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I had that set and the 2-6-4 loco is the correct loco and the cars were one red color, not two tone.

Roland

@Don McErlean posted:

Well I have quite a long post for today but I hope everyone will enjoy it.  While working on an effort to inventory some of my collection, I have been going through some storage boxes that have sat unlooked at since we moved to Texas some 15 years ago.  What I found, according to a note I left in the box, was something that I purchased when I was first starting to collect in Dayton, Ohio from a train show in the late 70's.  So this item has been moved around the country waiting to be "discovered" again for some 45-50 years!!  Anyway I hope you will enjoy this.

This is the outer or set box...it never had a locomotive or tender while I had it, likely missing from the set or perhaps it was not part of the set when purchased new.  Note that the label reads "A.C.Gilbert Company, New Haven, Conn" so it post dates Gilbert's acquisition of American Flyer in February 1938 and the move of train production from Chicago to New Haven.

Well that was a long story and I hope you enjoyed it.  Now I have to find out what locomotive pulled this set and then find that!!  Likely a long process

Best wishes for a great weekend

Don

Don,

Your setbox is clearly stamped 9 for Set 9 of 1938.  Set 9 featured a 4615-6 engine, which would be the 2-6-4 pacific type engine similar to the 1939 425 engine, but with decal identification instead of the rubber stamped numbers.  See below:

NWL - THANK YOU.  I saw the "9" on the box but did not know what it stood for.  Now I have a target for which to "hunt".  Do you think that the engine and tender might have been originally packed in the same box?  Perhaps with only 2 Pullman's and an Obs?

Don

Robert S. Butler :  Schuweiler's book lists a variation with 2 tone red enamel but he lists this ONLY for the Pullmans and not the Observation.  No other explanation.  Given that Flyer was in the process of moving to S scale even though they were maintaining O gauge at this time its possible that the color scheme varied even perhaps to using available stock.  Who knows?  

Thank you for the catalog picture, that helps.  I will now try and find the engine / tender...

Don

@Don McErlean posted:

NWL - THANK YOU.  I saw the "9" on the box but did not know what it stood for.  Now I have a target for which to "hunt".  Do you think that the engine and tender might have been originally packed in the same box?  Perhaps with only 2 Pullman's and an Obs?

Don

Don,

I would think the catalog artwork and description of having 3 coaches and 1 observation would be correct, especially since you have 4 matching cars with the setbox.  I would suspect that the engine and tender would have had individual boxes, similar to the car boxes and everything would have fit into the setbox that you have.

NWL

Roland: Saw your post too late to include your information in the response above.  Certainly makes me feel more comfortable that my set 9 does have the correct cars - at least for some production.  Again thanks for the information on the engine. 

Don

NWL...Yes I fully agree.  The catalog picture with 3 Pullmans and the Observation is strong evidence that the set as I have it is correct.  I agree that the engine and tender were likely packed in similar component boxes to the cars and included in the same outer "set" box.  Makes sense.

Don

Since we have been talking about the red cars and the two-tone versus the single color cars, I thought I should post these cars, which are two-tone red.  I have a set of 3 coaches and 1 observation.  They are 3176 and 3177 cars, which are unlighted.  They also have the "cheap" trucks for lack of a better description, as the trucks are plain, with no journal boxes, and were often used on the champion freight cars and other cheaper cars like the blue streak cars.  I am guessing the cars date to 1937.

The difference between the two tones of the paint is relatively minor, but it is there.  I am sure that Don's single-tone cars are correct, as the condition of the cars, original decals, original boxes/setbox and the fact that he mentions having the set for 45 years or more, point to the originality of the set.

NWL

NWL - I agree it is the same set.  What I can't believe is I missed the number 9 - oh well, mystery solved, and now Don knows what to chase.

Robert / NWL :  Thank you both for driving this "one tone/two tone" discussion to a conclusion.  You are right...now I know what engine to chase, thanks again.  By the way, NWL, I did look up the 3176 / 3177 cars in Schuweiler's book and he does describe the exact configuration you pictured.  His date for those cars would seem to be 1937 as you have mentioned.  These cars were only available (according to him) in 1931 & 1937 and the configuration you showed is the last one he lists.

Great discussion All

Don

I took a closer look at the set box and realized that it has a 5 stamped on it.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

Greg @Greg J. Turinetti  :  You clearly have the 1938 set 5 which compared with my  set 9 has 1 fewer Pullman car and a different (apparently smaller) engine.  Of course I have no engine at the moment but going by what NWL and Robert have posted my proper engine would  be a 2-6-4 as opposed to your 2-4-2.  The catalog reads with a description of the 3171 Pullmans as 8 1/4 inches although they are often called 8 1/2 inch cars.  You have the single tone red like mine and the "automatic" couplers.  Those steel "curl a q's"  could couple automatically but not uncouple I don't believe.  The force of the cars backing into each other forced the coupler to move to the side and then spring back to couple.   The "R" on the box end designates those new for 1938 couplers.  Your cars appear identical to mine.  It is interesting to note however that the decal reading "American Flyer Lines" that appears over the windows on both our cars does NOT appear in the catalog art.

Thanks for posting Greg

Don

@Don McErlean posted:

Greg @Greg J. Turinetti  :  You clearly have the 1938 set 5 which compared with my  set 9 has 1 fewer Pullman car and a different (apparently smaller) engine.  Of course I have no engine at the moment but going by what NWL and Robert have posted my proper engine would  be a 2-6-4 as opposed to your 2-4-2.  The catalog reads with a description of the 3171 Pullmans as 8 1/4 inches although they are often called 8 1/2 inch cars.  You have the single tone red like mine and the "automatic" couplers.  Those steel "curl a q's"  could couple automatically but not uncouple I don't believe.  The force of the cars backing into each other forced the coupler to move to the side and then spring back to couple.   The "R" on the box end designates those new for 1938 couplers.  Your cars appear identical to mine.  It is interesting to note however that the decal reading "American Flyer Lines" that appears over the windows on both our cars does NOT appear in the catalog art.

Thanks for posting Greg

Don

Don,

Actually, the R on the box ends denotes the car color (R = Red).

NWL

NWL: OK that would make sense I had simply interpreted the paragraph from my guide book incorrectly.  In fact it makes more sense than the coupler and might give some insight into why someone took the time to write "Special Coupler" on one of my component boxes on both the bottom and the end.  Thanks

Don

I have dug deep into the bowels to participate in the this part of the thread this week ( no new surprises)

These are the only AF carriages of this "curly coupler" era that I have , They are rough .... its a long way to get here lol!

( but at least there are representing in the Southern Hemisphere! )

Fatman:  As usual a great "add" to our information.  Now we know these cars might have been exported and could be international !  Most interesting is the baggage car, none of the catalog art from the 1938 catalog for either set 5 or set 9 shows a baggage car.  I searched my pre-war Flyer O gauge reference book and did find this car.  It is listed as an "unnumbered, enameled car " and described and shown exactly as you have pictured it.  Especially interesting is that it came with Type XII trucks and the all important Type X coupler (curly q).  It was cataloged as the No 234 R Pullman (no number on car)  in 1939 but likely  would have been available in 1938.

Don

@Don McErlean posted:

Fatman:  As usual a great "add" to our information.  Now we know these cars might have been exported and could be international !  Most interesting is the baggage car, none of the catalog art from the 1938 catalog for either set 5 or set 9 shows a baggage car.  I searched my pre-war Flyer O gauge reference book and did find this car.  It is listed as an "unnumbered, enameled car " and described and shown exactly as you have pictured it.  Especially interesting is that it came with Type XII trucks and the all important Type X coupler (curly q).  It was cataloged as the No 234 R Pullman (no number on car)  in 1939 but likely  would have been available in 1938.

Don

The baggage car is the 6.5 inch version of the 234 baggage car, as Don notes, but it is not the same length as the longer coaches.  It is also a taller and narrower bodied car, so although Fatman's pictures make it look the same size as his cars, it is not.

Additionally, it should be noted that the 6.5 inch cars, including both passenger and freight cars, featured regular hook couplers in 1938 and featured the curly q coupler only in 1939. 

NWL

I believe this is the set that Nation Wide Lines is talking about from 1939.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Greg/NWL :  I agree, I think we all are talking about the 6.5" cars from 1939 with the curly q couplers.  I just checked my set like Greg pictured above and agree those are the cars.  I have one small difference from Greg however, my engine has "401" stamped under the cab window.  You can just make out the small number in the picture below.  Everything else seems identical to the set that Greg pictured above.

Great discussion everyone !

Don

Got a 301 set waiting for a good cleaning:

1939 catalog:

@pd:  Hey your engine matches mine!  Nothing on the boiler side near the boiler front and "401" under the cab window.  Note the curly q coupler on the tender.  Thanks for posting

Don

Since we are posting photos of Set 301, here is mine, although I am not positive about it being set 301 due to the gunmetal gray 401 engine with nickel trim and the streamline tender, which is unusual due to it not having the more common billboard type decal, but rather 2 smaller decals per side.  I note that the set also has 2 coaches and no baggage.  However, it is as found and although it has no boxes, it is in nicely matched condition,

Below it is Set 1 from 1938 with hook couplers and above it is set 303 with blue cars (with an extra coach) with curly q couplers.

NWL

NWL :  I would refer you to Schuwiler's book, pgs 72-73 for what he calls the Type XII tender and pgs 94-95 for a rather lengthy discussion on the Type XX or 401 locomotive.  Too long to quote here, but the key item might be that he mentions the 401 went uncataloged in 36 & 37 and when it returned to the catalog in 1938 it was GREY like yours.  He then states that the locomotive returned to black in 1939.  There is quite a lot of variability in this engine over these late 30's years and Schuwiler takes a number of paragraphs to try and describe the chronological order of things.  To me, such a number of changes speaks to the possibility of quite a number of variations showing up in sets as they were sold, sometimes perhaps even by the dealers at the point of sale.  OBTW beautiful 301 sets, I really loved the blue one.

Just to make matters even more confusing, I have a Type XX loco which appears to date from 1935 but it is a 2-4-0 vice 2-4-4 and has a huge whistle mounted on the back of the motor that basically fills up the cab!

Don

@Don McErlean posted:

NWL :  I would refer you to Schuwiler's book, pgs 72-73 for what he calls the Type XII tender and pgs 94-95 for a rather lengthy discussion on the Type XX or 401 locomotive.  Too long to quote here, but the key item might be that he mentions the 401 went uncataloged in 36 & 37 and when it returned to the catalog in 1938 it was GREY like yours.  He then states that the locomotive returned to black in 1939.  There is quite a lot of variability in this engine over these late 30's years and Schuwiler takes a number of paragraphs to try and describe the chronological order of things.  To me, such a number of changes speaks to the possibility of quite a number of variations showing up in sets as they were sold, sometimes perhaps even by the dealers at the point of sale.  OBTW beautiful 301 sets, I really loved the blue one.

Just to make matters even more confusing, I have a Type XX loco which appears to date from 1935 but it is a 2-4-0 vice 2-4-4 and has a huge whistle mounted on the back of the motor that basically fills up the cab!

Don

Don,

Technically, only one of the sets may be a 301 set.  The red set with 4 cars and the 4603 is Set 1 from 1938 and the blue set with 417 locomotive is set 303 from 1939.

I do have a gray 4603 (that would be the correct number for a 401 type loco in 1938) engine, but it has decals on it, with no actual numbering and copper trim.  The gray 4603 engine is with my 1938 set 1.  The gray 4603 has the streamline type tender, with billboard stripe on it.  My gray 401 engine is lettered 401 (on the side not pictured) and has the nickel trim, similar to the black 401 engines.  That points to my motor actually being from 1939 or later, as the engines were not numbered in 1938.  I have seen a couple of the gray 401 engines sell and they are somewhat difficult to find. 

The whistle in the type XX locomotive is likely one of the uncataloged variations from 1936 or 1937.  I know that I have a number of these motors with the whistles, as well as some of the cheap Hiawatha locos with whistles. 

Here is a picture of the other side of the 401, note the 401 lettering below the cab window.

Here is a picture of the gray 4603, note the copper trim and decals

Here is the 417 locomotive that heads up Set 303 with the blue cars

NWL

Oh well, in for a penny in for a pound....  Here's my 1938 Set #1 - it is a boxed set and has everything listed in the catalog illustration.

Here is a newly restored American Flyer Wide Gauge 4672 running.  Sadly, this engine has been apart for years.  I finally painted it in the summer of 2020 and it sat for another year, before I took it to a friend to re-assemble.  A shout out to Rob English for making some of the steel linkage parts that are attached to the steam chest.

NWL

NWL :  Beautiful 4672 and it seems to run well and smoothly as well.  I have a few std gauge sets (3 Lionel and 1 AF) but no where to run them as I have no room for a std gauge loop.  I was wondering however, behind the 4672 in the last picture is a small black steamer with what appears to be red wheels pulling a green baggage car / coaches...what is that? 

Thanks,

Don

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

Today we are running a c. 1930 Montgomery Ward uncataloged American Flyer set with 3195 engine, Hancock tender, and Illini cars.

The engine last ran in the late 1990s and has been in a box or on a shelf ever since.  I had the engine re-wheeled by someone else in the late 90s and it was sub-par work.  Problem was a replaced axle that had sub-par splines, which resulted in the wheels slipping on the axle and super-glue being applied to try and get the wheels to not slip.  I replaced the axle with no splines and the 2 drive wheels.  I hate sub-par work, but when I first got into prewar Flyer, I did not do my own repairs.  I quickly realized it was too expensive to have others do the work for me and began doing my own repairs.

To answer Don's question about the small engine-tender and green cars behind the 4672, it is the above set.  I just was not running it today.

As for the wheel color on the engine, Flyer painted some of their wheels orange and this engine originally had the orange drive wheels on it, so the replacements are orange as well. 

NWL

NWL:  Thanks, I guess I didn't recognize that guy from your prior post.  I have been looking at a "Hummer" engine and tender and wondered if that was the same (it isn't)...runs great now though.

Don

@Don McErlean posted:

NWL:  Thanks, I guess I didn't recognize that guy from your prior post.  I have been looking at a "Hummer" engine and tender and wondered if that was the same (it isn't)...runs great now though.

Don

Don,

There would be no electric hummer engines.  The hummer line was all windups.  Hummer engines also would have only pulled very small cars.

NWL

Hummer !

(nothing new again this week ... Bummer! )

Just sticking my nose in here to bookmark my return. Some of you may have been wondering who was "Liking" your posts from 6 months ago that was me catching up after a long hiatus. The way my brain is wired I felt obliged to to scrutinize each and every post I had missed to earn my way back in with the Tinplate Gang. Tons of good stuff you guys have ! Happy to be back.

@G-Man24 posted:

Just sticking my nose in here to bookmark my return. Some of you may have been wondering who was "Liking" your posts from 6 months ago that was me catching up after a long hiatus. The way my brain is wired I felt obliged to to scrutinize each and every post I had missed to earn my way back in with the Tinplate Gang. Tons of good stuff you guys have ! Happy to be back.

Hi, G-Man24!  It's good to hear from you!

Dare we hope that you made progress on your layout during the hiatus?

Welcome Back! G-Man 24 !!

Don

Fatman / NWL :  NWL, I embarrassingly did actually know that all the Hummer engines were clockwork, I just had a "senior moment" when I saw your 3195  and forgot that when I asked the question about that engine on the layout.  However the info you provided on that little guy will not go wasted...it will be filed away for future hunt items so Thank you again!

To both of you...I just could not resist the Hummer engine and tender on e-bay and went for it.  The pictures make it look just like yours Fatman and I also purchased a tender. This tender has an interesting lithograph pattern on it and has the number "513" in a rectangle on the side and the words..."The Hummer" over a spreadeagled bird on the rear. I will post pictures when they arrive.

Best wishes to you both.

Don

@palallin posted:

...Dare we hope that you made progress on your layout during the hiatus?

Ashamed to admit it, but minimal progress at best. Hope to change that in the next couple weeks.

@Don McErlean posted:

Welcome Back! G-Man 24 !!

Don

Good to see you again Don, always enjoy your posts.

So desperate to be relevant am I,  that I'm posting some tinplate that is not even mine. My friend is emptying out the house he grew up in after the passing of his dad and he asked if I could list some stuff on that auction site for him. He was bringing me old board games and ashtrays and bottles and I said "you got any good stuff ? you know....slot cars, model trains, hot wheels , stuff like that...? He said "I was gonna throw that junk out !"

So the next time I saw him he had a trunk full of pretty good stuff including this old Marx Tales of Wells Fargo train set. I'm guessing it's "S" guage ?.. unfortunately the Locomotive is missing but the lithographed buildings are pretty neat and the rail cars are nice especially the No.1 baggage car.

Anyway, thought you guys might enjoy seeing it, the graphics on the front and inside of the building are a hoot.

.

@G-Man24  I found one of the carriages ages ago and the William Crookes Set has been on my radar since then!

What a pity it doesnt have the loco ...It should go for a price that might surprise you nevertheless

Mine is in a crappy condition compared to your friends , but its such a departure from "regular" Marx I had to bring it home ( it wuz cheep!)

G-Man24:  that play/trainset is O!  it is obviously not complete, but the pieces there will make some Marx collector VERY happy!  They are in very good condition!  CTT ran an article about these pieces many years ago; if you want, I can try to dig it out.

@Fatman posted:

@G-Man24  I found one of the carriages ages ago and the William Crookes Set has been on my radar since then!

Amazing how this stuff finds it's way around the globe. I thought they would be kind of lightweight but those little Marx cars are surprisingly sturdy.