Speed of upgraded Lionel

Thanks.  Wasn't aware of the hover feature.  Note that hovering over each of your two recent photos (both large and small photos) produces a different caption.

That makes perfect sense, the second one is a screen shot that I uploaded, it is indeed a different photo.

Hi guys,

 

RJR,

 

Follow the instructions on the sheet below to calculate the correct number of stripes and their width.  To calculate the gear ratio use the method John described in his early post.  For now, ignore the number of chuffs per driver rev.  We have to correct the speed map first.

 

 

If you don't know the numbers off of the stock MTH PS2 engine for which the sound file was designed, send me an e-mail with its product number.  I have a list from MTH that gives the numbers for most of the locomotives they've ever produced.

 

Once you have determined the correct stripe size you can print it out on Avery adhesive backed label paper using the files attached to this post.  This is a completely reliable medium for making tach strips.  There are literally hundreds of PS2 locomotives running around with Avery label tach strips.  The attached files are pdf's with every possible strip size in .001" increments from .050" to .169."  Stripes smaller than .050" cannot reliably be read by the tach reader.  If you need something smaller than .050" you will either have to live with an inaccurate speed map or select a different sound file.  Double check your printer setting to make sure any auto scaling features are turned off.  You want to print the files at 100% to get accurate results.  Some printers use ink or toner that is too porous for the tach reader to read reliably.  If the engine takes off at full speed with the new tach tape trace over the black stripes with a black ballpoint pen.  The pen ink is much denser and will be read reliably.

Thanks for the print files, that solves the problem of trying to generate the tach strips.

If you ever need a stip with stripes greater than .169" it's extremely easy to make them.  Most versions of MS Office include at least one application that can make the strips.  In Excel you can set the column width and alternate between black and white cell fill.  In Word or Publisher you can create text boxes of a defined size and alternate the fill.  The files in my last post we created with MS Publisher.  There are some "crippled" bargain priced versions of Office that won't permit you get any more precise than .01."  If your in this predicament you can download a free copy of Open Office.  Open Office is freeware office suite that is a little clunky but has good page layout tools and will allow high precision making stripes.

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Going into epileptic seizure Gregg??

Dave:  will be away all week so can't try it.

What happens if number of stripes needed on the 27.7mm flywheel to slow loco would cause them to be narrower than a standard 27mm tape spacing?

If an engine runs too fast even for .050" stripes you can usually try a sound file from another engine.  MTH made some Premier steamers with VERY tall gearing because the motors and/or drivers were so large.  The taller the final drive ratio the fewer stripes needed to run on the speed map.

 

Conversely, if an engine runs too slow you can always make the stripes wider and/or swap to a different file.  Some Railking engines, like the scale 0-8-0 and 0-6-0 have smaller motors than the Premier equivalents and VERY short gear ratios.

 

Steam engine gear ratios range all the way from about 10:1 up to 28:1.  All PS2 diesels in both Railking and Premier used 10.5 gears.

 

Dave:  I have my laptop with me, on which is the sound files.  The sound file I downloaded to the Lionel 1950 #736 is r071pf3_berk_all07119cfin.mth

 

When you speak of a tall ratio, I assume you mean a motor to driver ratio approaching 1:1 and by a short ratio one with a higher ratio, like 25:1.  Correct?

I would assume that the only time the size of the stripes really matters, given they're within the encoder's range, is if you want the scale MPH to be accurate.  Otherwise, you could probably tinker with the size to adjust the maximum speed.

 

Correct.

 

 

Dah.  That's the whole point.  The consistent speed map is one of the best features of DCS and it's worth some effort to maintain it on a conversion.  Most TMCC/Legacy operators started to realize this advantage when Odessey II engines started to ship with consistent speed curves.

I realize that, just wanted to make sure of my facts.  Obviously, it's pretty cool to have scale MPH be accurate, one of the things I like about my DCS locomotives.

GRJ:  Given that DCS let's you set a max speed, why tinker with a tach tape to adjust max?

Dave: Is the sound file whose title I posted above, which contains "pf3" intended for PS3?  I'm suspect file titles indicate intended use.

Hi RJR,

 

The file names do indicate intended use, but that this is a PS2 engine.  Here's how that file breaks down...

 

r071pf3_berk_all07119cfin.mth

 

"r" = Railking

"071" = 2007 volume 1 catalog

"pf" = freight announcements

"3" = 3 volt board PS2 board

"_berk_all" = used for all Railking Berkshires in that catalog.

"07119" = sound file was released by MTH R&D to the factory on either January 19th, 2007 or November 9th, 2007 (this file name is missing one digit from the normal naming convention)

"c" = I'm not sure.  I have seen a,b,c, and x.  This may be a version indicator.  If anyone knows, please post.

"fin" = final revision ready for production installation

 

Very few PS3 engines have actually had their sound files posted on-line.  As far as I know, all the ones that have been released are downloaded as zip archives.  When you unzip them you gat both a sound file and a DSP code file.  The DSP file covers lower level operating characteristics of the locomotive.  It's one of the big advances in the PS3 boards.  Now MTH can add a lot of new functionality to older engines than ever before possible, including features like a playable whistle, grade crossing sequence, etc.  With PS2 you couldn't add these features to older engines because they didn't exist when the lower level firmware on the boards was written.  PS2 kept that firmware on a PROM that could not be changed in the field.  With PS3 that's all on flash memory that can be changed at any time.

Dave, I'm a bit confused.  You start by saying file name indicates "that this is a PS3 engine."  But if file was released in 2007, that's pre-PS3.  I assume this is a typo in your note.

 

I had an error in the number in the file; should have been 070119:

 

You are recommending that I find a Premier Berk & try the sound file from that.  I shall do so when I get back to VA.

 

I noticed for the first time that the DCS loader program shows size of file and size of memory.  Was surprised the board has 2 meg.  Thought it was less.

 

One lesson I've learned that there are adverse results if the tach reader is too close to the tape.

 

Dave, I appreciate the advice you've given me on this.

 

 

Hi RJR,

 

Yes, sorry, that was a typo.  I have corrected it to hopefully avoid creating more confusion among other readers.

 

Yes, I would recommend looking for a Premier sound file that you like.  The printout I have with the locomotive gear ratios is at the NWTL, so I can't say for sure, but I think the Railking Berks are 22:1 or 24:1.  The Premiers are more like 14:1, so they will be much closer to your #736.

 

One lesson I've learned that there are adverse results if the tach reader is too close to the tape.

Yes, there certainly are.  The tach readers can easily be damaged if they make contact with the tape.  Not only can the tape get scuffed and become unreadable, but the sensor itself can get scuffed so it can't read anymore.

I just downloaded file for a Premier SOU Kanawha 20-3189-1, P052pp3kanaw90_sou051026afin.mth.  Hopefully the SOU had a good whistle.  Will try it when I get home.

 

Thought I'd post an update.  Acting on the suggestions above, I loaded a sound file for a Premier Kanawha.  The speed is now more consistent with can-motored locos.  This loco running at 5 SMPH equals 8 SMPH on my MTH Challenger & Weaver C630.

 

I do find that the chuffing is uneven, with the engine surging on each driver revolution, always at the same point, an indication of binding.  This could be internal, or, more likely, is the result of worn side rods, which on this loco drive the first 3 drive axles--only the rear axle is directly powered through gears.

 

The loco does continue running at 4 SMPH.  At slower speeds, it stops at the "bind point" & then jumps.

If you ever get the drive rods sorted out so they don't bind, maybe it's time to consider a custom tach tape.  I believe Dave Hikel posted directions for one at one point here.

Since I don't do lashups small differences in speed are not an issue.  Just getting a 62-year old loco running is a challenge.

That's probably true.  How did you deal with the AC motor in that locomotive?  Was this one that got a DC motor conversion?

Yes.  I got a conversion package from Frank Timko, motor & mounting frame.  I also got one for a 1954 diesel switcher, which I haven't started yet.

 

If I could have mounted a tach tape on the Pulmor, I wouldn't have had to replace the motor.  But the DC motor pulls a fraction of the amperage than did the Pulmor.  I had this loco & an upgrade R-K Challenger pacing each other a few inches apart, both deadhead, & the Z4000 ammeter showed about 1 amp.  The Pulmor would pull around 4, as I recall.

Yep, those old AC motors were power hogs, that's for sure!   I still have a couple of them in TMCC locomotives, and they still chew up a lot of amps.

 

I'm thinking of converting my Phantom locomotive to a DC motor and giving it cruise control.  As long as I can move the Phantom sound chips from the old RS 2.5 boards, it would probably work out fine.

john:

And that last post just solved my query on why the Phantom (with TMCC) and it's 4 car consist pops my breaker after a couple laps when any of my other engines don't (pulling the same cars).

My Z-1000 brick is only good for 5.5 to 6 amps. With a few other engines sitting silent but powered I'm running out of amps.

 

Thanks!

The Phantom is a power hungry beast with the AC motor.  It's also not very docile on grades.  I'm hoping a conversion to DC and cruise control will tame it.   Too bad I can't put a second motor in it, but I think that's out of the question, space wise.

I venture no opinion as to the power of the DC motors vice a Pulmor.  With its larger irons, I assume the Pulmor can withstand heat better,

Well, I will say that it's almost impossible to burn up a Pulmor, I've seen them really abused and they keep coming back for more.   I have seen can motors bite the dust, usually the brushes are what dies.

The Premier Kanawha whistle is lousy.  Question:  Does MTH use different whistles for the same Premier loco depending on the road name?

 

When can motors are overloaded, I'm told the brush springs get hot and lose tension, which ruins the motor

"The Premier Kanawha whistle is lousy.  Question:  Does MTH use different whistles for the same Premier loco depending on the road name?"

 

Sometimes they do.  The most recent release of the Kanawha has two possible whistles.  The C&O versions have appropriate whistles for the C&O (steamboat hooter whistles).  The two Southern versions (one accurate [the black version] and one a what-if [the green version]) share a different whistle which is pretty close to the whistle that C&O #2716 wore while operating in the Southern Steam Program in the early 1980s.  The quillable whistles on all of these models is NKP 765's whistle.

Correct, that's been my observation.

Thanks, Mt482. I'll have to see what I can dig up.