O Scale Locomotive Guide: Berkshires

Very good compilation of a favorite locomotive!

Thanks a lot Ted.

A good read, thanks

Brent

Goodinformation, thanks Ted.

Art

You have neglected to mention that Max Grey imported a nice brass NKP Berkshire in the late 50s.   This was scale 2-rail

US HObbies also imported an NKP Berkshire in the 60s and 70s in brass.    I think there were more than one run, maybe 2 or 3.    This was similar the MG mentioned above but with much better lost wax castings.   this is my favorite of the brass ones and a very good runner with a very well-built mechanism.    This was only done in 2 rail also.

Weaver also imported a brass one in both 2 and 3 rail.    These came painted.   They are nice but since they were also done in 3 rail, the front pilot deck was extend and the pilot pulled forward to compensate for the sharper 3 rail curves.   This is a very nice conventional runner worth installing your favorite electronics in in 3 rail.

While the newer diecast has gotten very good, I think (opinion here) that the details are sharper and finer on the handbuilt brass models.    I think all the brass stuff is hand assembled in smaller runs.

Very impressive collection of information and photographic presentation, Ted.

Probably a great foundation for an OGR magazine piece on the subject.

Although I did not get one, when MTH made the last run of Southern Kanawha

engines, they looked very interesting. I enjoyed reading about the different Berks.

I would like even more info on Kanawha models.

Thanks for the write up.

Actually the Southern Railway never had any 2-8-4 type steam locomotives back in the days of regular steam. The model MTH offered was of the "Excursion era" locomotive the Southern used for awhile, which was a former C&O Kanawha #2716, and the Southern's Steam Shop in Birmingham, AL changed the front end to look more like a Southern Railway locomotive. The MTH version of that SR excursion locomotive looks quite nice, in my opinion.

Ted

Once again you have created a  great one stop information source. Berkshire for dummies.

Doug

One of my favorite steamers. It will be interesting to follow this thread.

Thank you, this is an excellent resource you have made.  

Sunset/3rd Rail offered B&M Berks, Berks Santa Fe bought from B&M, and SP Berks bought from B&M a few years back.  A well done great running engine.  No die cast compromises.

I talked to the K-Line rep years ago about a version they could have made for the Santa Fe that had a top mounted Elesco Feedwater heater.  He said they modified the mold and it could no longer be done.  I wish I had talked to them sooner. 

Hey Everybody

Thanks for all the comments and additional photos.  With all the long standing interest in Berkshires, the excursion locomotives running today and the recent O scale models I though this would be a popular thread.  Boy is it!

Have a Happy Thanksgiving! 

Somewhere along the line Southern obtained a Big Emma tender and used it as a canteen for the steam program.  I think it had been in work train service, hence its survival.  I don't know what happened to it after the steam program was dismantled.

George Lasley

I, who prefer 4-8-2's and Northerns, even found this an educational and informative read. Apparently, except for the war time used loco sales of the coffin feedwater heater

SP and ATSF versions, no western roads bought these, at least,  new?  The DT&I had

Lima build their 700 series, six 2-8-4's, to the AMC design.  I guess none of them

have been done, even in brass, but certainly not in three rail?

Great topic!

May I humbly point out that the first Legacy offering of PM 1225 from 2008 is missing from the list? Catalog number is 6-11146.

OUTSTANDING article Ted,

Thanks for taking all of the time to research this information and share it with us!!!

       x 3 = a 21 gun salute on this one!!!

Best,

Dave

May I humbly point out that the first Legacy offering of PM 1225 from 2008 is missing from the list? Catalog number is 6-11146.

Greg

Good catch!  It has been added to the OP.

Dave

Gee, I've never received a 21 gun salute before.  Thanks! 

PRRJIM and Marker

Thanks for sharing the information on earlier brass Berkshires.  There is very little info on the web regarding what brass models have been manufactured over the years.  With info on brass model this can really become the reference source for O scale Berks.

Bob2 also shared some information on another early O scale Berkshire model and he has graciously allowed me to re-post his photos here.  One prototype not yet mentioned are the 12 Berkshires built by Alco in 1927 for the Chicago & Northwestern.  These were the first Berks built with cast steed trailing trucks and they also served as the pattern for the five IGN/MP and the two TH&B Berks.  Lobaugh made a model of the C&NW berks circa 1940.  With the lack of a mention of a more recent brass model they may still be the best bet for a fan of the C&NW Berkshires or their derivatives.

This locomotive is stock Lobaugh.

Bob2 modified this Lobaugh model to depict an MP Berk.  His dome configuration very accurately models the Mo Pac locomotives.

Ted - That's a 1940's Lobaugh Berk?  Both Lobaugh and Bob2's rework are nice engines.  I wish I knew more about earlier brass O scale equipment.

Nice post.

Lobaugh: Rollin ran a screw machine company in south San Francisco.  When things slowed down, rather than laying off his employees, he put them to work making O Scale kits.  His springboard was the 17/64 "Pratt" Harriman 0-6-0, and all subsequent steamers had generally the same construction.

Frames were cast "red art bronze", machined, drilled, and tapped if you paid extra.  Drivers were cast iron, quartered with Woodruff keys, not unlike the real thing.  Boilers were spun brass, and quite heavy compared to today's imports.  The quality built in to these models was, in my opinion, easily comparable to the contemporary Lionel 700 series.

Sunset promised to deliver all kinds of Berkshires, including the C&O Kanawha. I cannot wait for that one and I hope there will be enough interest so that the project does not get cancelled.

MTH truly captured the beauty of the Kanawha in 2 and 3 rails with this incredible model:

This picture belongs to a current or former member of this forum. I have been looking for one of these MTH in 2 rails with no luck so far. If you have one and are willing to part with it, I will be happy to buy it from you.

The MTH is not brass but die-cast in white metal with brass parts glued on. Nevertheless, it is a glorious model.

Yves

That photo was taken by Rich Battista.  He is very much an active member of this site.

Rich's Black Diamond Railway and videos do a beautiful job of showing off the latest and greatest in O scale model trains.

To see more of Rich's MTH Kanawha look here.

http://www.toytrainsontracks.c...hotoPageKanawha.html

And to see Rich's photos of an NKP Berk by MTH look here.

http://www.toytrainsontracks.c...shire/PhotoPage.html

The Black Diamond Railway home page is here.

http://www.toytrainsontracks.com/

And if anyone needs custom machine work Rollin J. Lobaugh Inc is still very much in business, just not the model train business.  A nice article appeared in the San Francisco Business Journal a few years ago.

http://www.bizjournals.com/san...focus4.html?page=all

Nice history of the Berhshire. Thanks for contributing. 

A wonderful,interesting and well written comparison.

What you left out is how hard it is to find the Lionel 6-38077 Virginian 2-8-4!! Incorrect steam domes or not its an elusive sonofagun.

A well thought out, well written, and very informative piece.

A+.  Many thanks for the effort!!

FWIW, I would also like to see this turned into an OGRR article.....if possible.

Patrick, MJ and BP

I'm glad that you have enjoyed reading this thread.  We are fortunate to have such a variety of models available.

I have a few questions for Berkshire owners and operators.

The K-line Berkshires have an unusual motor arrangement with a small motor placed forward in the boiler rather than aft in the fire box area.  Lionel has used the old K-Line tooling for the Legacy Lima Berks.  How are they as pullers?

MTH and Lionel have both made AMC Berkshires and each has designed the tooling to allow them to change details to correctly model several of the specific versions of the AMC Berks.  I believe the MTH models use separately applied brass detail parts for the sand lines.  Do the Lionel models use separate parts for the sand lines or are they part of the boiler casting?

Ted,  am not certain if I'm remembering this correctly but I think someone wrote awhile back that Lionel redesigned the chassis in the Legacy (K-Line) Berks with a conventional rear placement of the (larger) motor.

Can someone clarify here?

Yes, the Lionel version has a large Canon motor in the rear/ firebox. It barely fits under the shell casting.

Its comparable in size to the Pittman motors that were common years ago.

It should pull whatever you put behind it until you exceed the limits of the locomotive weight and traction tires.

The motor will not be an issue.

I admire Lionel's engineers.  I put the motor in the firebox on mine, and it was not an easy task.  I suppose it would have been easier if I had just sawed the back end of the frame off and started over with fresh metal.

K-Line, in my opinion, committed sacrilege with their U-shaped boilers and motors over the cylinders.  Sawing off those skirts and replacing them with round was likewise not an easy task.  The rest of their Berk/Hudson models were very well done.

Thanks for the replies.  It is good to know that Lionel modified the K-Line Lima Berk tooling for a more conventional arrangement allowing a larger motor.  It sound like the Lionel Lima and AMC Berks should all be quite capable locomotives for heavy haul work. The MTH locomotives are certainly robustly built.  

I'm a bit late to this discussion but, I have one of those great looking K-Line B&A Berks, and it doesn't pull with a crap! I know I guy who purchased one when they came out, and immediately had it pulling VERY long trains on a "club layout". The motor quit in rather short order, so after contacting K-Line, he shipped it back for "warranty repair". 

After he got the "repaired" model back, he went right back to pulling long trains again, and sure enough the replacement motor quit. To make a long sordid story short, after quite a number of trips back and fourth to K-Line, after the 4th or 5th trip, the K-Line service people put an additional new motor, packed separately in the box with the model and a note stating that if the motors fails AGAIN, "You fix it!", as K-Line would not longer be responsible.

I have NEVER had any pulling issues with ANY of my Sunset/3rd Rail, Lionel, MTH, nor Atlas steam & diesel models, and I tend to operating longer trains, even on our home layout. As great looking as the K-Line B&A Berk is, it is a VERY poor performer, with that small motor mounted up in the forward portion of the boiler instead of the widest portion, which is the firebox. On the other hand, my NYC 4-6-4T "commuter tank engine" by K-Line is an excellent performer. 

The K-Line motor was an incredibly small cheapo motor.  It had to be small; putting it behind the cylinders was quite confining, even though the boiler was unwrapped at that point.  It should have lasted about as long as it did.

We had one eat the axle gear.  At the time one of the museum members had a gear cutting setup, and he made a new gear.  K-Line had some very good ideas, but they should have hired an O Scale locomotive builder to help out with some of these engineering fiascos.  Opinion.

100% agree! I got into a "discussion" with one of the K-Line "Engineers" at the Chicago International Hobby Show, quite some years ago, concerning the desirability of 4-chuffs per revolution on their high end "scale" steam models. His retort was, "4-chuffs wouldn't be right, because at 90 miles an hour the locomotive would sound like a Wearing Blender!". My only answer was, "What the he%% do you think a REAL steam locomotive sounds like at 90 MPH?".  He glared at me and said, "I would have no idea but, do YOU???". I responded with, "As a matter of fact, I REALLY DO!", and walked away. One of my buddies was explaining to the guy who I was and how I REALLY did know about 4-chuffs per revolution.

Some years later, I encountered the SAME GUY from K-Line, at another big show, and inquired about why they would design a steam locomotive with the motor way forward in the boiler ( the B&A Berk.), when the firebox was actually the widest part of the locomotive? Again, the idiot didn't believe me.

"4-chuffs wouldn't be right, because at 90 miles an hour the locomotive would sound like a Wearing Blender!". My only answer was, "What the he%% do you think a REAL steam locomotive sounds like at 90 MPH?".  He glared at me and said, "I would have no idea but, do YOU???". I responded with, "As a matter of fact, I REALLY DO!", and walked away. One of my buddies was explaining to the guy who I was and how I REALLY did know about 4-chuffs per revolution.

Hot Water

Oh Boy!  Looking at some of these product descriptions it is amazing that it took until well into the 21st century for some of our major manufacturers to get 4 chuffs per revolution on simple two cylinder locomotives.  Thanks for doing some uphill sledding to help get us there!  It is good to know that all the Proto 2 and 3 locomotives can be set for the proper chuff rate. 

I understand that Lionel is now using K-Line's old tooling for their Legacy K4s.  Have these also been upgraded with a larger motor in the conventional firebox location?

Boy, I would have no idea. I was surprised that Lionel redesigned the B&A Berk model, but I don't know about any other "former K-Line" models. Maybe someone else here can clear that up, especially since I always heard that the K-Line PRR K4s model was quite well done (but then I'm sure not a "PRR guy").

The P&LE A-2a is being overtaken by it's GP-7 successor.

765 is playing with a friend.

Both 1225 and 2716 are wrapped snug in their beds/respective boxes in the closet behind me.

Ron

Ted....thanks for doing these ongoing series....they sure make for an interesting and informative read!  Have you thought about submitting them to Allan???

Alan

Alan

I haven't submitted any articles to Allan although I am certainly open to doing so. 

As some others have suggested, just making a sticky for links to all of these threads on the top of the 3RS forum would be great! 

A good Berkshire history Ted and thanks for all your hard work.  Just a few thoughts to add regarding Lionel's reissued K-Line Lima A1 demonstrator.  Lionel released this model with an incorrect tender and has yet to correct the error (when I called their attention to this they basically ignored me).  The tender it comes with is what I believe K-line originally released it with years ago.  It appears to be a B&A passenger tender of sorts.  The tender Lionel uses with its NYC L-2A Mohawk would have been a closer match to what the Lima A1 actually had so why wasn't that taken into consideration?  Maybe I am being overly picky about things but when Lionel charges $1,200.00+ for a scale steam locomotive it should be accurate.  

I do have the MTH Southern 2790 and the P&LE 9401 in my collection.  Both are beautifully executed models and good  runners with excellent sound effects.  I especially like the Southern 2790 in its green and silver paint scheme even though it never existed in real life.  Thanks again and Happy New Year. 

Just a few thoughts to add regarding Lionel's reissued K-Line Lima A1 demonstrator.  Lionel released this model with an incorrect tender and has yet to correct the error (when I called their attention to this they basically ignored me).

There were variations among the tenders built for the early Lima 2-8-4s.  K-Line made tooling for one tender.  To make multiple tools for casting the various tenders would have been cost prohibitive.  Apparently Lionel feels the same way.  That is one of the disadvantages of diecast construction. 

If you really want a specific tender take a look at what Bob2 has done.  To get a model of an ex-B&M Berk as modified my the SP he started with a C&NW model, modified it and provided an SP whale back tender.  Great work Bob. 

Maybe I am being overly picky about things but when Lionel charges $1,200.00+ for a scale steam locomotive it should be accurate.

I especially like the Southern 2790 in its green and silver paint scheme even though it never existed in real life.

Wouldn't it be fun to be working in a model company marketing department trying to figure out what train buyers want! 

They do the best they can with the budgets they have to work with and their best understanding of what we would like to buy. Where there is a gap we can either decide one of the available models is close enough, modify it to our liking or wait for a manufacturer to invest more tooling money.  Fortunately we have quite a number of choices for out of the box dead on models of early Lima, Erie and several AMC Berkshires.

Having purchased the K-Line Lima Berk (for $400; probably way too much for what it is), and having a beautiful line drawing of same from David Weitzman, I am aware of the tender and trailing truck discrepancies.

I see these complaints, and have no sympathy.  Throwing rocks at a supplier is not the right approach - not purchasing the incorrect item would be a better way of going at it.  A purchase means you are at least somewhat satisfied with the bargain.

I have every intention of correcting the flaws on my Lima some day, but its small size relative to everything else in my collection gives me pause.  I am actually tempted to sell it and start from scratch in a scale more in consonance with my track.  

I will not blame K-Line.  It was my decision to purchase the thing, and to keep it when I discovered that hideous boiler belly.  K- Line, and now Lionel and MTH, are making great strides toward truly realistic models.  I am willing to bet that, now that such truly accurate models are coming for the 3-rail crowd, it will not be long before the track starts bothering folks a lot more than the curved top of a tender.

Two-railed, round boiler, motor in firebox.  Looks like a switch engine in comparison to most of my locomotives, but wonderful detail and castings are superb.

This is what the mechanism looks like after new driver tires and motor relocation

That light film of corrosion shows you how often I run trains.  My joy is making them run smoothly, and making them look good.

A great read!  Thanks for all the info and pictures! 

I do have a quick question, though: How do the new Lionel LEGACY Berkshires run on the minimum O-54 curve?  Do they look goofy?  Any issues?  I'm in the process of planning a layout, & due to space reasons 54" curves are probably as large as I can go.  It might be a tough sell to the wife to go larger....  Thanks for any input. 

- Neal

I would go with "less than ideal but tolerable".....FWIW.

I can get some video of mine running on 0-72 and 0-64 later on....if that helps.  Just let me know.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...94#38596415723620994

Try going to the above link and scroll down.  Forrest Jerome posted this video and I believe those are 0-54 curves that the 765 is going around.

Thanks!  I suppose that'll probably do, though I wish I could do at least O-60 or O-63, if not larger.  Maybe in time.  First have to get the basement cleaned out & re-done, though.  And the honeymoon out of the way.  And a new (to her) car for the wife....  It'll be awhile.  Should be able to fit an outer loop in FasTrack for around the Christmas tree in O-60, though.

are you limited by space or money/time?

FWIW, many builders wish they would have used wider curves.  All it takes is one large steam engine....or diesel nowadays....for that matter. 

My 072/064 will be getting replaced by 096/088 and 084/076 Ross Sectional Curves.....but that's all I have room for.

Ted Hikel: To answer your question (from December!)... The Hudson and Lima berk were redesigned to have their motors in the firebox, where it belongs.  1,000,000 scale railroaders can't be wrong!  Lionel made three colorful Pacifics (C&A, Crescent, and Blue Comet) which also had the motor in the firebox.  The Crescent might have been based on K-Line tooling.

The K-4 is a tough call... the firebox of Lionel's Odyssey K-4 was much too long.  The K-Line model had nice proportions, but the goofy motor arrangement.  And MTH's was an early effort with undersized driving wheels (perhaps a nod to operation on sharp curves, since hi-rail layouts were still uncommon in 1995.)

Unfortunately Lionel's reissue of the USRA light Mikado is still saddled with the small, cheap motor leaning forward in the boiler.  Lionel showed their new heavy Mikado at York.  I loved the appearance, but when I found out it had the small motor in the boiler, I decided not to order.  No way will I pay $1200 for a loco with a $5 motor!

From what I can tell by peeking under the K-Lionel K4 is that the motor placement is the same but the thing has been re-geared to run very smoothly under Legacy control. This is another Lionel steamer that can be pushed by hand to roll the drivers. First engine I remember Lionel doing that with was the CCII ESE Hudson.

If Ted wants to start a K4 thread, I will pop the shell and snap some pics.

In the immediate term, money & time, but my future layout is bounded by the concrete walls of the house on 3 sides, so space is somewhat of a concern.  O-72 would be...ambitious, but I may be able to work O-63 for the main line. 

The problem is that we'll need to have at least part of the room for useable space outside of the layout.

On second thought, a larger radius curve may be necessary to reduce the grade up to the overpass on the main line....

Neal

I am happy to hear that you have enjoyed this thread.  Thanks for contributing to it.

Are you planning to build your layout around the walls style?  That will get you the broadest curves and longest run in a given space, minimize reach in problems and allow the most space in the middle of the room for people.

Ted S.

Thanks for the info on the Lima Berk and other K-Line/Lionel steam locomotives.  They are an interesting piece of O scale business history as well interesting models in their own right.

If Ted wants to start a K4 thread, I will pop the shell and snap some pics.

Norm

Sooner or later I will be happy to take you up on that offer.  I have one O Scale Freight Car Guide left to restore and a few more new ones before that series goes into occasional update mode as newly tooled models come out.  And I am working on more Locomotive Guides.  One way or another the K4 has to figure into that, either as a thread on Pacifics, Pennsy steam or as a thread just on K4s.  I am shooting for about one new guide a month, say 10 or 12 a year.

So far the Berkshire and Mountain threads seem to have been well received.  I think the next edition of the O Scale Locomotive Guide will take on another seven axle wheel arrangement. 

I understand that threads now will get locked if their is no new post in 6 months.  Feel free to post a photo, info or a question to keep these threads growing and available as an active (and interactive) resource. 

Great reading, thanks Ted; a good education for a 3-rail newbie like me.

If I might add my $0.02, here's a link to the only two Berkshires built in Canada.

#201 & #202 were built by MLW for the Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo. 

http://www.thbrailway.ca/steam/graphics/thb201.jpg

These still have the forward mounted motor, likely because being mounted the "traditional" way would have interfered with the whistle steam smoke unit.

Having said that, I believe the motor in the Lionel may still be a bit larger than the original K Line. FWIW there have been no posts about issues with pulling power.

One forum member posted video with 12 scale passenger cars behind it and pulled them without issue. It can still be found on youtube.

I have one of these, great sound and a supersmooth runner.

Yes, I am planning on running the layout around the walls in a sort-of "C" shaped configuration. The issue comes from the turn-arounds at either end pinching off the useable space in the middle.  I was trying to only use about half to 2/3 of the room (that may be pushing it).  Probably using 3/4 of the room if I go up to O-72.  Pretty sure I could get at least a TV, the wife's love seat & chair in if I use O-63 (Atlas) - that'd be 6' wide table to handle the turn-around - not certain w/O-72.  The room's about 12' x 24', with a 6' deep & 8' wide cutout into the long wall (space I plan on using for a small loop & some yard/siding space. I'd only be about 4' out from the back wall w/my main table, but the turn-arounds would use half the length of the room.  I'm willing to sacrifice a little on the prototypical side of things, as long as the engines/rolling stock don't look incredibly goofy or have issues negotiating the turns.  When planning I try to break up my S-Curves w/at least a 5.5", if not 10" straight section. 

Thanks again for all the advice & input!

Early in this post a few commented about the MTH Southern Kanawha. The pictures of Southern Kanawha, 2716 on MTH product page don’t do justice to the detail of this engine; so I overlooked it when it was in the 2010 catalog.  However, when I saw pictures of it on MTH’s Facebook page a few years ago, it became must engine for me to have but by then in 2011 it was sold out at most hobby stores.  However, I finally got it.  I really like the sound and the passenger station announcements of this engine.  It is one of the most detailed engines I have in my collection.  Below are a video and pictures of my own engine as well as pictures of the green Southern Kanawha engine from MTH’s Facebook page.  Ken

If I might add my $0.02, here's a link to the only two Berkshires built in Canada.  #201 & #202 were built by MLW for the Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo.

Firewood

The first copy or Trains I ever owned had an article on the TH&B.  They were the largest locomotives in Canada when they were built.  MLW built them because they could use the ALCO patterns from the C&NW Berks without paying the import duties that would have been paid on locos built in the US by Lima.  They were a great example of what an ALCO built NYC Berkshire would have looked like.  One of Bob's Lobaugh models of the C&NW Berks would be the place to start for a TH&B locomotive.

The pictures of Southern Kanawha, 2716 on MTH product page don’t do justice to the detail of this engine; so I overlooked it when it was in the 2010 catalog.

Ken

I think that happens a lot.  The illustrations in both the Lionel and MTH catalogs frequently fail to do the products justice.  If they spent a little more on photography they just might be rewarded by more sales.  Thanks for sharing the photos and video of your Southern Kanawahas.

Ted, I just read your article and was greatly impressed by the level of detail and content.  It must have taken you quite a while to assemble the information prior to posting it here.  Congratulations and keep up the good work.  Looking forward to your next article.

Allegheny

I'm glad that you enjoyed it.  It is fun to put the prototype and model information together.  After the O Scale Freight Car Guide Series I have become pretty good at ferreting out what has been produced and I have discovered some locomotives models that I did not know about.  The Lionel USRA light mountains were locomotives that I had missed.  We'll be sticking with seven axle locomotives for the next installment.  Stay tuned, we cover some more B&O and C&O power in the months ahead.     

I started reading this topic about Berkshires and it dawned on me I have a book by Pacific Fast Mail titled "The Berkshire and Texas Types".  I figured owners were mostly northern or mid-western RRs, but the book shows that the old Norfolk Southern also owned the Berks.  I thought...hey maybe that would be something I wouldn't mind having, just to get away from SAL for a while.

Well, it appears the Berkshires NS owned were a breed to themselves.  The book says NS had Baldwin build 5 of the smallest 2-8-4 engines around.  They weighed in at 335,000 lbs, 25 tons less than the lightest 2-8-4 predecessor.  They also had semi-Vanderbilt tenders on 6-wheel trucks and had trailing booster engines, front-mounted pumps, and slanted cabs.

These were later sold to ASARCO in 1950, then to NdeM in the late 50s, early 60s.

In the end, it doesn't look as if any of the current models come close to the Berks NS owned

I'm pretty sure the DT&I owned some small Berks too.  They were tiny but well-proportioned, good looking machines.  Even a scale model wouldn't look out of place on sharper curves.

If the DT&I and NS were close enough to be made from the same mold, that would further increase the potential sales base.  -Ted

The NS Berks were very much the smallest of they type ever built.  Apparently they had some older bridges that presented anything heavier from being use.

The DT&I locomotives were quite a bit larger and heavier, about 22 tons on the drivers alone.

I saw NKP 759 at Steamtown a few years ago and it was an inspiring sight.  You don't really get a feel for the size of the classic Berk until you see one up close.  I recently bought the MTH model of 759 in American Railroad decoration for the 1969 Golden Spike Centennial.  A great model!

Rolland

K-Line's main reason for that motor was cost. They were looking for anything they could find to undercut the price of similar Lionel locomotives in the marketplace. By substituting a Mabuchi RS-385 motor instead of the USA-made Pittman that Lionel used, they were able to lower the retail price of their locomotive by about $100.

This is testing my memory a bit, but I believe the sand lines are cast into the boiler on the Lionel model, but the manifolds coming from the sand box were cast as a separate brass piece to give the detail in that area some depth. It was always a battle with the builder for add-on detail.

TRW

Really? At the time the Berk was first produced one could easily buy an 8000- series motor directly from Pittman in quantity for under $30.  I was getting prices like that for quantities of 20.  Difficult to see how they could save $100 by replacing a $30 motor with one for three bucks.

But that cannot be the reason for mounting the motor in the cylinder block and making a U-shaped boiler.  That has to be chalked up to bone-headed design team efforts.

Speaking of Berkshires, I just this week married a Lobaugh Berkshire to a 3- rail Williams mechanism.  The result is a very attractive locomotive.  I shall try for decent photos this evening.

Originally Posted by Ted Hikel:

Ted,

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that caught the irony in Allegheny48's post.

I can't think of a better post to illustrate the dichotomies that exist in the hobby. I completely understand the guys that want things as accurate as scale modeling allows. And I completely appreciate the guys that buy what appeals to them, regardless if something is a perfect scale model or not.

But there are problems when both viewpoints are expressed by the same individual (and Allegheny48 is hardly unique in this regard.) Exactly what message are you trying to send to the managers making the decisions at today's manufacturers?

TRW

The delta between the cost of the motors is about $25, give or take a buck or two. Typically, in consumer products companies where the vast portion of their sales is via third-party retailers, that equates to a $100 retail price difference.

As for the forward mounting, and this is just a guess on my part, but it might have had to do with using an existing Lionel motherboard for the locomotive electronics. It's possible it wouldn't have fit if located above the front drivers.

TRW

The Lionel Blue Comet and Chicago & Alton locos are derived from the tooling based on the USRA Heavy Pacific.

The Southern Crescent is definitely NOT based on any K-Line tooling, but was new from the ground up. It's a great piece.

Of course, we're talking about Pacifics now, and Ted hasn't done that compilation yet!

TRW

Of course, we're talking about Pacifics now, and Ted hasn't done that compilation yet!

Well, I haven't posted anything on Pacifics yet.  But you just made a valuable contribution to a future thread.

Thanks for sharing your insider knowledge on this and so many other O Scale Guide threads.

My first real conversion from 2-rail to 3-rail:

Ken you are so correct about how the original MTH presentation of the 2716 (20-3188-1) was depicted.  When it was first cataloged it caught my eye until I realized how not to prototypical it was.  It was cataloged in the subsequent catalog issue with revised graphic but still not prototypical.  

I rode the May 29, 1982 excursion out of Charlotte that 2716 pulled.  The next day I took my dad to the station to see her when 2716 pulled the second excursion that week end.  Took pictures of dad standing at the pilot, this was just a few years before he pasted.  Bottom line have been up close I knew what 2716 looked like and MTH graphic depiction was not like it.

Well I was at the local toy train shop the day his order of the 20-3188-1 arrived.  We unpacked one.  It was not like the graphic depictions but pretty much spot on.  Bought it instantly.  It depicts the Claytor bother's Southern steam excursion 2716 Kanawha.

Ron

Great thread with lots of useful info in one place! I'm considering a Legacy Berkshire and was wondering if anyone had any actual photos of either 6-11452 C&O or 6-11453 Erie. I have searched for a while and have not seen either of these. I assume they look similar to their TMCC predecessors but would like to know for sure. I have seen images of the PE, NKP and PM versions.

Randy:  Try searching for videos on YouTube.  I've seen the C&O that you're looking for...but don't recall having seen anyone post the Erie....but that doesn't mean it's not out there.

Thanks! I'll try running through some more YouTube videos and see if I can track them down. The only C&O Berkshires I have been able to find so far are the ones from 2009 and the older TMCC one. I'm hoping the newest version is identical to these two minus the yellow window frames and 'C&O' on the tender and of course road number.

Is the NKP the only modern one that has 'whitewalls?' 

Ha! I'm not too fond of the whitewall treatment so I was trying to avoid it.  At this point for me, aesthetics still plays a big part. The Lionel catalog images aren't the best reference material so I want to see actual photos and video first if I can.

Re: Whitewalls-

It is truly trivial to get rid of white rims on model wheels.  It is not nearly as easy to add them, although it is not difficult.  Surely you guys would not nix a purchase because of white walls, or the color of window frames?

I was fine with the yellow window frames but just pointed out that the new one probably doesn't have them. I don't really care for the pinstripe either but that looks unavoidable except for the PE. Maybe I will like it better when I see it. I know that details like these are trivial but I have my preferences.

Randy, I'm not an expert on the C&O.  But most of the photos I've seen suggest their Berks a.k.a. "Kanawhas" had a large sand dome AHEAD of the steam dome, as on a postwar 2026.

[Aside: I'm convinced that the C&O Kanawha, with its large sand dome and air aftercooler on the pilot deck inspired retooling of the venerable 1666 into the "2026" circa 1948.  If you look past its O27 size, in many ways the 2026 captures the style of real Berkshires better than Lionel's 2-8-4's did!]

Fast-forwarding to 21st Century scale models, MTH's version has the authentic C&O dome arrangement.  Lionel's C&O Berk, although handsome, appears to be based on the NKP and Pere Marquette common design with a large sand dome centered near the middle of the boiler.  These are pricey locos, so if you're looking for the most accurate model, you might want to hold out for a MTH version.  If you don't care about pinpoint accuracy, they're all mechanically sound, fully-featured smooth runners and powerful pullers.

Let me close by saying that I love Berkshires!  Even more so than Hudsons, they are the "big, black steam locomotives" in my childhood storybooks brought to life.  That squat, chunky boiler set over medium sized driving wheels, big square cab and rugged modern appointments never cease to capture my imagination.  The fact that they were used all the way through the transition era and continue to operate in modern excursion service mean that they're at home on any layout!  -Ted

Question...i have the MTH 2727 and noticed the tank is longer than a NKP berk actually a full side panel longer. Im thinking they took the Allegheny tank and put a 3 axel truck in the place of the four.....it never looked right to me.....then i thought they used what they had on hand....they wouldnt would they ????.......opinions . i cant find any photos of the big tank with C&O Kanawha...conrail john

Not an expert.  The typical Kanawha has a longer tender than NKP.  I believe it is a larger locomotive, too, but not sure.  Only real difference between the really big Berks is the dome placement and pilot - maybe headlight and bell.  Opinion, from an SP modeler.

To John Penca:

I went online and saw pictures of the actual C&O 2727 on display in St. Louis.  A view showing the back of the tender lists the coal capacity at 30 tons and water capacity at 21,000 gallons.  NKP and PM Berk tenders held 22 tons and 22,000 gallons so yes the tender would have to be larger to hold the extra 8 tons of coal.  So, it appears that MTH is correct.  The Alleghenies tenders held 25 tons and 25,000 gallons as per Al Staufer's C&O Power.  Hope this helps. 

Hey everybody

There seems to be a little confusion about the prototypes upon which some of our accurate O scale berk models are based.  Let's take a look back at page one.

Regarding the Lionel C&O (ex-PM) Berks:

After the PM was folded into the C&O in 1947 the first fifteen PM Berks were relettered for the C&O and renumbered 2685-2699. Lionel has offered models of the PM Berks in C&O livery. They are distinguished from the 2-8-4s purchased by the C&O by their PM style boiler tube pilots, center mounted head lights and forward steam domes.  They have been offered with two different styles of tender lettering.

And the MTH C&O Kanawahas:

MTH is the only maker of a correct diecast C&O 2-8-4 Kanawha in O scale. While identical to other AMC 2-8-4s in overall dimensions the C&O locomotives have the sand dome in front of the steam dome, a foot board pilot, shielded air compressors mounted on the pilot deck, a low mounted headlight, oval number plate centered on the smoke box door and a larger tender. MTH tooled up to capture all those details. First offered in 2005 the MTH Kanawha is a must have for fans of C&O steam.

The Lionel and MTH C&O 2-8-4s are accurate models of different prototypes. If you are modeling after 1947 get at least one of each.  

Excellent reply/clarification, Ted. 

Well I commited the worse act yet. I've got at least six or ten engines waiting for PS installs. I got many more RTR just came in. I'm going into debt further and I want to cut back a bit. So I buy and order even more.

 Along comes the '99 MTH release of the #765 NP Berk in 2 rail!

I let it go! 1 bid for 350. Yuck. Congrats to who ever scored that one.

MTH's latest Berk release is not even in 2 rail.

Well to go further off the track....

I bought this three rail version now on an impulse buy.

SOU 2716, 20-3188-1 2005 Volume II

Looks like I'll have to build that three rail loop soon!

I have several photos of the C&O 2756 Berkshire on display in a Newport News, Va. park.  There was a good fence around it. Is the engine still there ??