UPDATE: WE ARE LIVE !!! - Office Lobby Shelf Layout

Hi Neal:

I have a shelf layout, but your photos say "image not found".  I will check back later.

Gary

I am embarking on an office shelf layout as well. 

Good luck and pictures still not showing up.

I think I got the pictures fixed ok.  Sorry about that.

Progress has begun on re-doing the lobby in preparation for the layout.  I have reviewed multiple topics on these forums concerning shelf layouts, and was wondering if anyone had any new preferences or thoughts for MDF vs. Plywood.  From what I've read there can be more distortion over time w/plywood, but better screw security over MDF.  This would be in an air conditioned & heated lobby; moisture & humidity haven't been major issues in the past.  Comments would, as always, be appreciated. 

I'm trading services with a client and we were able to get the wallpaper down a couple weeks ago.  A minor roof vent leak we discovered has been fixed.  Today we've started mudding & will repair a patch of drywall that we partially removed with the 40 year-old wallpaper. 

It'll be at least 2 coats of mud, plus touch-up, before we can paint. Going to use a light grey ("Gravity")_ for the walls and a dark grey ("Crucible") to go over the dark brown trim (crown molding, door, windows).  The grey should make for a nice autumn/winter sky backdrop.  While trains will be running year-round there will definitely be a special focus on Halloween (have MTH train on order) & Christmas (should have full scale PE train as well as CP Christmas train for this year).  

I should have about a foot between the ceiling and top of the board for scenery and plan on using foam board and several MTH buildings with Christmas lights to scenic a small passenger station area, as well as residential, and commercial areas in the corners of the layout. 

That's all for now.  Hopefully these pictures load ok - they look fine on both my computer & cell phone.  Will post again when there's progress. 

The room is looking really good!  I used MDF for my Ceiling Central RR, and it has worked out okay.  I agree on the statement that it has less chance of warping, but doesn't take screws as well as plywood.  Since mine is in a basement family room, I used precut and finished shelving.  A foot clearance should work nicely.  I only have 7 inches because of the low ceiling and it makes it harder to see what I'm doing, and leaves less room for scenery, which I only have made a minimal effort to date.

Thanks to all for the replies! 

John - I would definitely do that at home (if I ever get around to that layout...)  but I'm not sure if I'll do too much scenicing re: background, as it is still an office lobby.  I'm hoping the grey paint serves as a somewhat effective October-December Midwestern sky.  Not sure if I'll paint the shelf itself white or dk. grey yet.  I may eventually ballast the inside edge of the track, though at over 6.5' high most low things won't be visible.  I plan to do some small hills & elevations of foam as sands for buildings & scenery given the time.  Probably several, spanning multiple seasons - one in snow, one green & lush, & for autumn.  Would be good use of the corners of the 4'x8' boards at the end, which I'll be preserving for structural integrity. 

Would love to be able to get the paint up by the end of the week. I'll keep y'all posted!

- Neal

Doug - Very nice!  Thank you!  Have you noticed any issues w/the wood warping, etc.?  I'm probably leaning that route vs. MDF right now. 

Also, the drywall is patched & 1st coat of mud complete.  Just have to find a time to do 2nd coat & sand, then painting can begin.  Won't get done this weekend, though, with my stepson's graduation and holiday.

No problem at all with any warping, the Baltic Birch plywood is extremely stable, after cutting and some fine sanding the polyurethane gives it a furniture grade finish. If the price has risen like that common plywood be prepared for sticker shock, this was done some years back before most building materials went nuts.

I will make one very strong recommendation, based on a lesson learned with this project. Before cutting and doing your sub-assembly for final installation not only do you need your dimensions to be accurate but also check your dimensions from opposite corners. This is a step I didn't think about but learned when I started installation. The "cookie-cutter construction"  of homes tends to leave rooms that don't have square corners. Was a real pain going up-n-down that step ladder to make minor adjustments so everything fit properly.

+1 on Birch plywood.  I have pieces (circular and straight) for elevated track on seasonal layouts that get stored in the garage.  No warping over several years of crappy summer storage in mid-Atlantic heat and humidity.  Cannot say the same for softwood ply.  I would not touch MDF as it needs support on all edges to retain its shape over time.

I concur with leaving the outside corners on for stiffening.

To support a long bridge, use angle or square tubing under the bridges.  I find that aluminum angle with 1/8" walls is stiff for supporting bridges.  You might consider aluminum U-channel of a width that matches the underside of the bridges - it will be very stiff even over long spans.  Check out onlinemetals.com for available shapes.

Another vote for Birch plywood...

BTW, fastening the wall brackets firmly is paramount.  Fastening the sub roadbed (birch ply) to the wall brackets is next most important. 

However, fastening the track to the roadbed is, IMHO, a matter of keeping the track from shifting side-to-side.....because gravity does a pretty good job of keeping things 'down'.  IOW, don't fret too much about a lot of thread power in keeping the track in place.

Now then, I would strongly suggest the addition of a safety wire/railing on the outside of the shelf to retain locos and cars that would like to be Tootle....off the rails, picking daisies.  If there's a chance a client or co-worker could find themselves under attack from falling trains, your insurance company would probably appreciate this addition.  It need not be celebrated.  That is to say a run of wire about a half inch above rail height should be adequate and not obstructing the view of the trains that much.  On the commercial installations I've done, I found that the eye lag screws...

...used mainly in the hanging of suspended ceiling rails/panels are a very handy, inexpensive, quick way of providing support for a safety wire....for which I use a very thin steel cable, such as included in picture hanging kits but certainly available in bulk, cut-to-length at larger hardware, home improvement stores.

Other than that....have fun. 

Oh yes, another lesson from the School of Hard Knocks....keep your train controls out of reach of curious customers.  There's 'hidden', and there's 'locked'.  One client found that 'hidden' doesn't mean much to determined Easter egg hunters and masters of playscapes....or bigger kids who never were smacked for inappropriate curiosity!

FWIW, of course...

KD

Thank you all for the advice!  I will definitely look for birch plywood & try to avoid soft.  KD, I do like the safety wire idea - more subtle than a couple inches of Lexan screwed to the edge.  Surprised only 1/2" is enough, but will do!

I think I'm leaning towards painting the wood that dark grey to match the rest of the trim. Any suggestions for wall-mounted supports?  I was thinking I might craft those out of plywood, too, especially if I can't find prefab wood ones and for areas where a longer support is needed. 

The main walls of the lobby have been mudded, sanded, primed, and painted!

Hoping to get trim pieces, sills, and door done soon.  After that I can work on the shelving! 

Thanks for your interest and input; I'll keep you posted!

- Neal

The room is looking great Neal!!  While I normally prefer stained wood for the natural beauty, I think the paint will help blend in so the train will stand out more.

Started painting the dark trim last weekend.  After that the painter just needs touch-ups & to do the bathrooms, then we can get to building the shelf! 

Neal, I used dimensional birch for the support brackets. The vertical pieces are 1x2 with the horizontal pieces being 1x3 or 1x4 depending on how long they need to be for proper support. They are assembled using screws and dowels as well as a really good quality carpenters glue.They are all attached to wall studs except for the ones in front of the ceiling height closet doors which are attached to the ceiling joists.

I do not trust dry wall hangars for anything that will possibly have to support the weight of an articulted steam engine or possibly some die cast hoppers, etc.

Doug - Thanks!  I will definitely consider that for the supports if I go with the wood look.  I agree w/respect to drywall hangers.  Even if I did use metal brackets everything would be screwed into the studs.  

It's been a busy summer & I apologize for the lack of an update.  The lobby is basically done (save the door) and my father & I will get to work on the layout in the coming weeks (once they get back from vacation).  In the meantime I couldn't help but toy with the layout & added a super-long siding.  This would allow me to park a train while running another.  I believe I've got 4.5" center rail to center rail at minimum.  It would require 1 foot shelving on the front side of the layout vs. 8", though.  A neat idea, or should I leave well-enough alone?

I think the siding is a good idea. You have to get a 1' piece of cardboard or something and place it up on wall and decide if you think that it extends outward too much. being able to alternate trains will save on maintenance and wear and provide an option to avoid boredom. heck, you could even time them to alternate.

I would make the route of the active train on the room side for a single.

Here's a thought that makes folks shudder for some reason. In a thread discussion of a shelf layout upside down supports were proposed. Many went ballistic thinking it would fall. The member that proposed the idea, then, provided photos of his work.

The bracket wall leg was virtually invisible above the shelf because of the viewing angle. Doing it this way, he was able to install crown molding under the shelf for a very nice finished look.

But remember now your running train will be on the inside and harder to see unless you make the outer loop the siding. To me if your going to do a siding the whole length,  why don't just do two loops and put one about 4" higher ( the one closest to the wall ) and then you could run two different trains at one time. 

Fridge56Vet posted:

Thank you all for the advice!  I will definitely look for birch plywood & try to avoid soft.  KD, I do like the safety wire idea - more subtle than a couple inches of Lexan screwed to the edge. Surprised only 1/2" is enough, but will do!

 

 

- Neal

 

From your 6/11/18 post - here is a sagulator  to calculate the load bearing capacity of a shelf. They only offer fir for a material choice, but, birch is stronger and has more plys and better glue.

When I did mine I used 1" x 12" x 8' Boards. Still had to add at corner for curves but it worked well and I used O54 track.  

Here are some photographs of my shelves.  They are in a basement family room, where the ceiling is split with the bulkhead for the load bearing I beam and ducts.  The trouble is, there are jogs on two adjacent walls.  With 12" wide shelves, I can run 2 separate loops, with 2 trains running.  I am fine with my engines that need only 042 and 40-foot boxcars, but I run in trouble with my 60-foot passenger cars.  The overhang, just barely clips cars going the other way on the jogs.  042 inside loop, and 054 outside loop.  I have shelf brackets underneath, screwed into studs on the 2 paneled walls, brackets from above on the bulkhead, and anchors in the joists coupled to all-thread on the brick wall.  I never dressed it all up because no one really sees it but me and my wife.

Moonman posted:

I think the siding is a good idea. You have to get a 1' piece of cardboard or something and place it up on wall and decide if you think that it extends outward too much. being able to alternate trains will save on maintenance and wear and provide an option to avoid boredom. heck, you could even time them to alternate.

I would make the route of the active train on the room side for a single.

Here's a thought that makes folks shudder for some reason. In a thread discussion of a shelf layout upside down supports were proposed. Many went ballistic thinking it would fall. The member that proposed the idea, then, provided photos of his work.

The bracket wall leg was virtually invisible above the shelf because of the viewing angle. Doing it this way, he was able to install crown molding under the shelf for a very nice finished look.

That's a pretty neat link, Carl!!!

Here is mine before I moved

Here's another alternative I may consider, though only good for shorter trains (only 50" of straight siding).  I'm worried that a double track will be just overkill for an office lobby, though this could be a compromise plan. 

The "bridge" over the front desk space has been purchased & is sg. track so I'm locked into that.  I'm thinking about just mounting the whole thing to a sg. 8' board & foregoing the pylons (would have to re-mount electronics for Xmas lights). to maintain structural rigidity.  I'm a fan of late steam & scale passenger cars, so weight is very much a factor for me. 

A big thanks to all who have posted in reply of late.  Summer's been a bit crazy at the clinic but hoping to start actual layout construction in a couple of weeks.  I will keep you posted!

- Neal

Well, if I'm gonna go with a 12" deep board on the front, I may as well have some small sidings....

Neal   

i used 3/4" plywood in 1992 when i installed my twin shelf operation at our mountain cottage. At the time a friend in the cabinet business was having difficulty with MDF and he didn't like its extra weight. Anyway, the plywood shelves were located in the Domestic CEO's  14x32 kitchen/ breakfast room and she insisted that it be stained to closely match the cabinets. Our deal was that I got the wall space in exchange for getting my RR off her Den carpet.  Sadly old age intervened so I removed the operation in 2008 in anticipation selling and relocating to our Greensboro Condo and source of better medical facilities. 

Airborne ladder railroading , nothing like it.

Hey Dewey those are the same shelf brackets i used on my old shelf layout. Lowe's sold them to me for like .80 ea as a contractors bundle. They were very sturdy once you got them tight up against the wall.

Dewey Trogdon posted:

Neal   

 

Airborne ladder railroading , nothing like it.

 

 

Hey Dewey, hope all is well.  Your NCDOT F59PHI, is it the City of Salisbury or City of Asheville?

Ron

Fridge56Vet posted:

Well, if I'm gonna go with a 12" deep board on the front, I may as well have some small sidings....

Put your siding closest to the wall so you don't hide the train that is running. 

Salisbury Ron. I'm still kicking but not very mobile or flexible!

I already have the O80 loop of ScaleTrax, so I'm a bit locked in there.  Wish they had O80 switches; I'd just have a couple spurs into the corners.  I prefer (& have) scale passenger cars & articulated steam so I want to take advantage of the larger curves.  May just stick w/my original loop....

Dewey - I've seen your pics before & I do like those supports - I've been considering something similar.  I can see the screw holes at the bottom, but how did you anchor the rest?  I presume they're set into studs?  Thx.

- Neal

Neil- If you build the siding, make sure the spurs are long enough to fit what you intend to put up there (spare loco's, etc). Otherwise they will be a waste. Put it to the wall side so that you don't block the view of the running train.

Hey Mark- this one looks vaguely familiar.....

banjoflyer posted:

For better grip in MDF make sure you use "coarse" thread drywall screws. It really makes a difference. There are many brands to choose from.

 

Also avoid "overdriving" the screws as that can lead to stripping out the screw hole. Essentially the screw becomes a drill bit and reams out the threads it just cut in the MDF.

Mark

I would recommend SPAX star drive screws. I have used them for quite some time. Get 'em at the Depot.

Dick

RSJB18 posted:

Neil- If you build the siding, make sure the spurs are long enough to fit what you intend to put up there (spare loco's, etc). Otherwise they will be a waste. Put it to the wall side so that you don't block the view of the running train.

Hey Mark- this one looks vaguely familiar.....

Bob, yes I do see what you mean!

Fridge56Vet posted:

I already have the O80 loop of ScaleTrax, so I'm a bit locked in there. Wish they had O80 switches; I'd just have a couple spurs into the corners.  I prefer (& have) scale passenger cars & articulated steam so I want to take advantage of the larger curves.  May just stick w/my original loop....

- Neal

A ScaleTrax #4 can be used to make a siding off of the curve, then, with a cut ScaleTrax O80 curve to bring the mainline back to parallel you could make a nice smooth move to long siding that only requires about 8" in width.

Neal-"Fridge",etc

RE: Your question on attaching wooden supports to studs on shelf RR-showing bottom shelf of two:

The store-bought (Lowe's-1992) decorative wooden supports had a recessed metal bracket or hanger on the back near the top for hooking over a screw head. The bracket had a round hole to receive the screwhead with a slot above to slide down on the bracket ( the wood support was recessed enough to allow the screwhead to slide up into the bracket slot)  First, I replaced the short screws holding the bracket to the support with longer ones. Then I ran a 3" screw into the stud leaving only enough of the screw head out to clear the drywall surface to receive the support w/ bracket, tapped down in the bracket slot for a very snug fit. Then I installed the bottom 3" screw into the stud through 2 pre-drilled holes. One shallow hole for the screw head diameter to receive a covering plug and one for the stud screw shank diameter. Hopefully with your magnifying glass the old crude, faded sketch below will show some of the detail:

My track was all Gargraves flex due to the non-standard curves. For example O-156 on the track nearest the wall at one end of the room. I had to bring the raised elevation of the lower shelf( 7'-6" above floor) wall track down to cabinet shelf level to enable tunneling through the Domestic CEO's pantry which had only an 8' ceiling whereas the room ceiling was 20' at the ridge. 

Photo below shows Clinchfield Challenger with 30 hopper consist on high track of top shelf above kitchen sink. Photos were low quality due to point and shoot camera and reflection from plexiglas safety fence and skylight. 

I think I've tentatively decided on version 4A below.  Will try to order more ScaleTrax & Flexxbed this week.  Unfortunatley, my grandmother is starting to decline & was moved last week, so dad & I may not be able to synch our schedules to get this done by Halloween.  Will keep you posted, though. 

Dewey:  I've seen similar things at Lowe's/Home Depot, but they may not be wide enough for the corners.  Thinking about maybe using some solid metal (~1/8: thick) L-brackets that I came across there to mount into studs & bolt shelf above.  Could paint to match wall, shelf. 

As always, all thoughts & suggestions are greatly appreciated. 

Looks like a plan.

 I’m sorry your grandmother is declining.  I’ll pray for her and your family!

Thanks, Mark.  BTW - I enjoy monitoring your progress on the Blackwater Canyon Line.  Good luck on the expansion!

Fridge56Vet posted:

Thanks, Mark.  BTW - I enjoy monitoring your progress on the Blackwater Canyon Line.  Good luck on the expansion!

You’re welcome!  I’m glad you enjoy the Blackwater Canyon Line.  I hope to have more action in the near future!

Began measuring & cutting the 8x4s for the ends of the layout today!  Discovered that the room is, of course, not perfectly square as we'll have up to 1/2" gap depending on the corner.   We determined that we wanted the center rail of the office side (vs. front door side) to be a good 3.5" from the wall, which would allow clearance of the girder bridge past the trim of the Dutch door. 

We also calculated for 3.5" center rail to end wall at the apex of the curves.  We then drew an arc with a radius consistent with an additional 3.5" from center rail (7" from wall) along the inside of the curve.  There will be about 4" straight track entering that 8x4 plywood piece before the curve & we measured accordingly. 

As I do not have the #4 turnouts yet I was unsure exactly how much shelf I wanted to leave on the front door side.  I kept it simple & just finished the arc 180 degrees, knowing I can trim more precisely once I get the remaining pieces in stock.  At about $55/sheet I'd rather be safe than sorry - can always cut more later. 

I'm also happy to report that it seems I'll have plenty of structural rigidity in the open corners, at least based on a quick wiggle test.  I'm pretty sure I'll use thick metal brackets mounted vertically above the shelf.  Not sure I have the cojones to mount the plywood to the bottom of the brackets, though.  Will probably top mount & anchor w/screw & washer or bolt & washer. 

Also, I decided to not bother with the spurs after seeing the plywood sheet tentatively placed up high.  There's no way to easily access back there & you can't really see anything anyhow.  I'll keep the siding but will otherwise stick with my original plan of placing lighted buildings on top of 1" or so foam sheeting & decorating for the season.  I've already got the north pole station on order, which will probably go in the lower right corner.

Thanks again to all who follow my progress and as always, any comments or suggestions are appreciated.

- Neal

Neal,  Looks like you are planning very well!

Finally getting back on track (I know, bad pun) with respect to the layout.  We got Grandma moved into the assisted living facility in Septmeber and now I've got all the track pieces I'll need.  I have tentatively tacked them to the layout with 1" brads to make the final cut-downs on the 4'x8' end pieces.  Then we can route an edge onto the boards, prime, paint, and mount. 

I managed to find an assortment of brackets at Lowe's that should do the trick.  They're about 1/4" thick steel with 6", 8", and 10" arms with several pre-drilled screw/bolt holes, respectively. 

I believe this should provide enough stability, even in the corners, especially if all holes are utilized.  I plan on using 1" long #12 screws to come up from under the horizontal arm of the bracket into the plywood for the hole(s) away from the wall, and using a bolt up through with a lock washer & hex nut on top for the hole closest to the wall.  I'll use 3" #12 screws through the vertical arm of the bracket to anchor into the studs.  If I need additional support between the studs I could always use extra-heavy duty wall anchors and additional brackets. 

If anyone sees any red flags with this, please let me know BEFORE I start drilling in the coming weeks.     Thanks again!

- Neal

All that should work great, Neal!

Fridge56Vet posted:

Finally getting back on track (I know, bad pun) with respect to the layout.  We got Grandma moved into the assisted living facility in Septmeber and now I've got all the track pieces I'll need.  I have tentatively tacked them to the layout with 1" brads to make the final cut-downs on the 4'x8' end pieces.  Then we can route an edge onto the boards, prime, paint, and mount. 

I managed to find an assortment of brackets at Lowe's that should do the trick.  They're about 1/4" thick steel with 6", 8", and 10" arms with several pre-drilled screw/bolt holes, respectively. 

I believe this should provide enough stability, even in the corners, especially if all holes are utilized.  I plan on using 1" long #12 screws to come up from under the horizontal arm of the bracket into the plywood for the hole(s) away from the wall, and using a bolt up through with a lock washer & hex nut on top for the hole closest to the wall.  I'll use 3" #12 screws through the vertical arm of the bracket to anchor into the studs.  If I need additional support between the studs I could always use extra-heavy duty wall anchors and additional brackets. 

If anyone sees any red flags with this, please let me know BEFORE I start drilling in the coming weeks.     Thanks again!

- Neal

 

Those brackets won't support a lot of weight - in this application, I think they will be prone to bending unless you use a lot of them - like about 6" apart.  IMO, stamped shelf brackets, while not particularly attractive, would be less likely to bend.  Or, make some wooden supports. 

Here is what I used on 12" shelves.

Here is what I used on 15" shelves.

Neal:  That should work well.  I love shelf layouts.  Here are some additional ideas to consider....

These are 6 X 6 brackets from Lowes.  VERY heavy duty.  You can see the small brackets that add additional support.  On each 10 x 8 board, I used two large brackets and one or two smaller brackets.  Use as few screws as you can.  I only put two apiece in each bracket.  It's been up there four years and not a budge.  Also, If you can dowel them into each other, that makes the whole shelf a LOT stronger.  None, of the many boards, are glued.  That also means it will be simple to take it down, if such an abhorrence should occur!!

By the way, this is a 12 X 12 board, because I wanted a long spur to go into a small yard at the back of the layout.  It's the only one of that size.  You can see the roadbed that cuts down the noise and vibration.  Also, it sounds really cool hearing those trains just rolling along over those tracks, roadbed, and boards.

Think about backdrops.  Also, lighting.  These rope lights can't be seen from below, give a pleasing striated effect on the backdrops, and are simply plugged into a regular 110V outlet.

I see you are laying your track on the shelves before you put them up.  IMO, that's the way to go.  All spurs, and yards should be pre-wired and tested, especially any switches and controllers.  Saves you a lot of grief.

I hung the doweled boards from above.   Each board was stained, sealed, and sanded multiple times.  Regardless of color or arrangement, it should look like part of the wall or furniture, from below.  There are no brackets, wires, or accessories, visible from below.  The height of your shelves will hide all your wiring, lighting, and other things you add.

It looks like you will have space, in the corners, to add some structures.

I consider this borrowed tool, essential to the overall strength of my shelf layout.  I used 1/4 inch dowels, with 3/4 inch pine shelves.

Here is one example of the overall effect of all that work...

I hope some of these pics will give you some ideas that will help you complete your project.  Feel free to comment or ask questions.  Don't forget to take lots of pics, and keep us posted on the forum.

Jerry

Neal, Jerry did the same as I did, but his looks much neater because I was concerned about not having metal underneath the boards.  His boards look better than mine too.  I wasn't as concerned because mine is in a rather tacky room to begin with.  

I plan to do like Jerry suggested in putting in a backdrop and that rope lighting would make a big improvement also. 

Too many projects, too little time and money.  Actually, this is a pretty low cost project.  

Jerry :  Thank you very much for sharing.  Yours was one of the layouts I'd found in an older thread when I was just starting to kick around this idea.  Those look like the brackets I've bought - I got not only 6x6 but also 8x8 & 10x10 to use in the corners.  planning on using the longest length possible mounted into each stud.  Not sure I have the stones to under-mount the shelf to the brackets, though it's tempting for aesthetic reasons.  I'm trying to avoid having much underneath the shelf.  What kind of screws did you use?  Everything shelf-wise is going to be painted the dark grey seen earlier in the thread. 

Using FlexxBed under the track to help with noise.  I chose ScaleTrax for the solid rail to help with this too.  The track pictured is only there temporarily for measurements before the final cut.  I'll jigsaw the final edge, then use the one 4x8 sheet as a stencil for the other.  I'll definitely toke your advise & get the worst of the track laying & wiring done before mounting the shelves. 

Also, I think I'll just use molding on the inner edge rather than trying to use the router.  That should mask small variations in curve from the jigsaw.  Also an excuse to use the nail gun I got for Christmas last year.  (Would be good practice for the crown molding at home that I promised the wife....)  Could then fill any gaps, sand, & paint.  Assuming I can get the molding to bend to a 6.5' diameter, at least.  If I do mount the shelving underneath the brackets I could also use some to mask the gap between the wall & shelf. 

Well, I should probably get to bed. Thanks again for all the advice, photos, etc.  I'll keep you guys posted.

- Neal

Neal:  Since I used 3/4 inch boards, I bought the thickest 1/2 inch screws I could find that fit the 6 inch brackets.  The smaller brackets (4 inch) come in their own plastic bag and have the proper screws to fit. 

Mine is 35 feet on either side, plus another 15 feet across, making it 100 feet of track, times two.  That's a lot of board weight to support, and that's why I doweled everything.  If you pull down on it, it will bend.  That's a good thing.  I also have four engines and nearly 100 cars up there.  They really don't weigh that much, and the boards never bend with their passing.  If I ever find a weakness, I can pull down the backdrop and add another bracket.  I hung the backdrop with velcro for two reasons:  First, you can't nail it, and glue is out of the question because it would ruin the surface of the beam boxes.  Second, in case I need to add a bracket, it's easy to get access to the wood.

I thought about adding molding for the outer edge.  The inner can't be seen due to the height of the shelves and the backdrop.  I decided against it.  First, it would be VERY tough to bend it through the corners.  Second, any molding would have as many seams as it would cover.  I like the look of the natural wood, and the shelves were stained and sealed to match the boxed beams they're attached to.  Finally, when the painting is done, shoot the artist.  Constant tinkering with the shelves would probably ruin them, in my case. 

Good luck and keep us posted.

Jerry

Jerry:   Thanks.  How tight are your corner curves?  Mine will be O80, and I have a thing for larger articulated locomotives.  Do you still think I'll be ok even with 10" brackets, then?  Planning on having one in each stud, which should be 16" on center.  I've never doweled anything before but will look into that.  I'm using 3/4" birch plywood as opposed to solid board, would that make a difference?  Looking for one locally.  I assume you used wood dowels?

- Neal  

Neal:  My curves are all slightly different.  Most are between 050 and 060, but there are a few near 045.  It's all flextrack with gargraves screws.  080 should be fine for your big engines, but make sure you check their ratings if you put any monsters up there.  I don't have any large engines because mine is double-tracked and those long Superliners (or long engines) would have trouble clearing the consists on the opposite main, when into a curve.

For your brackets, I would check to see if you can bend them with your hands.  If so, I recommend you exchange them for something thicker.

This is the first 8X10 I ever put up there.  It was a test for overall strength.  I even took a hammer to the thick brackets to see if I could bend one before I screwed it to the board.  This board convinced me I had enough support for the whole project.  You can see there are only four brackets holding it up, two big and two small.

Putting a bracket that won't bend on every 16 should give you plenty of support.  Your other ideas about additional support should solve any issues that come up.  Plywood is fine, most guys use plywood on their layouts.  I couldn't because it had to match what was already there, and I like the look of the stained and sealed boards.  I put a lot of time into each one, sanding and sealing three times.  Oh, yeah, since this is my basement, I make sure the dehumidifier is running, spring, summer, and fall.

This pic shows one way to put things together.  You can't dowel perpendicular boards at both ends, so you fasten one end with these small connectors.  You can also see the large bracket coming under the roadbed, and the gaps in the roadbed for that bracket and the next board.   I glued the roadbed to each board, and screwed down as much track as I could before putting it up.  Pre-drill the ties where screws will go, slide the connecting track together, then use a short handled driver to put them through the roadbed and into the wood.  In my case, I only have 7 1/2 inches to work with up there.

Yeah, I'd never doweled anything either.  You need that doweling tool.  You'll find packets of dowels where you buy your wood.  I recommend 1/4 inch by 1 inch.  Three dowels in each board.  Not only does it add overall strength, your pieces should fit together perfectly with no sagging edges between boards.

Sounds like you're about to have a great experience doing this project.  Looking forward to seeing it....

Jerry

Jerry:  Thanks again.  Bracket strength should be fine - no way I can bend. Was more worried about plywood sag in the corners where the edge of the board will be well away from the edge of even a 10" bracket.  Guess there's only 1 way to find out....

- Neal

Neal, don't worry about that.  Even if you don't dowel, you can use those small metal connectors to correct any sagging in the corners.  Since those long brackets won't bend, and you're 1 on 16, you should have no issues.

Looking forward to it...

Jerry

Jerry:  Good to know.  Don't forget, though, that the plywood will be unsupported for roughly a 4' span on the single rail half of the short ends (hallway beneath).  Though I suppose I could run a 2" plywood strip perpendicular to the main board under & along the back edge.  That's what I plan to do to reinforce the plywood for the bridge span.  

Also - is there a specific reason for using fewer, rather than more, screws? I'm a doctor, not an engineer....  😜

Thanks again for the input and photos!

- Neal

Neal, haha, yeah.  Less holes in the wood!!  At some point, someone in your life, or after it, may want to take it down.  I quickly found that each bracket only needed two screws, not three.

Also, my daughter is a doctor and the only engineering I know about comes with a funny hat....

Jerry

Jerry:  Indeed. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't a structural reason for less screws.  The 10" brackets can accommodate 5 screws.

Dodged a bullet this week re: plywood   the garage roof has apparently developed 3 leaks - right over where I was storing the wood.  Thankfully most of the water hit the cutout "scrap" pieces & while water had absorbed there is no major delamination.  Only trouble spot I see on the actual shelf wood is about a 3/4" spot of bubbling way back in a corner out of view.  Got all pieces vertically stored & the tops covered w/some old plastic, just in case.

- Neal

Wow Neal!  That was close!

Neal:

Your project is an inspiration to me and other hobbyists who have filled-up the platform space of a layout resting on legs or sawhorses in the train room. Perhaps the easiest way to expand is to "build upward" with a ceiling-hugging, shelf-mounted route. 

I initially planned a shelf-mounted "pretzel" route with computer-based track software for my L-shaped train room (16x19 feet), but I soon met real-world obstacles:  a downward projecting, load-bearing support beam at the angle of the "L" that shouldn't be notch-cut (for fear of bringing down the ceiling), and walls of different materials -- two brick walls and two stud walls covered with paneling.  Further, installing a ceiling-mounting train shelf around the perimeter of the train room would be blocked by the layout already in place in that room.  A classic case of "building a boat in the basement before realizing there's no doorway to get it out of there." 

I liked the idea mentioned in this posting about installing "plain Jane"metal L-brackets to the wall - showing its vertical leg on the wall above the shelf with its horizontal leg on the wall underneath the shelf; along with crown moulding underneath the shelf for a "finished" look. The moulding would have some additional (but not a lot of) shelf support - mostly a touch of elegance.

Keep posting info gathered along your "learning curve" for the benefit of others!

Mike Mottler    (ritrainguy)
mottlerm@gmail.com

After a crazy Thanksgiving week I was able to get the final cuts done on the end pieces.  I used a tip my dad got regarding fine cutting nice plywood.  After making your line in pencil, cover on both sides with masking tape to keep the edge from fraying, even with a high-quality finish blade.  I must say it worked rather well & got nice, clean cuts. Now to measure & cut the straights and then on to sanding, priming, & painting.

The curved cut looks great!  That is a great tip about the masking tape!! 

Almost forgot to cut the notches to go around the front window trim.  Also got the edges sanded down.  Should be ready for priming!

Lots of progress this past Wednesday as Dad was able to come by & lend a hand.  Lots of priming & panting got done on the end pieces and also the front straight board over the entrance.  Also got a coat of the grey paint on the one side of the ends. 

I also messed around with the dowelling jig I bought at Home Depot.  Was the only one in stock & was back by the wood trim, not the tools.  Seems to work pretty well.  Came with 3 different bit diameters, guides, & bump stops.  It's pretty simple.  Use the guide & jig to figure out how deep your hole needs to be, then clamp the stop to the bit.  Take the jig & clamp the edge where you want to make the hole (remember - measure 2x 1st...), screw in the appropriate guide (easier to see your mark if you unscrew the guide after measuring depth), and drill.  I found I needed to jiggle the bit a little to make the hole large enough to fit the dowel in to the half way point.  I only did the one end board.  I'll see how challenging it is to line up the holes later. 

The one board we didn't have time to do much on is the back straight over the reception station.  I will need to cut this down to the width of the bridge base (~3 & 3/16"), as well as the width of the doorway & trim on the back side.  then it can be primed & painted.  I will add a 2" plywood strip perpendicularly along the midline underneath this board for structural rigidity as well as a place to mount the electronics for the bridge sections that come housed in the pylons. 

Finally, we did get a few brackets mounted.  Pleased w/the security of the ones we have so far, so I'll probably go every other stud, as convenient.  May also have to use some of the large, screw in 50# drywall anchors just to keep it from sagging in one or 2 corners that don't line up with a stud.

There's an outside chance I'll get more stuff done Sunday, but probably not.  We'll definitely have to mount the power brick, TIU, & Legacy base in the equipment closet.  Unfortunately, there's no outlet in there (it's actually the bathroom we don't use, converted to storage).  I'm planning on running a heavy duty extension cord from the one below the large bracket in the picture above through the ceiling & down to the shelf that will be above the toilet.  I can then run wire back out to that corner of the layout, where the DCS WiFi, AIU, & a terminal block will be.  The cord will be masked on the lobby side by one of those stick-on cable bundlers they use for hiding Ethernet cable, etc.  That should keep kids from tugging on it or it generally getting caught.  The outlet is behind a bench, which ought to prevent further interference. 

Thanks again for all the interest in this build.  As always, thoughts & suggestions are appreciated.  If I don't post before, everyone have a very Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year!

- Neal 

Neal, nice post.  Interesting way to do the dowels.  Hope they line up OK.

That bridge is MTH?  Pretty awesome, pretty big!  I used two old Lionel girder bridges on my table layout, for the upper level.  Too high for those plastic pylons, so I used a 3 inch basswood plank underneath them for support.  Works fine, no sagging at all.  I'd be really interested to see that baby up there, and how you mount it.  Also, those boards and brackets.

Jerry

That's a lot of nice work!  It will be a wonderful looking shelf layout!

Mark - Thanks!

Jerry - Yes, it's the MTH red arch bridge, with two 10" extensions.  And, of course, the mirco LED Christmas Lights.  Unfortunately, they won't get to be used this year.

After a long hiatus I have news to report on the lobby layout project!  Finally able to get back to work after what's been a crazy 2019 so far.  Now the final push to have the layout operational by Christmas.

Had the electrician install outlets into the second bathroom/storage room, as well as a pass-through for wiring, while here to install some additional ceiling lighting at the office.  Gave it a nice, finished look on the lobby side.  I've also installed 1 of 2 shelves beneath installed to hold the electronics (not pictured).

Got all the brackets up & the boards fitted into place ok.  Had to do a little trimming but everything lined up pretty well.  Very solid.  Ended up not using the dowling & simply installing a 2nd bracket near the other side of the joint (there are only 4 sections to the shelf).  The plan was to take it down & lay roadbed, track, & wire on the ground.  Unfortunately, the end pieces are especially difficult to fit as the walls aren't quite plumb.   Therefore, it looks like I'll be on the ladder next week. Good thing I'm tall & have long arms. 

Finally, I was able to mount the bridge to the board spanning the doorway to the reception desk.  Looks good, now just need to wire.  It looks like I'm maybe a circuit board short on the main arch section?  Only 1 present in the pylons included, has 1 plug socket, but there are 3 plugs for the bridge lights.  Would be very appreciative of anyone w/experience w/the MTH Christmas light bridge that can help.  The boards from the extensions look ok.  

Well, that's it for now.  Hopefully more to report after Thanksgiving weekend!

- Neal

Neal, everything is looking great!  My corners were tricky, but since the room has dark paneling, it wasn’t worth it to me to spend any more time with my head crammed up against the ceiling than I had to.  Your light walls and shelves would show everything.  The bridge looks great as well 

Neal, the office looks great.  The boards look good up there, and the bridge is definitely awesome!

I have zero knowledge of the bridge and how the lights are connected.  I'm interested to see how you wire the layout and where your control and power panels connect.  Will you add backdrops?  More lights?  Have you decided what tracks and trains are going up there?

Here is a possible car for the office.  It's called Hunting Rabbit Season, Lionel 6-84798.  Also, it's mechanical, no track power required.  A really basic car but, everybody loves it, especially the little ones.

Looking forward to seeing your progress.  Happy Thanksgiving.

Jerry

Jerry, that is a neat car!!

So...after checking the instruction manual for the bridge, it seems I am indeed missing the plug.  I can't imagine I removed it & set it somewhere away from the bridge parts.  Will call MTH & order a new one.

Have begun temporarily tacking track down to check fitment & position.  Will then mark so I can lay down roadbed. The shelf boards are only attached w/a sg. screw at this point in case any movement is needed; the leveling issues should be improved if not fixed when all screws are in place.

Will keep you posted!

- Neal

Got the track fitted & marked this week - now to lay down the roadbed (Flexxbed).  Before doing so I decided to double-check my clearances under the exit sign - had nearly 1.5" - more than enough once the roadbed is in. 

One issue to resolve is the height of the bridge above the main board.  Fortunately, I had accidentally ordered some of the shorter height roadbed after I realized the initial order may not be enough. 

A pair of shims at each end made up the rest of the height difference nicely, and with a nice, easy grade at that!

Hoping to get the track in place & wired by the end of next week!  Will be crazy but so far looking good to be operational before Christmas!

- Neal

The clearance looks good, Clarence!!  If nothing else comes up you should have plenty of time!

Haha, Mark meant Neal.  Clarence is doing another ceiling layout, and we've been trying to help him.

Track looking good, bridge remains very cool.  An inch and a half is lots of room.

Jerry

JerryG posted:

Haha, Mark meant Neal.  Clarence is doing another ceiling layout, and we've been trying to help him.

Track looking good, bridge remains very cool.  An inch and a half is lots of room.

Jerry

I thought it was an Airplane reference....

Have the Outer Loop fit, Flexxbed in place, & ready to finish nailing the track down.  Inner "siding" - though it will likely be the main line - needs some custom fitting but then should be good to go. 

Hoping to have wired in next few days & running trains this coming week! 

- Neal 

P.S. - The wife's been decorating the lobby and I scaled the ladder again to hang lights outside, so we should have some very festive photos when all is done! 

Neal, I’m looking forward to seeing the upcoming photographs!

Last night my father & I got the outer loop of track set in place & the basic wiring finished.  Able to position the WiFi  unit on the shelf ouside, with the TIU & AIU to be eventually wall-mounted in the closet/bathroom.  That should leave room for the LEGACY unit on the shelf.  Left wires long for now; they can be trimmed once final positions for everything are determined. 

Dad screwed in the eye lag screws - hard to find & larger than I would have preferred, but they should work fine.  Will run wire (or perhaps 20# test fishing line) for a safety barrier should a derailment occur.

The initial electrical test was a success!  MTH DCS Wifi worked as expected.  After an initial test lap w/my Cleveland Union Terminal GP-9 we performed a clearance test with the CP Holiday Train.  One of the eye lag screws needed to be repositioned at an angle for clearance, but that easily fixed the problem.  May need to reposition a few more screws when I run 21" passenger cars, but so far so good.  Still have yet to finish fitting the inner track, which will eventually be the main line, as well as wire the switches & some buildings. 

I will keep you posted on my progress, & I hope to have some more pics & maybe a video or two up soon!  Take care & Merry Christmas to all! 

- Neal

Great progress, Neal!

Neal, nice!  Looking good.  The layout will be great.  Is that an AIU in the first pic?  I've never felt the need for one on either layout.  Love to hear how you like it.

You've seen my double-tracked, 8 X 10's, with the 1 1/2 inch clearance to the edge.  In five years, the only way anything fell was when I was talking instead of looking and one train caught up to the other on the same track.  Being O gauge, there are numerous derailments, especially in the first year.  Since then, all those little track issues have been resolved.  BTW, after falling six feet to a very hard tile floor, the only things that have ever broken were those cheap plastic trucks on the old Lionel stuff from the 80's.  Haven't had one in years, but, I was amazed the cars themselves always survive completely intact.

Your trains look great up there.  The CP holiday train is always cool to see.  Have you considered a backdrop to hide the brackets?

Keep them coming, it's fun to see the progress. 

Jerry

Here's the first video of the CP Holiday Train on the loop.  For some reason the lights on the stage boxcar stopped working sometime between last night & this AM.  Wasn't touched in the interim.  

Very nice setup.

Good job!

Nothing like when you get em running, after all the planning and work.

Enjoy!

Thanks for the video.   Love those long curves.  The train is running nice and smooth, and that bridge looks great up there.

Nice! I hear CSN singing  "It's Been a Long Time Comin' "  You can have some fun with it now - perhaps a candid camera to catch some patrons reactions.

You did a great job building at such high altitudes!!  I found it difficult building mine, and haven't gone back to fix all the little things that I should.  I'm going to blame it on the thin air working over 11,000 feet!! 

Congratulations and welcome to Airborne railroading.

Got the main safety wire up today - just got about 60' (will have PLENTY left over) of 1/16" galvanized wire off the spool at Home Depot.  Able to get adequate tension by hand & coarse enough to secure easily w/screws & washers. 

Don't want to forget the back side....

Now time to finish what will be the main line, & start adding some buildings, too!

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, & a Happy New Year to all!

- Neal

Nice job on the guard wires!

Wow, can't believe I uploaded this to YouTube & forgot to post here. 

CP Holiday Train - 1st run!

Can't remember how to embed the video in the post, but I got the link.  Christmas train is switched out now, should have video soon of what's currently running.    Thanks again for the help & interest with this project, & enjoy!

- Neal

Neal,

Excellent choice for first run.  I can believe not posting until now.  My guess is you were too busy with other things.  I was!

Yeah, that's the downside to rural internet, I guess.  Took several hours to upload, and had moved onto other holiday craziness (and work) by the next morning.  Uploading another one today, though, so should have more to share soon!

- Neal

Yes Internet speeds do vary.  More video! Sounds great, Neal!

NYC Century Green E8s & Empire State Express.

What a handsome train!

Got the TIU & AIU wall mounted.  Got the LEGACY CAB-2 hooked in, too, though now the WIU seems to be having issues.  Will try to program in some 3rd Rail TMCC engines. 

Once all the command stuff is situated I'll finish fitting the front track and clean up some of the XS wiring.  Then I'll get some 1" & 2" foam board to shape for several of the corners & wire the buildings.  Still thinking about doing 3 sets of corner boards: spring/summer, fall, & winter. 

- Neal

Sounds great, Neal.  You are doing it first rate!  I’m not seeing the photograph however 

Yes, Neal.  The image is not displaying.  Nice looking video and NYC engine.

Jerry

Interesting.  It's showing up for me.  Will try to re-post. 

Did that work (above)?

Neal, Now I see it!  You have made a nice, neat installation.  What are you going to be controlling with the AIU?  I have not ventured into that aspect of DCS as of yet.

With the AUI I plan to control the two switches as well as the lights of the several buildings for the layout.  Nothing fancy, as of yet.  Maybe eventually one of those MTH operating water towers to top up the engines....  

That sounds great!!  It would be handy to control the switches at least since they are way up in the air!

.

Very nicely done Neal.  I love your safety rail.  Very ingenious using eye lag screws for the stanchions. 

Mark - indeed, though being 6'4" I can manually throw them w/out difficulty if needed. 

Nick - Thanks!  That was a suggestion of another forum member.  Initially I had hoped to find shorter ones, but seeing them installed w/the trains running I'm glad they're as tall as they are. 

- Neal 

Neal, I’m 5’ 11’ and could reach the switches, but decided to take them out more because of track alignment on jogs in the wall on two adjacent walls.  It was too much of a hassle in my room.

So...there has been an unanticipated side effect to the layout.  Much to my enjoyment (and wife's dismay), people have started to bring in or talk about bringing in, old train-related stuff they no longer use or need.  My first gift arrived earlier this week - a photo print of a B&O 2-8-0 Consolidation. 

The client said it was taken in the 1920s, but not much else known, & nothing written on the back.  A quick search on rrpicturearchives.net seems to suggest it would be an E16 class, though there are only 2 photos of such an engine in the collection that I found, and they're both from the other side.  Still, a lot of the subtle details seem to match, & the time period of those photos is consistent w/this one. 

- Neal

Have to bump this thread.  Can't believe that I never saw this one before with me building a ceiling layout.  It came across as a search result.

Great job Neal and I enjoyed reading all of the posts (many from folks who are helping me on my own ceiling expedition) from Step 1 to the the completion.   .  I liked the use of the eye lag screws and wire instead of Lexan/PlexiGlas for flying train protection.  Great idea!.

Amfleet25124 posted:

Have to bump this thread.  Can't believe that I never saw this one before with me building a ceiling layout.  It came across as a search result.

Great job Neal and I enjoyed reading all of the posts (many from folks who are helping me on my own ceiling expedition) from Step 1 to the the completion.   .  I liked the use of the eye lag screws and wire instead of Lexan/PlexiGlas for flying train protection.  Great idea!.

You can get plastic coated cable too for more scratch resistance. (hvac and plumbing supply house item.... only maybe at a bigbox)