The death of the TMCC upgrade

Norton posted:

Jan posted:

Just to throw some fuel on the fire, if I was supporting two technologies, TMCC and Legacy, and was looking to reduce costs and increase profits, I would eliminate the TMCC/ERR products and begin selling Legacy products to the public.by eliminating the requirement to trade-in a non-functioning Legacy board to get a new board.

Jan

Lionel made that possible a few weeks ago. Actually you have been able to buy first generation modular Legacy boards for quite a few years now. A friend has converted dozens of engines of all types including 3rd Rail and MTH to Legacy.

Only recently has Lionel offered a few Legacy Railsounds boards for sale without exchange. 

To do this you will need a some experience with electronics. There are no manuals. You will need tools to make your own harnesses. No screws terminals. Your only guide is being able to read the terminal markings printed in 2 point type on the PC boards.

The only way this will work is if Lionel creates user friendly boards and instructions so you don't need to be a PhD EE to install it. 

Pete

 

Just a schematic would be super.

"Lionel TMCC / Legacy, and all of the associated upgrade options over the years, TAS, ERR, and Digital Dynamics.  The signal transmission method is flawed, and no amount of ground plane, the "healing hand of health", and replacement boards will ever make it better."

"MTH DCS.  I don't even know where to start with all of the issues I've encountered with this system over the 11 plus years that it was my displeasure to be associated with it. "

And you didn't include the flawed firmware in the QSI boards that MTH used in their Proto-1 engines.  Death rattles that resist fixing with the chip reset kit.  The ElectricRR boards were a salvation for these.  While I haven't found a Lionel ground plane issue I can't fix (yet), the DCS signal issues on a modular layout have cost me and my club's members many many man years trying to correct.  Signal problems morph into new failure symptoms when additional engines roll out onto the loop.  My experience is frequently "Check Track" even on a simple test loop at home.  Sorry for the rant, but the demise of ElectricRR has closed the door on my intent to convert every loco I like to run to a signal system that works consistently for me (TMCC) and I am most disappointed.

I do tons of DCC installs and sound upgrades and if if you guys want bullet prof control, run DCC. 

Thanks for the update Pete.  I thought that there was that possibility in the many, many posts in these threads.

Perhaps Lionel is getting ready to market consumer friendly Legacy upgrades.

Jan

Folks, one BIG unknown in this development is the length and terms of the contracts Lionel has for supplying Atlas and 3rd Rail with TMCC boards. It might be considerably shorter than we might be speculating. Another possibility might be Lionel working to license LionChief Plus technology to those companies. No one knows except those three companies.

I can't even imagine 3rd Rail or Atlas being happy with LC+ functionality, but maybe that's just me.  I'm sure many of their customers would not be!

What is to stop Atlas or 3rd Rail from brokering a deal with MTH for ProtoSound 3 electronics? Then again, they could offer conventional only locomotives for the 3-rail crowd like they do with their Trainman models for 2-railers.

My two cents.  Email to Lionel:

I have bought Lionel products since I started train collecting at 11 years old.  I am now 61 and have purchased several TMCC engines and ERR upgrade kits.  To discontinue making available to me all the products ERR has is a huge disappointment to me and the train industry.  Lionel has in the past always been a leader in the industry.  I have purchased many train sets with the new blue tooth technology to run for the kids club.  Even though I like this technology for the young children, we meet by the thousands, at the Home & Garden Show, this technology does nothing for my personal collection and command control of my home layout.  I have several engines that need upgraded and with limited funds it can not be done all at once.  I counted on ERR to provide these components, especially when I retire in a few years.  I will no longer purchase Lionel trains for the club or personal use in the future.  MTH provides PS3 upgrades at a fraction of the cost of upgrading to Cruise Command and sound.  Their products are well made and reasonably priced for O scale.   I will join their club and purchase all my products from them in the future.  YOU have made this decision for me.

catnap posted:

What is to stop Atlas or 3rd Rail from brokering a deal with MTH for ProtoSound 3 electronics? Then again, they could offer conventional only locomotives for the 3-rail crowd like they do with their Trainman models for 2-railers.

To date, MTH has been adamant about not sharing any of their technology with anyone. I think the chances of MTH supplying PS3 to Atlas and 3rd Rail approach zero.

Keith L posted:

catnap posted:

What is to stop Atlas or 3rd Rail from brokering a deal with MTH for ProtoSound 3 electronics? Then again, they could offer conventional only locomotives for the 3-rail crowd like they do with their Trainman models for 2-railers.

To date, MTH has been adamant about not sharing any of their technology with anyone. I think the chances of MTH supplying PS3 to Atlas and 3rd Rail approach zero.

But when was the last time MTH was presented with that question?  IIRC it was many years ago (PS2 rollout) and obviously the market dynamic can be considered much different with fewer companies and arguably smaller customer bases.  It's also possible that MTH's current business relationship w/ Lionel (Lionel Corporation Tinplate) might influence their current decision.

Lionel did a Lucy and they have not started the EXPLAINATION.

Very simple we are a small market in the O gauge commuinty. However you turn your back on us we will turn our back to you.

This act alone will kill the York event for those of us that upgrade the old trains. I would like to see the sale numbers before Lionel announcment and what the numbers where after the announcment.

I did not leave a comment on the Facebook page about ERR, however I did email them.

I am madder than a wet hen. 

PRR Joe posted:

My two cents.  Email to Lionel:

I have bought Lionel products since I started train collecting at 11 years old.  I am now 61 and have purchased several TMCC engines and ERR upgrade kits.  To discontinue making available to me all the products ERR has is a huge disappointment to me and the train industry.  Lionel has in the past always been a leader in the industry.  I have purchased many train sets with the new blue tooth technology to run for the kids club.  Even though I like this technology for the young children, we meet by the thousands, at the Home & Garden Show, this technology does nothing for my personal collection and command control of my home layout.  I have several engines that need upgraded and with limited funds it can not be done all at once.  I counted on ERR to provide these components, especially when I retire in a few years.  I will no longer purchase Lionel trains for the club or personal use in the future.  MTH provides PS3 upgrades at a fraction of the cost of upgrading to Cruise Command and sound.  Their products are well made and reasonably priced for O scale.   I will join their club and purchase all my products from them in the future.  YOU have made this decision for me.

I'm not familiar at all with PS but I went to there site and found the PS3 upgrade priced at $199.95. That's a fraction of the cost of ERR set up??? Last I looked to get cruise commander and rail sounds it was $209.90. $10 difference is a fraction of the cost? Also what does it cost to take a non ps engine to ps-3 is it the $199.95 as I saw a note saying if your upgrading from PS-2 order this kit or that kit depending if you had pandagraghs or not. 

Oh I used the cost for steam on tmcc as it was $5 more so if you were doing a Diesel it would only be $5 more. Now before you get all upset I'm asking for info, as if What I found is correct I can guarantee you Lionel already know the difference in price. 

Now them ending ERR upgrade is definitely a big disappointment, But personally I feel all the Emails and letters and all will probably go right into the trash. I have tried contacting them a few times in the past and never once heard a word back from them. When it comes to how they decide to do business they could care less about what you or I or anyone else has to say. If you really want to get there attention, my guess would be to get something like the TCA to stick up for us on this and see if something can't be worked out for the best of the hobby. My bet right now is if everyone who has commented on this subject actually sent them a email they may get about 150 - 175 emails. To them that isn't anything. 

I feel your fighting a losing battle ( not just you but everyone in here stating there going to write Lionel or give up on Lionel trains. ) Now you can also say it doesn't matter to me really as I mainly run conventional, but your wrong. I feel this is a big lost to the hobby, but it's something we can only hope will bring a better upgrade item than what we have now. As stated many times , what they have now work for us but is obsolete and to upgrade that system would take a lot. The technology is old and some of the components are being phased out as they are obsolete in today's technology. I personally could use about five or six set ups but I do not have the money to spare for one right now to be honest with you, with all that's going on in my life.  My only hope that the legacy powermaster are not getting deleted also. I won't have sound but I can have remote control to a degree anyway. 

Also to me Lionel started going down hill when they did away with conventional engines and sets and went to there lionchief and lionchief+ . I don't really like them as the most I think it is you can run on one controller is four. My tmcc and legacy controllers can handle 98 I think it is. Get what a step in reverse for the consumer. To me to many have just gone along with a reverse in technology. it maybe actually more technical but for the consumer it's actually less. 

nvocc5 posted:

Lionel did a Lucy and they have not started the EXPLAINATION.

Very simple we are a small market in the O gauge commuinty. However you turn your back on us we will turn our back to you.

This act alone will kill the York event for those of us that upgrade the old trains. I would like to see the sale numbers before Lionel announcment and what the numbers where after the announcment.

I did not leave a comment on the Facebook page about ERR, however I did email them.

I am madder than a wet hen. 

 

 

 

 

 I'm still amazed at the decision to not implement via some method of running of the whole digital product line by their supposed "high" end remote! Now, this wonderful situation arises. This is the straw that breaks the camels back. I will wait one more week for a update. I'm then out never to return!

Oh, I'll still buy trains - only smaller ones...save room in the closets...the wife will be in her glory..

My personal thoughts.

1) The announcement of the end of ERR should have come as a official written press release. Posted on Lionel website etc.

2) ‘If’ there is a plan to move on to some other form of upgrade path (Legacy or Bluetooth etc.) nothing should have been announced about ERR until the alternative plan was in place.

3) Unwittingly it appears Lionel have cast doubt on their perceived commitment to the whole TMCC/Legacy system. 

4) Lionel’s watch word was “No train left behind” what so great is we can run a 1930’s vintage train next to the latest locomotive using the same remote. 

5) Ken, congratulations on your retirement and thank you for all your help.

Nick

To add Reply #374

As long as the the Bachmann / Williams Reverse units are still available, all is well.

1998 called and it wants its Proprietary operating system back.

I wonder how long this " bad taste" will linger? Will it be as bitter as MTH had  when MTH  abandoned their PS1/QSI platform for Ps2?

I think it is now time for us all to take a deep breath and wait for Lionel's definitive answer on what is happening to tmcc/ERR. 

What is their long term goal, will there be a way to upgrade engines with tmcc, legacy, blue tooth or something more advanced.

Lionel could have handled this announcement better IMO. It seems Lionel has no protocol in place for situations as this and the passenger car debacle.

Dave 

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I wonder how long this " bad taste" will linger? Will it be as bitter as MTH had  when MTH  abandoned their PS1/QSI platform for Ps2?

Well, If your thinking it! There are many others with you. PS1 a is not even close,to this scenario. Ps1 was not a remote system. I think if "M" stopped selling upgrades that allowed updating everything to run under one roof. That would be in line with Lionel decision. I'm beginning to realize my passion and dedication for Lionel trains is due to former Management....Joshua Lionel  and Richard Kughn!  Plus, the cereal guys going to the grave yard and performing a resurrection.

 I mean why have a demo table without some sort of visual and audible presentation. (At least none occurred when I was floating around the orange hall. One on one - that's ok. But, they want more public from the outside? For what? To watch 3 trains going around a circle. To see static trains on the wall?  A little human animation might help.

As several have pointed out, in 2000-2002, MTH did then exactly what Lionel has done now.  That is, they announced there would be no PS1 upgrades when PS2 was being developed.  They then, as Lionel will no doubt do now, rethought that strategy when howls of protest occurred.  In other words, MTH did then what Lionel has done now, announce an unpopular and unsustainable policy that will have to be reversed in some fashion.  Don't try to rewrite history .  Particularly since in this case, it is still being written.

"Yes, advance right to MTH!"

Nah.  Not an option.

There are a couple of parallels in other product markets.  A brand of printer called ALPs  they were manufactured by the same company that made Alpine auto stereos.  When Alps decided to exit the printer business they gave people a three year warning.  Some of you may be familiar with the Alps printer they are the printer that decal makers use. Rather than a liquid ink they use a ribbon coated with colored wax that is completely waterproof. When loaded with blank decal paper you can print water slide decals. Chances are if you have ever had custom decals made this is the machine they were made on.  The Alps printers have a cult following (I'm one) and though not manufactured in several years the ink is still available through a company in Japan called Elephant Rocket who also repairs and sells refurbished printers. Alps was simply practicing good public relations and I admire them very much.  When Nikon decided to exit the film scanner business I received a letter stating that after a certain date they would no longer repair their scanners and it was enough warning that people who's livelihood depended on the scanner could purchase back up units and find shops that bought up dead scanners as a parts source and continue to service and keep these now rare machines working.  Minolta (SONY)  was not so thoughtful of those who owned their professional scanners. Sony bought Minolta and would refer scanner owners to a company called Precision Camera repair who people shipped their scanners to and then received a letter from PCR stating they no longer had the parts to repair the scanner.  They did this to me and then shipped the scanner back very poorly packaged and the face plate was knocked off. I pitched a fit screamed and cursed and had a lawyer send a nasty letter.  They called me a few days later and asked me to return the scanner which they promptly repaired to fully working condition. Seems they did have some parts in the warehouse after all.

  Lionel could make me happy and I am sure many other customers if instead of cutting the tap off with nearly zero warning they would give a more reasonable cut off date say one year from now. I have been adding TMCC to many of my old locos, I started a year ago and have done about 20 and have another 35 or 40 that I would like to convert.  I placed an order with ERR Sunday night immediately after reading the bad news here and pray they will fill it. 

  Lionel if you are lurking out there I promise if you delay the shut down of ERR or perhaps license the folks at B.G. Technologies Inc or some other firm to make the ERR products, even if for a limited but more reasonable time, I will continue to purchase Lionel products even an occasional high end loco. However if you snatch the rug out from under us faithful Lionel devotees I will never again purchase another Lionel product.  John Acton

I'd like to thank Derek for starting this thread and the majority of posters for some very good and civil discussions.  We haven't had a thread go to 10 pages this quick in a long time which I believe should let Lionel how we feel about this matter. 

Certainly there are some strong feelings about ERR upgrades becoming unavailable to us.  Ken, Jon, and the entire ERR team are a great bunch and I wish them the best. The folks from Lionel that engage us here on the forum are also a pretty good group that do their best to keep us in the know of all things Lionel. 

I hope that the correspondence from this group to Lionel was polite and firm.  Hopefully we can change some minds and we'll all be happy when the dust clears without any collateral damage.  I'm sure the folks that made this decision are probably not exactly thrilled by the reaction but part of business is at least listening to your customers, good, bad, and ugly.

We can certainly continue to discuss this here and if you would like to let Lionel how you feel write a polite letter or email if you haven't already. Perhaps we should all take a breath now and see if we get a response from Lionel in the coming weeks.  While I don't expect something immediately, I do think they will acknowledge the concerns.  I hope the folks at Lionel take this response as support of a product that we all enjoy and hope for it's future.

This will most likely be the last I will post on this subject unless something new comes out.  I'd like to thank OGR for letting this thread to continue as it really does impact a great deal of the folks on this forum.  I'd like to thanks Lionel for hopefully at minimal listening to our concerns. Mainly I'd like to thank the forum itself for what is for the most part a civil discussion on a hot topic.

10 pages...who would of ever thunk it?

MartyE posted:

.

  I'd like to thank OGR for letting this thread to continue as it really does impact a great deal of the folks on this forum.  I'd like to thanks Lionel for hopefully at minimal listening to our concerns. Mainly I'd like to thank the forum itself for what is for the most part a civil discussion on a hot topic.

10 pages...who would of ever thunk it?

That part says a lot, on concerns on this subject, and the quality of posters who maybe angry, upset on this subject, yet stayed civil in their statements on this. Also OGR for letting us continue on this matter. Hopefully Lionel will listen and see the impact this decision has made on our Hobby.

  We haven't had a thread go to 10 pages this quick in a long time which I believe should let Lionel how we feel about this matter. 

 

10 pages...who would of ever thunk it?

A picture is worth 1,000 words.

Gerry

Bill,

As I see it you get a discount for being a MTH Club member on PS-3 upgrades.  I stated I would join the club.  There are also more features for what you pay for.  Sound may not be as good but it is close enough for what I am looking for in an upgrade.   Maybe a fraction was not the best wording.  They are more difficult to upgrade but I have done several in the past.

Joe

gmorlitz posted:

A picture is worth 1,000 words.

Gerry

lol, There's someone that inspires the hobby.

josef posted:

MartyE posted:

.

  I'd like to thank OGR for letting this thread to continue as it really does impact a great deal of the folks on this forum.  I'd like to thanks Lionel for hopefully at minimal listening to our concerns. Mainly I'd like to thank the forum itself for what is for the most part a civil discussion on a hot topic.

10 pages...who would of ever thunk it?

That part says a lot, on concerns on this subject, and the quality of posters who maybe angry, upset on this subject, yet stayed civil in their statements on this. Also OGR for letting us continue on this matter. Hopefully Lionel will listen and see the impact this decision has made on our Hobby.

yes, civility has it's merits. But, the best protest is to hit them in the pocket book. They only made 5000.00. Well, 10G lost on my purchases this coming year. 

Just a dumb question here, but why not just raise the price of the ERR kits significantly, thereby excluding all but the most desirable saves of old equipment?

Just playing devils advocate and assuming Lionel’s intent is to back folks into a corner thereby forcing them to buy more new locomotives then their next logical step is to take away the license from Atlas and 3rd Rail. Whether it is now or when the license runs out or when the parts run out. They know that a large portion of the O Gauge enthusiasts who want Command Control want Locomotives that has their choice of Command Control system installed from the factory. Sure a few guys will go through the expense of ripping out DCS and installing TMCC or vice verse but by and large most O Gauge folks who aren’t strictly conventional either run one of the two systems or both. What better way to increase profits than to take Atlas and 3rd Rail out of the mix? I always say what do you think gives Lionel more profit: selling a locomotive even a $500 one or selling a board to Atlas/3rd Rail? Obviously they make more profit selling the locomotive. This is of course why MTH does not license their system.

Like I said I am just playing devils advocate here and looking at the situation through eyes that only care about increased profits in a shrinking scale.

However, I sincerely hope that my scenario above does not come to pass. I agree with the positive thoughts listed above and I think Lionel will come to their senses. Let’s hope it is sooner rather than later. 

I think this will be a good test to see if Lionel listens or cares about their customers and address what has obviously hit a nerve with all of us.  Time will tell I guess. 

The announcement has been published on the Electric RR website.  electricrr.com

MIKATT1 posted:

The announcement has been published on the Electric RR website.  electricrr.com

 

To Our Valued Customers: Based on business decisions Lionel has decided to no longer support The Electric Railroad Company. We will officially be shutting down all sales of Electric RR related products on May 15th.  We will fulfill all orders received up to May 15th while supplies last. Mike Phillips, Vice President - Brand Marketing.

Not good, Lionel still hasn't gotten the message.   Please keep the emails up.

There market just got smaller not 0 just lionels

This really sucks what happens to your 1500 steamengine boards go Bad and Lionel doesn’t support them.  Now you have self queen. Don’t they understand that I can’t spend 1k a Engine everyday. H.O is looking better and better everyday. At least they have one system and you can put dcc in anything. 

Gerry, thanks for a laugh, I needed one.

jojofry posted:

Chris Lonero posted:

jojofry posted:

This really sucks what happens to your 1500 steamengine boards go Bad and Lionel doesn’t support them.  Now you have self queen. Don’t they understand that I can’t spend 1k a Engine everyday. H.O is looking better and better everyday. At least they have one system and you can put dcc in anything. 

MTH has some nice H.O! 

To be honest I really can’t stand mth . There parts department sucks .There boards are weak imo they refuse to compete with Lionel and in H.O they lack the detail of most the other company’s. 

they both have their issues.

Gary

My take after reading 10 pages.

Lionel made a business decision which they know reason for not us.

Almost everyone is upset. Some more some less.

Everyone seems to have the answer but how can you know an answer with out knowing the full equation of the problem. That is speculation.

I am always amazed at some people who are die hard in on camp. ( MTH, Lionel, DCC )

Crying seems to be the easy solution. It helps our own feelings but really? As has been stated many many times, IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD. There could be a lot of different scenarios that play out or maybe nothing. Can we change to a smaller scale? Sure but some of us can NOT! Our hands are too shaky and our eyes are starting to fail. At the last York show my wife and I had an interesting conversation based on ONE question. Average age of people attending. We figure low to mid 60's. With this in mind and keeping on track with ERR, It makes me realize that some like myself have just returned to the hobby. Others are and have been in for the long haul. Some an afford new engines others can not. For me I would have to buy older new or used engines and possibly get them converted with ERR or some other system. Now with ERR going out I have to wonder as everyone else is -"What are my options?" OUR options are few or many based on each persons PERSONAL feelings. I believe like others that more options are out there or going to come. You can NOT have major train manufacturers installing a system that is going to be extinct in new engines and make sales. SOMEONE is going to step up and either change those systems to an existing one or a new one. Atlas and 3rd Rail can't live on history parts that may no longer be. They, as has been said, are in the same situation we are. Me? I look forward with hope and even some joy. Sure I am upset and sad about the past but it is the past. Just as WE get old so does technology hence the need for change. EVERYONE COMPLAINED WHEN PASSENGER SERVICE DIED with each individual railroad but how many support what is today? IF we support what comes it can be better and greater for everyone including most of all THE HOBBY. AS WE GET OLDER WE NEED TO SUPPORT THE HOBBY! We are like the museums and Preservationist for the FUTURE generations. Our job is to ride the rails and enjoy the ride as we continue to keep the hobby alive. AS for me I am having one GRAND ride because I CHOOSE TO!

CurtisH posted:

My take after reading 10 pages.

Lionel made a business decision which they know reason for not us.

Almost everyone is upset. Some more some less.

Everyone seems to have the answer but how can you know an answer with out knowing the full equation of the problem. That is speculation.

I am always amazed at some people who are die hard in on camp. ( MTH, Lionel, DCC )

Crying seems to be the easy solution. It helps our own feelings but really? As has been stated many many times, IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD. There could be a lot of different scenarios that play out or maybe nothing. Can we change to a smaller scale? Sure but some of us can NOT! Our hands are too shaky and our eyes are starting to fail. At the last York show my wife and I had an interesting conversation based on ONE question. Average age of people attending. We figure low to mid 60's. With this in mind and keeping on track with ERR, It makes me realize that some like myself have just returned to the hobby. Others are and have been in for the long haul. Some an afford new engines others can not. For me I would have to buy older new or used engines and possibly get them converted with ERR or some other system. Now with ERR going out I have to wonder as everyone else is -"What are my options?" OUR options are few or many based on each persons PERSONAL feelings. I believe like others that more options are out there or going to come. You can NOT have major train manufacturers installing a system that is going to be extinct in new engines and make sales. SOMEONE is going to step up and either change those systems to an existing one or a new one. Atlas and 3rd Rail can't live on history parts that may no longer be. They, as has been said, are in the same situation we are. Me? I look forward with hope and even some joy. Sure I am upset and sad about the past but it is the past. Just as WE get old so does technology hence the need for change. EVERYONE COMPLAINED WHEN PASSENGER SERVICE DIED with each individual railroad but how many support what is today? IF we support what comes it can be better and greater for everyone including most of all THE HOBBY. AS WE GET OLDER WE NEED TO SUPPORT THE HOBBY! We are like the museums and Preservationist for the FUTURE generations. Our job is to ride the rails and enjoy the ride as 

????? Yes, and a Company to listen to the wants of it' buyer within reason!