Purchased my first Postwar Locomotive

I have all 4 turbines and they are smooth and quiet.  The commutator and e unit might need cleaned occasionally and you take out 3 screws and lift the shell off the chassis. Eventually it might need grease. I would check that as soon as you can. they aren't difficult to work on. Welcome to the club-you are hooked !!

now you've done it, there's no turning back now. great engine...post up some pics!

"Any good tips..."

Kalmbach/Greenberg have several books on Lionel postwar. I would suggest "Repair and Operating Manual for Lionel Trains 1945-1969."

There are also a few good internet sites that allow for downloading of schematics, diagrams, etc...

Have fun with your new purchase, you can always make room for a 682 or 671 in the near future.

Visit the Olsen's free library. Essentially, it is the Lionel factory service manual with additional information developed by the folks at Olsens.

Here is the beginning of the basic information on Lionel motors.

Lionel did not produce documentation for every item. Here is information on a similar turbine, it is probably the closest.

There is a lot of good information on the site. Sometimes it takes a bit of digging to find it.

Take it back and buy an MPC 8404 Pennsy S2.  I think it looks and runs better.  Probably also in better condition and costs less.

What, me worry? 

I'll second the Repair and Operating manual for Lionel Trains 1945-1969. It's a valuable resource for postwar equipment.

Sounds like you have a great operating engine. I've got a 2020 that runs well, but not as good as what you describe. A couple years ago I worked on a co-workers 671, and it was a great runner. With a little routine maintenance, your engine will run well for decades to come.

If I may make a suggestion, consider an early 675/2025 for your next purchase. Properly tuned, they are the "Swiss Watch" of postwar Lionel. Very quiet, a lot of side rod action, nice smoke output, will coast to a stop, and fun to listen to the "tink-tink" sound of the smoke unit.  

675/2025, 2055/2065 are all good but my favorite is my 736.  All you hear are the wheels on the track. Not cheap, though.

I started laughing when I got to your comment "it runs really well".  You may have discovered the delight of quality postwar trains.  The F3's, FM's, and early NW-2 switchers are awesome runners as well.  I prefer the 736, 2046, &773 for pulling power in steam engines.  I had a 671 as a child which doesn't have magnatraction and didn't pull that well.  Your 681 is a step up and you got the good tender.  

Some of the high end mpc engines are very nice engines.   Most of the stuff sells for a fraction of the prices in the 90's.   But if you need the electronics you will be disappointed.

I've had a 671 for a long time now. runs great, but has some wheel slip. I got my Uncle's 2020 after he passed, and no slip at all. I pulled the shell off to oil and clean, and it has the optional weight.

Take it back and buy an MPC 8404 Pennsy S2.  I think it looks and runs better.  Probably also in better condition and costs less.

From what I see an MPC 8404 turbine in nice shape goes for more than a 2020 or a 671. Probably about the same as a 681. The 682 is usually more.

I like turbines, I have several, including the 8404.
The only thing I don't like about it is the FARR logo on the tender.
Otherwise, the paint scheme is great.

All the postwar models run well.
My 8404 is still mint.

Welcome to the Postwar club. I use to have a 681 but sold it like a dumb dumb about 5 years ago. I presently have three 736's, three 2025's, four 675's, two 2055's and love them all. as for my big steam by Lionel. Yes I have modern engines with command in them and conventional modern engines but weather it be Steam or Diesel I prefer post war I guess because that's what I grew up with. 

Yes I understand the newer ones have all this and that but the postwar/prewar ( yes I have a few of them also ) I can go in there and know what I'm doing. I've never been real strong in electronics so this is great. I have a little of both. 

Here is a quick photo and video thanks to iPhone!

I can only see the top edge of your video.

C W Burfle posted:

I can only see the top edge of your video.

Click the thumbnail under the post. Sometimes videos seem to cut off on the forum here. Not sure why. I see it often with other posts. 

It sounds like you got a good engine. How well they run will depend on how much play time they have had in the past. Most all ran very smooth when new. The best runners were the pre magnatraction engines from the '40s but they will not pull as many cars as the later ones which tend to be noisier for some reason.

A few tips.

Olsen's has a library which has service diagrams of  most every Lionel Post war piece. Among other things they show the proper part numbers you can use when looking for parts like your headlight lens.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd1.htm

You don't want to put tape on your switches, rather you want to tape over the pick up shoe on the tender. Too bad Ross switches and Post War don't mix. I would suggest thin mylar tape rather than electrical tape after cleaning the shoe to remove and grease or oil.

Have fun.

Pete

My 671 turbine has the twin shafts and is the noisiest of all mine. The 681,682 and 2020 are smooth and quiet. I don't get too uptight about pulling power because I don't run real long consists with any of my  engines. They are old and baby them a bit.  With my Zephyr I only run with 2 cars, the other car sits on the shelf. Plus my straights are only about 8 feet long.

Welcome to the Post-War World, SJC.  I know you will enjoy your turbine. I know College Park is one of your favorite Tracker shows, but I don't think you were there on the day last December when I had my 681 (and 2046) out on the layout.  So, here's the 681 on a mixed freight.

SJC, my 681 was never the best smoker, so a few years ago I tried installing a fan-driven smoke unit that I bought from the late Boxcar Bill. It is great at higher voltage, but as you can see from the previous post of the College Park video, not the best at speed either. When i first installed it, I made this clip.

Great at high voltage standing, never has been this good at speed, though.

For a first PW engine you choose a good one. They are good runners/pullers and very easy to service. if you open er up pop the shiny metal cap off and re-lube with fresh grease. In fact you should check it anyway.

Jim 1939 posted:

For a first PW engine you choose a good one. They are good runners/pullers and very easy to service. if you open er up pop the shiny metal cap off and re-lube with fresh grease. In fact you should check it anyway.

+1 to that. 

The OP said "It was gone through before I bought it," but didn't go into details.   If his dealer hasn't already cleaned and lubed the locomotive, that should be the first priority.  In fact, it should be the first priority in any case.

Yes, postwar is great!

Get to know your new pal, and as a little time goes by, you'll know what it really needs. Once that's done, it will likely out live you. It doesn't need constant attention, but you need to get familiar with yours, and it's easier than it may sound. That said, likely no big hurry on a lot of the following, but good to read it over if you don't have a manual yet.

1. Warmth is normal; on long sessions the frame might get downright hot.
2. yep, brushes spark some, more below on those.
3. They do use more juice, and hold less smoke fluid. If it "leaks" its overfull,( or needs a chamber inspection).
4. Reversing blows the whistle? more below.
5. Uncoupling, more below

The crash coarse-

     Inside, the e-unit's toggle just slides on a fiber board, and contacts a small rivet for "on".   As you move the lever, feel for a bump as the contact centers itself over the rivet; its on. Loose ones can be tweaked for firmer contact that wont "jump around", but that can usually wait for when you have it apart.

  Today-lube any truck slide plates. Oil the roller arm pivots. Clean wheels and rollers on the outside with some alcohol or Naptha (watch the paint). If the roller axle looks dirty, clean that and flush the hole/axle to see what come out, but think about "conductive lube" or thinner oil on the roller's axle-pin after! Also oil the rod journals, smoke piston pivots, etc..basically anything that moves; like all of your axles and gear shafts, then set it on a towel overnight at a slight side angle, and re-wipe the bottom the next day (30w motor oil is ideal). "Clean it like a soldier cleaned his Garand".

   Since its old, check your driven axles for play (should be like the undriven ones). Bushings (cheap) do get worn over time (into ovals). Inspect gears & their shafts for the same thing too. Any of those being worn will increase noise some, but likely will run for many years till you're ready.

  I think that is worm drive so grease the worm! The rest still applies though the descriptions are a little off from worm drive.  

  If its grubby black underneath (axles etc), clean with Q-tips, and repeat oiling often for a while. The oil will carry the dirt out of cracks, so stay with it, and eventually the crud becomes very minimal &/or "disappears".

 Use duct tape to remove anything stuck by Magne-traction.

     Sometime very soon, you should inspect the brushes. They are just small graphite cylinders, a buck or two a pair. Lift those little springs or remove the caps, point the headlight up, and tap the cover till they fall out They should be flat where they contact the armature plates, and if still long enough, you can dress the tips with fine sandpaper too.

    If it starts to run "funny", balks, or stalls, clean the brushes & brush holders, pull the motor cap off and clean the gaps between the armature plates (tooth brush or similar, I lightly drag a pin point though the gaps). If the plates are smooth you can clean the plates with a pencil eraser, if grooved smooth it with fine sandpaper (and clean the grit & residue away). Don't get windings or paint wet with it, but alcohol on a q-tip cleans well, &/or buy some "safe for windings and  plastic" electrical cleaner (great for e-unit cleaning or flushing axles etc., if really dirty, re-oil).

    Still runs funny?, check the "fingers" and "drum" on the e-unit for heat discoloration, springiness, pressure, or old, dried, lumpy, grease that might prevent the fingers from contacting well.  Clean &/or rebuild it.

    Opinions do vary on the next bit. Some folks use "tons" of oil, and clean often enough for it not to mater. I like a dry armature as I feel excess oil retains brush dust, which can bridge the plate gaps, and cause running issues. Oil on the brush plate's side of shafts should be used very sparingly because it t will creep to, and then run across, the spinning plates (by centrifugal force). 

    The whistle motor also has brushes & an armature, and should be taken care of in a similar manner. And yes it will need a tiny drop of oil on the armature shaft (or its felt oil wick(?)). Getting the bottom shaft by the impeller is important too.

 The whistle activating in reverse could be a few things, a fray on a wire, cold solder (a solder crack you often can't see), dirty rollers, dirty wheels, brushes tips worn at an angle, a relay in need of a better "common" or "hot" connection, or just a tweak of the relay arm (try last). To isolate the cause, try running it behind another train, or pushing it around (backwards and fwd.) by hand to see if it still does that. It may also stop doing this as you run it more, and aged metal to metal contact points become cleaner, & fresher from friction.

 If the tenders coupler is a shoe type, inspect the shoe and wire, and check that the coupler assembly isn't loose. On the shoe, there should be two ridges that sit higher than the contact rivet. Replace the shoe if worn, or tape it, or the offending track spot. You could also use a later truck there, "customize" the couplers firing,  or simply disconnect the coupler wire, and just rely on the cars to uncouple it. On occasion, flipping a shoe works for issues.

If it isn't a shoe type, there is a pin on the underside of the coupler that may be tweaked, worn, or the notch it sits in may be worn. Easy to replace the moving jaw on most knuckle couplers, but I never did an electric version. I just replaced the whole thing with a new coil & knuckle, or added the later magnetic type truck.

Here's a quick video of my 681 and 2332 postwar sets. Postwar at its finest!

franktrain

franktrain posted:

Here's a quick video of my 681 and 2332 postwar sets. Postwar at its finest!

franktrain

 But you have the wrong type of track it should be O or at least O-27 ( just had to say it. they look great no matter what track you use. 

rtraincollector posted:

franktrain posted:

Here's a quick video of my 681 and 2332 postwar sets. Postwar at its finest!

 

 

 But you have the wrong type of track it should be O or at least O-27 ( just had to say it. they look great no matter what track you use. 

Well, yes and no. I know this isn't Gargraves but they were around long before Post War trains. 

Pete

Appreciate the overwhelming, positive response to this! After running it a bit, I've decided to have my local tech give it a total once over. Lubricate and service all points, clean all areas and give it a good going-over to help it provide years of happy service. The biggest thing I'm planning on doing - rewire the entire engine and tender. It may not need it but personally, I want new wiring in there. The motor seems to make an occasionally squeal but nothing major, probably just needs a little TLC. It has been such a fun little engine to run for the past few days!

Adriatic - thanks for the lengthy "to do" list. As mentioned above, I'm planning to give the engine a good once-over and rewiring. As I learn about these things, your post will come in handy. I will actually print it out for future reference. 

Bill - my 681 seems to smoke like a champ with 5 or 6 drops of Mega Steam or MTH Fluid. 

Anyone able to tell me when the 681 was from? I've seen various dates ranging from 1947-1952. Would love to narrow it down. Just wish I could learn who had this years ago!

A couple reasons why the tender may sound off when going into reverse; 1) you have a modern transformer(ZW-C or ZW-L) instead of a post war transformer like the post war ZW or KW, 2) dirty track will cause a whistling tender to sound off without any whistle signal being given.

Lee Fritz

try going over it yourself. there's not an easier steam engine to do. 

I want new wiring in there.

Why? As I recall, Lionel used cloth covered wire with pushback insulation in the 681 and most other steam engines of the period. It is very uncommon to see degraded wire in a Lionel steam engine, with the possible exception of the headlamp wire.
The pickup roller wires (not cloth covered) on the tender are usually bad, they may have been replaced already.
If the wires are degraded, then certainly they should be replaced. But if they are OK......

As someone recently said to me: a item is only original once.

Of course, it is your locomotive to do with as you wish.

Anyone able to tell me when the 681 was from? I've seen various dates ranging from 1947-1952.

It was introduced in 1950.
Lionel did not make magnetraction engines in 1952 due to a materials shortage. No magnets were available. They made the 671RR, which was a 681 without magnetation.
The 681 returned in 1953.
In 1954 the 682 replaced the 681.

So the years are: 1950, 1951, 1953 for the 681.

Look here: 681

C W Burfle posted:

As someone recently said to me: a item is only original once.

 

Need to remember that line next time  a headlight bulb needs replacement.  

Appreciate the continued replies. 

Why have someone do it? Convenience as I work very lengthy hours. I don't doubt my ability to do it myself but at this time, I want someone else to do it. One day I want to sit down and really dive into an engine (maybe the next Postwar loco? ) and do it all myself but right now, I just want it done for me. Happy to pay for it also. 

I want it to be original. I wouldn't count out a full blown cosmetic restoration at some point in the future but for now, all original. The only obvious cosmetic detail I plan to change is the headlight lens as it is a little fogged and cracked. . I will try to retain the original for future use.  

I can understand the lengthy hours thing and you are correct.  There will be another one you can work when you aren't pressed for time. It does make the time fly by.

Need to remember that line next time  a headlight bulb needs replacement.  

I don't get it. Can you explain?

you cant go wrong buying Postwar

Bob C.

You can never go wrong with buying postwar. Bob C above has the right idea. Congrats on the purchase and if you like do what I did. Have separate era layouts.

C W Burfle posted:

Need to remember that line next time  a headlight bulb needs replacement.  

I don't get it. Can you explain?

Once the headlight is replaced on "train A", it is no longer 100% original.

  Even though it is normally considered "no big deal, it can be a big deal in the high end of grading.

   Train A is only 99.8% original (8+) vs 100% original (9+ ) for an identical looking "train B" with its original light bulb.

 Wiring falls into that grey area too. So don't fix what isn't broke . Unless you just don't give a rat's tail, and want it done "because" .  Cloth wire is very heat and abrasion resistant.

A Reminder SJC: You could likely go years without improving it mechanically. I can be a stickler for a 100% rebuild, or just as fast be willing to wing it. Oil should be done often anyhow, new or old. Brushes should be checked every so often like you check fluids for your car. They really are near bullet proof compared to some new stuff.

Take some time to peek at things yourself anyhow, so if your repair man does do a bushing, coupler, or similar you will know what a bad one feels like, and good when it returns. Ask about why he chooses the repairs he does.  Pay for the fine tooth combing sure, but inspect what was done, and then have fun noting run differences.

   Even easier, even cheaper, for a first timer, would be a little 4 driver motor.  For the price of a working MPC, or Marx, any pro-repair work will likely cost more than its "worth" anyhow, no great loss if you screw up.

  If you were confident you could do what was listed and enjoy it, your probably going to like PW a bunch for long term use.

$20 Tinplate 0-4-0 next? No hurry, just something to tinker with when bored.

  It's all about the AC open frame motors "feel"& sounds of the E-unit together,   and even smell of ozone from brush sparks and smoke, that captivates most pre/post war fans. All trains have their pro's and cons and the fun just varies with your running style .

Once the headlight is replaced on "train A", it is no longer 100% original.

  Even though it is normally considered "no big deal, it can be a big deal in the high end of grading.

   Train A is only 99.8% original (8+) vs 100% original (9+ ) for an identical looking "train B" with its original light bulb.

LOL, maybe that's why some of us like to have NOS made in USA bulbs with the proper base (brass or steel) by Westinghouse or GE on hand.
But if the item was used enough to burn out a light bulb, it isn't likely to be in the absolute top condition. I suppose the bulb could be physically damaged, but what sort of accident would be limited to the bulb?

I had one fellow repair person tell me he had customers who wanted their e-unit drums replaced with one of the proper color.  (I care whether they are original or repro on better pieces).

Every thing is a matter of opinion / preference.
I made my comment to the original poster, SJC because he is new to postwar.

Light bulbs are replaced when they are bad.
People convert Postwar locomotives to electronic control for enhanced operation.
Bad wiring needs to be replaced.

But I just don't understand the benefit to replacing good wire.
I know they make reproduction cloth covered wire. None of the stuff I've seen really looks like the original.

Over the years I've done things to train items now and then that I wouldn't do today

I don't mean to tell anybody else what they should do with their trains. So I apologize if anything I've written is seen as a negative, or diminishes anybody's pleasure in any way.

We are all in this for different reasons. I learned early on that there are "purists" that don't want to change anything in their engines. I'm a modifier (with PW stuff). If I can make it look better, or run better, I don't hesitate to make modifications to do just that. I figure......I bought it, it's mine, I can do what I like with it. When I first got back into trains, I bought a 736 from a guy whose Ebay self descriptions paint him as the greatest thing since sliced bread and a true PW savior. Shortly after I bought it, I told him (on the phone) that I had replaced the headlight bulb with an LED. Well, he started screaming at me. Literally. Told me I ruined the engine and I just as well could have painted the cab red. I thought that was a "bit" over the top and he told me not to buy anything from him again. That was not going to be a problem because also in that phone call, I told him that the engine had a "hitch" in it at slow speeds. He told me.....impossible......he tested it for hours before sending it out. Turned out.....the engine had a bent axle. 

I do have some PW stuff I don't modify. There are some engines that are worth quite a bit more than most of the others and it matters. Very few in that category.

Have fun with it regardless of what you decide to do with/to it.

Roger

The different views ran deep with passion over repairs and "responsible ownership for many decades.

   The passions of early tin collectors seeing the now super rare items "abused" with repaints in the 40s- 60's, sort of repeats the "it's only original once" theory.

It helped form the backbones of goals within our bigger train "associations and societies".

  How can you be sure your less than perfect loco won't be the last surviving loco in 100 years? You can't. But if in the conversion process can be reversed by saving parts and not over modding, that's a decent second best. Turning some junk  among  the gems into a "near new" working example is much more noble, but still a "gamble". Just my opinion.

   If I thought a buyer would drastically change a nice train in an irreversible way, I wouldn't sell it either. Neither would my Grandfather, or Great-Grandfather. But we would all modify "Junk". Other worse trains and nice parts to bash are out there and it's a more responsible approach to bash on junk; done right just as good an end product.  Same as saving an old building, car, or tree listed as an historical item. Just because you own it, you don't have a free and clear moral right to deny its existence to the rest of history just because you laid out some green paper for it.

    We should be the caregivers for the future, as much as we are the owners of today, just as the owners of the past did this for us

That' my story and I'm stickin' to it