I want to put together a SP Daylight passenger train. Planning on ordering the GGD newest run of the Passenger cars. What would be the best prototypical Lionel Legacy steam engine to head up this consist? It is my understanding that Lionel’s recent AC9 Daylight model is a “What If” model that was never built for actual rr use. Must be Lionel Legacy. Thanks for your help!

Original Post

I have tracked down exactly one photo of a cab forward pulling a passenger train and the cars were heavyweights, not streamliners. And yes, the Lionel Daylight cab forward was a fantasy scheme but one of, if not the best such scheme(s) Lionel has come up with. 

I doubt you'll find a Daylight cab forward in the aftermarket. Legacy GS-4s appear rather more often. If you are looking for steam power that is your best bet, IMHO. There's a mine of information on these Daylight trains here and on the related/linked pages: https://spdaylight.net/Welcome.html 

Someone more informed than me might tell you that with the GGD cars another engine, maybe a diesel, would be more or just as prototypical. But it's your train.

If it was me. I'd try to track down the first Legacy GS-4 daylight 6-11127.

I can't comment as far as the detail accuracy , but its the ONLY legacy daylight with the REAL 4449 whistle tone.

Maybe Hotwater will chime in regarding other specifics.

" No matter how far we travel, the memories will follow in the baggage car."

Likely the only engine with paint that will match the cars is 3rd Rails own GS4. Its not Legacy but it has ERR Cruise so 100 speed steps vs 200. Better detail and correct horn and whistle to boot. Add to that a real Pittman motor vs the Canon in the Lionel Legacy engine.

Pete

Norton posted:

Likely the only engine with paint that will match the cars is 3rd Rails own GS4. Its not Legacy but it has ERR Cruise so 100 speed steps vs 200. Better detail and correct horn and whistle to boot. Add to that a real Pittman motor vs the Canon in the Lionel Legacy engine.

Pete

100% correct, as none of the Lionel Legacy models of the SP GS-4 class are all that correct (errors range from incorrect main rods on earlier versions, too the famous Daylight ball & wing logo being backwards on one side of the skirt, to incorrect whistle, to backwards cab roof vent). The Sunset/3rd Rail GS-4 models are the most correct in 3-Rail, plus Sunset/3rd Rail offered the models in both the black styling and the red & orange Daylight styling. 

The next best SP GS-4 model would be the MTH versions (both black and red & orange, with different road numbers), in my opinion.

I actually rode behind a cab forward in Pullman "Clover Acres" between Lordsburg and El Paso.  I cannot tell you I ever saw Daylight cars behind a Cab Forward, but I definitely saw them mixed with heavyweights and Golden State/Rocket cars.

Hancock52 posted:

I have tracked down exactly one photo of a cab forward pulling a passenger train and the cars were heavyweights, not streamliners. And yes, the Lionel Daylight cab forward was a fantasy scheme but one of, if not the best such scheme(s) Lionel has come up with. 

 

The SP was not shy about pulling passenger trains with the 4-8-8-2 cab-aheads; that was always intended as a use for them, when the weight called for it. It is entirely possible that a cab-ahead pulled a train of streamlined "yellow" cars - maybe even likely.

Lionel's yellow cab-ahead is purely fantasy, as said, and should be avoided at all costs.

(BTW, I have read - must be true! - that many of the SP engine crews and the like did indeed refer to the GS 4-8-4's as "the yellow engines", back in the day. I like the name - simple.)

"Cab Forward" by Robert J. Church shows cab forward #4243 pulling the consist of the "San Joaquin Daylight" on the Tehachapi Loop on page 194. It is an all streamlined Daylight train. The ACs were used when consists were heavy.  Definitely not a fantasy cab forward pulling the train..........

Hot Water posted:
Norton posted:

Likely the only engine with paint that will match the cars is 3rd Rails own GS4. Its not Legacy but it has ERR Cruise so 100 speed steps vs 200. Better detail and correct horn and whistle to boot. Add to that a real Pittman motor vs the Canon in the Lionel Legacy engine.

Pete

100% correct, as none of the Lionel Legacy models of the SP GS-4 class are all that correct (errors range from incorrect main rods on earlier versions, too the famous Daylight ball & wing logo being backwards on one side of the skirt, to incorrect whistle, to backwards cab roof vent). The Sunset/3rd Rail GS-4 models are the most correct in 3-Rail, plus Sunset/3rd Rail offered the models in both the black styling and the red & orange Daylight styling. 

The next best SP GS-4 model would be the MTH versions (both black and red & orange, with different road numbers), in my opinion.

The MTH Premier version of the GS4 is pretty accurate. The only big missing detail I've found is that there is no bell under the smokebox door. 

MTH's GS2 and GS6 leave a bit to be desired. They use the same tooling as the GS4. Their GS2 model has GS4 80" drivers, the GS4 large main rod, an all weather cab, and the wrong tender. The GS6 is closer but has 80" drivers the large main rod from a GS4, and the front steps to the running boards are wrong. 

However MTH got the GS4 whistle pretty close, something Lionel has had an issue with lately. 

 

Santa Fe, All the Way

Attachments

Videos (1)
20191020_163554
D500 posted:
Hancock52 posted:

I have tracked down exactly one photo of a cab forward pulling a passenger train and the cars were heavyweights, not streamliners. And yes, the Lionel Daylight cab forward was a fantasy scheme but one of, if not the best such scheme(s) Lionel has come up with. 

 

The SP was not shy about pulling passenger trains with the 4-8-8-2 cab-aheads; that was always intended as a use for them, when the weight called for it. It is entirely possible that a cab-ahead pulled a train of streamlined "yellow" cars - maybe even likely.

Lionel's yellow cab-ahead is purely fantasy, as said, and should be avoided at all costs.

(BTW, I have read - must be true! - that many of the SP engine crews and the like did indeed refer to the GS 4-8-4's as "the yellow engines", back in the day. I like the name - simple.)

Actually the SP Enginemen referred to them as "Yellow Bellies", since the yellow color was under the side walkways.

PAUL ROMANO posted:

IMG_5961IMG_5955

Another thing that is missing from the MTH GS4 engines are the air lines on the front pilot. I bought the bell and air lines from Lionel years ago and put them on my 2008 MTH "Black Daylight" GS4.
 

Welp adding that bell to the list of parts I'm buying from Lionel during the half off sale.

How did you mount the bell? Just glue it to the underside of the smikebox?

Santa Fe, All the Way

Lou1985 posted:
PAUL ROMANO posted:

IMG_5961IMG_5955

Another thing that is missing from the MTH GS4 engines are the air lines on the front pilot. I bought the bell and air lines from Lionel years ago and put them on my 2008 MTH "Black Daylight" GS4.
 

Welp adding that bell to the list of parts I'm buying from Lionel during the half off sale.

How did you mount the bell? Just glue it to the underside of the smikebox?

Lou, I measured the bell/ bracket and air line locations on the Lionel GS4 and drilled holes to mount them.  

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Now, how can these companies get the GS4 wrong when there is one sitting in a museum in Portland OR?

I was going to say, the 4449 is basically in my backyard. I converted my MTH PS1 to TMCC. Still plan on doing some artistic upgrades in the future.

Chris

Wow - that is a fine collection of 4449 photos. Thanks for posting.

I know that this has been raked over at length in other threads but the finish of the modern paint used on this engine is very glossy. I suppose it's some kind of urethane enamel. On the other hand, the 3rd Rail model of 4449 I have has a much more flat finish, as do the GGD cars that go with it. 

Hancock52 posted:

Wow - that is a fine collection of 4449 photos. Thanks for posting.

I know that this has been raked over at length in other threads but the finish of the modern paint used on this engine is very glossy.

The 4449 has been painted with Dupont Imron paint since the American Freedom Train (1975), and since Imron is pretty much impervious to any dirt, or other stains (we have even had to wash one side of the tender with lacquer thinner due to a fuel oil  spill), the locomotive looks much more "glossy". Back in the "old days", all the SP had was lacquer paint, which was not as "glossy", except for the first few days right out of the paint shop. The lacquer paints also faded fairly rapidly in the bright California sun.

I suppose it's some kind of urethane enamel.

Correct.

On the other hand, the 3rd Rail model of 4449 I have has a much more flat finish, as do the GGD cars that go with it. 

Which is correct for the 1940s and 1950s, depending on whether one of model the pre-war (1946 and older) "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering, or the post war (after 1946), when SP changed to the large billboard lettering on tenders,  and simply "SOUTHERN PACIFIC" on equipment. 

Unless one is modeling the 1981, and later, excursion era, when 4449 was repainted from the AFT red, white and blue, into the post was large SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering (currently 4449 appears in her as-delivered "Southern Pacific Lines" styling), then the models should NOT be highly glossy.

 

RickO posted:

If it was me. I'd try to track down the first Legacy GS-4 daylight 6-11127.

I can't comment as far as the detail accuracy , but its the ONLY legacy daylight with the REAL 4449 whistle tone.

Maybe Hotwater will chime in regarding other specifics.

I have a used one. PM me if interested.

-Pete

"My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my trains at the price that I told her I paid For them!"

 

 

Hancock52 posted:

Wow - that is a fine collection of 4449 photos. Thanks for posting.

I know that this has been raked over at length in other threads but the finish of the modern paint used on this engine is very glossy. I suppose it's some kind of urethane enamel. On the other hand, the 3rd Rail model of 4449 I have has a much more flat finish, as do the GGD cars that go with it. 

Gloss doesn't scale down anyway.  Williams (not WBB) once tried a super glossy finish and all you saw was the gloss...

A satin finish is what I prefer, semi-gloss in rare occasions.

Rusty

PAUL ROMANO posted:

Lou, I measured the bell/ bracket and air line locations on the Lionel GS4 and drilled holes to mount them.  

Ah thanks. I don't have a Lionel model to go off of but I can figure it out. Just wondering if you drilled into the smoke box or not.

Santa Fe, All the Way

Bobby Cox posted:

I want to put together a SP Daylight passenger train. Planning on ordering the GGD newest run of the Passenger cars. What would be the best prototypical Lionel Legacy steam engine to head up this consist? It is my understanding that Lionel’s recent AC9 Daylight model is a “What If” model that was never built for actual rr use. Must be Lionel Legacy. Thanks for your help!

As indicated by others, if you're going to get the GGD passenger cars, you're going to have to get a GGD engine, or the paint won't match. If you want a Legacy engine, you're going to need Lionel cars for the colors to match. Some of the MTH cars may be an acceptible match as well, I'm not sure. I don't know what the newest run of GGD cars will look like, but the previous run had the faded out colors of cars that had been in use for awhile, as Hot Water mentioned. The Lionel paint is much richer, like the current 4449 and its cars, and like the older ones might have been when they were recently placed in service.

Note that faded colors and types of finishes are two different things. A paint job can have richer tone colors and yet have a satin finish or even a flat one, which won't be as shiney as a gloss finish, but will still have the same shade of paint. With faded colors, the colors have changed shades. Those faded color shades could have been painted with a gloss paint, theoretically, in which case the colors would be that of the faded paint, but with a shiney finish.

breezinup posted:
Bobby Cox posted:

I want to put together a SP Daylight passenger train. Planning on ordering the GGD newest run of the Passenger cars. What would be the best prototypical Lionel Legacy steam engine to head up this consist? It is my understanding that Lionel’s recent AC9 Daylight model is a “What If” model that was never built for actual rr use. Must be Lionel Legacy. Thanks for your help!

As indicated by others, if you're going to get the GGD passenger cars, you're going to have to get a GGD engine, or the paint won't match. If you want a Legacy engine, you're going to need Lionel cars for the colors to match. Some of the MTH cars may be an acceptible match as well, I'm not sure. I don't know what the newest run of GGD cars will look like, but the previous run had the faded out colors of cars that had been in use for awhile, as Hot Water mentioned. The Lionel paint is much richer, like the current 4449 and its cars, and like the older ones might have been when they were recently placed in service.

Note that faded colors and types of finishes are two different things. A paint job can have richer tone colors and yet have a satin finish or even a flat one, which won't be as shiney as a gloss finish, but will still have the same shade of paint. With faded colors, the colors have changed shades. Those faded color shades could have been painted with a gloss paint, theoretically, in which case the colors would be that of the faded paint, but with a shiney finish.

Except,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,No manufacturer of 3-Rail passenger cars as offered CORRECT Southern Pacific Daylight cars, except for Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot. Not Lionel, nor MTH, nor K-Line, nor Weaver ever produced the proper/correct SP articulated chair cars or the 3 section articulated diner.

You are somewhat right!!

The lighter ORANGE depicts the Sunsets over the Ocean!!  The darker Orange depicts the Poppy ( Which is the State Flower)! I have seen both , many times!

Now everyone knows!

FREDSTRAINS

 PS...  I have a GS4 & a SP Cab Forward! LOL 

Hot Water posted:
breezinup posted:
Bobby Cox posted:

I want to put together a SP Daylight passenger train. Planning on ordering the GGD newest run of the Passenger cars. What would be the best prototypical Lionel Legacy steam engine to head up this consist? It is my understanding that Lionel’s recent AC9 Daylight model is a “What If” model that was never built for actual rr use. Must be Lionel Legacy. Thanks for your help!

As indicated by others, if you're going to get the GGD passenger cars, you're going to have to get a GGD engine, or the paint won't match. If you want a Legacy engine, you're going to need Lionel cars for the colors to match. Some of the MTH cars may be an acceptible match as well, I'm not sure. I don't know what the newest run of GGD cars will look like, but the previous run had the faded out colors of cars that had been in use for awhile, as Hot Water mentioned. The Lionel paint is much richer, like the current 4449 and its cars, and like the older ones might have been when they were recently placed in service.

Note that faded colors and types of finishes are two different things. A paint job can have richer tone colors and yet have a satin finish or even a flat one, which won't be as shiney as a gloss finish, but will still have the same shade of paint. With faded colors, the colors have changed shades. Those faded color shades could have been painted with a gloss paint, theoretically, in which case the colors would be that of the faded paint, but with a shiney finish.

Except,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,No manufacturer of 3-Rail passenger cars as offered CORRECT Southern Pacific Daylight cars, except for Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot. Not Lionel, nor MTH, nor K-Line, nor Weaver ever produced the proper/correct SP articulated chair cars or the 3 section articulated diner.

Yes, and it would be nice if they did, but GGD is a different type of company from the others; very small runs that are expensive, which allows more customization. (GGD articulated cars are $300 each; Lionel 21" cars are $100-$120 each street price, for example.)  However, since the OP said he wanted a Legacy engine, he'll have to forgo something, and get what's available. If he wants a Legacy engine, a Legacy GS-4 with Lionel 21" cars (or the older 18" cars which have painted interiors and passenger figures) will still be a nice train.

If his personal preference is articulated cars over richer unfaded paint, then he'll need to look at finding a GGD engine with TMCC in order to get a paint match. This is assuming the colors of the new GGD set are the same as the previous set.

Going back to the OP, the question was what was the best Legacy locomotive to pull a GGD 21" set.  The easy answer is the Latest Lionel GS4 or the Legacy Alco PAs.  They are prototypical and have the features that were stated as a must have.  We all know the Daylight Cab Forward is a fantasy scheme. 

I didn't see anywhere in the OP that a direct color match was a requirement. 

Jonathan

 

breezinup posted:
Hot Water posted:
breezinup posted:
Bobby Cox posted:

I want to put together a SP Daylight passenger train. Planning on ordering the GGD newest run of the Passenger cars. What would be the best prototypical Lionel Legacy steam engine to head up this consist? It is my understanding that Lionel’s recent AC9 Daylight model is a “What If” model that was never built for actual rr use. Must be Lionel Legacy. Thanks for your help!

As indicated by others, if you're going to get the GGD passenger cars, you're going to have to get a GGD engine, or the paint won't match. If you want a Legacy engine, you're going to need Lionel cars for the colors to match. Some of the MTH cars may be an acceptible match as well, I'm not sure. I don't know what the newest run of GGD cars will look like, but the previous run had the faded out colors of cars that had been in use for awhile, as Hot Water mentioned. The Lionel paint is much richer, like the current 4449 and its cars, and like the older ones might have been when they were recently placed in service.

Note that faded colors and types of finishes are two different things. A paint job can have richer tone colors and yet have a satin finish or even a flat one, which won't be as shiney as a gloss finish, but will still have the same shade of paint. With faded colors, the colors have changed shades. Those faded color shades could have been painted with a gloss paint, theoretically, in which case the colors would be that of the faded paint, but with a shiney finish.

Except,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,No manufacturer of 3-Rail passenger cars as offered CORRECT Southern Pacific Daylight cars, except for Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot. Not Lionel, nor MTH, nor K-Line, nor Weaver ever produced the proper/correct SP articulated chair cars or the 3 section articulated diner.

Yes, and it would be nice if they did, but GGD is a different type of company from the others; very small runs that are expensive, which allows more customization. (GGD articulated cars are $300 each; Lionel 21" cars are $100-$120 each street price, for example.)

Even if they were $1.98, they are so incorrect, why bother, if someone is attempting to model a CORRECT SP Daylight train. Apparently the original poster plans on doing just that.

However, since the OP said he wanted a Legacy engine, he'll have to forgo something, and get what's available. If he wants a Legacy engine, a Legacy GS-4 with Lionel 21" cars (or the older 18" cars which have painted interiors and passenger figures) will still be a nice train.

If his personal preference is articulated cars over richer unfaded paint, then he'll need to look at finding a GGD engine with TMCC in order to get a paint match. This is assuming the colors of the new GGD set are the same as the previous set.

 

Lou1985 posted:
PAUL ROMANO posted:

Lou, I measured the bell/ bracket and air line locations on the Lionel GS4 and drilled holes to mount them.  

Ah thanks. I don't have a Lionel model to go off of but I can figure it out. Just wondering if you drilled into the smoke box or not.

Yes Lou I had to drill into the smoke box after removing the boiler from the frame.

Hot Water posted:
breezinup posted:
Bobby Cox posted:

I want to put together a SP Daylight passenger train. Planning on ordering the GGD newest run of the Passenger cars. What would be the best prototypical Lionel Legacy steam engine to head up this consist? It is my understanding that Lionel’s recent AC9 Daylight model is a “What If” model that was never built for actual rr use. Must be Lionel Legacy. Thanks for your help!

As indicated by others, if you're going to get the GGD passenger cars, you're going to have to get a GGD engine, or the paint won't match. If you want a Legacy engine, you're going to need Lionel cars for the colors to match. Some of the MTH cars may be an acceptible match as well, I'm not sure. I don't know what the newest run of GGD cars will look like, but the previous run had the faded out colors of cars that had been in use for awhile, as Hot Water mentioned. The Lionel paint is much richer, like the current 4449 and its cars, and like the older ones might have been when they were recently placed in service.

Note that faded colors and types of finishes are two different things. A paint job can have richer tone colors and yet have a satin finish or even a flat one, which won't be as shiney as a gloss finish, but will still have the same shade of paint. With faded colors, the colors have changed shades. Those faded color shades could have been painted with a gloss paint, theoretically, in which case the colors would be that of the faded paint, but with a shiney finish.

Except,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,No manufacturer of 3-Rail passenger cars as offered CORRECT Southern Pacific Daylight cars, except for Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot. Not Lionel, nor MTH, nor K-Line, nor Weaver ever produced the proper/correct SP articulated chair cars or the 3 section articulated diner.

My Williams Daylight Cars are spot on.  But they are over 35 years old !!  O well!

GG1 4877 posted:

Going back to the OP, the question was what was the best Legacy locomotive to pull a GGD 21" set.  The easy answer is the Latest Lionel GS4 or the Legacy Alco PAs.  They are prototypical and have the features that were stated as a must have.  We all know the Daylight Cab Forward is a fantasy scheme. 

I didn't see anywhere in the OP that a direct color match was a requirement. 

Also, the OP was asking about the Daylight AC9 and not a cab forward as I originally read it! Oh well, I must have AC12 on the mind.

But broadly the same issues arise except that there is less color on the Legacy AC9 than on a GS4 so the inevitable color mismatch between the engine and the GGD cars might be less obvious.

However, I have to admit that I passed on the Daylight AC9 as I did not like the way the fantasy scheme was executed.

Hancock52 posted:
GG1 4877 posted:

Going back to the OP, the question was what was the best Legacy locomotive to pull a GGD 21" set.  The easy answer is the Latest Lionel GS4 or the Legacy Alco PAs.  They are prototypical and have the features that were stated as a must have.  We all know the Daylight Cab Forward is a fantasy scheme. 

I didn't see anywhere in the OP that a direct color match was a requirement. 

Also, the OP was asking about the Daylight AC9 and not a cab forward as I originally read it! Oh well, I must have AC12 on the mind.

But broadly the same issues arise except that there is less color on the Legacy AC9 than on a GS4 so the inevitable color mismatch between the engine and the GGD cars might be less obvious.

However, I have to admit that I passed on the Daylight AC9 as I did not like the way the fantasy scheme was executed.

Oops!!!! AC / DC - 220 / 221 whatever it takes?  I didn't read that all the way through did I! 

Jonathan

 

Add Reply

Likes (0)
Post
OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
330-757-3020

www.ogaugerr.com
×
×
×
×
×