Tinplate photos 📸 and videos 📽

@NWL:  Doors, Doors, Doors ... wow you have more doors than the singing group (bad joke).  Neat display.  Thank you for your input on the dating of the 4/8 wheel lithographed cars, it is confusing for sure.  In addition, AF printed 8 wheel cars with either the 1115 or 1112 number (I have a red 8 wheel with the 1112 number) so its really confusing.  Thanks again.

Today, I have a new acquisition to post.  It is an American Flyer " Hummer" locomotive and tender.  As best I can tell from my very limited reference material this example is from about 1924 (really dated by the tender ) although it has some aspects (open bottom motor) which might make it slightly earlier.  The Hummer line was AF attempt to secure more business in the low end of the toy train market. They catalogued "Hummer" trains from 1916- 1927.  Only clockwork , usually cataloged in sets although by 1924 American Flyer did provide a separate price for the loco (no tender) @ 60 cents (reference "American Flyer Prewar O' gauge by Alan R. Schuweiler).

Here is the locomotive and tender , Note the number on the tender is "513" and the loco has added hand rails.  Both of these items help in dating this pair to about 1924.

Here is the underside of the clockwork motor.  At some point, the bottom was closed via a sheet metal cover, my reference material does not give an exact date for this change.

The "Hummer" tender with crackle like finish and the rectangle containing the number "513".  This dates this tender to about 1924 as does the addition of add on hand rails date the loco.

The real of the tender with the name..."The Hummer" and a picture of the AFL winged bird below (hard to discern through the crackle finish )

Well best wishes for a great week...

Don

@Don McErlean posted:

The "Hummer" tender with crackle like finish and the rectangle containing the number "513".  This dates this tender to about 1924 as does the addition of add on hand rails date the loco.

The real of the tender with the name..."The Hummer" and a picture of the AFL winged bird below (hard to discern through the crackle finish )

Well best wishes for a great week...

Don

Was that "crackle finish" intentional or did it happen with age ? Whatever the answer I like it !

@G-Man24 posted:

Was that "crackle finish" intentional or did it happen with age ? Whatever the answer I like it !

The "crackle" or "alligatored" finish occurs, but I am not sure that it would be attributed to age, as it does not happen on all items.  I would suspect that it has something to do with the drying process of the lithograph, but I don't know. 

As NWL said it’s possible it’s age but I don’t know.  The only pictures I have show a smooth finish so it’s clearly at odds with the reference material I have but who knows if that is a complete picture   Good question maybe some others will have an input.

Don

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

The "crackle" or "alligatored" finish occurs, but I am not sure that it would be attributed to age, as it does not happen on all items.  I would suspect that it has something to do with the drying process of the lithograph, but I don't know.

@Don McErlean posted:

As NWL said it’s possible it’s age but I don’t know.  The only pictures I have show a smooth finish so it’s clearly at odds with the reference material I have but who knows if that is a complete picture   Good question maybe some others will have an input.

Don

I've been trying to think where I've seen it before and I just remembered. The Pre War Lionel 439 control panel with the knife switches. I've only seen it happen on the dark maroon Pre-War version not the Gray (?) or post war offerings. Some have it and some don't and to varying degrees. Based upon this I'd say this means it happens with age . Actually I don't know what this means,  it just creates more questions than answers lol.

I've always been a fan of textured paint i.e.,  crinkle, wrinkle, crackle, hammertone, etc. I just think it looks neat on antiques. It gives the item a look and feel of precision and quality.  You could spray wrinkle paint on an old index card and make it look valuable.

@G-Man24 posted:

I've been trying to think where I've seen it before and I just remembered. The Pre War Lionel 439 control panel with the knife switches. I've only seen it happen on the dark maroon Pre-War version not the Gray (?) or post war offerings. Some have it and some don't and to varying degrees. Based upon this I'd say this means it happens with age . Actually I don't know what this means,  it just creates more questions than answers lol.

I've always been a fan of textured paint i.e.,  crinkle, wrinkle, crackle, hammertone, etc. I just think it looks neat on antiques.

Actually, that is more of an orange peel finish and is something to do with the type of paint finish and is entirely different from the lithograph alligatoring.

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

Actually, that is more of an orange peel finish and is something to do with the type of paint finish and is entirely different from the lithograph alligatoring.

Hmmm. Not sure I'd call that "Orange Peel" but I agree it's different. I know orange peel because I've painted plenty of automobiles in "orange peel" .  Unintentionally of course

Gonna wade in with ideas rather than facts on this (lol)

Looking at it from a semi-scientific perspective ...

I think the effect is dependent on both how the surface coat is applied AND the environmental factors the piece experiences over a long time .. all metal expands and contracts with heat and cold , and whether the piece "alligators" or not would be an indicator of how well the elasticity of the topcoat ( paint or litho ) holds up over time ... if the topcoat is not 100% bonded to the entire area , over time the weaker attachment lines will have more stresses on them as they are no longer fully in contact with the underlying metal ( on a molecular level ) thus they crack minutely along weaker "fault lines"  as they are pushed and pulled by the expansion and contraction , and over time the topcoat contracts away from the lightly fixed areas as it no longer has the bonds to keep it taut across the entire surface . the topcoat is still bonded to itself more than the metal or base-coat so even tho the coating doesn't flake off you get "Islands" of coating moving on the surface of the metal or base coat.

  Most surface coatings tension as they dry or lose solvents, its why brush marks even out a little after drying etc ... Even when "dry" coatings continue to off-gas volatile's over a very long time ( in minute amounts ) and its often these volatile's that give coatings their flexibility.. which explains why alligatoring takes a long time and is associated with decent age . The effect could also take place WITHIN the coating itself if the "picture" part is a separate identity from the overall composition.

Litho in particular is several layers of pigment bearing substrate ( ink) applied over each other ... over time each colour layer may also minutely expand and contract at different rates .. the Green over Yellow of Dons AF tender seems to be that way .. the green top ink has moved and contracted over time more than the yellow base ink which has remained tightly affixed to the metal , thus the green ink "islands" have formed and contracted over the years ?

Its what commercial orange peel paints and processes rely on , also Hammerite etc ... the Hammerite is a tough intact coating , but as it dries the pigment components are less attached to the binding matter and they shift to create the distinctive Hammered Look .

The clever bit with them is they keep the outer and inner surfaces of the coating attached to whatever you are painting , allow the alligatoring of the pigment to take place then bind it in super tough top and bottom clear layers to provide a durable overall finish ... they achieve intentionally the same process in minutes rather than the years it takes our toys to

I have the same tender with some of that. Usually see it on pieces that have been clear coated with something like a varnish. The under and upper finish age differently.

Here is a Dorfan, but they did it intentionally.

Steve

@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

I have the same tender with some of that. Usually see it on pieces that have been clear coated with something like a varnish. The under and upper finish age differently.

Here is a Dorfan, but they did it intentionally.

Steve

Love the look of that Dorfan. I guess I have a hard time believing, in the case of Don's AFL tender, that the manufacturer intended it to happen knowing that it could distort the graphics/lettering to the point where it's nearly illegible .

I lifted this 248 to run with my 601 and 602 passenger cars.

I think I like it better sitting up higher.

After a longer time, a lot of news in the collection. But some need help.

A big Karl Bub loco from around 1910.

The tinplate on some parts was destroyed, had made them new.

In the clockwork was a part broken.

Nearly complete, but needs 4 front wheels ( the next to do)

A small Bing loco is missing 3 of the 4 wheels, I make them new.

Had made a mold for hard lead. Left the Bing wheels, right the wheels for the big Bub loco.

A Bing crane car is missing the crank to turn.

But not all need help.

Bing coal car 10/547 from around 1910

Bing car 10328 made 1911-1915

And a very rare Bing acid car 10297 made 1911-1922

Arne

Got this Ives 3242 today.

Arnie:  You are an absolute craftsman...beautiful work.  The "good" cars were also spectacular, I especially liked the "acid" car with the containers never have seen anything like that before.  Thank you for posting.

Don

OK Tinplate Fans, I have something for you that is essentially NONSENSE but IT IS Tinplate!  Now on 2/10 in the "Marx Train Pictures" thread Fatman allowed as he now has 2 pieces of plastic in his collection but would not likely have more...so how can you scenic a layout without using some plastic.  Well here is your solution...I present to you...Lithographed, tinplate rock formations !!

Now tinplate purists you too can have scenery...here they are:

In close up  Both formations are each about 4" long, 2.5" wide and about 1" high at the highest point.  We have flowers, weeds, grass, dirt, and rocks...all presented in lithographed beauty (LOL)!.

I just got these in the mail and they are going on my layout.  Folks...don't take this too seriously it is just for laughs and can't compare with the fabulous trains posted elsewhere.  Just for fun.

Don

@Don McErlean posted:

OK Tinplate Fans, I have something for you that is essentially NONSENSE but IT IS Tinplate!  Now on 2/10 in the "Marx Train Pictures" thread Fatman allowed as he now has 2 pieces of plastic in his collection but would not likely have more...so how can you scenic a layout without using some plastic.  Well here is your solution...I present to you...Lithographed, tinplate rock formations !!

Now tinplate purists you too can have scenery...here they are:

In close up  Both formations are each about 4" long, 2.5" wide and about 1" high at the highest point.  We have flowers, weeds, grass, dirt, and rocks...all presented in lithographed beauty (LOL)!.

I just got these in the mail and they are going on my layout.  Folks...don't take this too seriously it is just for laughs and can't compare with the fabulous trains posted elsewhere.  Just for fun.

Don

I “think” they are by Chein

Steve

Steve:  Thanks for the data...they are not marked in any way, including country of origin hence my assumption that they would be US made and I naturally went to Marx...but pleased to know if they are Chien.

Don

What can I say @Don McErlean .. except tin.... rocks ! ...

Literally ! LOL !

The " Great Train Drought" of 2022 has broken , courtesy yet again of Dutchboy!

He's done a great job finding quite a few early locos that need bits n bobs sourced and replaced , but he tempted me into letting the moths out of the wallet with a glorious 1950's Distler rake to add to the mayhem at Casa Fatmanos .

I am experimenting with this rough 1688E.

@Fatman posted:

The " Great Train Drought" of 2022 has broken , courtesy yet again of Dutchboy!

He's done a great job finding quite a few early locos that need bits n bobs sourced and replaced , but he tempted me into letting the moths out of the wallet with a glorious 1950's Distler rake to add to the mayhem at Casa Fatmanos .

Fatman,

that´s one of the last Distler trains. Loco No 14 LK and coaches No 14C in the rarer blue colour. Made around 1960. Distler had made trains only till 1961.

Arne

Fatman - That's a beauty!!

Tom M - a 1688E in chrome is really neat, wish Lionel had done one that way!

Don

@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

I “think” they are by Chein

Steve

I had once seen who made these a long time ago and forgot !!  I bought 3 of them at York train show 5 or more years ago and now use them with my BarclayManoil soldiers .

@JohnnieWalker:  Hey those tinplate "rocks" look good with the Barclay soldiers.  I am going to make them part of my layout.

Don

Greetings Friends,

I just wanted to share with you a piece of luck I found on Ebay.  It is the Kibri 52-1 large station approximately 28 inches long.  Produced between 1925 and 1930 this was the first of the large Kibri stations.  It was very dirty  and probably turned potential purchasers off.  But, when I cleaned it up it looks pretty good---and it is very rare.  So here is a photo of the 52-1 and by comparison the 52-3 produced between 1929 and 1935.

Wow, @lewrail love it!

@Arne posted:

After a longer time, a lot of news in the collection. But some need help.

A big Karl Bub loco from around 1910.

Arne

Arne, you are amazing.  Love it all. When are you going to write the book?

Lewrail, thanks for sharing your Kibri photo.  I had one and didn't know it, much smaller but nice.  I was able to purchase several tin buildings and it was among them.  Here's the picture.  One day I will have to sell most of them (they take up too much room), but this is probably a keeper, in spite of the rear faded roof.

Nice addition, Lew!!

Thank you friends for the kind comments about my Kibri 52-1 station.  You will be pleased to learn that peace has been declared in Wabanville. The soldiers have left the platform of the station and the travelers have returned.  Enjoy.

Hi Chuck 242  That is a very nice station but it is Karl Bub, not Kibri.  Karl Bub (KBN as seen on your station) produced lithographed stations whereas Kibri 's(Kindler & Briel) stations were painted tinplate or steel. Lew

Thanks Lew, one of those things that I'd never know unless someone told me.  You have some wonderful buildings and I always appreciate these Tin forums, especially the variety and history associated with wonderful and colorful items OGRR members share.  You are right about your new stations being large...28" long makes for a huge footprint.  Nice to know that the peace has been restored too.  All the best, Chuck

Those stations are awesome.  I would station the army men at another post is all, doesn't seem to fit the mood, but never mind me.  I like ladies in pretty dresses much better.  Very cool.

Oh geez now I see you have found a new place for the army guys, I like this look much better.  Didn't see that before my first thought, weird but I'm kind of relieved.  Might be the current events happening.  Nothing against army men, trust me, just seemed out of place.  I'm actually sitting down to watch - To H#// and Back - a small sample of the exploits of Audie Murphy, the most decorated soldier in American history.  I have heard or read there is no way all the things he did could ever be fully told.

Cheers and Peace out,       W1

A while ago I purchased a lot of tin rolling stock and a few engines (and buildings too).  The one I am going to share in this thread caught my eye because it was so well done, it was almost like new - but the Engine and Tender just didn't seem right, even though they had extra detailing and add on's.  This 'Brown' set has been a shelf queen, and the Pullman cars were named after States, and they were numbered.  This weekend, out of curiosity I pulled out the Greenberg guide and looked them up.  My initial thought was holy cow, I am a rich guy...but then I realized that a very talented individual had repainted a set of 'O' gauge cars and Engine etc to replicate a more expensive 'Standard' gauge outfit.  The individual matched the State names and Pullman numbers, some really nice work.  Something like this should be shared with others who have similar interests.  Enjoy.  Chuck

PS - let me know if I did ACTUALLY strike it rich (LOL)

@Chuck242:  That is really a nice set, someone with real skill matched the numbers and colors to produce a "mini" state set.  Some other "oddities" that I noticed are that the cars are definitely pre-war and have pre-war trucks and couplers.  The engine (#675) and the tender however are post war, variations of which were made from 1947-1952 - one of the best post war steamers by the way (at least in my opinion).  So someone must have mounted pre-war trucks or at least couplers to the tender at the end mating to the train. I have a similar set of expert re-paints, they are two 610 Pullman's and an 612 Observation from the 1920's that should be Mojave for their year of manufacturing but someone (very expertly) painted them green and re-did the number plates and name plates.   Why did they do that?  My guess is that they did it to match the green #253 locomotive that came with the cars.  However, they look great and run well and no one can notice the difference unless you are a pre-war collector like me who just had to look !!  So you didn't get rich except in having a great running and good looking passenger set for your personal railroad...not too bad a pay off anyway.

Don

Recently scored these two 500 Prewar standard gauge cars to complete my collection of every color scheme, don’t need every variation.  Been looking for the 513 cream and maroon for a while.  It’s all original and really nice.  Pretty sure the  517 coal set caboose is a restoration, the only car I have that isn’t original, but it’s a beauty so I’m happy with it.  All done, next step is to build a layout and get my track off the floor so my guys have room to run.  Got the switches and track I need so I’m pretty excited about that.

Cheers,       W1

Love the Red and Cream

Ok, who is the genius who buried my favorite topic/thread on the forum in this section.  I looked forward every week to seeing what new things guys had to share in the tinplate forum.  I stumbled on this by accident almost and now see it is not as active and fun as it used to be.

I guess that’s my rant, and I really don’t like to go there, but geez…. Why kill a good thing.  Just sayin…

This is fun, especially in full-screen mode:

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6d88e1

Well, I must admit being taken aback at the comment by pd, not sure what he is driving at but to me this thread has been really great with some postings of trains that I would never have seen any other way. 

So to continue with my own contribution, I did post on 1/14 pictures of my long sought, Marx Monon FM "B" unit, the 4 wheel version.  At that time I believe I noted that they also made an 8 wheel "B" unit, but candidly since I had searched for so long for any "B" unit I doubted that I would ever encounter another one.  Well, that's what is so unique about this hobby. Low and behold, I had the opportunity and did in fact acquire the 8 wheel version of the Monon FM B unit.  Pictures below.

Here is the Marx Monon FM diesel "B" unit, 8 wheel variety.  This really shows the Marx art of lithography, note the use of shadows in the portholes, hatch doors, and vents to give the illusion of depth, the car side is in fact completely flat.

Here is the classic quarter view.

Finally the end view.  I am really impressed with the shadow effect for the end doors.  They look remarkably 3-dimensional and when you look at the item, you would swear that they in fact are openings in the side.  They are not, the doors are completely 2 dimensional and flat.  The optical illusion is really well done.

Well that's my newest tinplate, best wishes to all

Don