Remote control of Lionel accessories

Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but Lionel does have a device called an Accessory Motor Controller.  There's an earlier version of this as well:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...221781641250AMC2.pdf

George

There are oodles of bluetooth enabled relay boards out there such as this:

https://www.amazon.com/Channel...ontrol/dp/B079Z6FF42

Generally the will need their own DC power supply to power themselves, you use your bluetooth enabled smart device and their app to turn the relays on and off. The relays switch the low voltage AC for the accessory on and off just like a switch, but instead of a human interacting with something physical, electronics do it.

Even cheaper are the tons of relay boards with RF receivers and a small hand held remote.  There are tons of options, I just grabbed some of the first ones I saw.

Single channel control.

Four channel control.

George and gunrunnerjohn- thanks for the direction.  I did indeed first start looking at either the AMC or ACS, but what turned me off was the need to add another transformer, the instructions for each do not specifically say I could just run power from the track, ie center and outer rail to the ACS.  I run only legacy/tmcc, powered by 3 bricks with 18v at the track.  Could the ACS2 be powered by the track, that device seems most similar to a remote electronic switch which is what I am looking for.

If not, the RF devices referenced above could work.  But I am always confused by which voltage I should select, does  a DC RF device work, ie connecting power from the track, or do I specifically have to stick with something rated for AC, and if AC will the 18vAC from the track trigger a 220v device as referenced above, or is 220v just referencing the max it would support.

thanks

Frank

The receiver of the RF remotes needs 12VDC, that can be a $2 wall-wart.  As far as what it's controlling, it'll switch anything up to 110 volts at 10 amps, the relay is just dry contacts and totally isolated from anything in the receiver circuit. 

I can't help you with the AMC/ASC method, but if willing to do a little wiring the RF method might look like:

To your point, yes, the wireless relay modules require internal DC power to operate the internal electronics - that is the radio receiver and DC-coil relay.  The relay itself can switch AC (or DC).  In the case of your 110V remote control systems, the receivers convert the 110V AC to some low-voltage DC to operate the internal electronics.  The 110V AC is switched by the internal relay.  This is all built-in so it appears as 2-wires in (110V AC) and 2-wires out (110V switched AC).

18V AC is a unique voltage in the big scheme of things!  Hence, as GRJ shows in his first example, you might use a 12V DC-powered wireless relay.  Then you need to convert the 18V AC to 12V DC.  This can be done with a ~$5 AC-to-DC voltage converter module.  These modules have been used in a wide-variety of OGR applications.  You need a voltmeter to set the output voltage to 12V DC.  The relay contacts then switch the incoming 18V AC to your accessory.  So when all buttoned-up, it's 2-wires in (18V AC) and 2-wires out (18V switched AC).

In my photo there's a 2-button remote.  For the wireless relay modules I've seen and used, you configure the receiver to a mode that makes sense for you.  That is, some guys like a 1-button remote (press ON, press again turns OFF, toggles on each press).  Other guys like a 2-button remote (one button is ON, other button is OFF).

If you go this route and need help identifying specific modules, just ask!  It would be useful to know if eBay, Amazon, or any of the other usual suspects are on or off the table.  You can generally save a few bucks if you don't mind waiting a few weeks for stuff to come from Asia.

Right.  As GRJ says, if you can supply your "own" 12V DC to power a 12V DC-powered wireless relay, then you don't need the AC-to-DC converter module.  Of course it's no-longer the simple 2-wires in, 2-wires out...but 12V DC wall adapters are readily available and inexpensive.   And of course you don't need a voltmeter to set the AC-to-DC converter to 12V DC.

If you go this route I suggest a screw-terminal adapter so you don't have to splice into the wiring.  Here's an old photo showing the concept. 

All,

Thanks for the informative information.  My current layout is carpet based, still hoping someday to graduate to some bench work, hence I have limited access to wall outlets, all within reasonable reach are already being used to support powerbricks and CAB2.

So, I like the idea of utilizing the converter and relay.  I could hide them in a building.  If shopping Amazon or EBAY, what suggestions would you have that could be in my hand in a week, not much for waiting around for items.

One last question, from an expansion perspective, is there a relay that would have multiple outputs, so input from one converter and then out to multiple accessories, perhaps that is the 4 channel in gunrunnerjohn's first reply.

I think I have set up a similar circuit already without knowing it, I have a couple of Miller signs that draw power from the track to a Miller power relay and output 4.5v to the signs, the only thing missing is the RF module.

Again, thanks for all of the great feedback.

Frank

Some modules from eBay-Asia vs. shipped-by-Amazon:

You need a DC voltmeter and tiny screwdriver to set the output of AC-to-DC converter to 12V DC.

For expansion, as GRJ showed you could use a 4-channel (4-relay) 12V DC-powered wireless relay module.  Apparently you even get 2 transmitter fobs.  So this gives you independent on/off control of up to 4 accessories.  These wireless relay modules are readily available in 1, 2, and 4 channel versions. 

A single AC-to-DC converter can power multiple 12V relay modules as well as other 12V DC "gadgets" that might enhance your layout.  As previously mentioned you "teach" the relay module what it is to do in response to a valid remote command.  This is accomplished with the so-called "learn" button on the relay module...and following somewhat cryptic instructions.  It sounds like you're just after basic on-off operation where pressing a button toggles the corresponding relay on and off. 

Some relay modules can be "taught" to turn on for a brief interval, say 15 seconds, in response to a button press; one can imagine an electro-mechanical layout accessory that might benefit from this mode (rather than having to hold down the remote button for 15 seconds).

Or, there are zillions of 12V DC-powered timer modules (again, maybe $5 each) that could be used in conjunction with, or independently of, the wireless relay module to perform rather elaborate timing.  For example it could cycle the 18V AC to an accessory...say, on for 10 minutes, off for 5 minutes, repeating forever.

Finally, you didn't mention MTH-DCS command-control but if this is or will be on the table, you need to add a so-called DCS-choke (a 22uH inductor) to the input of the 18V AC track-powered AC-to-DC voltage converter module.

----

Separately, and I realize you did not ask about this, but let's say you get the 4 channel version.  Let's assume you can fit the AC-to-DC converter module and a 1-channel wireless relay module (like I showed in my first photo) in a piece of rolling stock.  You could "teach" the 1-channel relay to respond to, say, button "D" of the remote fob.  Then you'd have 3 independent on/off controls using buttons A, B, C for fixed trackside layout accessories.  And the 4th channel could control the rolling stock action whatever that may be; you would no longer need to position the rolling stock over a UCS or similar track section!   For example here's a 1-channel relay module for only $3 shipped by Amazon; you wouldn't need the remote fob since you could "teach" this module to respond to button "D" of the 4-channel remote.

Thanks for the direction, I went ahead and ordered through Amazon, will reach out if I need advice on the wiring, but think your previous image was clear.

thanks

Frank

After-the-fact added note: Please read to the end of this thread if considering the 4-channel wireless relay receiver discussed below.  The wiring diagram on the Amazon listing below may be incorrect!

I found in my parts stash what I think is the actual converter recommended - so the wiring should look something like:

You could probably figure out the markings on the converter but to be clear above shows the bottom of the converter board which has the markings defining the screw-terminal functions.

Regarding the 4-channel relay receiver, as I understand the instructions on Amazon, you probably want the so-called "self-locking" mode which requires installing the jumper as indicated - presumably they supply the plug-on shorting-jumper.

You'd think the seller would have pre "paired" the receiver to the supplied transmitter fobs...if for no other reason than you'd think they would test the system.  But who knows.  That's where the "Learn" button is used.

The latest All Electronics catalog has a 433MHz transmitter/receiver pair ideal for remote on-off. Price for the set is $3.00.

And you can get the same set from AliExpress for less than a dollar, shipped free.

True, and I have bought from AliExpress, but delivery is 30-50 days. I am 15 minutes from All Electronics so the decision in this case was simple.

I'm not 15 minutes from any electronics store, so I mail-order.   When I see something like this, I also grab a couple, so I have a ton of little electronic modules that I can just open a drawer to use.

This thread shows that OGR Forum-ite Gunrunner John may be the most resourceful and cheapest (i.e., free) consultant to model train hobbyists!

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394

Why not just wire the accessory to a small starter set transformer plugged into a separate outlet controlled by a remote? 

Bill T 

@WftTrains posted:

Why not just wire the accessory to a small starter set transformer plugged into a separate outlet controlled by a remote? 

Previously, the OP stated he has limited access to wall outlets:

@FJI 05 posted:

... My current layout is carpet based, still hoping someday to graduate to some bench work, hence I have limited access to wall outlets, all within reasonable reach are already being used to support powerbricks and CAB2.

@BOB WALKER posted:

The latest All Electronics catalog has a 433MHz transmitter/receiver pair ideal for remote on-off. Price for the set is $3.00.

Or, you can get what appears to be the same 433 MHz transmitter/receiver pair for $1.50 (albeit when you buy 5) shipped by Amazon.

Note that this tx/rx pair is the bare-bones of a remote control "system."  To perform what the OP is asking for, you need to provide DC power to each module.  You would need a relay (or know how to wire up a triac) to switch 18V AC to the load.  You would need some kind of latching electronics so that the 18V AC to the load stays "on" after releasing the remote button.  If attempting to independently control more than one accessory you would need addressing logic.  And so on.

When all said and done I suppose you might save a buck or two but there are many i's to dot and t's to cross.  In my opinion of course...

I'm doing some tinkering with some "upscale" versions of these products that provide latching support and relays. If you're going to get into the remote control, spending a couple more bucks on the components will allow you to do the job more simply, not to mention better range and being encoded, no cross-talk from another transmitter.

Here's a simple setup with a couple of single channel 1527 learning code relay modules and both a key-fob control and a transmitter PCB.  Note that the receiver can be programmed to recognize multiple remotes, so each of the relay receivers are seeing commands from either the key-fob or the 4-channel transmitter board. 

In the shot below, there is a key-fob 4-channel transmitter, a PCB 4 channel transmitter, and two 1527 learning code relay receivers.  The video will demonstrate the control possible with each of these transmitters.

When viewing the video, look for the small blue LED next to the terminal strip, that indicates the state of the relay.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

...

If you're going to get into the remote control, spending a couple more bucks on the components will allow you to do the job more simply, not to mention better range and being encoded, no cross-talk from another transmitter.

What he said.

The 4-channel tx/rx pair that GRJ shows has what I call the "addressing logic" built-in so you can independently address/control 4 devices.  In its native form, you could only have one bare-bones tx/rx pair on your layout.

It gets a bit nerdy but another advantage of the more recent tx/rx modules is crystal-controlled frequency both tx and rx sides.  GRJ's video shows something like the following module pair but you can see the crystals on the modules; the relay module appears to have the receiver module as a sideways daughter card.  The bare-bones pair uses a SAW resonator to set the transmit frequency and a tuned coil-capacitor to set the receive frequency.  Crystal-controlled wireless links have superior sensitivity, range and employ more modern super-heterodyne vs. regenerative radio circuitry which the ham radio crowd will appreciate.   

I'm currently working on a little board that will provide power and opto-isolation for one of the transmitter modules.  It will also take in track power to power it.  The plan is to have a somewhat turn-key solution to dropping the transmitter somewhere and trigger it with any voltage from around 1.5 volts to 18 volts AC or DC.  Each input it totally opto-isolated so you can tap the voltage from anywhere to activate it.  This would be a companion to any remote controlled device using one of the receivers.

A major benefit of these learning modules, as seen in my previous post, you have independent latching channels or you can program them for momentary.  You can program the operational aspect of each receiving module uniquely, so one can be momentary, and another can be a on/off toggle.

Here's what I would envision for the transmitter module.  Totally optically isolated inputs to maximize the flexibility.  The transmitter module plugs into the right-angle connector and covers the left side of the board.  The board can be powered with 9 to 18 volts AC or DC and has DCS compatibility.

The input triggers function from around 1.5V AC or DC to 18V AC or DC.  Power consumption is minimal, around 10ma total.

What I'd like to see is a method where a transition (low-to-high, or high-to-low) on an input will send a momentary RF burst...maybe 1 second long.  

To date I am not aware of any practical solution to directional lighting for a subway consist or even a pusher-puller MU with a dummy engine at one end.  Your wireless link would be triggered by the REV light in the engine.  The car/engine at the other end would then mimic the REV light.  Since the REV light might be on for minutes or hours, you would not want to have the transmitter continuously on for that duration.  Instead you want to send a momentary burst whenever the light changes.

I like the opto-isolator concept at the input.  In the case of MTH PS2/3 engines, your module could be powered by track-power and the inputs would be a PS2 or PS3 light output signal which would be PV DC-pulses on PS2 or the 5V DC-pulses on PS3.

A related application would have the input triggered by the rear-coupler signal.  So when firing the rear-coupler of the lead engine it would be wirelessly relayed to the trailing engine so that the actual rear coupler is fired rather than decoupling the MU between engines.

For my transmitter module, it could have a capacitively coupled trigger that would only output a pulse until the input went off and back on.  That would cover the case where the input stays for a long period of time.

Here's what the transmit module looks like now.  The output filter TC with the input impedance of the transmitter trigger gives me about a 40ms TC, enough to filter AC or half-wave AC coming in to the opto-coupler.

Super.  I see we're on the same page. 

I'm also imagining your modules could once and for all "solve" the lighted passenger car scenario.  That is, you could place a receiver module in every lighted passenger car of a consist so that the interior lights follow the interior light of, say, the engine.  It just seems so last-century that you turn on a yard siding, the engine powers up silently BUT the lighted passenger cars turn on their lights.   How cool would it be that the passenger cars remain dark until you start up the engine!

I'd probably have to do at least one set of passenger cars that way, it would be pretty tricky to have remote control of all of them.

For LED lighting, you probably don't need a relay module.  A little board something like I show for the transmitter with a transistor or FET driver would be plenty to light LED's.

I'll have to think about the capacitive coupling to do the momentary transmission.

An interesting thought-exercise could be how to practically add wireless-remote functionality to your LED Passenger Car Lighting Modules.

Since your Lighting Module accepts both AC or DC, perhaps the closest-exit is to use a FET in the receiver to apply DC power.  So for all the guys who have already installed the Lighting Module and LED strips, you'd simply move the 2-wires that went to track power over to the output of the wireless receiver.  Just thinking out loud...

Yep, but you'd need higher voltage since I need at least 12VDC to light them.  I could also use something like the MOC3010M opto-coupled triac driver to just switch the track power.  They're low power, but they'll handle several hundred milliamps.

Yeah, just nit-picking.  Have you ever tried using a bare-bones triac design to switch a chopped-sinewave? 

I seem to recall you discovered a really tiny and inexpensive relay that handled a couple Amps or so. 

I didn't think about the chopped waveform, that might be interesting.

There are plenty of relays that could be pressed into service, I use them on my motion sensing board.  However, I'd probably go for the really low coil power 5V reed relay for this application, it handles half an amp.  I picked up some of those on eBay several years back.

Here's a possible quick fix for the momentary transmission issue, just have to pick the value for the caps.  The transmitter has a high value pull up to 5V, looks to be around 47k internal resistance.  Since the trigger is active low, when the opto fires, the series caps will pull the transmit pin down until they charge and then the trigger will float back high.  I probably have to high value resistors to 5V on the output of the opto across the discharge the series caps.

OK, sent off for some prototype boards at OSH Park for the transmitter and matching receiver modules.  I did add the pull-up resistors to discharge the caps on the transmitter module.

The 1527 transmitter plugs into the 90 degree connector at the top left and lays over the top of the board.  This board is 1.05" wide and 1.35" long.  The channels are all 100% optically isolated and the board uses around 10-15 millamps.

Since the transmitter brings the antenna out on the connector, I added about 6" of antenna trace to the PCB, that should take care of the need for an external antenna.  I did leave a connection point to add to that antenna if needed.

================================================================================================

The receiver board has four 1/2A (1A max load) reed relays driven directly off the 1527 learning code receiver.  This board uses from around 5 ma to 40ma, depending on how many relays are activated.  If you're using this for a single function, some of the relay positions can be left unpopulated.

The receiver has an antenna post on the actual receiver PCB, so the user gets to add that antenna if needed.  I highly recommend it, I found it really extends the range.

Both of the boards have DCS compatibility and run off from 9V to 18V AC or DC.

Given the operating modes of the 1527 Learning Code receivers, you can actually access this unit with multiple remotes, and also set various operating modes, momentary, toggle, or 1 of 4 active.  Operating modes can be different for the same accessory output from different remotes.

I should have the boards back from OSH Park in several weeks, it'll be interesting to see how this all works out.

Got to thinking of size and made a 1" x 1" FET version of the 4-channel receiver.  Similar logic to the relay version, just uses FET's (with a PTC current limiter and a series diode) for each channel.  The FET outputs can handle 300-400 milliamps.  Also, on these receiver boards, the receiver can be soldered in and eliminate the height of the connector, there's no real reason you'd have to remove them once everything is playing properly.  For that matter, you could leave the other two connectors off and just wire the board directly.

Not sure I'm keeping up with the changes.  In the above version, C2 is blocking the DC power path from the power supply GND to the TX module.  I "think" you meant to put C2 between 5V and GND?

Also, as drawn there is no DC path for each opto to turn "on".   I'm not clear on what resistors you added to charge/discharge the capacitor(s) but as drawn, it is an unduly delicately balanced C7:C3 capacitive divider for VOL1 to generate a single clean "on" pulse to the TX when VOL1 is triggered.

I have done some experimentation with these modules and have found that 1/2 sec of TX on-time is reliable.  That is, I was using an MTH-AIU SW output to trigger the TX module.  The AIU SW output is always exactly 1/2 sec.  Anyway, that's what I'd target as the momentary TX burst.

Finally, tell me your scenario of the 4 channel module.  I see in your first diagram you call these "Sound Trigger Inputs".  Where might these come from?  Isolated-rail trigger?  Inquiring minds want to know! 

That is, as you stated, the in-series capacitor coupler (e.g., C7) can contribute to a momentary trigger instead of a steady-on TX.  But this would only apply to the "toggle" mode where the trigger must occur twice to first turn a channel on, then again to turn it off.  Perhaps this is a "it is left to the student" to determine how to send a momentary "on" command when the trigger is set, then a separate momentary "off" command when the trigger is removed?

Good eye Stan, I corrected that in my review before I sent the boards off to OSHPark.  You can probably guess that the starting point was a cut-n-paste from another project, and my first quick schematic had a few holes.  I noticed no power right away, and I also added bleed resistors to the trigger outputs.  The transmitter has a high value pull-up, so I think I'm covered now.

@stan2004 posted:

I have done some experimentation with these modules and have found that 1/2 sec of TX on-time is reliable.  That is, I was using an MTH-AIU SW output to trigger the TX module.  The AIU SW output is always exactly 1/2 sec.  Anyway, that's what I'd target as the momentary TX burst.

Finally, tell me your scenario of the 4 channel module.  I see in your first diagram you call these "Sound Trigger Inputs".  Where might these come from?  Isolated-rail trigger?  Inquiring minds want to know! 

My plan is to tune the cap value to achieve reliable triggering.  I just started with a place holder.  The "sound" is from the original schematic, it is a sound board that has local triggers or remote triggers with the receiver.  That's one that I'll be producing in quantity, I'll be posting it soon.

@stan2004 posted:

That is, as you stated, the in-series capacitor coupler (e.g., C7) can contribute to a momentary trigger instead of a steady-on TX.  But this would only apply to the "toggle" mode where the trigger must occur twice to first turn a channel on, then again to turn it off.  Perhaps this is a "it is left to the student" to determine how to send a momentary "on" command when the trigger is set, then a separate momentary "off" command when the trigger is removed?

 I was thinking of having a jumper option to bypass the cap if you wanted different behavior.  I wanted a board to play with, so this one is my prototype.

As you can see, I also laid out two versions of the receiver, one has reed relays for totally isolated switching, the other is smaller and uses FET drivers with a series diode to power the loads.

Providing an update on my progress, hooked everything up and works as expected.  One last question, if I wish to use one of the other channels can:

1. the ac hot side be supplied directly from the track to C on each one of the 4 channel switches and not a jumper from the converter to C of each channel, or should it be jumped from C to C on the switch, channel a to b and so on.  I think that is what your diagram is showing.  Currently I have the hot connected to the first channel C from the converter as in your diagram.  

2. the ac ground would be daisy chained from one accessory to another, so the first ground from the converter to accessory and then from the accessory to the next accessory

3. each accessory would have its own wire from NO of the 4 channel switch 

Reason for asking is that the terminals on the converter will be difficult to hold multiple hot and ground ac wires.

Hope I explained that clearly.

thanks

Frank