Removing that will eliminate much of the play value or operational options. The end result will be a roundy-round -YAWN
However, you could then put a nice table there with a scent machine and some flowers.
Carl, one question, what about moving it to one of the corners? Like where the mountain is?
Mike- If you can keep the Y for turning locos, and move that toward the corner maybe you could add an industrial area with several sidings where you can switch cars in and out. I believe there's a guy named Paul a bit east of you who knows a thing or two about industrial switching layouts.
Bob
Im going to work on it a little bit today with scarm!
Mike, So she still likes the idea of the loop that goes outdoors, I take it. If that is the case, you could use the outdoor loop to reverse trains for the inside part of the layout. How much of the year will you have the outdoor loop operational? Of course I would see you wouldn't use it any time of year when it is raining.
My second thought, before I saw Bob already brought it up, is to try what he said and move a wye to a corner, as much as possible. You can turn engines and do switching in the industrial area. I had thought of doing it on my Blackwater Canyon Line plan, but for me it would take up as much room as the return loops, and I really want to turn trains, not just engines. I think that is really what you wanted to do too. Well, that will work for you when the outdoor section is operational.
Hi Mark, I am working on it right now with SCARM, when I am done I will post a picture for comments!
Hi everyone, I got this suggestion for a forum member and I think it would cure my reverse loop problem my wife doesn't like. I will post his suggestion and the SCARM file in case someone whats to try and take it on! I have been working on it for an hour and just suck at it! Here is the suggestion!
I did some quick rough math, if you were willing to consider stacking the reversing loops one over the other, you probably have enough linear length of run at 0.2 inches per foot (1.66% grade) to leave the double track bridge, go up on one side and down on the other ... by the time you get to the corner of your choice your loops should have more than 6.5 inches of elevation difference.... This eliminates the Wye's which take up a ton of real estate at 072 minimum diameter... You might under this scenario be able to incorporate the loops into the corner mountain, so it's not so obvious the train is going around a reverse loop. Or the upper loop could serve as your area for the ND oil loading dock and airstrip.
Also below is the most up to date file I have of my layout!
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Mike, are you and Dave talking about when all said and done stacking loops like he did on mine? Don't forget about access to your window where the tracks to the outdoors exits or to the track in the corner. You are 10 years younger than me, but as you said on a topic with Chris A, he and I were making you hurt, just reading about our senior ailments!! 
I know what you mean about drawing. I finally learned a good bit, but I only made simple alterations as we went along with mine. Dave and Carl are the ones to go to!! Two thumb up!!
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mike g. posted:Hi everyone, I got this suggestion for a forum member and I think it would cure my reverse loop problem my wife doesn't like. I will post his suggestion and the SCARM file in case someone whats to try and take it on! I have been working on it for an hour and just suck at it! Here is the suggestion!
I did some quick rough math, if you were willing to consider stacking the reversing loops one over the other, you probably have enough linear length of run at 0.2 inches per foot (1.66% grade) to leave the double track bridge, go up on one side and down on the other ... by the time you get to the corner of your choice your loops should have more than 6.5 inches of elevation difference.... This eliminates the Wye's which take up a ton of real estate at 072 minimum diameter... You might under this scenario be able to incorporate the loops into the corner mountain, so it's not so obvious the train is going around a reverse loop. Or the upper loop could serve as your area for the ND oil loading dock and airstrip.
Also below is the most up to date file I have of my layout!
This was suggested before and the idea was rejected. However, I went ahead and made the changes again to show what it would look like. I did NOT spend the time to move crossovers around, rework the grades, etc., so I don't know exactly what will fit. That can be done IF you want to pursue the idea further. The idea was to split the circle and raise/lower each reversing loop to get 6" of separation. In the photo, one loop is at 37" and the other is at 43". I'll include the SCARM file so you can mess around with it even though it's not finished.
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I forgot to mention that you cannot put the loops in a corner unless you incorporate access hatches. That is the main reason they are on the peninsula on the first place.
Mike - if you choose to go with a foam overlay, there's no need to spend the extra money on plywood with a sanded/smooth side - the foam will "take up" any imperfections. With 16" centers, 1/2" thick should be sufficient to support you ......... and Tank !!
Hi Dave, I will deal with an access hatch if we can make it a little smaller and in the corner! It will make the wife happy! In which makes my life happy!
That's what we want. Happy wife!
Mike, I'll see about moving the loops to the right and see what kind of grades result, but it might take a few hours or more.
Hi Dave, thank you so very much! Was thinking if it could go where the mountian is it could be his somewhat!
Ok, I'll put it on the left and see how it goes, unless someone else beats me to it. I'm concerned about how much the crossovers will affect the grades.
Thanks for trying Dave!
DoubleDAZ posted:Trouble is, as you can see, O72 loops will simply not fit in the corners because the room is not wide enough.
Best I can do is O54s and I'm sure you don't want that.
Hi Dave,
Just a FYI, but the pics are not showing. The above quote is exactly what I see on the forum.
Thanks. I thought that might be the case, but I couldn't tell from here. I should have just recomposed the post. Hopefully, it's fixed now. 
That’s why I gave up on the thought of 072 on mine very early
Dave, it's fixed now, that looks much better!
Mark Boyce posted:That’s why I gave up on the thought of 072 on mine very early
I remember when the rough drawing (not yours) was posted and I just had to put it in SCARM to show how almost none of it would work in your space before you got too excited about it.
DoubleDAZ posted:Mark Boyce posted:That’s why I gave up on the thought of 072 on mine very early
I remember when the rough drawing (not yours) was posted and I just had to put it in SCARM to show how almost none of it would work in your space before you got too excited about it.
Yes! Thank you again!!!!
I should have added that in this case the desire to reverse trains is a limiting factor. Forget about reversing and just run 2 or more trains in opposite directions and O72 is not a problem. Here's an alternative without the loops and a smaller peninsula.
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So I get home from work and I tell the wife I have the best minds working on the layout plan. She says great maybe you can get some of your room back. If not it is what it is! Sorry Ladies I just don't understand! LOL
My first thought was , you built her a she shed, that’s her domain. I thought the train room was yours. But... I don’t know anything. LOL
mike g. posted:So I get home from work and I tell the wife I have the best minds working on the layout plan. She says great maybe you can get some of your room back. If not it is what it is! Sorry Ladies I just don't understand! LOL
I guess you have 2 things to work out; the definition of "your" room and why you'd want any of it "back". What else would you use the space for? Sounds like she thinks you should be able to use the room for more than just trains, like a seating area to relax and watch TV or something.
DoubleDAZ posted:mike g. posted:So I get home from work and I tell the wife I have the best minds working on the layout plan. She says great maybe you can get some of your room back. If not it is what it is! Sorry Ladies I just don't understand! LOL
I guess you have 2 things to work out; the definition of "your" room and why you'd want any of it "back". What else would you use the space for? Sounds like she thinks you should be able to use the room for more than just trains, like a seating area to relax and watch TV or something.
Mike, What Dave said sounds like what I was thinking, not that she was trying to commandeer any of the room. I worded it poorly when I commented on the she shed as her domain, and the train room your domain. Shame on me, I didn't mean to speak negatively about her motives.
Try to get a realtor to understand what you are looking for in a train room. 
Thanks Guys, we sat down last night and had a nice talk. She just doesn't understand trains and what I want it to do. She just thought the reverse loop area was a waste of space for such a nice room. When I explained it to her and that the great minds of the forum couldn't make it work that is was going to have to stay where it is and after showing her the train simulator on SCARM she got the picture!
I want to thank everyone who worked on this and sorry for your wasted time on me! So just so everyone is clear including my wife, LOL Things are staying the same. Sure I might do a little tweeking here and there but the base plan is the same!
Thank you all again!
Mike, Yes, I can understand her perspective. All of us even think we can fit more yard tracks or wider curves into a space. That is why the software and those who know how to use it are so valuable, they can prove out what will and won't fit without much effort. Saves a lot of wood and frustration for us later on.
No need to apologize at all. Every idea is worth a look to see if it can be made to work. Look at my topic in my signature line. There are a multitude of ideas on it, and some of them Dave whipped something up in a few minutes while watching television. He was back to me with something before I even got up out of the chair! Tell your wife, we appreciate her thoughts, she may have another that will be a revelation to us all! I'm serious. My wife looked at my benchwork in the 11x11 room, and decided the kids were out of the house, the crappy furniture could go, and lets use the space for a bigger layout and a sewing area.
Your right Mark! the wife's in our life's are invaluable ! They just like visitors see things you never even thought of. But just like this, they don't always work!
Hey, my wife doesn't understand half the stuff I do or want, so you're in good company. She hates the prices and I buy the more inexpensive Rail King engines that will all run on tight curves. At one time I had a 10x21 room indoors all to myself, but once the beds were moved out, that changed in a hurry. Now it's a craft/sewing room and there is barely space for a 4x8x10 L-shaped layout and that will be designed mostly for her Bedford Falls collection of buildings/figures.
And that was the best use of the SCARM Simulation feature I've heard. I'm glad she gets it now and you can move on. Are you going to pursue the stacked reversing loop design? If so, I'll try to fiddle with the grades some time today and see what elevations I can come up with.
Hi Dave, I am still thinking about it. But I am not sure, I have to see how it looks on SCARM to see if I like how it runs!
Hey Mike,
Glad to see you moving forward with your layout!!!
SCARM can be a real handy tool to see what you can actually get away with!
Keep us posted, I'm eagerly awaiting your progress.
Thanks Mo! Things are moving in the right direction! I am going to do some tweaking, curving the main lines and changing the elevation of some of the buildings and a little track elevation! I will be working on it a little today after I take Tank the inspector to the vet, and then hope to work on it this weekend!
I hope Tank comes back ready for action!!
Thanks Mark! He has some anul bleeding problem!
But I have been out in the train room and build a jig for drawing out big sweeping curves, instead of having straight sections. It will give me a little curve back to the main line before the reverse loop. but that's ok cause I don't want them to run perfectly straight everywhere!
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mike g. posted:Hi Dave, I am still thinking about it. But I am not sure, I have to see how it looks on SCARM to see if I like how it runs!
Works for me. I did a little fiddling with the elevations and came up with this possible scenario. Note the road goes under the upper loop and across the lower loop. I placed the runway higher on par with the upper loop. The road will have to go up to the refinery and then up again to the runway. Allowing for 1 track before the switches, the grades come out to 2.3% and 2.7%.
I also reduced the loops to minimum O72 size and you can see the difference in space needed in the 3rd photo. Not sure I like it, but thought I'd show it.
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