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67 replies

Santa Fe Passenger FT's and screened vents in FT body doors.

SW Simon WinterOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Simon Winter:

The only FT models to have achieved perfection thus far are the PRR version.

 

Simon

I'm a bit disappointed that nobody jumped all over this post. I don't think there are ANY perfect models out there. Really good....but not perfect. The PRR didn't own any FT's, and therefore no models of them, and thus why I said PRR FT models were the only ones that were perfect.

 

To get back to the actual FT thread, has anyone determined if the vents are "as built" or a shop modification? If they are a shop mod, you could have them either way, and no one would need to "have a cow".

 

I've always liked the look of the pilots on the Santa Fe Ft's because they had the small steps out front rather than the larger more clunky steps near the rear/side as seen on most other roads. Opinion of course.

 

Simon

Last edited by Simon Winter
H hibarOGR Forum Member

I believe it was stated in a previous post this was a RR shop mod,GM did not deliver the FTs with vents in the doors. the cause of all the reaction to this thread was the original poster stating this was a mistake by the importers when in reality it was a later mod by the RRs that the importers choose not to include on the models they imported, The original poster then rephrased his post but obiviously the pot had been stirred.JMO

markermarkerOGR Forum Member

To get back to the actual FT thread, has anyone determined if the vents are "as built" or a shop modification? If they are a shop mod, you could have them either way, and no one would need to "have a cow".

This is what all but people that are interested in the vents are ignoring.

 

Except for one EMD Santa Fe FT passenger unit #167LABC, all the rest of the Santa Fe passenger FT's were delivered as freight units in the freight paint scheme. 

 

These freight units were then taken into the Santa Fe shops and modified by Santa Fe to be passenger units.  So as delivered they were not in the War Bonnet paint scheme and the vents didn't exist.

 

When Santa Fe converted the other 10 units (again, not 167LABC) were converted for passenger service, coming of the shop with War Bonnet paint, they had the vents in the doors.  There is photographic evidence to show this.  

 

That means all Santa Fe passenger War Bonnet FT's except for 167LABC only existed with the vents.

 

To say that GM never delivered the FT's with vents is too simplified and a distortion because GM didn't deliver 10 of the passenger FT's to Santa Fe set up for passenger service.  Santa Fe installed the steam generators and made the other modifications necessary.  When the 10 engines came out of the Santa Fe shops ready for passenger service, they had the vents in the side doors.

 

Therefore except for 167LABC which was delivered 14 months before the Santa Fe shop modified units, none of the other passenger FT's are correct without vents in the doors.

 

The original poster then rephrased his post but obiviously the pot had been stirred.JMO

I had to rephrase it because guys like you distorted the intent of the original post.  I thought if I made it more clear, it might be understood.  But that wasn't good enough since the feeding frenzy had already started. Many of the assertions became ridiculous.  

 

This experience has been like playing Whack-A-Mole.  

 

I still doubt that you understand that except for FT 167LABC, the rest of the 10 passenger FT's which were converted by Santa Fe shops where never seen in War Bonnet paint without the door vents.

 

If I'm wrong prove it.

 

BTW - If the passenger FT's (except for 167LABC) were in "as delivered" by EMD form, they would only have single headlights, no steam generator details, etc., and would look like this:

  

ft100-2

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Last edited by marker
Number 90Number 90OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Originally Posted by hibar:

I believe it was stated in a previous post this was a RR shop mod,GM did not deliver the FTs with vents in the doors. the cause of all the reaction to this thread was the original poster stating this was a mistake by the importers when in reality it was a later mod by the RRs that the importers choose not to include on the models they imported . . .

Ah, we're back to reasonable discussion.  Let's stay there, please.

 

By the way, I have studied Santa Fe engines and their details for over 60 years -- even seen rednose passenger FT's up close -- and I had never noticed the door vents until they were pointed out in John McCall's Warbonnet article.  A tip of my hat to Brother McCall.

B bob2OGR Forum Member

It may seem reasonable to you, but it looks quite complicated from here.  I sort of follow the general discussion, but I still do not see the screen/no screen area.  You say it is on a door?  Marker still leads me to believe that it is not known whether this screen was always there, and thus it is not known whether this is an inaccuracy on the model.

 

Fortunately, I am personally happy with my FTs, so do not need to worry about whether that screen exists on mine.

suzukovichsuzukovichOGR Forum Member

Marker I am now starting to post my response to you. No I will not change what I said.

 

Santa Fe FT Locomotives

Updated 1-11-2011

The purpose of this series of pages is to not to cover materials already on the internet about the Santa Fe FT locomotives, but to provide some additional information for the modeler and historian.

Already on the internet are:

To this we add an Index of Published Photos of FTs in excel and pdf form. It was last updated 1/10/11. A list of books consulted is also included.

Don't be surprised if you find some contradictory information in these files.

Not all FTs look the same. Photos are the only way to produce a prototype model. In addition the individual units went through several renumberings, pairings, and paint schemes. For instance, three different locomotives wore the number 137C. The first 137C was renumbered 401L in 1950 and renumbered again to 168C in 1956. The second 137C began life as the 140C and became 137C in 1950. It  was renumbered to 138L 9 days later. The third 137C started life as 138L and was renumberd as 402L in 1950 and then to 137C in 1956. Confused - you should be. Any number above 179 is the result of renumbering.

  • There are three dynamic brake styles on the roof  
    • 100-103 - Square sides but no front or rear box.
    • 104-117 - Rounded sides but no front or rear box
    • 118-179 - Square sides with front and rear box
  • There were two primary headlight treatments, not counting the passenger dual lights.    
    • 100-131 - Nose light with chrome insert giving a 2 step appearance (often the chrome was painted over in later repaints).
    • 132-179 - Smooth rounded nose light
    • 158-168 - Used in passenger service with 2 lights, and some survived after being repainted to freight paint and renumbered.
    • 153 in later years had two sealed beam lights in the single nose light area.
  • Paint schemes varied.    
    • CATR (BCVT1) - Catwhisker with full red stripe, new 1941-45+)
    • CATR2 (BCVT2) - Catwhisker with nose red stripe only, 1947+
    • CAT (BCNT)- Catwhisker with no stripe (all the above with cream yellow), 1951+
    • FTBL - Full blue with cigar nose logo, 1950-52
    • CAT2 - Catwhisker with bolder yellow (CAT lasted at least to 1953 in some form.)
    • CIG  (BYT2) - Cigar band blue and yellow, 1954+ (Design dates October, 1953, although at least one photo is dated 1950, confidently in error, should be 1956)
    • RWB (SRW)- Red Warbonnet passenger scheme, 1945-54
  • Other variations include:    
    • Lifting lugs were added beginning in 1951 and very gradually applied to all. Photos from 1956 show some still did not have them. (Hi-Tech Details 331-6020 is the Santa Fe prototype. I assume a photo in the Warbonnet, 1Q 2001 is mis-labeled.)
    • An air line was added around the fuel tank on the engineers side beginning around 1951.
    • Grab irons on the engineer side of the nose and above the windows (eyebrow grabs) began to show up beginning in 1960.
    • Some cab units gained switching footboards on the pilot around 1950.
    • Some of those switching units either as a single A or as an A-B pair received switching footboards on the rear and a steam Golden Glow headlight on the roof (Cal Scale 190-210).
    • Some of the switching units were paired A-A for branch line service.
    • Trucks show two different styles of journals.
    • One locomotive, 185, was upgraded with stainless grills after a wreck and rebuild.
    • Passenger engines with steam generators in the B unit had vents in adjacent doors.   So this would mean as the engines returned to freight service and the steam generators were removed so were the vents
    • At least one locomotive, 144, received a red light in the nose to serve as a marker when in helper service on Cajon.
    • The 111 in one photo had 111L in the large side number boards.

And on the numbers listed above, these are original numbers. For instance, the original 140C had 3rd version dynamics and 2nd version headlights, but it was renumber 137C. The original 109C later became the 140C, and it had 2nd version dynamics and 1st version headlights. So you can see 2 photos of the 140C and will see different locomotives depending on the date of the photo.

There are three items that are not generally modeled on FTs:

The Stewart model of the FT has the passenger pilot. All Santa Fe models, including the locos used in passenger service, should have a freight pilot. The step should be removed. Precision Scale part 585-3208 can be used for pilot steps (3rd Quarter 1997 issue of the Warbonnet).

Other suggested parts include:

  • Speed  Recorder-----Detail Assoc.  229-2807, Details West 235-284   
  • Windshield Wipers-----A-Line  short 116-29201
  • Air Hoses (A unit pilot)-----Cal Scale   AH 320
suzukovichsuzukovichOGR Forum Member

Part two response

 

  
  

 158L 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Dec445/
      Dec442,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      25752-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.: 
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  10Jun46-29Jun461/Jun464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,ct032,
    repainted:   158L   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,4,50,ct032p
      • headlights:  dualct032p,x122
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  Jul504:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   158L  Jan51-Jan545:
      • paint:  SBCB8,
    repainted:   158L  after Oct5311/before
      22Jun5450p/before 4Jul62x122p:
      • paint:  BYT1
      • headlight:  phase II single50p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band50p
      • number   board:    between headlight and nose
        herald50p,x122p

retired:  31Mar645,x122;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???64-???651/???654
      for GP35 series1

 158C 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   9L

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Dec445/
      Dec442,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      25762-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A49
  order no.:  E6132,3/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  10Jun46-29Jun461/Jun464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   158C   date :
      • paint:  SRW4
      • headlight:  dualx122
      • other:  through steam linesx122
  renumbered:   189L 1,2,4,5,x122
      12Dec491,4,5,x122;
    rebuilt:   location  Jul504:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   189L  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   189L  after Oct5311/before
      4Jul622p,x122:
      • paint:  BYT12p,4,11,x122p
      • headlight:  phase II single2p,x122p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band2p,x122p
      • number   board:    between headlight and nose
        herald2p,x122p
      • other:  exhaust spark arrestorsx122p

retired:  29Jan635,x122/???632;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???62-???631/???634
      for GP30 series1

     

 159L 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Dec445/
      Dec442,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      25792-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A79
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III2p,8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  12Aug46-10Sep461/Sep464:
      • assignment:  passenger service2,4,x122,
    repainted:   159L   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,2p,4,x122p
      • headlights:  dual2p,x122p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band2p,x122p
      • number   board:    between headlights2p,x122p
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    repainted:  159L before 24May502p:
      • paint:  BCVT22p
      • headlights:  dual2p
      • nose   herald:    cat-whiskers2p
      • number   board:    between headlights2p,
    rebuilt:   location  Jul504:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   159L  ???525,8:
      • paint:  SBCB8,
    repainted:   159L  after Oct5311/before
      9Jan6446p:
      • paint:  BYT14,11,46p
      • headlight:  phase II single46p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band46p
      • number   board:    between headlight and nose
        herald46p

retired:  16Jan655,x122;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???64-???651/???654
      for GP35 series1

 159C 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Dec445/
      Dec442,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      25801-3,5,9,10
  frame no.:  E613-A89
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8,51p
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  12Aug46-10Sep46x122/Sep464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   159C   date :
      • paint:  SRWx122:
      • headlights:  dualx122
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location and date :
      • assignment:  freight service,
    repainted:   159C  Jan51-Jan548:
      • paint:  SBCB8,
    repainted:   159C  after Oct5311/before
      13Dec6151p:
      • paint:  BYT14,11,51p
      • headlight:  phase II single51p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band51p
      • number   board:    between headlight and nose
        herald51p

retired:  16Nov545,x122;
  traded:  to EMD1 ???64-???651   for GP35
      series1

     

 160L 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Dec445/
      Dec442,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      25832-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A119
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  Apr464/12Aug46-10Sep461:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   160L   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,4
      • headlights:  dualx122
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  May484:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   160L  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   160L  after Oct5311/before Oct6140:
      • paint:  BYT14,11
      • headlight:  phase II single40p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band40p
      • number   board:    between headlight and nose
        herald40p

retired:  10Apr635,x122/xxx632;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???62-???631/???634
      for GP30 series1

 160C 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Dec445/
      Dec442,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      25842-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A129
  order no.:  E6132,3/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  Apr464/12Aug46-10Sep461,4:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   160C   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,4
      • headlights:  dualx122
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  May484:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   160C  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   160C  after Oct5311:
      • paint:  BYT14,11

retired:  9Apr635,x122/xxx632;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???62-???631/???634
      for GP30 series1

     

 161L 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Jan455/
      Jan452,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      25872-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A159
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14,x122p
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III2p,8,x122p
      • headlight:  phase II single8,x122p
      • nose   herald:    catwhiskersx122p
      • number   board:    below nose heraldx122p
    rebuilt:   location  11Apr46-23Apr461/Apr464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   161L   date :
      • paint:  SRW2p,x122p
      • headlights:  dual2p,x122p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-bandx122p
      • number   board    between headlights2p,x122p
    rebuilt:   location  May48,4:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   161L  after Dec50/before
      22Nov6140:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,40p
      • headlights:  dual40p
      • nose   herald:    cat-whiskers40p
      • number   board:    between headlights40p
    repainted:   161L  after Oct5311/before
      Feb5240/before 12Aug6240/before 22Jul6540:
      • paint:  BYT14,11,40p
      • headlight:  phase II single40p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band40p
      • number   board:    between headlight and nose
        herald40p
      • other:  exhaust spark arrestors40p

retired:  22Sep655,x122;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???64-???651/???654
      for GP35 series1

 161C 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Jan455/
      Jan452,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      25882-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A169
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  11Apr46-23Apr461/Apr464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   161C   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,4
      • headlights:  dualx122
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  May484:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   161C  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   161C  after Oct5311/before Feb6240:
      • paint:  BYT14,11,40p:
      • headlight:  phase II single40p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band40p
      • number   board:    between headlight and nose
        herald40p
      • other:  exhaust spark arrestors40p

retired:  25Sep655,x122;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???64-???651/???654
      for GP35 series1

     

 162L 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Jan455/
      Jan452,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      25912-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A199
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint: BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III2p,8,50p
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  3May46-11May461/May464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,50p,
    repainted:   162L   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,4,50p
      • headlights:  dual; upper red, lower
        white2p,50p,x122
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band50p
      • number   board:    between headlights50p
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  Jul504:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   162C  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   162C  after Oct5311/before
      4Jul602p:
      • paint:  BYT12p,4,11
      • headlights:  dual2p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band2p
      • number   board:    between headlights2p

retired:  26Apr645,x122;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???64-???651/???654
      for GP35 series1

 162C 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
                                                                          189C

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Jan455/
      Jan452,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      25922-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A209
  order no.:  E6132,3/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8,50p
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  3May46-11May461,4/May464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   162C   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,4
      • headlights:  dualx122
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  Jul504:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   162C  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211;
  renumbered:   189C 2,4,5,50p,x122
      14Apr524,5,x122,
    repainted:   189C  after Oct5311:
      • paint:  BYT14,11,50p
      • headlight:  phase II single50p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band50p
      • number   board:    between headlight and nose
        herald50p
      • radio   antenna:    on elevated ground plane50p
      • other:  exhaust spark arrestors50p

retired:  31Mar645,x122;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???64-???651/???654
      for GP35 series1

     

 163L 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Jan455/
      Jan452,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      25952-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A239
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14,51p
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8,51p
      • headlight:  phase II single8,51p
      • nose   herald:    cat-whiskers51p
      • number   board:    below nose herald51p
    rebuilt:   location  21May46-7Jun461/Jun464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   163L   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,44
      • headlights:  dualx122
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  Jul504:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   163L  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   163L  after Oct5311:
      • paint:  BYT14,11

retired:  18Mar605,x122/???02;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???60-???611/???624
      for GP20 series1

 163C 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Jan455/
      Jan452,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      25962-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A249
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint: BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  21May46-7Jun461/Jun464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   163C   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,4
      • headlights:  dualx122
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  Jul504:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   163C  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   163C  after Oct5311:
      • paint:  BYT14,11

retired:  ???632/22Sep655,x122;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???64-???651/???654
      for GP35 series1

     

 164L 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Jan455/
      Jan452,51,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      25992-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A279
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint: BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  6May46-18Jun461/May464/
      Jun4651p:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   164L   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,4:
      • headlights:  dual; upper white, lower
        white51p,x122
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band51p
      • number   board:    between headlights51p
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  Jul504:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   164L  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   164L  after Oct5311:
      • paint:  BYT14,11

retired:  9Apr635,x122/???632;
  traded:  to EMD1,4,51 ???62-???631/
      ???634 for GP30 series1,51

 164C 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Jan455/
      Jan452,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      26002-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A289
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint: BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  6May46-18Jun461/May464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   164C   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,4
      • headlights:  dualx122
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  Jul504:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   164C  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   164C  after Oct5311:
      • paint:  BYT14,11

retired:  23Feb635,x122/???632;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???62-???631/???634
      for GP30 series1

     

 165L 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Jan455/
      Jan452,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      26032-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A319
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint: BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  24Apr46-4May461/May464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   165L   date :
      • paint:  BYT11,4
      • headlights:  dualx122
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  May584:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   165L  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   165L  after Oct5311:
      • paint:  BYT14,11

retired:  29May625,x122/???622;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???62-???631/???634
      for GP30 series1

 165C 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
         186L

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Jan455/
      Jan452,x122/Feb459
  serial no.:
      26042-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A329
  order no.:  E6132,3/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  24Apr46-4May461/May464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   165C   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,2p,4
      • headlights:  dual2p,x122
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band2p
      • number   board:    between headlights2p
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  May484:
      • assignment:  freight service2,4,
  renumbered:   186L 4,5,x122 20May485/
      30May48x122,
    repainted:   186L  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   186L  after Oct5311/before
      28Jun55x122p:
      • paint:  BYT14,11,x122p
      • headlight:  phase II singlex122p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-bandx122p
      • number   board:    between headlight and nose
        heraldx122p

retired:  3Feb635,x122/???632;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???62-???631/???634
      for GP30 series1

     

 166L 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Feb455/
      Feb452,9,x122
  serial no.:
      26072-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A359
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  1Jul46-21Jul461/Jul464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   166L   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,4
      • headlights:  dualx122,
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  Jul504:
      • assignment:  freight service,
    repainted:   166L  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   166L  after Oct5311:
      • paint:  BYT111

retired:  31Mar645,x122;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???64-???651/???654
      for GP35 series1

 166C 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
         187L

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Feb455/
      Feb452,9,x122
  serial no.:
      26082-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A369
  order no.:  E6132,3/
      E613A9,10

delivered:   date :
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  1Jul46-21Jul461,4/Jul464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   166C   date :
      • paint:  SRW1,4
      • headlights:  dualx122,
      • other:  through steam linesx122
  renumbered:   187L 4,5,x122 25Nov495,x122,
    rebuilt:   location  Jul504:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   187L  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   187L  after Oct5311/before
      Jun6440p:
      • paint:  BYT14,11,40p
      • headlight:  phase II single40p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band40p
      • number   board:    between headlight and nose
        herald40p
      • other:  exhaust spark arrestors40p

retired:  13Jun655,x122;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???64-???651/???654
      for GP35 series1

     

 167L 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Feb455/
      Feb451,2,6,9,x122
  serial no.:
      26091-6,9,10
  frame no.:  E613-A379
  order no.:  E6132,3,12/
      E613A9,10

delivered:  14Feb454:
      • assignment:  passenger service4
      • paint:  BCVT11,4,7
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlights:  dual50p,x122
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    repainted:   167L  ???464:
      • paint:  SRW4,6,7,50p
      • headlights:  dual; upper white, lower
        white50p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band50p
      • number   board:    between headlights50p
    rebuilt:  EMD Jan50,
    rebuilt:   location  Jul504:
      • assignment:  freight service4
      • headlight:  phase II single54p
      • number   board:    between headlight and nose
        herald54p,
    repainted:   167L  Jul504/before 27Aug5754p:
      • paint:  BYT14,54p

retired:  31Mar645,x122;
  traded:  to EMD1,4,54 Feb646/???64-
     ???651/???654 for GP35 series1,6,54  

 167C 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
         188L
 
 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1Feb455/
      Feb452,9,x122
  serial no.:
      26102-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E613-A389
  order no.:  E6132,3/
      E613A9,10

delivered:  14Feb454:
      • assignment:  passenger service4:
      • paint:  BCVT11,4,7
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlights:  dualx122
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    repainted:   167C  ???464:
      • paint:  SRW4,7;
  renumbered:   188L 2,4,5,x122 11Nov495,x122,
    repainted:   188L  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   188L  after Oct5311:
      • paint:  BYT14,11

retired:  12May645,x122;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???64-???651/???654
      for GP35 series1

     

 168L 

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1May455/
      May452,9,x122
  serial no.:
      32992-5,9,10,x122
  frame no.:  E669-A19
  order no.:  E6692,3,12/
      E669A9,10

delivered:  May454:
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  22Jul46-10Aug461/Aug464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   168L  Aug464:
      • paint:  SRW1,4
      • headlights:  dualx122
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    rebuilt:   location  Dec514:
      • assignment:  freight service4,
    repainted:   168L  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   168L  Dec514/after Oct5311:
      • paint:  BYT14,11

retired:  30May625,x122/???622;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???62-???631/
     May624 for GP30 series1

 168C:1 
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
         415L
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
         142C:3

FTA

builder:  EMD1,x122
  date:  1May455/
      May452,9,x122
  serial no.:
      33001,3-5,9,10
  frame no.:  E669-A29
  order no.:  E6692,3/
      E669A9,10

delivered:  May454:
      • assignment:  freight service
      • paint:  BCVT14
      • dynamic   brake housing:    phase III8
      • headlight:  phase II single8
      • nose   herald:   
      • number   board:   
    rebuilt:   location  22Jul46-10Aug461/Aug464:
      • assignment:  passenger service4,
    repainted:   168C  Dec514/before 4Dec52x122p:
      • paint:  SRW1,4,x122p;
  renumbered:   415L 2,4,5,x122 28Apr505/
      28May50x122,
    rebuilt:   location  after ???534:
      • assignment:  freight service4,x122
      • headlights:  dualx122p
      • number   board:    between headlightsx122p
      • other:  through steam linesx122
    repainted:   415L  after Dec50:
      • paint:  BCNT/BCVT211,
    repainted:   415L  after Oct5311:
      • paint:  BYT14,11
      • headlight:  phase II single50p
      • nose   herald:    cigar-band50p
      • number   board:    between headlight and nose
        herald50p;
  renumbered:  142C4,x122/  142C:3 2,5
      21Oct565,x122

retired:  1Oct61x122/10Oct615/???612;
  traded:  to EMD1,4 ???60-???611/???624
      for GP20 series1

suzukovichsuzukovichOGR Forum Member

 

Bottom  line the converted units which was done in house, did get the vents in the doors due to the field testing 167 prior to being used in passenger service. The original order did not have the vents. From what I could find the vents were incorporated into the converted units to provide increase cooling and air circulation around the steam generators to dissipate the heat. When the units were reconverted to freight service, it was just a matter of replacing doors. Modeling would just be simple. cut 4 pieces of styrene and glue in place. If you want to show the actual vent screens then you will need to perform minor surgery.  

markermarkerOGR Forum Member

Bottom  line the converted units which was done in house, did get the vents in the doors due to the field testing 167 prior to being used in passenger service. The original order did not have the vents. From what I could find the vents were incorporated into the converted units to provide increase cooling and air circulation around the steam generators to dissipate the heat. When the units were reconverted to freight service, it was just a matter of replacing doors. Modeling would just be simple. cut 4 pieces of styrene and glue in place. If you want to show the actual vent screens then you will need to perform minor surgery.  

That's pretty much what I posted.  I agree with this post.  I also mentioned that I wanted to do the with the covers using styrene.  I used the term Plastruct.

 

BTW you described it very succinctly.  Thank you. 

 

I think that the following is the point of contention.  

 

Try to follow what I am saying.  Pictures show #158 freshly converted to passenger service.  There is no scaring of the coupler (silver) with indicates it hasn't been used in service.  The side doors have the vents installed.  Therefore the engine never ran in passenger livery without the vents.

suzukovichsuzukovichOGR Forum Member

Stephen

 

What it means is that 167 was delivered in the freight scheme( no vents at the steam generator locations) After the completion of the testing,evaluation and feasibility of the FT for passenger service. ATSF converted 10 freight units. from what I can find and I am still trying to confirm actual time lines. Is some of the converted units were delivered without the vents and were added at a later time. There are pics of some of the converted units without the vents. All 10 units did receive the vents. Right now I can not tell you if 167 ever received the vents(something else I am trying to confirm). So for modeling purposes. The FTs in Passenger service( 46-53 ) most of the FTs were reassigned to freight service by December 1950 and this is important. You can add the vent covers. The date/Time group will determine if the engine is in War bonnet or freight colors.  Due to the length in time ATSF used the FT in passenger service . It makes perfect sense why you don't see FTs in War bonnet scheme with vents being built by 3rd Rail and others. ATSF FTs were all used as freight units. It was plain economic sense that they used one shell. Especially this mod can be done ourselves. This should answer the original OPED posted. Now in defense of the original OPED posted. If I am going to pay $2000.00 or more per unit (ABBA =$ 8000.00) I would expect those vents/ vent covers to be there.

 

Just so you all know I am CB&Q/GN guy.

Last edited by suzukovich
B bob2OGR Forum Member

BTW you described it very succinctly.  Thank you. 

 

That was Marker, describing the three very long and detailed posts by Suzukovich.

 

Informative - yes.  Succinct - no.  I am with Stephen here - is the definitive statement by Marker at the end of his post correct - there were no FTs in Warbonnet paint ever without these vents?  And when do we get a photo showing these vents clearly?

 

If I were going to spring for one of these, a missing vent would not be a deal breaker, unless it was one of those above the portholes.

suzukovichsuzukovichOGR Forum Member

Bob2

 

I cant tell you about the paint thing that was marker. What I do know those photos were taken after 161 was rebuilt.  The only engine that right now seems to never had the vents installed was 167abba. but I am still trying to run that one down. Had to play soccer dad/doctor today. You know stuff you do when its summer vacation and you have school age kids and finish repairing a brand new engine and two upgrades. So tomorrow I will continue the research.

 

Remember I am a CB&Q/GN type of guy.

S SteinzeitOGR Forum Member

Some questions:

 

1.  The A units did not have steam generators, right ?  So if they were fitted with door vents then there must be "another" reason why their doors got vents too ?

 

2.  The B unit tanks were 100% water ?  So fuel was piped over from the A ?

 

3.  Explanation of "cab signal inductive coils" ?  This must be some form of intermittent system, like an ATS inductive system -- but it's different from the ATSF pickup shoe system I'm familiar with.  Did these units operate over trackage that had two different systems, or did ATSF change, or what ? [ See edit below ]

 

4.  Did ATSF run these units primarily in mountain territories -- say, west of Pueblo / Clovis [ because they had d/b ] and hand off to other power for the flatter runs -- or did they run "coast to coast "?

 

"The more you know..."

 

Best rgds, SZ 

 

Edited to add:   Answers own question:  At the time the passenger FT's were delived the only ATS system in service on the ATSF was apparently that east from Shopton, which no doubt dated from the ICC "at least one division" order.  Later, when the ICC issued its "greater than 79 mph" order, the ATSF went with a newer, better system on new installations, and must have retrofitted it to the original district as well.

 

Last edited by Steinzeit
SW Simon WinterOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by marker:
Except for one EMD Santa Fe FT passenger unit #167LABC, all the rest of the Santa Fe passenger FT's were delivered as freight units in the freight paint scheme. 

 

That means all Santa Fe passenger War Bonnet FT's except for 167LABC only existed with the vents.

 

To say that GM never delivered the FT's with vents is too simplified and a distortion because GM didn't deliver 10 of the passenger FT's to Santa Fe set up for passenger service.  Santa Fe installed the steam generators and made the other modifications necessary.  When the 10 engines came out of the Santa Fe shops ready for passenger service, they had the vents in the side doors.

 

Therefore except for 167LABC which was delivered 14 months before the Santa Fe shop modified units, none of the other passenger FT's are correct without vents in the doors.

 


 

Not trying to be an agitator or throw a verbal "pie" at anyone's face, so don't take offense.

 

The print on this thread (at least that on my monitor) is PAINFULLY SMALL, and difficult to read. Keeping that in mind, from my reading of this thread, it is my understanding that only one FT (167) was delivered from EMD in war bonnet paint, and it did not have the "controversial" vents. Thus no war bonnet engines ever had factory installed vents.

 

Have I got that right?

 

Tahnks,

Simon

Last edited by Simon Winter
R Rule292OGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Number 90:
Originally Posted by hibar:

I believe it was stated in a previous post this was a RR shop mod,GM did not deliver the FTs with vents in the doors. the cause of all the reaction to this thread was the original poster stating this was a mistake by the importers when in reality it was a later mod by the RRs that the importers choose not to include on the models they imported . . .

Ah, we're back to reasonable discussion.  Let's stay there, please.

 

By the way, I have studied Santa Fe engines and their details for over 60 years -- even seen rednose passenger FT's up close -- and I had never noticed the door vents until they were pointed out in John McCall's Warbonnet article.  A tip of my hat to Brother McCall.

Heck Tom, I think you've even OPERATED some Santa Fe engines, lol...

It is good to see a civil but rambunctious discussion... 

 

Because after all one of the goals of our hobby should be to spread accurate information.  

 

And some of the fun is building a chronology of how and when things were built and when the many changes were made to them. 

 

Yep, manufacturers can't produce EVERY little variation, and most of us understand that.

 

But discussing them all makes for a more wel-informed modeler and that is a good thing.

 

 

suzukovichsuzukovichOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Steinzeit:

Some questions:

 

1.  The A units did not have steam generators, right ?  So if they were fitted with door vents then there must be "another" reason why their doors got vents too ?

 

2.  The B unit tanks were 100% water ?   Yes   So fuel was piped over from the A ?  I will get an answer for you

 

3.  Explanation of "cab signal inductive coils" ?  This must be some form of intermittent system, like an ATS inductive system -- but it's different from the ATSF pickup shoe system I'm familiar with.  Did these units operate over trackage that had two different systems, or did ATSF change, or what ? [ See edit below ]

 

4.  Did ATSF run these units primarily in mountain territories -- say, west of Pueblo / Clovis [ because they had d/b ] and hand off to other power for the flatter runs -- or did they run "coast to coast "?  The FTs operated on all the major passenger runs The Chief, El Capitan etc. Their success led to ATSF ordering F3/F7s for passenger service.

 

"The more you know..."

 

Best rgds, SZ 

 

Edited to add:   Answers own question:  At the time the passenger FT's were delived the only ATS system in service on the ATSF was apparently that east from Shopton, which no doubt dated from the ICC "at least one division" order.  Later, when the ICC issued its "greater than 79 mph" order, the ATSF went with a newer, better system on new installations, and must have retrofitted it to the original district as well. Thanks one less thing to research.

 

 

suzukovichsuzukovichOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Simon Winter:
Originally Posted by marker:
Except for one EMD Santa Fe FT passenger unit #167LABC, all the rest of the Santa Fe passenger FT's were delivered as freight units in the freight paint scheme. 

 

That means all Santa Fe passenger War Bonnet FT's except for 167LABC only existed with the vents.

 

To say that GM never delivered the FT's with vents is too simplified and a distortion because GM didn't deliver 10 of the passenger FT's to Santa Fe set up for passenger service.  Santa Fe installed the steam generators and made the other modifications necessary.  When the 10 engines came out of the Santa Fe shops ready for passenger service, they had the vents in the side doors.

 

Therefore except for 167LABC which was delivered 14 months before the Santa Fe shop modified units, none of the other passenger FT's are correct without vents in the doors.

 


 

Not trying to be an agitator or throw a verbal "pie" at anyone's face, so don't take offense. None taken, I like pie

 

The print on this thread (at least that on my monitor) is PAINFULLY SMALL, and difficult to read. Keeping that in mind, from my reading of this thread, it is my understanding that only one FT (167) was delivered from EMD in war bonnet paint, and it did not have the "controversial" vents. 167 was delivered in the freight scheme and did not have the vents as delivered from EMC/EMD

 

Thus no war bonnet engines ever had factory installed vents.   The other 10 were converted in house by ATSF

 

Have I got that right?

 

Tahnks, Thanks

Simon

Simon

I wrote this earlier

 

What it means is that 167 was delivered in the freight scheme( no vents at the steam generator locations) After the completion of the testing, evaluation and feasibility of the FT for passenger service. ATSF converted 10 freight units. from what I can find and I am still trying to confirm actual time lines. Is some of the converted units were delivered without the vents and were added at a later time. There are pics of some of the converted units without the vents. All 10 units did receive the vents. Right now I can not tell you if 167 ever received the vents(something else I am trying to confirm). So for modeling purposes. The FTs in Passenger service( 46-53 ) most of the FTs were reassigned to freight service by December 1950 and this is important. You can add the vent covers. The date/Time group will determine if the engine is in War bonnet or freight colors.

 

S SteinzeitOGR Forum Member

So, if the vents weren't because of the sg [ since they were also on the A units ], what were they for ?  I am going to suggest they were to provide cooler air for the traction motor blowers [ since FT's apparently had some TM cooling problems ].

 

I am now going to go MUCH further out on a limb and suggest that it is possible some "real freight" [ ie, never warbonneted ] ATSF FT's may have had these vents as well, since they would be subject to the same problems.  Certainly many FT sets seem to have been photo'd with their doors open, which could be called the initial fix.  I think the door vents were the second fix, and I imagine there was a later, more definitive fix that was internal only;  the transfer of FT's from first line mountain duty to flatter areas undoubtedly helped, too.

 

See the photo of 117LABC taken in early 45 on Cajon that appears in the SFM 3Q 91 issue referenced above;  are those vents in the doors ??

 

Best rgds, SZ

Last edited by Steinzeit
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