I’ve been looking into this project for a while, and I own a few examples of these finely detailed J1 class Hudsons. But like most of us that own these know, they’re way underpowered. I had one come into the shop for a bad chuff switch, and I got to looking around since the easiest way to access the chuff switch is to pop the motor out......I’ve had quite a few discussions with Pete ( Norton ) about these models and the subject of repowering always comes up....In there current state, my KLine Hudsons have been condemned to commuter duty and short milk runs. Pete has tried other motors, and I’ll let him elaborate on what he’s tried if he wants to....I believe he mentioned a Maxon motor. It appears that the 8300-8400 series Pittmans might be a fit for this project. In the pictures you’ll see what I mean...it’s gonna be tight, it’s going to be close, but I’m going to give it a go....what’s got to happen is, I’ll need to fabricate an adapter plate to mount the Pittman to the existing Mubachi 385 motor mount. I’ll need to transfer the worm to the Pittman. This is where I need a little help, and I’ll post a WTB ad on that forum as well....if anybody has extra motors they have from a cruise swap, or a dead motor with the worm, I’d like to buy a few to have spare parts for the first trial run of part manufacturing....I’ll need to bore the worm obviously to fit the Pittman...this is where I’ll want extras on hand to perfect this part of the swap....the motors from the scale Hudsons, and the Scale Mikados are the same according to Pete....I’ve done most of the homework as far as fitment goes, and there’s still some R&D work to do, but we’re factoring things like flywheel shapes and sizes as we go along...once we get a repowering “kit” together, I might be able to reproduce the parts as an option for some of these underpowered locomotives. And make them available. Pete provided me with the performance values of the 385, and comparing that to this model/family of Pittmans, it’s a significant increase in power vs. the 385.....there may be additional KLine locomotives like their scale Berkshires that can take advantage of this upgrade....this is still in its earliest stages of development, but if I can get my hands on some more motors to harvest the worm, I can make this happen. So if any of y’all have this motor with the worm attached, I’d like to buy them. Again, I will post an ad in the WTB to keep it official like, but I wanted everyone to see what I’m up to with this project, and it’s possibilities......and thanks to Pete (Norton) for your expertise and ideas. Some example item no.’s for these locomotives are K-3270, K-3690, & K-3615....if anybody has any other knowledge about motor interchangeability between these models, pipe up............Pat25C0A233-5E83-47E6-AD56-FAC4D98A40310CE35A23-B4A6-4496-811F-34D48868E7C8

The Water Level Route.......You Can Sleep

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I love the idea.  And I totally agree about the difficulty of swapping the worm- if someone develops a manageable way to do this I would like to hear more.  This would open the door to a lot of swaps where the worm gear is pressed on the motor shaft (a pet peeve of mine!)

Creep, coast, and pull.  We're not talking about cold fusion here.

Ted, the plan is to bore the existing worm. Obviously the Pittman shaft will be much larger than that toothpick 385. I’ll make the existing worm a snug, slip fit, then counter bore for a set screw. There’s plenty of blind area on the worm to do this. This will make servicing everything a whole lot easier.........Pat

The Water Level Route.......You Can Sleep

As Pat stated I did begin to try doing a motor swap in my K-Line Hudson. I have used Swiss made Maxon motors in my HO engines many years ago. They are high quality and have high torque compared to other motors of the same size.

Maxon now makes about 6 grades of motors and I believe the least expensive of those are now Asian made. I found some on eBay about the same size as the Mabuchi 385s for about for only slightly more than the Mabuchi. It wasn't until I received them and was able to check the specs that I discovered their torque rating is also the same as the Mabuchi. At that point I set the Maxon aside and will continue looking for better alternatives like Pat's Pittmans.

One thing about the gears used by everyone on their Mabuchi motors is there is enough metal to drill and tap for a set screw. 

That will allow drilling for a sliding fit and eliminate the possibilty of damaging a motor by pressing it on.

BTW Maxons high line use ball bearings and rare earth magnets and while they make a lot of power they come with a price well in excess of 200 bucks for a Mabuchi 385 size motor.

Edit, I see Pat is already aware of the set screw option.

 

Pete

Some of these gears are "Locktited" on.  I made a special collar to hang the gear, and a cradle with padding to catch the motor gently.

Heat the worm and the motor drops out.

MTH is that way.  Not totally sure of the K-Line, but I two-railed one with a Pittman 8000 series motor (in the firebox where God intended motors to be) and stitched up the belly.  It was stunning, but seemed too small to me.  

 

bob2 posted:

Some of these gears are "Locktited" on.  I made a special collar to hang the gear, and a cradle with padding to catch the motor gently.

Heat the worm and the motor drops out.

MTH is that way.  Not totally sure of the K-Line, but I two-railed one with a Pittman 8000 series motor (in the firebox where God intended motors to be) and stitched up the belly.  It was stunning, but seemed too small to me.  

 

Bob, how much heat does it take? I’ve tried the heat treatment on several Mubachi’s with the worm gear on the shaft, seems like I still had to use a puller...but I’ll try your trick, I have some dead motors from MTH and Lionel ...unfortunately I don’t have any Kline’s....so I have no idea what kind of fight I’m up against....looks like I might be testing the strength of the Great Planes pinion puller....🤤.........Pat

The Water Level Route.......You Can Sleep

bob2 posted:

Some of these gears are "Locktited" on.  I made a special collar to hang the gear, and a cradle with padding to catch the motor gently.

Heat the worm and the motor drops out.

MTH is that way.  Not totally sure of the K-Line, but I two-railed one with a Pittman 8000 series motor (in the firebox where God intended motors to be) and stitched up the belly.  It was stunning, but seemed too small to me.  

 

Did you build a completely new chassis or modify the K-Line chassis to put the motor in the boiler?

Santa Fe, All the Way

I tried heat on the K-Line gear. I used my resistence soldering tweezers and got the gear red hot and it did not just pull off. I ended up having to cut the shaft and driving the shaft out of the gear. That was before I got my Great Planes puller.

This will be a good test of that tool.

Pete

Definitely following this thread.  I bought the Great Planes puller, but there was some discussion that the pin that comes with it isn't small enough for use with a '385.  I have one K-Line loco that's begging for a motor swap.  If someone finds a way to transfer the worm gear, it's a done deal!

Creep, coast, and pull.  We're not talking about cold fusion here.

Ted S posted:

Definitely following this thread.  I bought the Great Planes puller, but there was some discussion that the pin that comes with it isn't small enough for use with a '385.  I have one K-Line loco that's begging for a motor swap.  If someone finds a way to transfer the worm gear, it's a done deal!

The Great Planes puller has a small enough pin to do a Mubachi, it’s the length of some worm gears that’s the problem....not a huge deal to overcome......Pat

The Water Level Route.......You Can Sleep

josef posted:

What are the possibilities of having a machinist make the gears?

Not necessary once I perfect how to bore the OE gear and have it mount on the Pittman shaft with ease. Most importantly, be able to repeat the process over and over again...That’s why I’d like to have just a couple more worm gears for this locomotive on hand before I start the process.....if I slip up, the project grinds to a halt till I find another.......at the moment, I only have one......but I’d figure to have such a gear made would be pretty cost prohibitive. Especially since once we perfect the bore, we’ll be using the OE gear over every time.......Pat

The Water Level Route.......You Can Sleep

I remember my K-Line USRA Mikado having a really steep gear ratio, something like 12:1. Is the Husdon like that? I also found the 83XX Pitmans to be a bit 'coggy' at low speed with ERRCo Cruise for some reason, despite them being a 7 pole motor. I've seen those Hudsons go for cheap money but always avoided them since I wanted to pull a full train of GGD coaches that have lived under my layout for years now. 

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I remember my K-Line USRA Mikado having a really steep gear ratio, something like 12:1. Is the Husdon like that? I also found the 83XX Pitmans to be a bit 'coggy' at low speed with ERRCo Cruise for some reason, despite them being a 7 pole motor. I've seen those Hudsons go for cheap money but always avoided them since I wanted to pull a full train of GGD coaches that have lived under my layout for years now. 

I’m sure Ted S. can tell us the gear ratio of these pups....as I have no clue off the top of my head....anything has got to be better than the whimpy 385 motor that resides in there now....8300 series & 8400 series Pittmans share the same can....If the 8300’s tend to be coggy, I’ll jump up .....everything I got here to try out are Pittman LO-COG’s ...so I reckon we’ll put their advertisement to the test....😉.............Pat

The Water Level Route.......You Can Sleep

harmonyards posted:
josef posted:

What are the possibilities of having a machinist make the gears?

Not necessary once I perfect how to bore the OE gear and have it mount on the Pittman shaft with ease. Most importantly, be able to repeat the process over and over again...That’s why I’d like to have just a couple more worm gears for this locomotive on hand before I start the process.....if I slip up, the project grinds to a halt till I find another.......at the moment, I only have one......but I’d figure to have such a gear made would be pretty cost prohibitive. Especially since once we perfect the bore, we’ll be using the OE gear over every time.......Pat

I could be wrong, but isn't the motor shaft made of harder steel than the gear itself? That will make the boring process... less boring.

RoyBoy

RoyBoy posted:
harmonyards posted:
josef posted:

What are the possibilities of having a machinist make the gears?

Not necessary once I perfect how to bore the OE gear and have it mount on the Pittman shaft with ease. Most importantly, be able to repeat the process over and over again...That’s why I’d like to have just a couple more worm gears for this locomotive on hand before I start the process.....if I slip up, the project grinds to a halt till I find another.......at the moment, I only have one......but I’d figure to have such a gear made would be pretty cost prohibitive. Especially since once we perfect the bore, we’ll be using the OE gear over every time.......Pat

I could be wrong, but isn't the motor shaft made of harder steel than the gear itself? That will make the boring process... less boring.

I’m sure I can bore through it with ease Roy, I’m more on a quest to gather spares to perfect the process....I haven’t begun the actual swap just yet....got a few jobs in front of this one....(including yours buddy) 

I’m sure there’s some dead motors, or leftover motors somebody has from cruise swaps laying around....I’m just after a couple more worm gears ...if this was a Lionel, or a MTH, I have spare parts galore.....these Kline’s are just so funky built, I have nothing in my arsenal to keep the job afloat......Pat

The Water Level Route.......You Can Sleep

harmonyards posted:

I’m sure there’s some dead motors, or leftover motors somebody has from cruise swaps laying around....I’m just after a couple more worm gears ...if this was a Lionel, or a MTH, I have spare parts galore.....these Kline’s are just so funky built, I have nothing in my arsenal to keep the job afloat......Pat

Just make a gear to match the K-Line gear. Easy .

A thought: is it possible to replace the K-Line axle gear with a different gear and machine the chassis to accept the motor mounted in the smokebox? Probably a bigger pain but it would possibly allow the use of the 9434 or 9433 Pittman......

Santa Fe, All the Way

Lou, if I’m going to go through all of that trouble, I’ll just sit the shell down on a MTH chassis!..☺️.....but at some point, that well will run dry....

I wish I knew the thought process that went through their minds when they decided on this chassis....it makes no sense at all.....I’d have to go out on a limb and guess there was a baby bird in the room singing “cheap, cheap, cheap” .........Pat

The Water Level Route.......You Can Sleep

On second thought, imagine if they did put that 385 where it belonged. THEN folks would have gasped for sure!...that’d be like opening the hood of a Cadillac and finding a 2 cylinder Wisconsin......yikes!.......Pat

The Water Level Route.......You Can Sleep

harmonyards posted:

Lou, if I’m going to go through all of that trouble, I’ll just sit the shell down on a MTH chassis!..☺️.....but at some point, that well will run dry....

I wish I knew the thought process that went through their minds when they decided on this chassis....it makes no sense at all.....I’d have to go out on a limb and guess there was a baby bird in the room singing “cheap, cheap, cheap” .........Pat

I was thinking out loud for people who don't have access to a pile of parts and want a decent running locomotive. When parts run out you have to modify what you have . I'd have to say that it must have been cheaper to mount the motor this way for some reason. After all these Hudsons were around $500 brand new from K-Line. The whole motor/driveline configuration is a result of trying to hit that $500 price point. 

Is there actually enough room to cut up the chassis to mount the motor in the firebox, if one really wanted to?

Santa Fe, All the Way

Hard to say Lou, but I’d bet that’d be a daunting task......you’d probably have to widdle that chassis down to nothing and use a stand alone floating gearbox like a NWSL piece....

I’d have to agree with you, it must have been them trying to keep the price point down and keep their piece of the market........Pat

The Water Level Route.......You Can Sleep

I never owned one of these, because I was put off by the small motor mounted the wrong way.  However, I would be really surprised to learn that the gear ratio was 12:1.  I have examined Lionel locos based on the K-Line tooling, some of which still use this arrangement.  They are geared in the 18:1 to 22:1 range, which is what I would expect for the K-Line Mikado.  Maybe someone that owns an original K-Line can take the shell off and count the revs.

A lot of the stuff K-Line made was "cheap"; i.e., corners were cut to save a few bucks.  With these locos, Maury Klein was trying to break into the scale steam market against established players by offering product at a $600 price point.  As Ben Franklin said, "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."  The MTH USRA Mikado is geared about the same, but comes standard with a Pittman motor mounted in the firebox, as God intended!

I agree wholeheartedly that using a stand-alone KTM-style gearbox would be the best solution.  But  you would pretty much have to redesign the loco, as the axles and worm wheel are "captive" in the chassis.  Just thinking about Lobaugh, Max Gray, and US Hobbies stuff from the '50s and '60s makes me green with envy!

Creep, coast, and pull.  We're not talking about cold fusion here.

harmonyards posted:

Hard to say Lou, but I’d bet that’d be a daunting task......you’d probably have to widdle that chassis down to nothing and use a stand alone floating gearbox like a NWSL piece....

I’d have to agree with you, it must have been them trying to keep the price point down and keep their piece of the market........Pat

K-Line was trying to hit a price point with the design. I just can't figure how it was cheaper to mount the motor like they did. They could have just " reverse engineered" a MTH Railking Hudson drivetrain and plopped it under their scale Hudson. It's virtually the same thing, but with the motor in the firebox. 

Santa Fe, All the Way

As far as reversing the motor orientation, Lionel had the chance to do that when they released the Legacy versions of the K-Line Mikado. Light, Heavy, and even the brass hybrid all with the 385 Mabuchi mounted like K-Lines. Speaks loudly of how easy this would be. By contrast, MTH's version of the USRA Mikado has a big Pittman mounted in the firebox. 

Pete

Hump Yard Mike posted:

Curious if there were any progress on the motor swap for the Hudson?

Mike

Soon Mike, I was waiting for someone to hopefully have a dead motor with worm gear, so I’d have spare gears here in case I messed up and the project ground to a halt. Pete said he had a a KLine cruise kit for me as a back up if the project goes south.......I’m hoping I won’t need it, and soon I’ll have time to get back on this.....Pat

The Water Level Route.......You Can Sleep

I'll try to answer a couple of the above questions.

I made a two piece steel thing that could be bolted together under the worm.  I used an end mill to get the steel thin enough.  Then the thing was propped up on two blocks, with a rag under the motor to cushion the fall.  I heated the motor - solder temperature is good enough; cherry red destroys stuff.  Finally I used a skinny nail set and a hammer, while hot.  Whump!  Motor drops into the rag.

I di 2-rail one of these - using the original frame.  Had to remove a lot of material in the tail beam to get the 8000 Pittman in there.  Not enough room for a 9000.

I closed in the belly - U-shaped boilers make me nuts!

In all, it was then a striking model - until I parked it next to the 763.  Then it seemed small to me, as does the K-Line Berk that I similarly 2-railed.  I have been assured that these models are full 1/4" scale size, so no need to again attempt to convince me - they are works of art, and too small for me.

I did make new frames for the MTH Hudson and the Lionel FEF.  The MTH had seriously undersize cylinders, but was otherwise a nice model.  The FEF is stunning!

My last project will be an MTH Bi-Polar.  Gearbox costs alone will drive the cost of the conversion through the stratosphere.  I may just 2-rail the drivers and leave the MTH gears as-is.  I also have a Lionel 4-12-2 in a box, and it is a candidate for 2-railing, but I don't care much for the sand dome.  We'll see . . .

I used a pencil torch - localized heat in a hurry.  Motor is never touched.  Takes ten seconds.

Here are some of my Hudsons - the one with a tender is MTH with Lobaugh drivers and All Nation cylinders.  The other is the K-Line.  Note that you can see the brass bearing block in front of the third driver.  I put tires on the K-Line drivers; they are among the best NYC drivers I have seen, and tolerated machine work well.

 

kline1MTH Hudson 3

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It is a Lobaugh boiler.  Measured out pretty close to CB&Q.  Patterned somewhat after a shortened GS-1.

Numbered in the same block of numbers used for the 70 ton GE switchers.  I rode behind 5115 a couple times in southeastern Arizona.

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