R.O.W. (Right of Way) Pennsy T1 electrical issues

Do you have another transformer to test with, or any other locos with horn or bell that you could use to compare?  The Lionel 80-watt train set transformer doesn't have the best reputation; your transformer may be the culprit so I wouldn't start dissecting the loco just yet...

Was this locomotive working fine until recently with the same transformer? If you are talking about the CW-80 transformer, with its chopped wave output, that could account for performance issues.

Perhaps @Lou N knows if this problem is a power issue or a locomotive problem.

It sounds like the power supply is leaking voltage to the track even when the throttle is "off".  Try disconnecting the power leads between the transformer and the track.  If that is successful, it is the transformer. Some newer transformers do not use a mechanical sliding contact like the early Lionel transformers but use triacs or similar to control the power.  These can leak voltage which may be sufficient for the dolidstate reversing unit in the T1 from resetting.  Gunrunner John cab explain it much better.

Jan

@Jim R. posted:

Was this locomotive working fine until recently with the same transformer? If you are talking about the CW-80 transformer, with its chopped wave output, that could account for performance issues.

Perhaps @Lou N knows if this problem is a power issue or a locomotive problem.

Hi Jim,  Yes the loco did work fine most of the time.  It wasn't consistently great but most of the time it was OK.  Just this last time running it seemed to have real issues with the sounds and the lack of control over reverse and forward.  I have another transformer (CW 80?) like the first and tried the same thing and got similar results.  Interestingly, the other locos are still running fine with no issues.  I wonder if the sound board on the T1 is becoming more reactive to the choppy output of my transformers....

Roger

@Ted S posted:

Do you have another transformer to test with, or any other locos with horn or bell that you could use to compare?  The Lionel 80-watt train set transformer doesn't have the best reputation; your transformer may be the culprit so I wouldn't start dissecting the loco just yet...

Hi Ted,  YEs I did test with another power supply but unfortunately it is the same make and model so I got similar results.  Tried other locos and they seem to be OK.  I can forward and reverse just fine but the T1 is inconsistent; sometimes it will and sometimes it won't.

Roger

@Jan posted:

It sounds like the power supply is leaking voltage to the track even when the throttle is "off".  Try disconnecting the power leads between the transformer and the track.  If that is successful, it is the transformer. Some newer transformers do not use a mechanical sliding contact like the early Lionel transformers but use triacs or similar to control the power.  These can leak voltage which may be sufficient for the dolidstate reversing unit in the T1 from resetting.  Gunrunner John cab explain it much better.

Jan

HI Jan,

I think you may be right. Unfortunately, I only have another exact make and model power supply and I get similar results.  Other locos are not bothered by the power supplies.  I do notice that the direction buttons on both units do not change the direction on the T1.  I will have to try it out on the other locos.

Roger

Did you try physically disconnecting the transformer briefly to reverse?  That was a good suggestion, and it'll tell you if it's electronic leakage in your CW-80's.

The reverse unit in the T1 is from QSI.  I believe they were sensitive to chopped wave transformers.

The bell was triggered by a single push of the bell button and played for 8 seconds and then stopped.  Maybe the dc offset transistor for the bell has failed.

Lou N

Conjecture, hand-waving and head-scratching. The hallmarks of many electrical threads on this forum. Yes, I'm that old curmudgeon who always asks "Do you have a volt-ohm meter?"   Have you measured the output of the CW80 to see if it really does go to zero when turned down?

From the list of symptoms, in this case, I would probably say that there are other issues at work, but it doesn't hurt to start with the basics.

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

Conjecture, hand-waving and head-scratching. The hallmarks of many electrical threads on this forum. Yes, I'm that old curmudgeon who always asks "Do you have a volt-ohm meter?"   Have you measured the output of the CW80 to see if it really does go to zero when turned down?

From the list of symptoms, in this case, I would probably say that there are other issues at work, but it doesn't hurt to start with the basics.

HI Arthur!

Thanks for the friendly reminder to use my meter.  NO the voltage shows about 3 volts ac with the power fully turned down.  Neither of the CW80's go to zero when turned fully off.  So maybe the internals on the PRR T1 are too sensitive or something about the power supplies?

Roger

@Lou N posted:

The reverse unit in the T1 is from QSI.  I believe they were sensitive to chopped wave transformers.

The bell was triggered by a single push of the bell button and played for 8 seconds and then stopped.  Maybe the dc offset transistor for the bell has failed.

Lou N

Would there be an aftermarket chipset that could replace the electronics on the T1?  I'd also like to get the smoke unit working too.....  Thanks for the help!

Roger

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Did you try physically disconnecting the transformer briefly to reverse?  That was a good suggestion, and it'll tell you if it's electronic leakage in your CW-80's.

Hi gunrunnerjohn,  Yes I did try pulling one lead off the transformer and sometimes that would work and other times it wouldn't.  Maybe I need to pull both leads to get consistent operation?

Roger

One lead should have been sufficient.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

One lead should have been sufficient.

I retested the the one lead disconnect and reconnect and it seems to work reliably.  I wonder if I put a simple SPST switch on one lead would that solve my problem with that engine?

@Lou N posted:

The reverse unit in the T1 is from QSI.  I believe they were sensitive to chopped wave transformers.

The bell was triggered by a single push of the bell button and played for 8 seconds and then stopped.  Maybe the dc offset transistor for the bell has failed.

Lou N

Is there a way to identify that transistor and replace it or will I need to find a whole new should board?

I believe QSI is still in business.  O-scale, not a major part of their business.   Try a search. 

@Roger Elliott posted:

Is there a way to identify that transistor and replace it or will I need to find a whole new should board?

The sound unit is also provides regulated supplies for 1.5Vdc grain of rice marker light bulbs and 5Vdc for the smoke unit.  There is no drop in replacement for this circuit.  Maybe the switch under the pilot has the smoke turned off.  This was the first use of SMT (surface mount technology) for model train sound systems.  I no longer have the component layouts. 

Remember this is over 30 years old.  You would need a sound system and regulated supplies.  Not sure what product to direct you to.

Maybe GRJ has some thoughts.

Lou N

@Lou N posted:

The sound unit is also provides regulated supplies for 1.5Vdc grain of rice marker light bulbs and 5Vdc for the smoke unit.  There is no drop in replacement for this circuit.  Maybe the switch under the pilot has the smoke turned off.  This was the first use of SMT (surface mount technology) for model train sound systems.  I no longer have the component layouts.

Remember this is over 30 years old.  You would need a sound system and regulated supplies.  Not sure what product to direct you to.

Maybe GRJ has some thoughts.

Lou N

Hi Lou,

Thanks for your reply.  I understand the age issue of this loco.  I did manage to get the smoke working so at least that is functional.  The constant bell issue goes away by turning off the sound.  And today it behaved itself by changing direction properly without me having to disconnect power wires.  So that's good, but given the age issue I am thinking of doing a TMCC conversion with an ERR board in the future.  I've had to convert a few non-functioning locos this way for my son.

Roger

@Roger Elliott posted:

Hi Lou,

Thanks for your reply.  I understand the age issue of this loco.  I did manage to get the smoke working so at least that is functional.  The constant bell issue goes away by turning off the sound.  And today it behaved itself by changing direction properly without me having to disconnect power wires.  So that's good, but given the age issue I am thinking of doing a TMCC conversion with an ERR board in the future.  I've had to convert a few non-functioning locos this way for my son.

Roger

Keep in mind that you will still need a supply for the lamps and smoke unit.

Command control has become quite a complicated mess.  I'm actually thinking of running some equipment on straight DC.

Lou N

A friend had a similar problem with a Legacy engine. Transformer leaking voltage. Put a passenger car with incandescent lights in it on track, and see if problem goes away. What we found, and what Lionel support recommended when we wanted to let Lionel know what we found.

If this fixes your problem, then you need to power something with an incandescent bulb(s) as well as the track. Could be an accessory, or just a bulb/socket you wire in. LED may not work as resistance could be to high to drop leaking voltage.