Sorting Out Lionel Control Systems: Conventional, LC, LC+, LC+ 2.0, TMCC, and Legacy (and some Bluetooth mixed throughout)

What is your definition of the "TMCC" or "Legacy Environment" ?

I like what you've got going here. I see a lot of posts from people asking for answers that you have in your chart. It looks accurate to me as well.

MichRR714 posted:

What is your definition of the "TMCC" or "Legacy Environment" ?

Essentially, 18 Volts of track power, but with the command/legacy base connected.  For example, I can operate a LC Polar Express with its dedicated remote while you operate a TMCC/Legacy locomotive (with a TMCC/Legacy remote) on the same track (18v connected to command/legacy base). 

JD2035RR posted:

MichRR714 posted:

What is your definition of the "TMCC" or "Legacy Environment" ?

Essentially, 18 Volts of track power, but with the command/legacy base connected.  For example, I can operate a LC Polar Express with its dedicated remote while you operate a TMCC/Legacy locomotive (with a TMCC/Legacy remote) on the same track (18v connected to command/legacy base). 

I figured that's what you were getting at.  TMCC or Legacy environment sounds more complex than 18 volts on the track.

It's really not that complicated of a subject. There are just two basic systems, conventional and command.

Conventional requires that you vary the voltage to the rails.

Command the rails get full power.

Within the command group, you have LionChief, TMCC and Legacy. The difference  between LC and TMCC/Legacy is internal. With TMCC/Legacy there is a command base that sends out a signal over the rails. With LC, the dedicated remote talks directly to the engine, cutting out the middle man as it were.

Edit: The command group also includes Bluetooth and all three incarnations of LionChief. Bluetooth is most similar to LionChief as it communicates directly with the locomotive through the air, and has no track signal.

Davety posted:

I like what you've got going here. I see a lot of posts from people asking for answers that you have in your chart. It looks accurate to me as well.

Thanks Davety.  I haven’t seen a copy of the new catalog yet, so my understanding of LC+ 2.0 is based on what I have read on the forum.  I will try to update if it’s different than what I currently think. 

Great chart!   You could add one column would answer my question.     Does the Lionchief+ 2.0 run on DC and AC like the LC+ and LC does? If it doesn't it should be called TMCC with BlueTooth or Legacy lite.

Jim

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

It's really not that complicated of a subject. There are just two basic systems, conventional and command.

Conventional requires that you vary the voltage to the rails.

Command the rails get full power.

Within the command group, you have LionChief, TMCC and Legacy. The difference  between LC and TMCC/Legacy is internal. With TMCC/Legacy there is a command base that sends out a signal over the rails. With LC, the dedicated remote talks directly to the engine, cutting out the middle man as it were.

Thank you for saying this!    I fully concur.  Even my 81 year old dad, who received his first set in the 40's, understands this, and is still active with me on my layout.

My personal feeling is that Lionel is trying to move towards a system that let's you use one remote (should you choose) while not obsoleting current systems.  The evolution of this will take some time.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

It's really not that complicated of a subject. There are just two basic systems, conventional and command.

Conventional requires that you vary the voltage to the rails.

Command the rails get full power.

Within the command group, you have LionChief, TMCC and Legacy. The difference  between LC and TMCC/Legacy is internal. With TMCC/Legacy there is a command base that sends out a signal over the rails. With LC, the dedicated remote talks directly to the engine, cutting out the middle man as it were.

I don't disagree with what you say, none of this is rocket science (although your layout might actually be rocket science ), but it is more nuanced than that.  Some of the LC and LC+ can be operated via the LC App, others can not, while now some can presumably be controlled by TMCC/Legacy base/remote, while others can not.  Legacy engines can be operated with TMCC, but you can not access all of the Legacy features, etc.  Some Legacy can be controlled by the LC app and LC universal controller, others can not.  These were the kinds of nuanced questions I was aiming to answer and put in one place, easily readable.

David - I think part of what we're seeing with Lionel is them trying to keep up with changing technologies. By introducing Bluetooth to the equation, they've allowed people to bypass the command base and the track signal, in favor of direct control from a smart phone or a tablet. This may also be why LC keeps evolving. That was the original means of cutting out the track signal.

JD - My layout, while huge, is pretty simple. I flip one light switch and turn on all the track power to 18V. I can't run conventional, and I opted to not do DCS. I bought a bunch of the new Legacy Bluetooth engines, in the hopes of bypassing my track signal issues. I haven't tried them yet, I actually need my wife to help me with this, because she has the phone, and I'm clueless on things related to it. When it comes to TMCC vs Legacy, the only real difference is that TMCC uses 8 bit commands and Legacy uses 9. It's that extra bit that gives Legacy the additional features. You can always run Legacy engines with TMCC, which is what I actually do, because I've never gotten my Legacy base to work.

carsntrains posted:

Great chart!   You could add one column would answer my question.     Does the Lionchief+ 2.0 run on DC and AC like the LC+ and LC does? If it doesn't it should be called TMCC with BlueTooth or Legacy lite.

 

Jim

I don't think so Jim. The LC control group does not use a track signal, and is in no way related to TMCC/Legacy. LC is more closely related to Bluetooth in that regard. I don't know what 2.0 is going to add to the mix, but I doubt that it's a radical departure from LC+. We'll all see tomorrow, for those of us who didn't have access to a hard copy of the catalog yet.

Can you make the chart more readable for us senior citizens that are having trouble reading that one?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Can you make the chart more readable for us senior citizens that are having trouble reading that one?

I meant to say that John. I suppose I could go down to the train room and see it on the 55" monitor.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

carsntrains posted:

Great chart!   You could add one column would answer my question.     Does the Lionchief+ 2.0 run on DC and AC like the LC+ and LC does? If it doesn't it should be called TMCC with BlueTooth or Legacy lite.

 

Jim

I don't think so Jim. The LC control group does not use a track signal, and is in no way related to TMCC/Legacy. LC is more closely related to Bluetooth in that regard. I don't know what 2.0 is going to add to the mix, but I doubt that it's a radical departure from LC+. We'll all see tomorrow, for those of us who didn't have access to a hard copy of the catalog yet.

Elliot if they are not DC, its a huge step backwards.   Like you say we will know for sure after 9:00 in the morning.  That will add to the confusion.    This LC runs on DC!  This LC+ can also run on DC.  This LC+2.0 only runs on AC.   I can see it now.   LC user buys LC+2.0 engine to run on LC loop.  Cant figure out why it wont work and what that funny smell is. 

Jim

I'm not sure what DC has to do with any of this control stuff. All locomotives have been running on DC for years, since the introduction of can motors. Just because we put AC on the rails doesn't matter, because there s a rectifier inside every engine.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Can you make the chart more readable for us senior citizens that are having trouble reading that one?

I'll try to insert a larger image.  I'll try a couple different formats.

Not sure if this is better or not:

A lot better if you click on the image, I can read that one.

Thanks!

Excel file attached.

Much better JD. Thanks.

In my case it boils down to 2 things...my conventional locos smoke like crazy, my TMCC ones don't. My TMCC passenger cars stay lit all the time, which shows off all my hand painted figures in them. Win some, loose some.

carsntrains posted:

Great chart!   You could add one column would answer my question.     Does the Lionchief+ 2.0 run on DC and AC like the LC+ and LC does? If it doesn't it should be called TMCC with BlueTooth or Legacy lite.

 

Yes

So, a 9x6 chart gives us 54 configurations. And some wonder why others call this confusing?

Another column you can add is on Lash-ups.  And if Dave Olsen would confirm for us, LC+2.0 can lash-up with any LC+2.0 locomotive, as well as most Legacy locomotives (As it says under the video on the online catalog.)?

@Dave Olson

I would suggest adding a column for the MTH DCS App. Although it's not a "Lionel" control system, it's nonetheless a system than can control Lionel.

It can run Legacy, TMCC, and conventional.

LC, LC+ and LC+ 2.0 can be run in the MTH DCS environment, with separate controller

As you've probably already discovered the new catalog has a table - inside the back cover - showing the various (Lionel O-scale) control systems and their features.  Over on the S-gauge side of this forum, we've had a discussion - mostly but not entirely clarifying - about how the Flyer chief, legacy and BT systems map onto the O-gauge systems.  Turns out, for example, that the legacy systems installed in Flyer locos won't work with BT.  FWIW.

Also Dave Olsen provided some information about lashups and not being able to mix and match... (again on the Flyer side).

- Rich

GregR posted:

I would suggest adding a column for the MTH DCS App. Although it's not a "Lionel" control system, it's nonetheless a system than can control Lionel.

It can run Legacy, TMCC, and conventional.

LC, LC+ and LC+ 2.0 can be run in the MTH DCS environment, with separate controller

This new 2.0 stuff should be the first LC engines that could be controlled by a DCS remote, since they can be run via TMCC or Legacy. LC and LC+ still need a different remote, even though they work in the full voltage command environment.

GregR posted:

I would suggest adding a column for the MTH DCS App. Although it's not a "Lionel" control system, it's nonetheless a system than can control Lionel.

It can run Legacy, TMCC, and conventional.

LC, LC+ and LC+ 2.0 can be run in the MTH DCS environment, with separate controller

I'm not seeing a need for this in this table.

To me Lionchief+2.0 is just legacy with Lionchief/+ added. In some aspects it is a little better than Legacy ( ie operations with using bluetooth remote control and phone/tablet as they don't work all the features ) Where Lionchief+2.0 does. 

For me that I can operate it in the TMCC/Legacy environment is a big plus.  

I still wonder if that Bluetooth interface is ever going to be publicly documented.

sinclair posted:

Another column you can add is on Lash-ups.  And if Dave Olsen would confirm for us, LC+2.0 can lash-up with any LC+2.0 locomotive, as well as most Legacy locomotives (As it says under the video on the online catalog.)?

The new LC+2.0 locos will be speed tuned to Legacy standards and use an encoder wheel on the motor. So yes, they can be put in a lash-up w/ Legacy and other LC+2.0 locos.

I do want to note that they are TMCC and not Legacy - this means 32 speed steps, not 200. Dialog is a little scaled back (though we're doing something special with the sounds that will be a surprise  . Also the horn/whistle are not quillable, but w/ the LC APP, the pitch can be changed.

Tuning them to the Legacy speed curves is a nice touch.   I assume they'll still have to be the "lead" unit and the MU is configured in a TMCC configuration, right?

Do these have cruise control?

Dave Olson posted:

sinclair posted:

Another column you can add is on Lash-ups.  And if Dave Olsen would confirm for us, LC+2.0 can lash-up with any LC+2.0 locomotive, as well as most Legacy locomotives (As it says under the video on the online catalog.)?

The new LC+2.0 locos will be speed tuned to Legacy standards and use an encoder wheel on the motor. So yes, they can be put in a lash-up w/ Legacy and other LC+2.0 locos.

I do want to note that they are TMCC and not Legacy - this means 32 speed steps, not 200. Dialog is a little scaled back (though we're doing something special with the sounds that will be a surprise &nbsp. Also the horn/whistle are not quillable, but w/ the LC APP, the pitch can be changed.

Thanks for clarifying, Dave.  I think you guys are delivering a great product that has just about everything people have been requesting.  Nice job to you and the Lionel team.  I enjoyed your facebook video, too.  Gave me a few laughs along the way.

If you can share, will the LC+ (w/Bluetooth) product line continue along side the LC+ 2.0 line?  Thanks!

Dave Olson posted:

sinclair posted:

Another column you can add is on Lash-ups.  And if Dave Olsen would confirm for us, LC+2.0 can lash-up with any LC+2.0 locomotive, as well as most Legacy locomotives (As it says under the video on the online catalog.)?

The new LC+2.0 locos will be speed tuned to Legacy standards and use an encoder wheel on the motor. So yes, they can be put in a lash-up w/ Legacy and other LC+2.0 locos.

I do want to note that they are TMCC and not Legacy - this means 32 speed steps, not 200. Dialog is a little scaled back (though we're doing something special with the sounds that will be a surprise &nbsp. Also the horn/whistle are not quillable, but w/ the LC APP, the pitch can be changed.

Thank you for the additional information.  Now more questions, will it be best practice to put the LC+2.0 in the lead like John stated?  And when adding them to our Legacy systems, do we put them in as TMCC locomotives, or will there be a Legacy update where we can select LC+2.0 as the control and sounds?

Hard to imagine they won't just call it TMCC, that's what they're putting into it.  It's hard to believe there's any reason to add a control type, that would just add to the confusion.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Hard to imagine they won't just call it TMCC, that's what they're putting into it.  It's hard to believe there's any reason to add a control type, that would just add to the confusion.

Probably because TMCC sounds "old" and LC+ 2.0 sounds "new." 

BTW, JD, thanks for doing the chart.  It is VERY useful in understanding the differences in the control systems.

Bob

I’m glad you found it useful, Bob.

Question; I have a layout that has the TMCC control system installed right now. I do not, at this time, have a smart phone at all. I have a regular "flip" phone. I desire to run the ET44AC with LC+ 2.0 shown of pages 82-83 of the latest catalog. What are my options? Can I,

A) Run it from my Cab-1 remote?

B) Purchase an LC universal remote.

C) Purchase a smart phone even though this is the only reason for getting it?

Thanks in advance for your help.