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I receive the Lionel 2022 catalog and decided to look through it. I have not been keeping up with Lionel in the past few years and was absolutely astounded by the prices. Engines from $600 to $2000. Pastic rolling stock at hundreds of dollars etc. Given the quantity of LTI and Postwar Lionel that is available I wonder how many of the "bluetooth enhanced models" made in China lionel will sell? Certainly most of us over 65 living on fixed incomes can not afford those rather high priced models. Kindly let me know your thoughts. Best Regards, Jerry from Jerry's Train Gallery Chatham, NJ.

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Prices have been going up steadily for a while now. This topic has been discussed pretty much every time a new catalog comes out.

Prices for everything - food, gas, used cars, etc - are going up, including trains. Lionel's BlueTooth engines have been selling for a few years now (although not necessarily because they have BlueTooth), and they will likely continue to sell. Postwar trains are a segment of the O gauge market but not the only one. It's been brought up on more than one occassion that Lionel makes a huge chunk of its money from the starter sets, and this will most likely not change. Atlas I believe is raising prices as well. Looking at the former-MTH tooling F40PH that Atlas have for preorder, they're selling for +25% over what MTH sold the same model for in 2017. (I'll add the disclaimer that I am not an expert on MTH trains, someone please correct me if this comparison is wrong). That is of course a scale model, but the point remains: prices are going up everywhere, including in the hobby. There's just no getting away from it.

I am mostly a scale guy (with some traditional O for the fun of it) and typically stick to the secondary market for rolling stock - it is hard for me to stomach paying $200 a piece for new passenger cars and $70 - $100 for freight cars (as nice and detailed as they are). Although I often would like to order everything in the catalog, I will pass up on pre-orders, or may order 1 or 2 items to round out the collection.

I just see it as a reality of the hobby and the times we are living in.

Alan is right.  There are several threads on this subject.   

I personally have never seen any prices retreat back to pre-inflation levels.  I'm not opposed to it,  just never seen it happen.

Like 1964, gasoline at 19.9 cents/gal, a loaf of bread 5 cents, VW beetle $1700 new, etc.  You can still buy those items at those prices if you use 1964 dimes, quarters or halves.

Last edited by aussteve

Jerry, we have had NUMEROUS threads about the high prices.  It might be best for you to do a search for one of those and post there.

Agreed.  Please don't start a new one.  This has been covered ad nauseum.

In fact, lately when you look up ad nauseum in the dictionary what comes back is 'being flabbergasted at how high toy train asking prices have gone'.

Mike

I can understand the sticker shock, but this is nothing new, every year people see the new catalog and gasp. Even before inflation roared up in the economy as a whole, prices were soaring with new trains and stuff. Last year around labor day Mario's had a sale on the ZW-L that brought it down to like 630 (was a great price, grant you that), when it was like 700 elsewhere..today it is well over 900 most places. The top level engines from Lionel have been well over 1000 dollars for a long time, 1500 is a kind of median price in my view (absolutely no data science behind that!) for legacy steam engines, Diesels a bit more cheaper, but still expensive.

Some of this reflects the real inflation out there, among other things the cost of shipping thanks to Covid related issues, the cost of sending a shipping container has literally gone up 12 fold from China to the US compared to pre covid. The cost of chips do to inflation itself and reduced availability. Thanks in part to covid and in part to the MTH drama, you can't even get TIU's and the new Cab 3, and the old TIU's and Cab 2's are going for ridiculous prices used in many cases.

And it isn't just O gauge 3 rail. I get MR, and the cost of HO and N scale equipment has shot up, too, I routinely see N scale engines that are pushing 500,600 bucks.

And of course, as every other thread has pointed out, these trains were never cheap, just seems like they were looking back in time, and today postwar stuff is affordable because there is a lot out there and the old collecting frenzy died many years ago. That engine today that costs like 100 bucks (talking postwar) was selling at like 300 in the early 80's during the 'boom' (In then dollars, not current).

I sympathize, while I can theoretically afford the new engines, my actual list of priorities makes it that I likely won't be buying any of them either.

My 1971 Chevrolet Vega was around 2000 dollars.  Cheapest car available then.  Average car now sells for around $35,000.  That's life.  Of course the Vega was literally a piece of junk compared with even the cheapest car today, which has air bags and is much more reliable.  Same with today's trains.  The Thomas set is cheaper, corrected for inflation, than the cheapest Lionel set from the 1960s.  It has command control (LionChief). 

That said, for retired folks on a fixed income (assuming that is Social Security and not a multi-million dollar pension/401K/IRA), the rising prices of everything are a challenge. Hopefully you're not paying for your grandchildren's college tuition, children's rehab or a mortgage.  Godspeed.

I have a co-worker who is into Skeet Shooting competition, he told me the amount of money he spends on guns and such, and I almost swallowed my tongue! I told my wife she should be grateful that all I do is collect and run model trains no matter what the price, because it just doesn't compare. She then said "I still Love you!" I then said , you're just saying that so when when I'm gone and your on Forensic files people will say nice things about you! She just laughed, and now I'm up at night wondering . . .  LOL!!!

Jerry, It’s nice to see you posting. I miss our visits and learning about Flyer and so so much more. I look forward to catching up again over lunch soon. And  I agree….some of these prices are rather high. Certainly probably way more than when you had your MTH and Lionel franchises. But then look at everything else. Who would thought pickup trucks would cost 90k. I’ll reach out by text. I’m visiting a project in Kearny next week.
Best, Willard

Last edited by WRW

i'm actually thinking of sticking to my local roadnames of North Carolina to slim things down

stuff like Atlantic Coastline, Seaboard, Southern and the original norfolk Southern especially as i live about a mile from the original NS main line in greenville which is now run by the Carolina Coastal.

there is also two old Seaboard Coastline stations here but they no longer function

@Craftech posted:

Inflation arguments are valid, but there is no valid argument for 3rd party price gouging resulting from short supply.   It stops when normal supply is resumed.

John

John,

3rd parties are free to ask whatever price they prefer.  Lionel can't do anything about it.

As far as dealers go, although by law they're not required to sell at MSRP, it's irrelevant because, by and large, Lionel dealers have no Cab-2/Base-2's left in stock.

Buying used, or from eBay if the seller is not a dealer, doesn't count.  These sales are not of factory-new products.

Lionel has already said that they can't make any more Cab-2/Base-2's to alleviate the situation because parts are no longer available.

There is no price-gouging here, just market forces at play in a compound shortage situation.

You can be angry at them for not seeing this coming, but I can't.  The disruptions being seen today are the largest since WWII.  How was anybody supposed to predict that these would all show up at the same time, and show up now?

Mike

Last edited by Mellow Hudson Mike

John,

3rd parties are free to ask whatever price they prefer.  Lionel can't do anything about it.

As far as dealers go, although by law they're not required to sell at MSRP, it's irrelevant because, by and large, Lionel dealers have no Cab-2/Base-2's left in stock.

Buying used, or from eBay if the seller is not a dealer, doesn't count.  These sales are not of factory-new products.

Lionel has already said that they can't make any more Cab-2/Base-2's to alleviate the situation because parts are no longer available.

There is no price-gouging here, just market forces at play in a compound shortage situation.

You can be angry at them for not seeing this coming, but I can't.  The disruptions being seen today are the largest since WWII.  How was anybody supposed to predict that these would all show up at the same time, and show up now?

Mike

Mike,

Let me clarify.

MAIN POINT 1.  Lots of new fantastic electronic trains with nothing to run them with unless you already have it.

Solution?  Keep buying new expensive locos if you already have something to run them with or don't buy new expensive locos because you have nothing to run them with (my decision).  I do buy used conventional though.

2.  I read through the comments.  Many of the arguments are about costs then vs costs now.  I have no problem with that.  I agree with that.  I also don't believe Lionel is price gouging.  But if what we need most are command devices and the only way to buy them is from people charging 2-3 times MSRP for used stuff, that fits the classic definition of "price gouging".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging

Solution?  For now (until normal production resumes for command control) either pay the price gougers (you can call it 'market forces' if you like) or do without (my decision).

John

@KOOLjock1 posted:

Good thing toy train prices are the only thing going up!

Jon

Good one, Jon! I guess my question would be: "Are prices on anything--anything we use in our lives--going down?" Example: I like bacon. It's not good for me, of course, but I like it and figure I have only one shot at being on the upside of the dirt. Price of a pound of that yummy stuff is roughly twice what it was just a few months ago, and likely to go up again. I have a few--very few--O gauge locomotives on preorder, with most all of them due at or near the end of this year. I assume those prices will hold, and I am planning on those payments now by putting some $ aside each month. It's not an easy pill to swallow, but it is what it is and there is not a **** thing any of us can really do about it.

On the brighter side, the value of your used trains has also gone up, although not as much as your used car or SUV or house.

Charlie

Took my 2020 Kia Soul SUV in for some repair a few weeks ago (bent rim due to hitting a major pothole), and walked out of the dealership a few hours later with a new and larger 2022 Seltos SUV (equipped with even more features) for a relatively few bucks a month more in payments. And I didn't even have to pay the $850 for the new tire and rim on the car I initially took in for repair.

Last edited by Allan Miller

I would love to go with postwar, but I just LOVE command control!

Just keep your purchases to certain roads and/or time periods.  Also, nothing wrong with semi-scale.

Sorry Publisher, but it looks like this has become yet another full-blown thread on high prices.

I'm with you, Frank. I love command control too, having switched to it from conventional about 5 years ago. And I do keep my purchases confined to certain roads (Union Pacific and Santa Fe) in the 1950 to 1970 period. I run only  2 passenger trains and the equivalent of 3 freight trains and switch them out on my 2-train layout every so often. It's all my grandkids and I need to enjoy the hobby and we're happy.

Seems I'm periodically selling a freight car to trade up to a newer, different one and this keeps the rolling freight stock interesting while helping to keep the costs down. The sales from the older cars help offset the cost of the newer ones and I'm sure I'm not the only one who does this. About 95% of my purchases have been off eBay over the past 17 years and I've had very few problems, none of which were not resolved. A good way to enjoy the hobby without spending a fortune.

As a musician in reference to rising prices, I won't tell you what a new pedal steel guitar costs along with a decent amplifier to hear it. You wouldn't believe me anyway.

@Craftech posted:

... what we need most are command devices and the only way to buy them is from people charging 2-3 times MSRP for used stuff, that fits the classic definition of "price gouging".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging

Solution?  For now (until normal production resumes for command control) either pay the price gougers (you can call it 'market forces' if you like) or do without (my decision).

John

John,

I think we're on the same page, but I have to disagree on your terms.

Since it's not being bought from a dealer, or from Lionel, no one is gouging.  It would be indeed be classic "price-gouging" if it were actually happening, and if bought from them, but it's not.

The term doesn't apply to 3rd parties, and not to used equipment.

"Scalping" might be a better term, if it's "new" and resold by a 3rd party.  Think concert tickets. Same thing.

If "used" then it's market beware.

Mike

Last edited by Mellow Hudson Mike

The prices in the Lionel 2022 catalog, for engines for $600 to $2000 reflect the demand of more scale like, electronic laden, and more detailed trains.  It is obvious that the majority of the population on OGR forum like these type of model trains and Lionel knows this and is meeting demand.

Some of us, mostly old timers who had post war trains and kids, still like Lionel model toy trains and enjoy their toy like properties and enjoy buying a good post war, toy engine for $40 - $50.  This a good thing as many seniors are on fixed or limited incomes and can not afford the luxury of the latest $60-$2000 engines.

Charlie

Last edited by Choo Choo Charlie

The pricing is unfortunate, but it's really nothing new. Lionel sold their 700E for the equivalent of $1,500 dollars in 1937. By comparison, Lionel's latest J3a had an MSRP of $1,400. Pick things you think you need, not want. Buy used items, buy broken/damaged items and repair them, or mix between scale and semi-scale. There are many effective ways to save money in this hobby.

Last edited by The Pullman

These posts are useless.  Prices are set by costs of production relative to demand.  There are also monetary policy decisions involved that are off limits here. If people pay the price asked, then they aren’t too high.  Everything else is just people expressing a view that they would like things to be cheaper.  The answer is to make more money or buy less crap that you don’t need.  

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