Problem Solved with conventional Reset. PS3 Engine - Sometimes starts normal, starts conventional, takes off for the races

Ron are these engines premier or railking? 

are these engines premier or railking? 

Why would that make a difference?

Because i had a couple issues with railking and premier diesel's doing samething and it was wiring problem on both.  

i had a couple issues with railking and premier diesel's

Again, if you had problems with both, why does it matter which he has?

They are both Premier... The problem, when I can get it to replicate, occurs on these side tracks when power is instantly applied vice my main lines where the power is gradually risen to 18 volts.  I can't help but think that might be at least part of the issue.

Ron

Because the premier engine the switch for dcs/dcc the wire was touching dcc wire and causing issues and the railking engine the wires in the engine with two wire nuts was not making a good connection causing taking off and no signal horn blow on both engines.  

Ron,

The symptoms that you're experiencing are the same as a known issue of which MTH is aware.

Ron, apparently this is common with PS3.  I suggest you do a conventional reset.  Have no other locos powered up.  Feed the loco direct from the transformer; do not have a TIU in the circuit.  Power up slowly and hold loco so it can't move.  Press whistle one and bell 5 times, all at 1/2 second intervals.  Timing is critical.  When successful, loco should respond with 2 toots.

I've had this happen to me.  MTH VP Strank gave me the solution.  It worked for me and for others.

Sitting here writing this, occurs to me that this might be easier to do with loco lying on its roof, with jumper cables to roller and frame.

Barry i hate to argue with you but mine was doing samething and MTH may not realize it. The wiring in the ps3 is sloppy. If he checks the wiring like i said it may take care of his problem and i sent my one premier engine to mth 4 times for signal issues and taking off and missing watch dog signal and horn sticking and i finally got tired of it found the wires touching each other on the dcs/dcc switch and it stopped doing that. Sameway with the railking engine two the wires was broken off twisted up so bad under wire nut.    

Ron,

The problem, when I can get it to replicate, occurs on these side tracks when power is instantly applied vice my main lines where the power is gradually risen to 18 volts.  I can't help but think that might be at least part of the issue.

Chessie,

I don't at all mind a discussion and I don't see your posts as arguing. However, the issue that Ron is seeing is not what you're seeing. His engines are simply missing the watchdog and coming up in conventional mode.

If you look at my post just before this one, you'll see that, depending on how he answers my question, what he's seeing may actually be normal behavior.

RJR... I will try the conventional reset as you describe.  In the mean time, I was able to video record the  engine on the whisker track taking off and on the main line behaving properly. 

Barry... The switch is post TIU.  When you say "normal behavior" I assume you mean a "known problem worth fixing".  This certainly would not be a normal operation.

I may incorporate a rotary dimmer switch on my control panel to simulate slowly working up to 18 volts.

Here is a video of the events.

Barry mine was missing the watch dog signal too and coming up in conventional and taking off then i would have to shut the transformer off to stop it but this is just recent when i found the wiring problem its something new after i fixed the wiring it stopped doing that.  This why i mentioned this.  

Hi RON045,

Have you tried not using your current on/off switches, and put the power directly with a wire on the track ? (i.e. "simulate" the on/off switch manually)

This is just a "theory", but it could be a side effect of "bouncing contacts" on your current on/off switches.

Hope this could help,

Daniel

Ron,

The switch is post TIU.  When you say "normal behavior" I assume you mean a "known problem worth fixing".  

No, that's not the case at all. You're engine is acting just as it was designed to act.

What you're doing is turning on power to the siding after that TIU channel's watchdog signal has come and gone. The watchdog appears at a channel's outputs whenever the voltage at the output terminals of a TIU channel goes up from zero.

 When you turn on power to the TIU channel to which your switched-off siding is connected, the watchdog is sent for 5 seconds. If you later turn on the toggle switch to power the channel, the engine will come up in conventional mode  since the watchdog signal has come and gone.

If you then want to operate the engine under DCS, just select the engine int he remote and press Startup. If not, press Shut Down.

This and a whole lot more is all in “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition", available for purchase  from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at OGR’s web store!

OK... Normal to "start" conventional I will agree.  Normal to take off at 90 mph... No.  My PS2 engines don't do that.  My PS3 engines should not do it either.

Ron

Ron,

Are your PS3 engines still in conventional mode when they take off? If so, that's because they're getting 18 volts in conventional mode. If that's the case, they are, again, acting as they were designed to do.

However, if they take off when in DCS mode, after a successful Startup command, then, I agree, there's a problem with the engine, however, not with DCS.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Ron,

Are your PS3 engines still in conventional mode when they take off? If so, that's because they're getting 18 volts in conventional mode. If that's the case, they are, again, acting as they were designed to do.

However, if they take off when in DCS mode, after a successful Startup command, then, I agree, there's a problem with the engine, however, not with DCS.

They are in conventional mode.  But even when a PS engine starts in conventional mode it starts in neutral.  Right? 

In the video the SD70 takes off in reverse.  And it does not do it 100% of the time.  Sometimes it will start in conventional mode in neutral.  So far it has never raced forward.

Ron

I had exactly the same problem with a PS3 engine. It would sometimes do it on normal DCS startup next to two other engines that started silent. Sent mine to GGG and I haven't had it happen again. It still seems to not play well with an MTH lighted dummy. I'm still experimenting to narrow it down. It is very difficult to do the reset when it is running in reverse, even slowed down with voltage. I could get the two toots with the TIU in the system, though. Reset is easy if you get it to neutral.

Ron045 posted:

They are in conventional mode.  But even when a PS engine starts in conventional mode it starts in neutral.  Right? 

 

Ron045,

I do exactly what you do all the time with my PS3 engines, and yes, they start in conventional and neutral.

They stay in neutral, unless the power is interrupted and put back quickly.  Then they go out of neutral and run full speed (i.e. in conventional with power on tracks)

Power glitches, unstable power or "Bouncing Contacts" on your on/off switches could potentially cause that.  See my question on my earlier post.

Daniel

Taking off is not normal  whether in conventional or command mode.   period.

. 

Ron, Gregg is correct.  Somehow, a PS3 loco can get locked in conventional neutral or conventional in one direction.  May not do it all the time, for some reason.  Have you tried the conventional reset yet?

I never had the problem with a PS2; only my PS3 MU cars when they were new.

I may incorporate a rotary dimmer switch on my control panel to simulate slowly working up to 18 volts.

Ron, not necessary.  I often turn on power to a block long after the watchdog has prowled the layout.  That applies 17-18 volts immediately, and the locos don't take off (except the one occasion when it needed reset.

The easy test is to place the engine on a conventional track and power up.  IF it starts moving and starts up, it is locked in a direction.  Unlock conventionally.  Move to your track.  If it misses the watch dog and starts up, it should not move. Just be running in neutral.  If already in remote either press startup to regain control or shutdown if you want it dark and quiet.

One thing to do is run it and do a Track signal strength test.  If it is lower than other engines, some wiring harness manipulation inside engine may be necessary and/or clean wheels and pickup rollers.  

You can also check the DCS/DCC switch making sure it is a 0 ohm connection.  I actually test at the wire harness pin 1 and 40.  That makes sure you have continuity from both wires to the switch and back.  Grounding those 2 pins is what places board in DCS mode.  Open is DCC mode.   So a broken or bad switch could cause DCS issues.  G

Gregg,

Taking off is not normal  whether in conventional or command mode.   period.

Thats n's exactly correct.

If a DCS engine comes up in conventional mode, it should be in neutral. However, if the toggle switch off/on is repeated, it will start moving at track power, in conventional mode.

If, as has happened with a number of PS3 engines, the engine is locked in reverse for conventional operation, it will move out at track voltage speed in reverse.

The first part, coming up in conventional/neutral when missing the watchdog, is normal behavior. The second part, starting to move when the switch is flipped off and then on again, is also normal behavior.

The abnormality is if the engine takes off in reverse in conventional immediately upon receiving power in the absence of a watchdog signal. That indicates, as Robert noted above, that a conventional (transformer) reset is needed.

I'm pretty sure he is not flipping the switch twice. I sure didn't and the engine did just what his is doing. If you watch, it doesn't immediately take off in reverse, it jerks forward first. I would do the reset and the next time I started it on a siding it would go off backwards again.

Conventional Reset. 1 Whitle, 5 Bells was the fix.  The engine now behaves when the toggles switch is turned on.  If I do not hit start on the DCS remote in 5 seconds, then it starts conventionally in neutral.

THANKS ALL!!!

Ron

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Gregg,

Taking off is not normal  whether in conventional or command mode.   period.

Thats n's exactly correct.

If a DCS engine comes up in conventional mode, it should be in neutral. However, if the toggle switch off/on is repeated, it will start moving at track power, in conventional mode.

If, as has happened with a number of PS3 engines, the engine is locked in reverse for conventional operation, it will move out at track voltage speed in reverse.

The first part, coming up in conventional/neutral when missing the watchdog, is normal behavior. The second part, starting to move when the switch is flipped off and then on again, is also normal behavior.

The abnormality is if the engine takes off in reverse in conventional immediately upon receiving power in the absence of a watchdog signal. That indicates, as Robert noted above, that a conventional (transformer) reset is needed.

 OK lets try this again.... A ps-2 or 3 engine should start up in neutral in conventional mode, (no toggles anywhere)  Make you wonder.. Why are some of these new PS-3 engines locked in a directional state?

Not sure if this is related, but in my unofficial local observations, any "issues" I have which require resets seem to always be after we use an engine as part of a lashup and then later try to use the engine all by itself.

My son has this SD70 PS3 he likes to lash with a PS2 engine.  The other PS3 engine GP30 he lashes with  a PS2 GP35.

Again, it seems like we reset the PS3's quite a bit after using them in lashups with PS2's because of various operational issues.

But maybe they are "acting as they are designed to do".

Ron

Ron, the reverse runaway happened to me on a new PS3, that had never been in a lashup.