Smoke fluid: There has to be a better way...

Smoke units, even when operating perfectly, are deteriorating, to some degree. There's no way to completely prevent some charring of the batting under normal operating conditions. I'm guessing that we should all get comfortable with removing and repacking smoke units if we want to avoid numerous trips to the repair facility.

I would like to see more of a "plug and play" standardized smoke unit that could be easily accessed and held in by magnets or a spring (See GunRunnerJohn's recent post on a Brass install) without requiring so much disassembly. Maybe it would allow us to have a few spares ready to go as well if a replacement is required.

I'd also like to see some sort of thermal shutoff to keep a unit from being run dry.

I too find myself somewhat relieved when I decide not to run smoke as I don't have to worry about keeping a keen eye on the smoke volume and refilling before damage occurs. We only run smoke on our steam units but I run on the high setting as I like as much smoke as possible.

I agree totally. So much new whiz bang stuff has been added but the smoke units are still crude and a pain.

banelson posted:

... it’s a lot of fun, but I feel like every time I commit to adding fluid I am risking destroying the engine by either adding too much fluid, or maybe destroying the smoke unit by not adding enough...

Oh the worries that postwar operators don't have. Fill it, run 'em wet, run 'em dry, don't fill 'em, run 'em some more. No damage.

I agree with the comments above.    Actually a design that would add some longevity to the batting material from scorching would be a step in the right direction.     However,  it’s a great business model.    Perpetual business with repair or parts.      

ADCX Rob posted:

banelson posted:

... it’s a lot of fun, but I feel like every time I commit to adding fluid I am risking destroying the engine by either adding too much fluid, or maybe destroying the smoke unit by not adding enough...

Oh the worries that postwar operators don't have. Fill it, run 'em wet, run 'em dry, don't fill 'em, run 'em some more. No damage.

Remember the window displays when we were kids ?   Trains ran for hours in store windows.  I would imagine that some of the trains had the smoke units disconnected.  

On the K-line by Lionel sd70's a portion of the roof is removable with the smoke unit attached to it.  Very easy to service and no need to disassemble the entire body from the chassis

I think some of the engine designers should meet some cloud chasing vapers.  The technology found in modern electronic cigarettes is what you're looking for, Banelson.  Devices that don't leak (mostly) are easy to fill and show how much fluid is left, and use simple, easy to replace parts.  For what it's worth they also come in thousands of flavors and in zero nicotine forms, making the "smoke" much safer than the dated idea of heating mineral oil.  

Dan Padova posted:

Remember the window displays when we were kids ?   Trains ran for hours in store windows.  I would imagine that some of the trains had the smoke units disconnected.  

Doubt it very much. No need to disconnect - the pellet runs out, loco keeps running.

Some of you guys are over thinking, obsessing, and psycho analyzing smoke fluid in your locomotives. Slow your brains down. Add I eye dropper full of smoke fluid every time you are finished running. When you run again you will be good to go for a long run. Do it the same every time. Yes, once a year or two, you will have to re pack (I do a new resistor, only a couple bucks) the smoke unit. Nick

rockstars1989 posted:

Some of you guys are over thinking, obsessing, and psycho analyzing smoke fluid in your locomotives. Slow your brains down. Add I eye dropper full of smoke fluid every time you are finished running. When you run again you will be good to go for a long run. Do it the same every time. Yes, once a year or two, you will have to re pack (I do a new resistor, only a couple bucks) the smoke unit. Nick

This. I've never had a problem filling smoke units. It's not rocket science. Half a dropper. Smoke output drops add another half dropper. Done.

It woud cost about $30 or more per unit by my guess for a "level" sensor. 

  "Destroy" electronics with a smoke fluid overflow? Not ideal but shouldn't be that devastating... just messy.  ...Unless the board layer edges arent sealed.   Glycerin & mineral oil .... "beauty products" And some scent and throw a baby oil logo on it

Some engines you could seal up very near spill proof. All I've seen had a gasket .

The motors are bit more robust that folks percive imo. They just arent that easy to seal imo also.

  I've only had the regulators fail.  They could use a sink or better specs product..

A humidity sensor in smoke chamber could apoximate level for an early warning light.... or shut down, etc.

A temp. sensor like the make & break of your coffee pot warmer is another option. (might fit in there, but even agains the chamber outside might help...? )

I hear this stuff called asbestos doesn't burn 😲

Heat proof silicone hairs for wicking? (I love my oven mits )

I don't think they are getting rich off of batting and resistors. Ther are just way more profits in other things right now.

I think some of the new high dollar jewels will shut off if you run dry.

I've gotten pretty good at rebuilding the units as there output decreases.

The truth is the basic design today dates back some 60+ years to the beginning of smoke in trains.  This kind of a post develops all kind of opinions with little fact and ideas. A ceramic  combustion chamber below the stack and a sealed fluid reservoir to feed it with a hot resister in the ceramic piece would work. You would need a way to get the fluid in to the chamber with a small simple pump would work or pressurize the fuel tank.There is another simple way to do it also.

Well, there is some ceramic involved already. 

  The real difference between new and old is the resistor has more "real-world" applications and ease of construction over a quality, ni-chrome wrapped, ceramic disc (pw style). . Wicking is an excellent delivery method, it's being heatproof that's the issue.  Plus you want the anti-slosh batting be able to wick to dry.  Seuth and others proved big wet revoirs are a huge mess if something tips.  "Batting style" is #1.

   Saying this is scary because of costs associated with them, and I don't have issues with any of the current feature really, but a ceramic heating "dish" and an "inkjet injection" seem interesting items to ponder imo. I think ink is by far the most expensive part of a cartridge. 

I wonder how small oxygen sensors are now ?

  Are we closer a "fluid injection" and controlled/monitored use rates yet 

i've also been giving this problem some thought, and may have a solution for all of us to use. i bought a sleuth smoke unit, hope i spelled that right,  only to find  after i got it that you have to buy a syringe to inject the fluid into it .well, that sucks. the syringe  increases the price of the unit by a fair amount, and looks like injecting the fluid might be prone to a problem, unless the owner has real good eyes and steady hands.This engine is made of two old prairie steamers with their motor units tack welded together and a very  well done job  of mating the front shell of one engine to the rear of the second. I don't know who made it but its quite elegant and quite a bit longer than any other engine i have. 

So i'm going to buy another smoke unit to sacrifice. i'll chuck it up in my milling vice vice and gently cut in half  lengthwise then study it to find out where the absorbent matl. is ,measure it carefully and drill a very small hole in my other unit and put a short needle into it, glue it into the side  then connect it to some surgical tubing and run the tubing out the back of the engine cab to somewhere higher in my tender of the  where i will place a small flat tank with a fill port and pencil eraser plug. 

 if you've ever been in the hospital you know one of the first things they do is put you on a saline drip to keep you hydrated and insure that you gain a bunch of water weight. On this tubing is a small valve that allows the to adjust the flow down to as little as one drop every two or three every minutes. it should be able to deliver exactly the correct amount of fluid to the unit after some experimentation.

   One thing to remember is that you'll have one force of nature going for you and another going against you although they might be the same. In a static position, at rest, with the power on, gravity will help  to keep the fluid flowing and the smoke coming out. However when the engine is chugging along, the fluid will be slightly pushed back toward the tank-so you will have to ensure that the elevation of the tank is high enough to ensure the constant flow of fluid. but a bit of experimentation will solve this problem. it might become necessary to decide which method to stick to. either sitting still til you turn it off or to keep it flying around your layout til you shut off. There's no free lunch and you would have to elevate the front of engine after each use, may i suggest a spur track that rises at it's end enough to make sure  the intake in the  smoke unit is higher than the tank. run the  engine in neutral until it quits smoking, then shut it off thus allowing any small amount of fluid in the smoke unit to slowly flow back into the tank thus slowing down the failure of the unit.I'm going to order my second unit tomorrow and will update you on my progress as it happens. Wish me luck.   

beertrain posted:

i've also been giving this problem some thought, and may have a solution for all of us to use.

This is by far the best post I've read in a long time.  When you have it ready for aftermarket sale, let us know.

jim pastorius posted:

... ceramic  combustion chamber below the stack and a sealed fluid reservoir...

I'm looking to avoid any & all combustion in a smoke unit.

This I completely agree with! I have a pair of K4Ss and they are an absolute pain to keep smoking properly. Ones been sent out for repair twice with a bad smoke unit and I believe it now has an MTH unit installed.

Nothing like combustion to get your attention!🧯 Remember you are not actually burning the smoke fluid, only turning it into a vapor.

I would suggest the train makers find out what makes the postwar stuff work so well. After I put my 675 on the track before Christmas, it smokes after sitting on a shelf for 11 months. Over the 4 week period, I add more fluid once. Same with my 681 and 736. And no, they don't need to be running fast to do this. I have 2 Lionel TMCC engines that barely smoke at all.

One thing I can say about MTH is they know how to make a train engine smoke.

I haven't had a chance to read through this entire thread but here is my first thought on the question.

If the boiler fronts on steam locomotives were made as a separate piece that is easily removable (say mounted by spring clips inside the boiler), could the smoke unit be mounted on the inside of the boiler front so that it could be removed for servicing and smoke fluid addition?

MELGAR

About 10 or 12 years ago, I invented N-scale smoke.

I wonder if the same idea would work for O-gauge?

ON ALMOST ALL POSTWAR LIONEL STEAMERS THE FRONT OF THE BOILER WAS REMOVABLE SO YOU COULD CHANGE THE LIGHT BULB WHEN IT BURNED OUT. YOU WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE OVER TO AN LED, WEE TINY AND GRIND OFF THE OLD BULB HOUSING TO INSTALL THE SMOKE UNIT. AND YOU MIGHT STILL HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SPACING, BECAUSE THE OUTPUT FROM THE SMOKE GENERATOR IS USUALLY   NOT BENDABLE BENDABLE. SOLVABLE FOR SURE BUT IT WOULD TAKE SOME CAREFUL MEASURING TO INSURE SUCCESS IT WOULDN'T BE A SIMPLE PROCESS OF THROWING IN SOME GLUE AND THE SMOKE UNIT AND BE ON YOUR MERRY WAY. HOPE THIS HELPS.

Yes, a better way would be nice.

I am the destroyer of smoke units; started into the hobby in 2014 with Legacy engines and totally ignorant of caring for smoke units; as a child, I had a 1954? American flyer steamer with a smoke unit that I either never filled or when I wanted smoke just added a full dropper to the stack - worked every time; now, with the legacys I have overfilled or starved them - really messed up my Big Boy. 

I have been experimenting with 1 drop of Lionel fluid for each minute of use; add 10-12 drops after 10 minutes; so far no issues.  Final verdict when I open an engine up and see the batting.

banelson posted:

I generally run my engines without smoke, and not because I don’t enjoy it.  Frankly it’s a lot of fun, but I feel like every time I commit to adding fluid I am risking destroying the engine by either adding too much fluid, or maybe destroying the smoke unit by not adding enough.  In my personal opinion, if someone could engineer a method to add smoke fluid in an way that wasn’t messy and could show me how much fluid was in there and how much was necessary it would be the best improvement possible to the engines I buy.  I would then feel confident using the smoke features and really enjoying the engines.  Is it impossible to create a reservoir that is sealed and cannot leak on the electronics?  Is it also impossible not to find a way to show how much fluid is in there, and when it needs more?  I see comens about adding too much fluid, not enough etc... but how the heck are you supposed to ever know what is going on in there to know what is too much or not enough??  

I added smoke fluid to my Vision Niagara last weekend and the smoke features are working fine (although the water scoop effect is hard to see and not that interesting to me).  However, since I added fluid the front headlight is now working intermittently or dim.  So now I wonder... did I add too much?  Did I somehow not position it correctly into the stack?  Maybe it is something else, it just seems odd that it happened after I added the smoke fluid (yes I followed the instructions). Regardless, it is a “black hole” and I have no freaking clue if I did something wrong or not.  

Please, if you guys could engineer an idiot proof method for adding smoke fluid it would make using these engines so much more relaxing and fun (at least for me)!  

Thanks,

Ben 

Hi Ben,

Go down to your local drug store and buy a 3 ML syringe with a long needle attached.  Draw up 1 ML of smoke fluid and stick the needle all the way down into the batting.  Be sure the smoke unit is off before doing this.  Stick the needle all the way down into the batting and inject the fluid.  Wait a little bit before turning it on because the fluid will have to wick up to the heating element.  After a minute or two,  turn the smoke on and you should have a good amount of smoke.  No more over filling and no more blowing down the chamber to remove bubbles.  You also want see any fluid blowing out of the top from the fan.  When the smoke level begins to dissipate,  go ahead and add .5 ML of fluid in the same manner.  Mike Reagan has a video on YouTube on using this trick.  It has worked extremely well for me.

Blake

My friend was giving her cat ear drops and I scarfed up the syringe.  It is 1.0 mls, blunt tip(no needle), marked off in tenths of a ml. Perfect for smoke fluid. Check with a vet or druggist.

jim pastorius posted:

My friend was giving her cat ear drops and I scarfed up the syringe.  It is 1.0 mls, blunt tip(no needle), marked off in tenths of a ml. Perfect for smoke fluid. Check with a vet or druggist.

That’ll work too Jim!!

The needle to the batting method is the best for locomotives that provide a straight shot from the stack to the batting; I like the idea of 5ml per dose (don't know how many drops that is). I like the cat syringe!

For other more intricate locomotives like the Big Boy or the tender on the Niagara, there is no straight shot to the batting; instead there is a cavernous funnel leading to the smoke unit.  For example, on the Big Boy, there is a dual chamber funnel from the stack to its dual smoke units.  On the Niagara tender, there is a long channel leading to its smoke unit.

I never add fluid to a hot smoke unit; I wait till it cools first; I think that was from Mike R.

In the current design, you have to periodically take the shell off and top of the smoke unit to check the batting; if it is hardened, then time to replace.

To get an idea of what is in a smoke unit, look at Laidoffsicks videos here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRcpFRtA6IY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1asUWbJtfok

I don't add fluid to a hot smoke unit either UNLESS I am cleaning a unit to make it smoke. I have been successful with about 10 post war units back to life without tearing anything apart-if the unit gets hot.  Some of my post war engines were packed away for a year and smoked when I first ran them. Using my own fluid.

Wonder if using water, as used in steam clothes irons, could work and what drawbacks there could be?  

Higher temperatures, conductivity, and corrosion come to mind. 

Just musing...

Kelunaboy posted:

Wonder if using water, as used in steam clothes irons, could work and what drawbacks there could be?  

Higher temperatures, conductivity, and corrosion come to mind. 

Just musing...

There's also the issue of the water shorting out the electronics if it leaks out of the smoke unit.

I too am leery about adding smoke, wondering whether I have added too much or too little.  For example, I just purchased the Lionel 1823050 Mickey Celebration LionChief Set and the only problem was with the smoke unit.  I initially put ten drops of Lionel smoke fluid in and the engine produced adequate smoke puffs in sequence with the chugging sound like it is suppose to do.  When the smoke started to lessen, I placed four more drops in and then the engine stopped producing any smoke at all.  Yes, I did blow into the smoke stack to clear any possible air bubbles.  I thought that maybe I had overfilled the smoke unit; but a Lionel and a MTH factory certified technician who was present at the Paradise & Pacific layout at the time, did not think that was the case with the amount that I added.  He put three more drops in and ran the engine awhile, then felt the area by the resistor and indicated that it was warm; he was at a loss to explain why the smoke unit had stopped working without taking things apart. 

After reading all of the posts, especially the ones about using a needle to add smoke directly into the batting, and watching the recommended YouTube videos, I feel that I have a better understanding and I just wanted to thank everyone for their ideas/suggestions on this matter.

Janet Mattern (TCA and LCCA member)

Its really no different than anything else. Learn how it works, take it apart, see how much fluid it will hold before puddling up, make a note/chart, and you can go a year or more at max performance between changing the batting. 

I used to get frustrated with them until I understood how they worked. Now its just fun to smoke out the room and keep them smoking at max volume.

I went to a local pharmacy today, explained what I wanted and the purpose and hey gave me two  10 ml  syringes with lots on markings on the side. No more trying to cont drops using an eye dropper.  Also got(free) a small plastic measuring cup to measure my smoke ingredients.

Blake Morris posted:  

  Go down to your local drug store and buy a 3 ML syringe with a long needle attached.  Draw up 1 ML of smoke fluid and stick the needle all the way down into the batting.  Be sure the smoke unit is off before doing this.  Stick the needle all the way down into the batting and inject the fluid.  Wait a little bit before turning it on because the fluid will have to wick up to the heating element.  After a minute or two,  turn the smoke on and you should have a good amount of smoke.  No more over filling and no more blowing down the chamber to remove bubbles.  You also want see any fluid blowing out of the top from the fan.  When the smoke level begins to dissipate,  go ahead and add .5 ML of fluid in the same manner.  Mike Reagan has a video on YouTube on using this trick.  It has worked extremely well for me.

Blake

This poses a possible solution for some units.  The real issue can often be how much is left in the resevoir. 

  If we are smart, during a rebuild we find out exactly how much it takes to fill it correctly, dump the excess and reassemble.

 If we sucked up the fluid with a syringe, or measured the pour off, we can figure out how much it takes to saturate the batting too.

 Before a refill, with a needle that can reach the bottom of the reservois, suck out he excess, then top off the syringe  and inject.  You should be right on the button.

  If its dry, saturate it first or leave the amount it took to bench saturate it in the tool.

  My units are all easy to fill but one. I don't sweat it or have issues there, but there is a "Mr Glass" for every occasion. I like the challenge as well as the Rube Goldberg's it takes to get there.

The toy G and "common toy" units sometimes use distilled water, (drops of) vegetable oil, and or glycerin mixes. Nothing to brag about, but works. I'm guessing the oil/glycerin is to improve wicking or cloudiness of vapor..? . Maybe even "lube" against corrosion?

I have simple suggestion that I think would help:  Design the smoke fluid reservoir so that when it overflows, it drains underneath the engine onto the track.  So the operator can fill or even overfill all they want.  If they see excess fluid dripping out of the bottom of the engine, they know the reservoir is at capacity and to stop adding fluid.  No concerns about damaging electronics.  No new technology needed.

Maybe a bladder, pan, or catch tank to be drained? Overflow should be minimal really, so very small. Even a restricted tube might be big enough.

Messes are one of the issues, it has to be tidy.

  It all has me imagining opening a boiler door or body panel to view a sight glass.

  Cab mount?(ideally as close to the unit as possible, but hey, most track is kinda level and ideally, its sealed). Not exactly scale but model airplane air/fuel brass fittings are super tiny; like 1:48 whistle tiny, smaller than some weedwacker fittings. Add a 3/8" long piece of clear tube and you have a sight glass.