PRR Atlantic (converting from B&O markings)

I have decided to try to convert my legacy Atlantic from B&O markings to a PRR E6 Atlantic.  With the new Atlantics starting to show up, including I believe a PRR in 460 with keystone plate, and a 68, the topic is apropos!

I removed the decals (or is it paint?) using CRC Lectra-Motive to start and then buffing them away with a dremel buffing wheel.

I was surprised and kind of excited about how well it worked. It did not remove the black paint.  While there are faint shadows of the letters I think they won't be noticeable after the new lettering is applied and over coated.  

The other effect of the buffing is that the area is now shiny  but I think that is more conducive to application of the new decals.

Before (note cab and dome):

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After:

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Last pose with B&O graffiti (I kid I kid 😛😂):

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I ordered a new boiler front from Lionel parts. It's the Legacy 460 with the round number plate.  I wanted to use the round plate and also just do the simple Pennsylvania letters on the tender without the pinstripes.  However, from looking at photos of the prototype, I am guessing that the keystone boiler front number plate was added at the same time the tender pinstripes were dropped.

Question 1: did PRR 460 ever exist with round plate and no pinstripes on tender? 

Question 2: did any PRR E6 Atlantics exist with round plate and no pinstripes on tender?  I am not really concerned with staying true to the exact life of the 460.

Stupidly though I also ordered another Lionel Atlantic boiler front with the Keystone plate, with number 68 (the TMCC version)  so I might just use this one if it will fit.

I suppose the 460 keystone plate might become available in lionel parts soon when the newest legacy version arises seemingly soon. But I don't care about the specific number.

I also ordered microscale PRR steam decals.  Question 3 would be does anyone have any tips for applying these? I am pretty apprehensive about this. 

Question 4: are there any O scale PRR steam stencils available to paint the lettering with an airbrush etc?  I noticed that the Pennsylvania lettering is going to go right across the horizontal line of rivets on the tender which I am guessing could be trouble with decals. Again any tips greatly appreciated.

Long post, l know, with many questions.  I hope some of you enjoy this project with me!  I've never done this.  Wish me luck! 

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Original Post

2 pictures of #460 are available at: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/prr_steam3.html

Suggest instead of decals to use dry transfers from Clover House - set 7784-03-DT-O looks right.


A good deal of strategic planning is like a ritual rain dance.

It has no effect on the weather that follows, but those who engage in it think it does. 

Furthermore, much of the advice related to strategic planning is directed at improving the

dancing, not the weather.

 

 

"Will they mold around the rivets if done correctly?
Keep us posted on how that turns out.

As for the Micro-Scale decals, use their decal setting solutions only! Micro-Set first and Micro-Sol second (If needed). And by all means don't touch after applying the solution. The decal may seem to shrivel a bit but leave it alone until it dries, it will level out on its own.

Do I dull coat over them? 
Yes, or whatever clear coat that you prefer.

I received the boiler fronts from Lionel parts (very quickly I will add). 

20180929_120258

I decided to go with the round plate, #460.  I could not find any pictures of the 460 or any other Atlantic with the round plate and non-pinstriped tender. But I did find a few pictures of PRR passenger locomotives with such a combination:

20180929_18024820180929_180440

And an Atlas version of a PRR Atlantic with such a combination:

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Loose precedent, but it's good enough for me. 

I removed the B&O face and installed the PRR face.  While I had the locomotive opened I added weight to the front.  This engine really finely balanced on the rear drivers and the slightest bumps or draw bar strain causes the front end to bounce up and down very easily. If I put the slightest pressure on the cab roof with my finger the front end and front drivers lift.

I made a pack of a few of these weights:

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Wrapped in black masking tape and hot glued right on the back of the newly installed boiler front.  Couldn't get a great pic, but here's a shot:

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So here's where I am so far:

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I got the microscale decals, and they look great, and include a lot of decals, including the tender pinstriping pieces.  But I am not really wanting that style tender, and it would be quite a task to do all the striping.  But I am impressed with the product.  However I am going to try the dry transfers when they arrive. 

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pennsy484 posted:
mwb posted:

2 pictures of #460 are available at: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/uggest instead of decals to use dry transfers from Clover House - set 7784-03-DT-O looks right.

Agreed. Thank you. I ordered them. 

Will they mold around the rivets if done correctly?

With care, yes. A good embossing tool makes this more possible.

Do I dull coat over them? 

Dull coat can react with these sometimes; I use Rustoleum Clear Matte.

This reefer was done with Clover House dry transfers sealing between layers and finally with Rustoleum Clear Matte.


A good deal of strategic planning is like a ritual rain dance.

It has no effect on the weather that follows, but those who engage in it think it does. 

Furthermore, much of the advice related to strategic planning is directed at improving the

dancing, not the weather.

 

 

pennsy484 posted:

I received the boiler fronts from Lionel parts (very quickly I will add). 

20180929_120258

I decided to go with the round plate, #460.  

So here's where I am so far:

20180929_173908

 

I got the microscale defals, and they look great, and include a lot of decals, including the tender pinstriping pieces.  But I am not really wanting that style tender, and it would be quite a task to do all the striping.  But I am impressed with the product.  However I am going to try the dry transfers when they arrive. 

That WAS quick!

I prefer the round plate; so far your engine looks great.

Mark in Oregon

Originally posted by Big Jim

Will they mold around the rivets if done correctly?
Keep us posted on how that turns out.

As for the Micro-Scale decals, use their decal setting solutions only! Micro-Set first and Micro-Sol second (If needed).
And by all means don't touch after applying the solution.

 

Wait a Minute... Doesn't one use Micro SOL First? That's the stuff that Softens the liquid... Then Micro SET... which is the setting solution.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/184452.aspx

For me Micro Set never worked. I went with Pledge with Future Floor Shine as a setting solution. Works great and in a lot less time than micro set!  http://www.finescale.com/how-t...gloss-has-a-new-name

member:Golden Spike Club Charter Member

I received the dry transfers from Clover House today, which was quick, along with with a nice thank you note.  

Sure enough, as MWB mentioned above, there is apparently a potential issue with using Testors Dullcoat over the transfers.  They mentioned specific examples of clear coats they tested and I ended up using the Krylon Matte Finish, which I had on hand. 

Here's the note they sent with the dry transfers:

20181004_001403

I sprayed the surfaces (whole tender, and just the part below the cab window) with the matte finish, let it cure for around a half hour (I can be impatient), applied the transfers using end of a small paint brush and a small spatula as burnishing tools, and overcoated with the matte finish.

The can side numbers are a bit small but I was surprised by the small size of the numbers on the prototype, so it's not too far off actually.

I painted the front truck wheels and the rims of the drivers black (flat rattle can on truck wheels, and Collector Color 675 semigloss black on drivers).  For the drivers I hooked leads to the locomotive held it in my hand and ran the drivers at a slowish rate while applying the paint with a small brush just to the rims. 

I also made an air compressor steam exhaust pipe from 14 gage solid copper wire with straps made from thinner wire, painted and expoxied in place (Gorilla clear epoxy).  It's strange that it's absent on the model to begin with.  The 14 gage is a bit thick, but it matches well with the molded in steam line running into the air compressor  16 probably would have been perfect but this is what I had on hand and I think it looks fine. 

The pilot is pretty spartan so I have ordered air brake hoses and coupler cut bar assembly parts from Precision Scale which I will add at some point when I get them, and perhaps remover the superfluous classification lights from the pilot per the prototype.

Pictures:

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And the transition sequence 🙂:

Screenshot_20181002-174649_GalleryScreenshot_20181002-174720_Gallery20181004_001043

This was an easy and highly enjoyable and rewarding project.

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Great project and fantastic result.  Congrats on a nice engine!

As for the lights on the tender, I believe they are marker lights as opposed to classification lights.  On the front of your engine you have marker lights on the pilot beam (red and yellow lenses) and classification lights on the smokebox (green and white lenses). This was standard pre-war Pennsy practice.  Eventually the Pennsy stopped using classification lights altogether  (I'm not sure of the transition date, but I believe it was prior to WW2).  After that point the front end marker lights could either be mounted on the pilot beam or the smokebox.  As for the tender markers, I believe the Pennsy always used them, but in later years they moved them from the tender deck to platforms on the rear of the tender.  I believe that is why you don't see them in the prototype photo.  But your tender markers in their current location are appropriate for the time period of your engine based on the front end marker/class light configuration.  Recommend you do some web searches to verify this information.  There are plenty of Pennsy experts on the forum who could chime in on this too

Regardless, you did wonderful job on your engine.  She's a beauty.  Thanks for sharing your project!

 

Scott R posted:

Great project and fantastic result.  Congrats on a nice engine!

Eventually the Pennsy stopped using classification lights altogether  (I'm not sure of the transition date, but I believe it was prior to WW2).  After that point the front end marker lights could either be mounted on the pilot beam or the smokebox.  

 

Thank you!

I didn't know about the classification lights being discontinued. This explains the red marker lights on some models rather than green. 

Very nice job.     A comment about the weight you added.    The best balance for the loco should be between the drivers.    In other words set the loco on a 1/2 inch diameter dowel or pipe crossways between the drivers.    The perfect situation would be a balance but that is also almost impossible to achieve.    but you can get close and get a feel for whether it is nose heavy or tail heavy.   

I have a 4-4-0 that was very nose heavy when I got it.    It was so bad,  you could slide a piece of paper between the rear drivers and the rail.    I had to take weight out of the nose and find places to  put it in the cab.

A loco that is close to balanced on the drivers will pull the best it can.

pennsynut posted:

Very nice work Jeff.  What brand passenger cars are in your video?  They have a nice color and finish?  I run 18 inch K-Line versions that are OK but not as nicely finished.  

Thank you!

The cars are the old MTH Premier 18 inch heavy weights, which don't have passengers.  You used to be to get them pretty cheap at York.  I am in the process of replacing the lights with LED tape strip lights since some of the bulbs are out and/or light fixtures are broken.  It's very easy to do on these cars.  Also doing a little painting in the interiors and adding people.

20181010_19121520181010_230137

After (left)  before (right) :

20181010_231104

I got the warm white leds but still a bit too white but I think I will leave them as is without using any yellow nail polish or whatever.  Or they might just look too white in comparison with the dimmer old half lit car. 

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Jeff, there’s a booth in Orange Hall the sells only paints. They could set you up with the exact shade. Don’t know their name, but they’re on the end of their aisle, left of center, on the center crossing aisle. 

Jim B&O, Ma & Pa., Canton, and WM

TCA '04, WB&A '05, MDOG '11

"Be happy. You never know how much time you have left"

pennsy484 posted:
pennsynut posted:

Very nice work Jeff.  What brand passenger cars are in your video?  They have a nice color and finish?  I run 18 inch K-Line versions that are OK but not as nicely finished.  

Thank you!

The cars are the old MTH Premier 18 inch heavy weights, which don't have passengers.  You used to be to get them pretty cheap at York.  I am in the process of replacing the lights with LED tape strip lights since some of the bulbs are out and/or light fixtures are broken.  It's very easy to do on these cars.  Also doing a little painting in the interiors and adding people.

After (left)  before (right) :

20181010_231104

I got the warm white leds but still a bit too white but I think I will leave them as is without using any yellow nail polish or whatever.  Or they might just look too white in comparison with the dimmer old half lit car. 

Gee, I think the one on the right looks better...sorry! 

Let us (me) know what you think of the "Apex" book, please...

Mark in Oregon

Strummer posted:

Let us (me) know what you think of the "Apex" book, please...

Mark in Oregon

You also mentioned liking the right pic above. The current lights are just a bit too dim, and probably look better in a photo than real life.  But I do get where you are coming from. I will reassess once they are all done and determine if I should yellow coat the LEDs.

I am right in the middle of reading the Apex book.  I love this kind of thing. It's great for me because I have read several PRR books and am starting to amass a collection of these old books.  I have read some about the E6, like it combining essentially an E6 frame and H8 boiler, so this Apex books is well timed for me because it goes into more detail of the overall story and mechanics, of it all. Fascinating to me for some reason!

I really should be working but ... 😂

In the Atlantic Color Off thread, PRRJIM posted this:

Screenshot_20181011-163256_Chrome

Maybe the above isn't clear, but my point here is that freight car color and black in various ratios is the red on the PRR locomotives (as a general statement here).

I then found this: http://www.pennsyrr.com/index.php/general/172-paints

Screenshot_20181012-151305_Chrome

Which basically says freight car color can be estimated with zinc chromate Primer (and with SAL orange depending on time frame).

And struck pay dirt in the paint drawer:

20181012_145309

So I guess I can take a stab at this. 

Any and all suggestions more than welcome! 

Maybe should leave well enough alone, but I can't help myself. 😂

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I ended up deciding to make up a 460 keystone plate.  I removed the 68 keystone from the other smoke box front I got, painted it, and cobbled together numbers 4, 6, and 0 (used the 9 from the dry transfer leftovers for the 6, and the 4 from the "1347" included with the transfers).  The size and shape of the Keystone isn't exact right I think, it's a tad short, and the numbers are a different font and size than on the prototype but I am relieved and satisfied.

I noticed that since the new Lionel legacy PRR 460 E6s has arrived, the smokebox front is now technically available on Lionel parts, but it says to call Lionel to order.  I imagine they need to preserve those they have for actual repairs for people who bought that engine.

20181012_204907

20181012_205123

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