Rare, Vintage Trains

That's the problem with Ebay, Pawn Stars and American Pickers. Everybody now thinks their items are "rare" and worth a mint. And when you tell them they aren't, they just think you're trying to rip them off.

This bugs me too.  When I see "rare" on a listing that I know is not rare, my reaction is to distrust the seller.  I once saw "rare" listed on O22 switches - there must be hundreds of thousands of them.

 

Bill

Nah, that whole phenomenon came about long before ebay, pawn stars, and american pickers...

 

Frankly they can bandy about all the buzzwords they want. What matters is price. If they claim rare and price it as rare, and it isn't, I walk away. Trying to educate them is akin to mud wrestling a pig.

Items were "rare" before the ebay, the tech era and reality TV such as storage wars, when the only way you found items were at the local flea market, antique, second hand shop or paper print listing. I have loads of stuff that prior to the tech era were valued in Kovels and other antique value books at 10 times more than the value now because that hard to find or "Rare" item is listed 10 times on ebay or multiple sites. Now "rare" is only really rare to those who now the specifics of certain items.

IMHO, anybody who blindly trusts a sellers description as to the rarity or desirability of an item is foolish.

While the internet and EBay in particular have made it possible to locate items that were very difficult to find, it did not create any new trains.

There are trains and closely related items that are difficult to find, desirable, and even rare. (Rare being a relative term).

 

While at the train show in MA I saw a 1060 in the same shape as mine with a price tag of $25 without the tender. I got mine with it's tender for $10 last year. The seller was a young kid maybe younger than me. I wanted to say its not worth the $25. It's just a basic scout locomotive. He must have thought it was worth so much since being post war. I went by his booth about twenty minutes before the show was to end on Sunday the 1060 was still there. Too many people think just because it's old the trains are worth millions.

The one I saw on Ebay said,"rare MTH factory prototype, $39.95 Buy It Now"

 

Jerry

quote:

I went by his booth about twenty minutes before the show was to end on Sunday the 1060 was still there. Too many people think just because it's old the trains are worth millions.

 

I am not saying what a 1060 is worth, but just because it was unsold at the end of the show does not mean the seller won't get his $25 at the next show. Most folks think that I price my stuff attractively. Yet I still bring things home after every show

 

If you picked up a nice 1060 with the correct tender for $10, you got a bargain.

Rare is a big red flag to me... as soon as an item is posted as rare, I leave it.

"Very Rare" Marx Manual switches...

 

 

"Impossible to find this extremely rare Right switch."

 

"You can buy this item on eBay right now! Just select the "Buy it Now" tab."

Rare MTH??????

MTH hasn't been around long enough to have rare!!!!!!!!!!

I've been watching for a 665/2065 lately. Seen an average price as far as those without tenders,with, with/without boxes,etc. I saw one recently, with an asking for just the locomotive, no box, for more than one recently went with the tender and boxes. I politely contacted the seller, and as friendly as I could suggested that he may want to research his price. He replied "well my BIN is what the price guide says it's worth".......

The temptation to contact a seller with overpriced stuff is something that probably should be resisted.  It either sells or it doesn't, but the seller is entitled to his or her opinion.

 

That's my opinion.  In 2-rail we routinely see stuff priced at orders of magnitude more than market, and once in a while somebody bites.  That's the free market at work.

It was a bargain but don't run it that much still a nice one though. The seller also had some things in a junk bin no price on them. If it's one thing I have learned is, if its not priced. I won't play "the what do you think it's worth game".

Far too many sellers go by what the guide guide says for a mint in condition locomotive even when the seller's locomotive or car is in well used condition.

Hard to figure out why there was no bidders on this one ?

 

 

Unfortunately, my "local" hobby shop is a 250 mile roundtrip. As a result, what little buying I do is on the internet, often Ebay. I've just come to ignore all of those superlatives: pristine, vintage, rare, prototype, etc. I often wonder if the people bandying these terms around have ever picked up a dictionary to see what the words actually mean.

 

Having said that, there was only one item I got off of Ebay that was not as described, and I was able to use it for another project. And only once have I been "burned" by something that was less than what it's description indicated. I'm still figuring out what to do with it. 

 

It's just a case of buyer beware. Check out everything you can and don't be afraid to ask questions. If the seller is reluctant to give a straight answer, then he won't be selling to me.

 

quote:

It was a bargain but don't run it that much still a nice one though. The seller also had some things in a junk bin no price on them. If it's one thing I have learned is, if its not priced. I won't play "the what do you think it's worth game".

 

If there is something that I am interested in purchasing that is either unpriced, or slightly overpriced, I tell the seller that I don't know the book value, but here is what it is worth to me. (I really don't know the book value, I have not purchased a price guide in a very long time).

Ive got two of those 2065s.

my 1rst was my 1rst Lionel. picked it

up at a TCA show in Niagara Falls about 25

years ago for $150 w/ tender.

the 2nd I picked up at Antique World in

Clarence New York for $80 w/ tender.

they both run well.

 

You hit on one of my biggest pet peeves.  I just move on.....Greg

I always offer $5 or less for stuff in boxes under the table, because 9 times

outta 10, the dealer will take the cash because he doesn't want to lug the stuff home.

When I was totally new to O gauge trains I went to a nearby TCA show.  I was mainly looking for O-31 track, O22 switches, and a Lionel Lines porthole caboose, but when I recognized some 665/2065 on a couple tables I stopped to inquire.  In each instance the seller whipped out that dam price guide and quoted the highest listed price for their borderline abused pretty rough examples.  My O gauge experience to that time consisted of picking up an occasional issue of the klassic (mumble) magazine, but fortunately instinct prevailed and I thanked them and moved on.  As I see it, all these "rare" items have two prices:  priced to sell, and priced to keep.

 

Pete

Often "rarity" is a product of its availability in any given setting.  For example, I once attended a local estate auction that had a rare Civil War bayonet for sale.  It was not "rare" at all but a standard issue Springfield .58 cal. one.  It was full of rust, too.   A couple of people engaged in a bidding war for this item.  The following week, I went to the Gettysburg relic show where the vendors there had scores of bayonets on display--in really nice shape, too.  I picked one up for 1/3 of what the winning bidder had to pay for the rusty one in my hometown the week before.

That is SO true! 

 

All the above is preaching to the choir info, if you've been in trains longer than ten

minutes.  I learned that preaching to those with astonomical numbers, and dollar signs in their eyes, on common goods would win no converts when I first discovered eBay. I also learned that stuff that was hard to find, and thought rare, with all the old methods, was there in quantity and a case of, "Let's, see, which one looks the best

condition that I can get for the least bucks?"  I am tempted to email seller and state

that his doflammie is worth nowhere near his opening bid....but I now remember it is

a waste of time.  I haven't bought a price guide in years.....I found prices therein

inflated, and irrelevant when you are trying to negotiate a purchase.  I set a price to sell and that is my price....if I want what you have, I will try to get a better price, and

IF I want it bad enough, I might pay your price, if I can't get it at mine, and think it

might be a while before I found another cheaper.

Ive got two of those 2065s.

 

 

sure...rub it in!

I buy it once every ten years just for historical reference.

Along with 'Rare', I think 'Mint' is another one to watch for. I visit my LHS weekly. Besides selling new trains, they also buy and sell vintage trains, postwar and prewar. About every 3rd or 4th visit someone comes in with a box or sack of Lionel trains that they think is worth millions. Usually the LHS owner tells them about all he could use them for is parts to fix up other trains and he does not want them. Many leave quite disappointed. There are some that they do buy, but usually for very little money as they have to clean and repair them and still try to make a profit on re-selling them. 'Mint' might be another 'sales' term to watch out for?  

This is probably one of those situations where the wife says he has too many trains and needs to sell some off, so he says he'll put them on eBay.....

[quote] I picked up at Antique World in Clarence New York for $80 w/ tender []/quote]

 

While its been years since I've been to Antique World, I did pick up some neat things there. I purchased a mint 1960's scout set at one of their periodic antique shows. The rest of the items were not train related.

IMO, The word "RARE" should be replaced by the statement " not often sold" -  I say this because the main road name I collect is Westinghouse and it seems every time an item appears on an auction site or even a private sale the prices are well above any similar car with a different road name. So because the road name is not often sold, people will over bid or over price their items.    ROCK>me<HARDPLACE

 

quote:I think Rare and vintage are used all to

often

Along with the word Great!

I once saw a hot wheel listed as one of a kind but the seller had two of them for sale.

Scarce, unusual and "tough to find" now seem to be the go to words for the big auction houses to replace "rare"...

I recently came upon a bunch of unboxed and badly beaten newer (2000's) Lionel trains in including a Harry Potter set in a "Antique" store being advertised as 1950's vintage.They wanted $275! The lady told me they were made in the USA in the 1950's. I told here how can that be?? I then showed her that the everything she had was made in China and that JK Rowling wasn't even born until 1965. The look on her face-PRICELESS! Still in there last time I looked.

Yep, there's rare and priceless stuff everywhere, but sometimes I think folks will just assume without verifying anything.

#1: I once contacted an Ebay seller who had no other trains listed and seemed to be a genuine "flea market" seller. I mentioned that their listing of "rare antique tin litho streetcar" was actually a Bing passenger car fitted with maybe a more modern Lionel power truck and home-made trolley pole.

#2 : I found a 4-piece-boiler Flyer Atlantic basket case at a flea market once, for a decent price and the seller threw in a pre-war Flyer transformer for nothing when I explained what it actually was. Sometimes sellers appreciate an honest buyer I guess.

#3: The same week I saw an "antique" Lionel FA diesel in my local Sally Ann listed in their auction lot, not the regular store. There were bids up to $50 already, and it had been painted and then crudely lettered with nail varnish. Ugh!....but well played with.

Bet me. I've been trying to find an MTH Bessemer F-7 ABA set since they were released ~10 years ago. I think only like 2 were produced. lol.

Jim, too many on here have no clue on scarcity (rarity) of many items made in the last 20 years by MTH or other companies for that matter, but feel compelled to chime in and insist to the contrary anyway.  Only those paying close enough attention or seeking something particular, like yourself, can speak to the issue.

 

The original thought about the overuse and misuse of the word rare is valid, but still its use and descriptive purpose is still valid, even if some don't understand, when used in a learned perspective.

With TCA has gone to you don't need a sponsor to join anymore I keep seeing "rare hard to find" and they state there a TCA member and give there TCA number out to me it still doesn't mean anything any more either those that use the TCA member and give there number may be legit but its funny ( not ha ha) that all of a sudden I keep seeing there a TCA member to myself a lot of the time a stray away or pay very close to his feed back. 

Like water off a duck's back after all these years of wheeling and dealing.  It's fortunate that, as of late, nothing on OyBay is worth the cost of the exchange rate and shipping to Canada.  Pet Peeve words are still MINTY and WOW.

 

Bruce

sorry Dave, didn't mean to rub salt in the wound.

on the bright side, I see them at most shows that I

attend at prices ranging from $100-$250. w/ tender.

no sweat! being on the hunt is part of the fun! I'd rather be hitting shows for one, but between my 21 turn and the lack of local shows, the net is the next best thing.

on rare (there's that word again!!) occasions Ive seen dealers selling just

the locomotive for $50 or less. that leaves you looking for a tender.

I picked up a 675 at Syracuse a few years back for $40 with NO tender.

Just thought of this Dave!!

The Lionel postwar 2055 is the same boiler casting as the 2065. You could pick up a 2055,(and Ive seen them for $100 w/ tender). remove the boiler front and replace it

with an original 2065 boiler front with the feed water heater. The only draw back would be the number 2055 on the cab

no tender is fine, I've got a tender project in mind to build to go with a 665/2065.

Therer is a lot of this nonsense on the Bay.  But you have to admit, members of this forum are fairly well educated when it comes to trains and their values.  The best one I've seen lately is the Lionel Lackawanna wood reefer (6-36131) which is about $150.00 from more than one eBay seller, but you can get it, as I did, from Grzyboski for $24.95!  Hey, c'mon, it's from 2009!!!

Consider a 685 too... another 2065 clone. And if you like Baldwin disc wheels, check out the 8206.

The 8206 has tire traction. I have one with the wrong tender out on my layout right now. It runs OK.

And if you like Baldwin disc wheels, check out the 8206

 

oh I do...that one's on the radar too.

The reason why we see so many items on ebay "selling" at good prices is because many sellers use a stooge to bid the prices up. Can't tell you how many times I've seen the same item listed again after it was "sold". Hold your ground men, and the prices will continue to fall. There are far more trains for sale than buyers right now.

Mine is a great puller.

That gets expensive pretty quickly(final value fees), and is pretty transparent now with the way eBay tracks bidding behavior.

Same seller:

Extremely rare stuff

I have a mint in my basement, we're talking early retirement territory here!

 

Jerry

Lionel & mint in the same area, make me think of two things before I actual read it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like a bowl of them....and now I'm hungry

Agreed the term is abused often, along with Scarce and Hard To Find and a mirad of others. There is also another side to that coin. Those who list truly rare and scarce items and the buyers who are clueless giving them a hard time about it that they are wrong or trying to rip off people.

I went to a train show at the beginning of this year A lot of families were there. I could almost see the vultures circling over head They were telling these newbies so many stories about junk they had for sale I was almost embarrassed to say that these were people in the same hobby as me

Even truly "rare" doesn't mean it's worth much.

 

I have a gun collector friend who gathers any"rare" gun that comes along, thinking that because not many were made they are valuable.  I have spent over 40 years trying to convince him that maybe... just maybe... not many were made because they weren't worth a **** in the first place.

 

He sometimes spends way too much because most of the dealers in the area know he'll pay it for a "rare" piece.

In this day and age of the internet,smart phones,etc, there is no reason why a buyer/seller can't have an idea of what they have. Maybe not 100% sure, but at least in the ballpark. And at least find those who do know. But, I'd say that a good percentage of collectors have made a purchase with their heart, knowing they were paying too much. The thing here is not to go too overboard, and buy a total POS for gold.Just restoring old cars, you always put more into them then you could ever get selling it. We do it for the love of the car, or it was Dad's train,etc.

I was just on the bay looking for a CW80 transformer, found one for $318.00 plus shipping! I passed on this item, but just wondered if this guy will find a "Sucker" who would pay? Never know, just think it's a shame....

 

Uncle Al

quote:

Even truly "rare" doesn't mean it's worth much.

 

I have a gun collector friend who gathers any"rare" gun that comes along, thinking that because not many were made they are valuable.  I have spent over 40 years trying to convince him that maybe... just maybe... not many were made because they weren't worth a **** in the first place.

 

It's true that rare does not always mean more valuable. For a rare item to have value, enough people have to know about the item, and want it.

 

In the world of trains, there certainly are low quality pieces that are worth a great deal. The first example that comes to mind is the first American Flyer 625 tank car. All of them warped badly, presumably most were discarded. Today it is rare and highly prized among American Flyer collectors.

 

 

 

That is a correct statement but I guess some ebay sellers would rather pay the for sale fees than let an item go for what they feel is half the cost. The are certainly some legitimate rare collectibles, scale Hudsons, orig Girls train, a couple 6464 box cars, a few F3's but these days I see so many trains for sale that I consider very few really rare. . There are over 100,000 Lionel pieces alone for sale on eBay right now. Does that sound like trains are rare? If the truth be known, the market is flooded with trains and some collectors are swimming in the stuff.

as was stated in the first post i like my steak rare. since i have never eaten a train and don't plan on it i'm not into rare trains. i have several Bill Lenoir locomotives which are 1 of a kind and therefore are collectible to the right person. Again to the right person .

i think what most of you are missing is no matter what the venue is ebay auctions train shows or whatever anyone trying to sell an item is going to put it in the best light. a small home in realtor's speak is cute. a car salesman tells you the car was driven by a little old lady(he never met my grandmother who could burn rubber with the best of them) so what makes you think that someone is going to post common as flies at a picnic. tell me none of you ever implied something is better rarer nicer than the average.

my best advice is to use you wallet and brain to your best advantage. study up on what you want to buy and pay accordingly. the true value of any item is what a buyer is willing to pay and what a seller is willing to take. that has nothing to do with rarity just basic economics.