Station siding electrical question

Described here. Further relays and a timer can provide soft stop and start and time delay between trains.

http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=856&categoryId=426

 The electronic part is easy to do. The above link is harder to explain than to actually do. Do not be intimidated it is simple switching. The more serious problem with automating a siding is the reliability of the switches. I purchased a pair of the new of Ross O tubular at York to mate with my K-Line Shadow rail. Steve assured me his switches were reliable and derailment was not an issue.. I will be doing the above circuit on the layout I am building with added soft start/stop circuits.  I am still laying track for 6 loops. Since the layout is about 1400 sq feet it will be a while.

Dale H

Hi Dale

I'd love to implement this feature into my passenger stations, but the track is already in place and not easy at all to add an insulated track section. Can the Lionel 153IR or Z1011 trigger the relays when the train enters the station? Or must it be insulated rails only?

ralph

Ralph

With 3 rail the insulated rail method is the cheapest and most reliable. I would not use IR detectors for collision avoidance due to poor reliability. However having said that if they were made reliable I think the link circuit could be made to work,even with less relays assuming the detector circuit had sufficient hysteresis and would hold in as the train left. (and not go on and off between cars as it passes the detector)

If it is just a stop circuit and not collision avoidance the consequence of a malfunction is less of a problem.

A reed switch and magnet integrated with a latching circuit either mechanical or electrical might be a better choice. I would have to think about it and sketch it out. That could be installed without tearing up track.

Blocks can be cut with a dremel maybe without picking up track.

There are a lot of ways to do things but since we put up with the 3rd rail we may as well use it as it is a natural block detection advantage over 2 rail.

The basic circuit linked before would cost about $35 to build. Maybe $70 with a time delay and crude soft starting. Cost depends on the amount of realism we want.  Real trains do not jack rabbit out in a split second of each other.  In conventional this can be overcome with additional circuitry.

Dale H

Hi Dale

Thanks for the reply. I use tubular track, so making the blocks is a bit more difficult, since the metal ties mess things up.

If you have the time and could sketch out the 'reed - latching circuit' and email me directly, maybe I can induce you to build it for me? The relay solution for lighting has you sent me in the past been an immense help.

Larry: The request you posted sounds deceivingly simple, but it's not. I've been a model railroader for over 25 years and have authored 25 published articles on advanced electronic/electrical control systems for trains. The closest to what you asked for was an article I wrote that was in Classic Toy Trains October 2007 issue. This article described running two trains simultaneously on the same loop of track. Oddly enough, I was in our local train shop about a week ago and a customer voiced the same request as yours. My first reaction was: no problem. But when I got back home to my lab and started to work out the details, I realized it wasn't all that easy!

To do what you and that other guy wanted requires several key steps:

1. You need a detection scheme to know where the trains are.

2. You need to switch the two turnouts which feed the siding at the appropriate time.

3. You need to control the power to the correct blocks at the right time.

I am convinced that this can be accomplished and am working on the approach now. When I finish, I will post the the circuit details.

Bob H. Walker 

Ralph

I would have to think a bit and draw it out. Off the top of my head it could be done with 2 reed switches for sure and IR detectors maybe. Basically we are making a circuit for 2 rail.  The problem with the IR detector is that when the train is leaving the block the gap between cars makes and breaks the detector as the train moves. There is a timing circuit in the Lionel IR detector I think but if the train stalls in that position it may not be reliable. There is a difference between a block signal not working right and trains colliding if it does not work right so we have to be careful here. If the reed switch failed we would not have a collision.

Anyway I will sketch it out and look in my parts box. Most useful would be a twin coil mechanical latching relay .  This would have memory so the trains would not have to be parked on the siding when shut down. I need to know what kind of turnouts you are using. They have to be thrown in tandem.

Even with this since 2 trains are running on a loop the center rail of the 2 siding have to be isolated if they are not now.

For parts we are looking at I think 3 relays,a latch relay and a few rectifiers and 2 reed switches and capacitors. For pause between trains a timer and another relay. Again give me a bit of time. The best laid plans of mice and men sometimes go astray.

Dale H

I have a bunch of Atlas Snap-Relays, they're a nice twin coil DPDT latching relay.  That's probably what you're looking at here.

I agree with the problem of IR detectors dropping out at the space between adjacent cars, but this is only true with reflective detectors. If you use transmissive detectors with the emitter on one side and the detector on the opposite side and place them at 30 degrees relative to the track, this problem goes away. However, using a time delay circuit with a reflective detector will also work as well.

Bob Walker

If the train stops at the gap with a reflective detector, the time delay doesn't solve the problem, right?

Hi all

The station siding solution that Dale H has IDd is attractive to me.  Let me explain.

I constructed the track layout and placed all the accessories, etc before I understood about the need/use of isolated rails - like I really know now, Ha Ha. Actually, to do what I want, most of the layout would have to be isolated rails. So I opted for no isolated rails and jumped into the IR cart. I use IRs to operate signals and some accessories.

I have quite a number of them from different manufacturers. Zstuff 1011, Lionel 153IR MTH ItADs and one called MrMax. I'm sure there are other manufacturers as well. These all tout the ability to accomplish the things I want to do. They seem to perform well, though my layout is not 100% operational in terms of running trains to all levels and track sections - more like 45%.

Zstuff includes application drawings on their site to do wiring, using their own brand of relay for a siding and collision avoidance applications. The lionel includes its IR and relay as a unit, but doesn't include instructions for applications other than operating accessories - basically you are left on your own. MrMax suggests several on their website. MTH's is similar to Lionels.

The Zstuff 1011 relay comes wired, by color. One of the big problems is this wiring, since the unit is proprietary, it isn't clear what wire does what. Eg, the yellow wire never seems to be used in any application, the blue wire is labeled COM, but half the time in the application drawings it gets connected to power, Red/Green always are joined and go to power or common depending which accessory it is trying to operate. Some of the drawings are missing components referred to in the instructions and notes. It seems like this relay has to be customized to each application, with the email advice from Dennis - and sometimes he suggests a trial and error solution.  

The lionel product doesn't have any applications similar to the Zstuff listed in its manual. Mr.Max will talk thru them on the telephone, but his products are pricey - they actually use a two component send/receive IR and even under track sensor item. 

I'll probably implement the Zstuff collision avoidance solution on some crossovers in my layout. The station siding solution that is being discussed here will need time to percolate, but it may be the way I go.

Ralph

Hi Arthur

Thanks for your reply on the 'insulated rail'. A good how to for making one.

I've tried it and after my un-handy work the revised track never gets back the way I had it before I removed it. I thought of removing a track and replacing it with a true insulated rail, but there is the issue of location. The area where I want to do this has some long stretching and placing the IR next to the tracks with relays under the table top is most convenient for me than working on the tracks proper.

Ralph

Ralph

I am drawing up a circuit for the sidings,there are several ways to do it.. I need to know the type of turnouts used and if you want a time delay between trains.

Crossover protection is very easy and only requires 2 relays if the insulated outside rail is used. 2 additional relays will eliminate roller jumping on longer trains if needed.

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowT...4&categoryId=426

Dale H

To Ralph: I understood your comments on the various IR detectors. I have used every one you mentioned in your post with different results. The Z-Stuff units seem to be the best of the refelective types. I must add that the transmissive units I have used (Pioneer Valley #021) have been outstanding performers so far.

Bob Walker

Numerous ways to circuit the passing siding. The reed switch offers an advantage over the insulated rail method in that it can select trains which will react. Only those with a magnet underneath will trigger the switch. So for a stop circuit a passenger train can stop at a station while a freight train is ignored. However we will assume that only 2 trains are on the loop in this application. The trains on the passing siding can go in the opposing or same direction.

The center rail on each siding is blocked with fiber pins. Reed switches are placed where the train is to stop allowing for stopping distance and train length. The reed switches could be made to switch power to a relay coil which could latch through one of its contacts. However I would instead trigger a timer with each reed switch,shown is an Infetec single shot,described here.

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowT...8&categoryId=426

Triggering the timer would require much less current and time than a relay coil and increase reliability IMO of the reed switch operation.. A homemade 555 circuit could also be used instead.

The power supply for the circuit is a 10 VAC tap off a transformer. The bridge rectifier and capacitor boost voltage to about 14 VDC for the 12 volt timer and relays.

The timers in turn will power 2, DPDT relay coils (coils 1 and 2 left and center). If reed switch 1 or 2 is made by the train magnet,the timer is triggered, coil 1 or 2 will energize for the time set by its timing resistor ( a 1 meg pot from a few to 180 seconds),then de-energize.

Power from the transformer is routed through the left sets of relays 1 and 2 so that if either relay is on power is cut to the track center rail. This allows for individual set timed periods between train arrival-departure.

Relay 3 is 4PDT (use 2 , DPDT relays in parallel).  When relay 1 is energized, coil 3 is energized by relay 1 (right contact set) and electrically latched through its second set in series with the right set (common- Normally closed contacts) of relay 2. When relay 2 is energized the latch is released and coil 3 is de-energized.

The above can also be accomplished with a twin coiled latch relay which would have memory at shutdown. The above would have to be reset manually (Latch restored on relay 3) if shut down while block 2 is vacant. Some twin coiled latch relays do not take constant voltage so the coils would be thrown by capacitor discharge by the right set of contacts of relays 1 and 2.

If relay 3 coil is de-energized track power is on block 1. If relay coil 3 is energized track power is on to block 2. This is accomplished by contact set 1 of relay 3. Both blocks then can not be energized at once.

The third set of contacts on relay 3 would throw the turnouts ,wired in tandem in the proper direction. Atlas switches could be thrown with capacitor discharge.

The optional 4th set of contacts on relay 3 could be used for block signals,wired opposite of each other.

In operation, train 1 would pull into the siding tripping the reed switch,after the set time the opposite train would pull outand run the loop,when it returns  train 1 would run the loop. It would not matter if the train stopped dead on the reed switch.

Further relays and voltage dropping diodes could add a soft start circuit. The parts for the above circuit would cost about $55 to make.

Dale H

Dale,

You have mail

Ralph

Hi Larry,
 
    What you want is in chapter 22 of "Model Railroading, Prepared by the Staff of the Lionel Corporation" from the 1958 Bantam book, chapter titled "Wring for Effect" pages 353-355, from the 5th edition.  No relays or special circuits, just insulated rail sections and switches (turnouts) wired together.  Clever and simple!
 
    Take care, Joe.

Joe - I'm interested in knowing this circuitry, but I lack access to the book. Would it be possible for you to post (or e-mail me) a schematic or a description of how it's accomplished?

Pete

This worked for me.  MTH RealTrak 42 switches.  Lock engines in direction and run slow, it is possible to coast through the Stop Blocks  

I have ideas on how to run two trains in oposite directions and three trains in the same direction on this track plan, but these are untested

Hi Pete,
    Here are the 2 diagrams from the Lionel book.  If it violates the copyright, I guess the moderator will remove it.  
        
    Take care, Joe.