Vintage brass what do we have here?

Dropped by Norms  O  scale in Casco Maine... this engine runs in one direction only on DC. what can be done so it operates in both directions? Motor has brushes...20180420_10135920180420_101354

If it ain't broke,break it and make it better

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Bill,

   That is what the E in the Lionel 263E stands for, it allows the engine to operating in both directions both FWD and REV.  Many of the 1st generation Trains had no E units.

It maybe easier to engineer the new ERR controls into her however, would give her sound and all!

PCRR/Dave

Never worry about what other people think, be strong and walk in the way of the Lord.

Paul,

Good catch I did not see the AF E unit, maybe he can get one some place and simply replace it.  I believe SCD is correct, looks to be an old Japanese pre War upgraded engine, with a couple different American manufacturers parts.

Definitely looks like a WillyGee project engine for sure!

PCRR/Dave

Never worry about what other people think, be strong and walk in the way of the Lord.

International Model Products (IMP), Japan, c. 1956 if my info. is correct.  Produced in both 2 and 3-rail versions.  I came across one several years ago that had the same open-frame motor and e-unit, and I had Frank Timko put in a can motor, electronic e-unit, and better pickup rollers.  Before:

before

I replaced/added detail, painted/lettered, and voila:

after

It runs well, fairly slowly, through the original reduction gears.  I love neat, unusual little engines like this.  Have fun with it!

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I think we need a bit more information, to be honest. Is this engine 2 rail O (if you look at the trucks, does it have the roller for the third rail?). If not, this is a 2 rail O and as someone else said, reverse the polarity of the power coming in (swap the neutral and hot lead)  and the direction will change (basically the same thing as an HO scale engine, where on a simple power pack there is a direction switch that reverses the polarity).

Three rail normally uses a reversing unit, on older engines it was a mechanical unit called an e-unit, that used a solenoid and drum to reverse polarity, later engines use solid state units to do the same thing. In theory if you put dc right to the motor and reverse the polarity of the wires as far as I know it should reverse it as well, the e-unit was allowing a remote changing of direction,at the motor it is reversing polarity the same way. 

 

The person who dies with the best toys dies a happy person
bigkid posted:

I think we need a bit more information, to be honest. Is this engine 2 rail O (if you look at the trucks, does it have the roller for the third rail?). If not, this is a 2 rail O and as someone else said, reverse the polarity of the power coming in (swap the neutral and hot lead)  and the direction will change (basically the same thing as an HO scale engine, where on a simple power pack there is a direction switch that reverses the polarity).

Three rail normally uses a reversing unit, on older engines it was a mechanical unit called an e-unit, that used a solenoid and drum to reverse polarity, later engines use solid state units to do the same thing. In theory if you put dc right to the motor and reverse the polarity of the wires as far as I know it should reverse it as well, the e-unit was allowing a remote changing of direction,at the motor it is reversing polarity the same way. 

 

Sorry for the delay..was driving, anyway yes it has a 3 rail pickup.

If it ain't broke,break it and make it better

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Paul,

Good catch I did not see the AF E unit, maybe he can get one some place and simply replace it.  I believe SCD is correct, looks to be an old Japanese pre War upgraded engine, with a couple different American manufacturers parts.

Definitely looks like a WillyGee project engine for sure!

PCRR/Dave

Definitely looks like a WillyGee project engine for sure!

Not for me...i am so DCS digital it is pitifulThe tech involved with this is more of a DCC guy and was thinking of a can motor and Loksound ESU. These mechanical e units have me buffalowed but then again i just figured out how to repair our toilet.

If it ain't broke,break it and make it better

Either way, that appears to be an AC/DC motor.  The simplest thing is to stick a two dollar bridge rectifier in there, and run it on DC.

The only reason Lionel and 3-rail is still AC is tradition.  Most motors are now DC, so converting the transformer to DC could be done once at the transformer, or multiple times at each locomotive.  If you do it at the locomotive, you also need a complicated E-unit.  Makes no technical sense.

bob2 posted:

Either way, that appears to be an AC/DC motor.  The simplest thing is to stick a two dollar bridge rectifier in there, and run it on DC.

The only reason Lionel and 3-rail is still AC is tradition.  Most motors are now DC, so converting the transformer to DC could be done once at the transformer, or multiple times at each locomotive.  If you do it at the locomotive, you also need a complicated E-unit.  Makes no technical sense.

Wouldn't they need some form of reversing unit to change the polarity? If they are running off an a/c transformer, they assume the unit will respond to the power off/on as cycling direction. If they simply put a bridge rectifier on there, they would need some sort of reverse unit to change the polarity, or it would work in whatever direction they had the hot and return side wired on the engine. 

The person who dies with the best toys dies a happy person
Engineer-Joe posted:
willygee posted:

Not for me...

So we can't melt it down for more diesels? 

What temp does brass melt... ? This is a cool little engine though...smooth action but next to my  premiere sd 70's ,Mac's and ES44's...soooo tiny.

If it ain't broke,break it and make it better

DC/AC and the number of rails are not connected. A DC loco could use a 3-rail system - those old outside third rail locos were often DC - and a 2-rail system could certainly be run on AC power. It has to do with the motor being set up for AC or DC, not the route of the current.

BTW - Right-of-Way made a 3-rail version of this B&O so-called "Dockside" back in the 80's. Well-done, runs smoothly, nicely detailed.  I see them on eBay for $200 - $300. I like projects, but if you can buy it ready to go... 

willygee posted:
Engineer-Joe posted:
willygee posted:

Not for me...

So we can't melt it down for more diesels? 

What temp does brass melt... ? This is a cool little engine though...smooth action but next to my  premiere sd 70's ,Mac's and ES44's...soooo tiny.

You know, I've never asked how hot the torch is!! I light it, adjust it a little, and start cuttin'....

If you can strap it to a flat car for a load, it may work. That huge motor taken out of a table or floor fan back in the 50's, has to go. It 'll mess up your diesel rumble broadcast!!

" on Sour mash and cheap wine " ??

Why go back to DCC when I have DCS!

No - the AC/DC motor can use the bridge rectifier to ensure that the stator or field winding gets the same polarity regardless of track polarity.  Then, a simple DPDT switch at the power pack controls motor rotation direction.

The bridge rectifier is about the size of a quarter.  Easy to hook up.

Just to clarify for Willy Gee and others.

This is a model of the Baltimore and Ohio C-16 0-4-0T switcher, commonly referred to as the Docksider because of its design and ability to negotiate tight track areas along the docks of Baltimore and Philadelphia.

Four units were made in 1912. Nos. 97 and 98 served their entire lives in their original configuration. Nos 96 and 99 were converted to traditional coal-burning 0-4-0 switchers, with added tenders and their saddle tanks removed and reclassified C-16a.

The C-16 Docksiders have been made by IMP, ROW and US Hobbies in brass and by MTH in diecast in O gauge. The MTH model is readily available on the secondary market.

Jim R. 

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