the large complex along the river with the power plant and all the coal cars.

I see that work is being staged along some of the curent Amtrak route. I see new cross ties staged along the tracks. I am not sure weather the rail is to be upgraded or not?

Knowing how some of the current Amtrack trains make so many stops in short runs it seems that inorder to really take advantage of higher speeds that fewer stops be made.

 

Also the track and bridge network on the south-east side of Chicago is a big bottle neck and unless that area is upgraded a 125MPH train that sits for 30 to 45 minutes while other traffic clear's is not effective.

Maybe the idea is that the new route between Detroit and Chicago will be non stop? But the ridership from the little towns probable make up as much passenger traffic as the City of Detroit supplies. So the economics of the High speed service off hand looks like it could be worse than todays Amtrak.

assuming that they will use 2 engines per train inorder to avoid a turn around and 34 to 36 engines on order for two express systems.One out west and one in the mid west would maybe yield enough for 17 or 18 trains with no spares. So more likely 8 spare engines 4 west and 4 mid west says 10 actual trains max 5 west and 5 midwest.

 

So maybe with 5 trains in service for the west and 5 for the mid west the system would support a morning and afternoon train west boun and the same east bound on Both the Western system and the Mid west system with a complete"spare train" staged and ready to replace one of the East or West bound trains in each of the 2 systems.

Us that something like you think this system may work?

 

Naveen Rajan what are your thoughts?

 

Hope you are enjoying the Holiday's.

 

Just trying to think out loud a bit on what the concept for these systems to operate under and how much equipment they will need.

More on the locomotive and CGI of the locomotive. Looks like the locomotive will be very light weight yet produce more than 4,000 hp. 

http://www.railwayage.com/inde...ives.html?channel=35

I think a warbonnet would look good on it. 

Will this prime mover be robust enough?

I have a basic question. Is this project targeting the right area's of the country? I am not sure that the midwest location is the best area to be considering this project. I don't know about the western location either. I think it is to run from Vegas to LA. Maybe the Vegas Casino's should fund and run the system rather than the Tax payers?

If we want to have a High Speed rail system why not aim for LONG NON STOP ROUTES that would attract real paying customers and beable to be self supporting? Just a question!

Mt concern is that we are not thinking far enough out of the box. We are just basically will end up where we are now with a different looking engine and cars but effectively the same ole same ole.

Other areas in the world seem to beable to move people long distances at rapid rates but we don't seem to be headed in that direction. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

The loco looks similar to Siemens light rail units used in Charlotte NC and other cities. OK but nothing ground breaking. Question.....how do the prove reliability in a market they are not in stateside???

Hmmmm....I'm detecting more politics, and less chooch.....

While you can run the snot out of them on the D.O.T. test track, there's only one real way to prove reliability. 

 

Place them in service. 

 

There's a couple of intercity trains the locomotives could be tested on, maybe not at maximum speed, but fast enough to prove their train worthiness.

 

Rusty

 

 

Something to think about. Siemen has years of experience in the design, development,  and production of passenger (diesel and electric ) engines. Passenger traffic in the US is not the same as in Europe. Despite what you think,other than the ICE in Germany. Most share the same lines with freight trains. They have the same bottle neck issues when entering the major cities as we do. While US manufacturers have aimed their products for freight. The same with the infrastructure it is geared towards freight not passenger traffic. The improvements needed for passenger service will no doubt benefit freight service, but it will take time and money. It will also take alot of strong arming of CSX,UP, and NS. CSX is a prime example. Here in Florida we could actually have a good passenger service in this state but CSX continually restricts Amtrak operating on their tracks and has fought any increase of passenger trains service. So until that changes, Siemens will continue to have an advantage over EMD and GE.

Where do we need high speed rail servive ?  Why do we need it?  How fast is the High Speed we need? Should it be a private company to fund and operate it? Thanks for reading this.

Popsrr 

Thats a good question. Certainly New York to Chicago to La would not work. But in regional areas it could. La to San Fransico to Seattle . Alanta,Jacksonville ,Orlando,Tampa, to Miami. You get the idea. Since Amtrak only competitor are the regional airlines a private company might be the answer. This would force Amtrak to provide better service. This happened in theUK when Virgin Air started running trains from Victoria Station to Heathrow in competition with BR. They have since expanded and now operate to other cities. The issue is that Amtrak thru the US Government has exclusive operating rights in this country. CSX,UP,BNSF,and NS will also be road block to a private venture unless they can be shown that its in their best intrest. 

I understand the concerns some readers may have about the robustness or reliability of these new trains but if that was the most important criteria in choosing purchases, there would be no need for INNOVATION. We would all be driving the same most reliable car & using Microsoft Windows PC. I am a foreigner in this country but I believe that the Pioneer spirit in Americans is responsible (to a great extent) for the progress this country has made in the last few centuries.

So even though EMD, a division of Caterpillar, my employer did not win this project, I congratulate Nippon Sharyo, Siemens & Cummins for their victory. Also, as a design engineer I cannot think that GE or EMD achieved their current level of reliability from the day those companies started making locomotives, decades ago. I am sure readers on this forum have stories passed down through generations about some less-successful earlier models. At this time nobody knows how reliable these next generation trains would be & us worrying is not going to make them any more or less reliable. But I am sure the employees of these companies that won this project are paid well to bring out the modern, safest, most efficient & reliable locomotives & passenger cars & there will be others who will work swiftly to fix any issue that may come up, when these trains are placed in service.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Will this prime mover be robust enough?

 

That is the big question.

 

The 95-liter, 16-cylinder prime mover “is one of the most powerful high-speed diesels to be installed in a locomotive,” Cummins said.

 

A 95 liter V-16 works out to about 360 cubic inches per cylinder.  That makes the Cummins engine about half the displacement of the competition and it will turn about twice a fast to make the same horsepower.  As a Washington state tax payer I am not enthused.

 

http://www.railwayage.com/inde...-first-customer.html

I think that these new "high speed" engines and cars talked abut in this thread are only replacements for current equipment and "NOT TRUE HIGH SPEED".

 

If we thought there really was a need or could create a need for the real high speed trains then a project in concept like the interstate highway sysem might be a path to take. However it's cost would be enormus and might have ro have several partners.

Maybe the goverment builds the HIGH SPEED railway and partners build and operate the actual engines and cars. This would be like the gonverment building the interstate system and "OTHERS"using the roadway.

This also could lead to High Speed fright to move from one large dollection point to another and maybe in a east/west direction only several places would get this service. Example Spmething leaves the west coast collection point and moves only to mid america for a stop. Another leaves the west coast and goes directly to the east coast. Maybe there is a fast speed North/South with only a very very few drop offs.

 

To me the freight might have more promise to work than the passenger part initally.

What are your thoughts?

A vessel that I worked on was re-engined about 5 years ago with Cummins diesels similiar to the ones mentioned above.  This vessel is only used 6 months a year. Since then it has had 3 turbo failures and the engineers say it is a real PITA to work on. 

John that does not speak too well for the engine. Hope someone from Cummins is out doing a lessons learned program for the benefit of the futer engines.

Several have noted that these new engines are not "High Speed" in the European or Japanese sense. I even noted that in my initial response.

However, it should be remembered that the federal program funding these engines is the "High-Speed and Intercity Passenger Rail Program".  In fact, most of the money spent or committed to intercity passenger rail over the past 4 years has been directed to improvements to regular/conventional passenger service.

 

Tony

Up on "The D & H Bridge Line"

An EMD or GE prime mover would be something most shops could easily fix.  Thois is going to require new parts supply, et. al., for these engines.  Even original CAT diesels have not generally fared well as prime movers so far.

Several have noted that these new engines are not "High Speed" in the European or Japanese sense.

 

The locomotives are not high speed in the European of Japanese sense.

 

The potential problem is that the diesel engines used in them are high speed.

 

EMD, GE and ALCO diesel engines are considered medium speed engines and turn in the 800-1000 rpm range at full power.  The Cummins engine  turns 1800 rpm at full power and that makes it a "high speed" diesel prime mover.  The high speed diesel engine along with the four turbochargers an a lot of boost are probably not good things for reliability or longevity.  The diesel exhaust fluid is also an added complication and operating expense that EMD and GE have worked hard to avoid.

Ted I think these engines and cars are just replacement's for the current Amtrak equipment geing developed under a misleading Washington term. So whats new. One of the two areas selected for this new stuff really does not have developed a real ridership I think.

 

If it is to be real high speed I think the whole concept needs a better inital concept of what the real object is and do they have a ridership in place now ? I think they might get further developing high speed freight first and then build off thay for a passenger service.

As mentioned above, my experience with the Cummins high speed diesels has not been good.  Hard to beat EMD for reliability.

Very interesting Naveen, thanks for sharing! 

 

These are always interesting topics since they hark back to the same issues that have plagued passenger RR's since the demise of passenger train revenues.

 

The costs to develop new US passenger locomotives are staggering and since the market is limited it seems to have been 40+ years of adapting freight locomotive technology to passenger service. 

 

Can governmental consortiums cover the up-front costs to develop and test new locomotive designs, especially in the days of budgetary woes?

 

While not an apples-to-apples comparison, compare the years of service of the off-the-shelf Swedish meatballs used on the NEC to the various GE P series of diesels.  It would be nice to have the cost per psgr/mile over the years of service or MBF data for each locomotive.  

 

I suspect that the issue is and always will be, who is going to shoulder the massive R&D costs?

 

The latest generation of Harley-Davidsons were engineered, designed and built not in Milwaukee but in Delhi.  

 

Will the the same happen with new US diesel passenger locos, given the state of US railroad equipment being engineered and built in  places as far off as Brazil and Korea?

Not so fast. EMD is protesting the award to Siemens. 

 

Essentially two arguments are being made. The first is: "Siemens is not a ‘responsible offeror’ and its offer is not ‘responsive’ with respect to the Procurement."

 

The second is: Siemens' 4200 breaking horsepower product is not enough to sustain 125 mph while EMD's 4700 breaking horsepower product is enough to sustain 125 mph.

 

http://www.railwayage.com/inde...ward.html?channel=35

Very interesting article, but please be aware that the term "BHP" is Brake Horse Power, and NOT "breaking horsepower"!

How about a "fly off" of the models in the running, like with some military models?

this is an interesting thread

 

it seems to me that instead of a chicago to detroit concept,planning for  the high speed build might better be posed as north america to south america, and beyond- toronto to mexico city as a gross example - it becomes exponentially political but why not

 

planning on a macro level

 

will not happen in my lifetime, but would be a great boon for economic productivity

Outstanding. More butt-ugly, goony-bird looking diesels.

 

Did everybody forget everything they ever knew about styling?

Ever look at cars and buildings lately?

Yes I have. That's why I asked the question.

 

I've seen some proposed designs for a "new Penn Station". Give a child a box of Legos and he could probably outdo the so-called "professionals".

 

They seem to fall into one of two categories:

 

1) Extremely bland monoliths with nothing but right angles.

 

2) Futuristic crap that one would tire of looking at after 30 seconds.

 

 

 

Looks like EMD's protest was turned down. Seimens given the go ahead.

http://www.railwayage.com/inde...ives.html?channel=35

 

These locomotives are not inexpensive: $225 million for 32 locomotives. There is a purchase option another 225 locomotives.