One TPC 400 & 2 Power Districts

You need two TPC units if you want to run two trains on two power districts.  You only get one variable output from the TPC.

Do you even need a TPC? It is my understanding that the ZW controller gives you essentially 4 TPC's in one housing.

 

Al

You're right Al, I read ZW and not ZW controller!

 

No PowerMaster needed, put that puppy on eBay.

Lionel says that a ZWC will run any combination of bricks. But on this forum I have learned that sometimes the literature is incorrect. They always show usually two matched. Either 135s or 180s with jumpers on 2 and 4. Can you use a 135 on the first and a 180 on the second with jumpers on 3 and 4? Or two 135s and a 180 with jumper? Thanks FMH

I have run mine with two 180W bricks on channels 1 & 4, and two 135W bricks on channels 2 & 3.  It worked fine, nothing out of the ordinary happened.  I haven't had the jumpers in and run two dissimilar bricks, but I have no reason to believe it won't work.

Here is a one line block diagram of what I did with two PH 135's. You would have (4)  power districts from the BPC. On from Source #1, On from Source #2, Off, Select track 1, 2, 3 or 4.  Note the ability to have two power sources to the BPC second diagram.


A second more elaborate diagram. 

Mike, Diagrams look nice but the IPhone app does not allow me to zoom in on embedded graphics. Or text for that matter. Can you post as attachments? Looks like good info but I can not read. Thanks FMH

You don't need any TPC boxes for your layout since you have the ZW-C, you have four PowerMasters already.

 

The wiring is simply connect the bricks to the inputs, jumper any that you'd like to omit the brick on, and connect the power districts to the ZW-C outputs.

 

I'm not sure how Mike's diagram fits your situation.  In any case, the diagrams are pretty low resolution, and even on a real computer I can't blow them up any more.

John is right the ZW-C has 4 power districts built in and in runs fine with any combination of bricks. No need to use the TPC 400 as you can do everything with the ZW. In the manual it tells how to set the ZW for TMCC control. Once it is set it should run any conventional engine and blow the whistle or ring the bell. With 4 outputs you could run 4 conventional loops or 4 TMCC controlled loops or any combination at the same time with a cab1 or cab2.

Ron

Thanks Railfan and gunrunner.

That is what I had hoped.

 

So with a ZW-C and 2 powermasters plus four 135w bricks and one 180w brick, I should be able to get 6 variable voltage power districts (90w for the two smaller) if I use the 180w brick to power 2 channels on the ZW-C

 

add a command base and two Cab-1 handhelds and my son and I should be able to get enough variations of TMCC and conventional loops to keep us occupied.

 

With two mainlines, a prototypical classification yard, turntable/roundhouse and a few freight spurs, I figure that should be just enough power to run the trains.

 

I  also have a few CW's that I can use for switches. accesories and lights.

 

I am curious why the instructions say that the ZW bricks should be on a different circuit from the Command Base but I did not see that mentioned for the power masters.

I have previously been keeping everything on one power strip.

 

Either simple layman terms or technical explanation would be great.

Thanks

 

Where did you see that the PowerHouse supplies should be on a different circuit than the command base?  That's news to me.

You must power up the command base before you power the bricks. Maybe that what you  are seeing? It usually will work if the command base is in the outlet closest to the power inlet source.

 

Doug

Doug/gunrunner,

 

You are both correct. I misinterpreted. Power strip, not circuit and the command base is supposed to be powered up first.

 

I never had that issue with my Powermasters so I am not sure if the requirement applies.

I believe that I shut down the brick first out of habit than turn off my strip.

Lately, after Dales post on lighting surges, i have started unplugging it.

 

 

From the Lionel Z-WC manual

 

Noteo not plug in the ZW Controller and the Command Base to the same power strip.

You must power up the Command Base before the ZW Controller.

 

 

Doug, Were you kidding about using the first outlet in the strip? FMH

Mike,

I thought the Cab-1 sends a Rf signal to the Command base which controlls the TPC via hardwired Command base cable.

If so the TPC is basically off until told otherwise.

 

But I think that the ZW-C is controlled directlly by the Cab-1 like a powermaster.

The command base base only controls the TMCC engines or accesory.

My question was why does the Command Base need to be powered up first.

 

And assuming it does and my logic is correct, does the same apply to the Powermaster?

I believe that the reasoning for powering up the command base first, is to ensure that a command signal is present when the ZW comes on line. Otherwise you could be treated to the sight of locomotives attempting world land speed records because they have reacted to full power in conventional mode with the ZW handles fully on. As TPC's won't do anything without a command signal, this isn't a problem for them.

You guys are correct, of course.  I forgot about the ZW-C having to see the command base signal.

 

Just turn it on first, no need for separate circuits.

 

As Nicole says, the PowerMaster doesn't care as it's just waiting for a command.

Right now I have a 1 power strip pluged into another.  The one connected to the wall has the command base in the first position and at the other end the second strip is connected.  It has 8-10 plug-ins which include the bricks.  So the bricks get power probably a milisecond later.  But it works

 

Doug

Actually, I just did an experiment here.  My ZW-C operated correctly coming up with the Legacy command base on the same switched power strip.  I think it's still a good idea to power the base up first however.

A little more confused. The ZW-C manual was written for TMCC  pre Legacy.

But the manual does indicate that the ZW_C needs to see a command Base to function in TMCC mode. see below.

 

"he ZW Controller can also be controlled remotely in the TrainMaster Command Control

environment with the addition of a Command Base and a CAB-1 Remote Controller (both

available separately). As illustrated in Figure 5, simply attach a wire to the U terminal on the"

 

Since the Powermaster is also a Rf controlled TPC unlike the TPC 400 which is technically cable controlled via a RF switch we can assume that they are both normally off. They are also basically voltage regulators

 

Which makes sense.

 

Doug indicates that the reason Lionel recomemds that you turn on the Command Base first is because you may have left your throttles on.

Using that logic, you would think Lionel would caution you about turning your throttles off before turning on your bricks when using  the ZW-C in conventional mode. 

Which to me is common sense.

 

If that is the real reason, you would think they would just recomend that your turn on your bricks individually in both Command and conventional and check your throttle prior to doing so. 

and lastly, does that mean you can not control conventiona trainsl with the Cab-1 without the base or not at all.

I thought the idea was that the ZW-C was 4 Powermasters?

The cab-1 (or cab-2) communicates with the base.  Without the base the cab will not work.

 

doug

The CAB1 talks directly to PowerMasters, and only PowerMasters.  While the ZW-C is "like" having four PowerMasters, it receives the standard TMCC 455khz signal for control.

 

Interesting point about the ZW-C coming up in conventional and having all the throttles open, makes sense.

The more I think about it and I will test when I get home. If the ZW-C Functions like the Powermaster it doesn't need to see a command signal at all. If it is like TPC 400 then why doesn't it use the cable connection from the command base if that's what's controlling it

Gunrunner you slipped it in before I hit the send button. So actually it is similar to both but functions a little differently

yes I'm sure you are right. I stated that wrong.  Thanks John.

 

i always leave my throttles open, but I seldom run conventional.  When I do it is my old postwar and they start in neutral.

 

doug

Pressing the HALT button on the CAB-1 Remote Controller immediately interrupts the voltage on all four channels, as long as a Command Base is present. Each track must then be addressed individually and throttled back up. (In single handle mode, throttling up channel A also throttles up channels B, C, and D, see page 15). ", as long as a Command Base is present. " From the ZW-C manual. Now assuming you need the Command Base to control the ZW-C And you are using it without one and you panic and pick up your Cab-1 and hit the HALT button then you deserve what you get for leaving it in view. Who writes this stuff? FMH

The same, only different, you have it.

 

The reason the ZW-c needs to see the command base is it will toggle between TMCC and regular mode automatically. If it doesn't see the signal it will just come up with the handles being operative. So you could use it in regular old ZW mode just by turning off the command base. 

Ron

Correct Ron, I think the discussion is that if you turn them on at the same time, it manages to recognize the TMCC carrier.  At least it does for some of us.   They do indeed say to turn the command base on first in the ZW-C manual.

Doug,

 I am going to conceed that you are correct regarding the Lionel reasoning

If the Zw-C does not see the Command base it will act as a conventional ZW and the voltage will be what whatever the lever is set at. I can see this being a problem if TMCC operators leave their throttles on. Rarely would  a conventional operater do this, I think.

 

In command mode.

 

"In the Command environment, the voltage of

output channels B and C will reflect their handle

settings on power-up." which could also be a problem if you have left a conventional train on either of those two channels.

 

A and D come up as 0 volts.

 

But

You could also have the same issue with all channels if you IDed the ZW-C as Tr#0 with a Base attached  and have throttles open.

 

I did notice another minor operating difference between the Powermaster and the ZW-C

Upon power up, selecting TR#* and hitting Boost  in Command mode the Powermaster goes to full available voltage. I have a Powerstation Controller inline with my 135 Brick because it allows me to preset voltage to around 16V.

 

The ZW-C seems to act like a Powermaster in Conventional mode requiring one to select the track and then dial up the voltage. Boost only seems to work incrementally.

 

Since I have installed my own meters, it is not a big issue, but I wonder how others know when they are at full track voltage before addressing their engine in TMCC mode.

 

I also noticed that the Manual flip flops on the A_B_C_D and U posts depending whether it is illustrated or diagramed.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm just glad I don't need this capability for an all-command situation.

I would agree on that point. I think it must've been a disappointment for operators using Power Masters and running mixed conventional and TMCC Engines with just a Cab-1 and hoping for a minor upgrade. Not only did they have to buy a command base, I think they lost the ability to run their Command engines conventionally with the Cab-1. Or if it is even possible to run them mixed. It might be an either or situation.

I haven't delved into all the complexities of mixing conventional and command, I'm pretty much command all the way.  I have a few conventional items, but they're just waiting for command upgrades.

On TMCC control you could run 4 loops with the ZW and use the b and c throttles for TMCC engines and a and d throttles for conventional at the same time or any combination for that matter. The middle throttles come up to full voltage when addressed. With a powermaster for each loop and a command base you could do the same thing and run any combination of command and conventional engines. The caveat is none of this can happen ON THE SAME LOOP without some of fancy footwork.

Ron

While that is true. Can you run conventional and Command engines in conventional mode on four loops with the ZW-C like you can with 4 Power masters and Cab-1? I am leaning toward no because of the required command base. Unless reprogramming toTrack id# 0 somehow hides the base from engine.