Under The Hood: The Amazing Derailing K-Line Alcos!

Nice job, Mitch!!

Mitch, I think you made of lot of extra work for yourself here. I've written about it before and have been doing it for many years... inserting a spring with a washer on top over the guide pin of the truck will eliminate the pop up truck problem. At least it has for me every time. And the spring you showed doesn't look much heavier than the ones I use. That should have done the trick for you. Again, maybe just stretching the spring some.

As an aside, I don't throw away anything without stripping it for any reusable parts... even small screws are very handy. I've had circuit boards go bad on electronic devices like CD or DVD players, and yet the DC motors still work, so I save those for projects. Years ago at work, some computer keypads were tossed out. These were old types with springs underneath the keys... those are the springs I'm using to this very day. Sometimes I use two of them together, and usually I have to pull on the spring to stretch it a bit for its' new found purpose.

On the e-unit, every K-Line engine of this type (S-2, RDC, MP-15, Alco FA) I have ever bought (which is MANY) has always defaulted to forward. Which leads me to believe you just needed to reverse all the wires going to the motors so that the default direction would be in the forward direction.

Also, did you buy these engines used? Because of one your units has the "L" shaped supports running on each side of the frame. The other one does not. To the best of my memory, K-Line started doing this when they upgraded the Alcos with metal handrails in place of the molded plastic ones, and metal steps on the rear of the loco and on the fuel tank part of the loco shell. And also metal decorative horns on the locos instead of the push-in plastic ones.

A key point here is to look inside the shell and see if any grinding has been done to the molded in support on the shell. You can't just swap shells from the pre-frame support models, because that shell support will hit the frame support. I learned this one the hard way. Again, the molded in rear steps on the engine shell are an indication that these are older version Alco's.

I've also bought quite a few Alco FA A-A units and never encountered the issue shown in your one photo of the two coupled units going off the track on a 027 curve. I know some of my early Alco A-A's had longer length operating couplers. Matter of fact, K-Line made those dummy couplers in different lengths, so again (along with the lack of "L" supports on your dummy unit) it leads me to believe you got these used and someone previously had altered them.

BUT as far as K-Line production, anything is possible. If you have any quantity of K-Line locos of this type, you'll notice traction tires are mounted all over the place: Sometimes on just geared-wheel side of the motor truck, some times on each side of the same axle wheel set, and some times diagonally, with one tire on the geared wheel and then on the non-geared wheel of the other axle. I've bought brand new sealed units that had traction tire grooves on the dummy unit, and others that didn't. Even had one dummy unit that actually had traction tires on it... good deal for me. I took them off and used them on powered units.

I'm also really surprised you don't have any self adhesive automotive tire weights. I used to buy them by the bulk box... they're very handy for easily adding some weight to a locomotive without all the extra effort you went to.

@brianel_k-lineguy posted:

Mitch, I think you made of lot of extra work for yourself here.

In this case, it was a necessity.  These units are going into museum service, so I can't afford malfunctions with a crowd of visitors watching. 

I've written about it before and have been doing it for many years... inserting a spring with a washer on top over the guide pin of the truck will eliminate the pop up truck problem. At least it has for me every time. And the spring you showed doesn't look much heavier than the ones I use. That should have done the trick for you. Again, maybe just stretching the spring some.

Tried the spring, no joy.  Even the rubber grommet didn't help, which is why I opted to run the powered unit in the back.

As an aside, I don't throw away anything without stripping it for any reusable parts... even small screws are very handy. I've had circuit boards go bad on electronic devices like CD or DVD players, and yet the DC motors still work, so I save those for projects. Years ago at work, some computer keypads were tossed out. These were old types with springs underneath the keys... those are the springs I'm using to this very day. Sometimes I use two of them together, and usually I have to pull on the spring to stretch it a bit for its' new found purpose.

Sound and statesmanlike policy. 

On the e-unit, every K-Line engine of this type (S-2, RDC, MP-15, Alco FA) I have ever bought (which is MANY) has always defaulted to forward. Which leads me to believe you just needed to reverse all the wires going to the motors so that the default direction would be in the forward direction.

I contemplated that, but an additional factor was that I was smelling heated electronics from the E-unit and didn't want to risk a breakdown in front of the customers.   So, Keep It Simple, Silly. 

Also, did you buy these engines used? Because of one your units has the "L" shaped supports running on each side of the frame. The other one does not. To the best of my memory, K-Line started doing this when they upgraded the Alcos with metal handrails in place of the molded plastic ones, and metal steps on the rear of the loco and on the fuel tank part of the loco shell. And also metal decorative horns on the locos instead of the push-in plastic ones.

A key point here is to look inside the shell and see if any grinding has been done to the molded in support on the shell. You can't just swap shells from the pre-frame support models, because that shell support will hit the frame support. I learned this one the hard way. Again, the molded in rear steps on the engine shell are an indication that these are older version Alco's.

Got 'em off the Bay in a sealed factory box, but the Bay is always a c**pshoot. 

I've also bought quite a few Alco FA A-A units and never encountered the issue shown in your one photo of the two coupled units going off the track on a 027 curve. I know some of my early Alco A-A's had longer length operating couplers. Matter of fact, K-Line made those dummy couplers in different lengths, so again (along with the lack of "L" supports on your dummy unit) it leads me to believe you got these used and someone previously had altered them.

Definite possibility.

BUT as far as K-Line production, anything is possible. If you have any quantity of K-Line locos of this type, you'll notice traction tires are mounted all over the place: Sometimes on just geared-wheel side of the motor truck, some times on each side of the same axle wheel set, and some times diagonally, with one tire on the geared wheel and then on the non-geared wheel of the other axle. I've bought brand new sealed units that had traction tire grooves on the dummy unit, and others that didn't. Even had one dummy unit that actually had traction tires on it... good deal for me. I took them off and used them on powered units.

Actually, the dummy does have traction tires, which makes a certain amount of sense from a production standpoint.  Do a truck run, don't bother resetting for plain wheels, just leave off the motors and gears. 

I'm also really surprised you don't have any self adhesive automotive tire weights. I used to buy them by the bulk box... they're very handy for easily adding some weight to a locomotive without all the extra effort you went to.

I've used 'em in the past, and they're handy, but I didn't have any on hand, so... 

Mitch

Sure seems like a whole lot of work. Brian's solution appears much easier. I had one of these K-Line ALcos years ago, and similarly the front truck kept derailing on 0-31 and 0-36 curves. I think I solved it, at least partially, by running the powered unit behind the dummy.

@breezinup posted:

Sure seems like a whole lot of work. Brian's solution appears much easier. I had one of these K-Line ALcos years ago, and similarly the front truck kept derailing on 0-31 and 0-36 curves. I think I solved it, at least partially, by running the powered unit behind the dummy.

One would think that with the deep 3r flanges, this wouldn't be a problem. It must be something with the way the trucks are mounted that gives them so much free play as to lift the wheel that high to climb a rail.

By the way Mitch, as an after-thought, I hope you don't think I was being overly-critical of you, because that was not my intent at all. Yeah, you went through a lot of work, but if you got it running good now, mission accomplished. And it was a learning experience along the way. Not to mention entertaining your cat.

I've certainly undertaken a few re-build projects where I certainly ended up doing far more work than I initially envisioned. I remember doing a re-build on one of the dreaded Bakelite enclosed motor Scout locos. I knew it would be a dog of a project before I even started, but I did get it running better than it ever had. And yeah, it was a lot of trial and error to get to that final worthwhile point. But working on something inexpensive like that was well worth it as a learning project - even if it was a lot of effort.

@brianel_k-lineguy posted:

By the way Mitch, as an after-thought, I hope you don't think I was being overly-critical of you, because that was not my intent at all.

Heavens, no!  I'm always open to criticism.  Never too old to learn something new, particularly from an expert. 

Yeah, you went through a lot of work, but if you got it running good now, mission accomplished. And it was a learning experience along the way. Not to mention entertaining your cat.

Which is the important part, at least as far as Norma is concerned. 

I've certainly undertaken a few re-build projects where I certainly ended up doing far more work than I initially envisioned. I remember doing a re-build on one of the dreaded Bakelite enclosed motor Scout locos. I knew it would be a dog of a project before I even started, but I did get it running better than it ever had. And yeah, it was a lot of trial and error to get to that final worthwhile point. But working on something inexpensive like that was well worth it as a learning project - even if it was a lot of effort.

Hear, hear.  Having rebuilt one of those little indefinites in the past, I salute you! 

Mitch

Mitch,  It's been a while but I had the derailing issue with a set of NYC FAs on my old 027 layout going up a too steep grade.  Running the dummy in the lead, and I don't mean me, solved the issue.  Yours being on a museum layout I can see why that wasn't a sufficient solution.

That's crazy. I have a few sets of these and never had a problem with any of them, even on O27. Good luck.