Vision line Bigboy in for repair

How much is too much oil?  I am assuming more than 15-20 drops??

Wow, not good. Have a Lionel SD70 that leaks fluid so bad we no longer use the smoke unit. It was wimpy at best running on 16 volts and not worth cleaning the mess. Did they say how the fluid ruined the boards?

Yep, I tend to keep the smoke switch in the off position because of this and few other reasons... Smoke makes a great photo opp. but mostly I leave it off.

I got smoke fluid on the boards of my one of my VL Centipedes. The loco would run for about 30 feet then stall. I opend it up and cleaned off the boards now all is well. Sorry to hear of your misfortune

I  Try to put 10 to12 drops. Never thought that was to many. I think I'm with  J DADY turn them off.BOBBYD They did'nt say.

I think Lionel is setting a bad precedent not honoring the warranty in this case.

they have you on a technicality but they have a point. they could be generous and fix the problem for free. Heck I once sent an Allegheny in for some minor work and they sent back a whole brand new engine. so they can be generous

Bob C.

 in the past I have sent engines in that the tech said too much fluid and they were covered under warranty.

not a smart move for Lionel.

why couldn't lionel make a removable section over the smoke unit so the entire engine does not need to be taken apart??? 

bigdodgetrain posted:

why couldn't lionel make a removable section over the smoke unit so the entire engine does not need to be taken apart??? 

Tooling $$ - the shells would all have to be designed with different pieces. That inflates the cost quickly.

If an engine has smoke fluid covering the PCBs then that typically means too much was added. So that voids the warranty. 

Warranties cover manufacturer problems. A flooded engine is not the fault of the manufacturer.

They should have somthing to protect  those circuit boards.

Fluid covering the PCBs with 10 to 12 drops? I'm not perfect but I full all my steam engines the same way And never had a problem.

I think Lionel is setting a bad precedent not honoring the warranty in this case.

On the contrary, I think that Lionel is setting an excellent precedent. This clearly is not a warranty item. Why should Lionel pay the bill for someone's operator error and/or not reading the engine's manual?

This engine's cost was in the neighborhood of $2,000. If you pay that much for something, it's only common sense to take care of it. This problem was completely avoidable.

Bunk. I think Lionel covering the Vision Line warranty for an over $2K dollar engine would have been perfect PR for an over filled smoke unit. And as you say, most will be more careful with this expensive engine, so it won't break the bank. This isn't grammar school, it's good business.

Well, this confirms my suspicions about smoke units. The tightrope act between running dry and burning the wicking vs over filling and dripping on electronics is not fun.

A "warranty item?"

Maybe not. But definitely proof positive that these things are really VERY poorly designed!

Seems the "anti-smoke" guys are correct. These smoke units, poorly designed as they are,  are best left turned off!

cjack posted:

Bunk. I think Lionel covering the Vision Line warranty for an over $2K dollar engine would have been perfect PR for an over filled smoke unit.

Why does Lionel NEED such "PR"?

And as you say, most will be more careful with this expensive engine, so it won't break the bank. This isn't grammar school, it's good business.

Exactly right, i.e. "good business" to CONTROL your warranty costs. Besides, sometimes you simply can NOT fix stupid!

FYI, that engine comes apart in less than a minute.  A very well designed locomotive.  

The last time my VL Hudson was at Lionel, they told me it would coat $100.00 plus parts, on the memo they sent explaining the cost, mentioned there was too smoke fluid but the fluid was not my issue. I just needed a part or 2 replaced about $110.00.. It looks like Lionel could make overfilling less likely but this old guy does not have the answer

Brent

cpbill posted:

I  Try to put 10 to12 drops. Never thought that was to many. .....

When it starts to smoke less, you add 10 to 12 drops of smoke fluid? That's what I do. My manual says 10 to 20 drops refill.

Chuck, If anything is the fault of Lionel, they are very good standing behind things.  They spend a few bucks making the book that one gets with the engine.  If someone chooses not to read the book and super fills the smoke unit leading to damage, Lionel should charge.   I have refused to work on these smoke fluid dripping locomotives.  Everything I work on gets fully tested on my layout and I do not want any of these engines on my track.

I have a few locomotives and I still read every book before operating.

EBT Jim,  you are doing things right.  I am willing to bet you never had to send a fluid soaked locomotive back to Lionel.

So what brand of fluid was used in this loco? I believe there was a thread about this a while back. A lot of guys were using other brands against Lionels recommendations. I also thought Lionel made the point that their premium fluid would not harm their boards.

The instructions say that the 3.0 ml dropper supplied by Lionel can be filled to about 3/4th way to the first line, which is 0.5 ml, for most engine's smoke unit. That's about 0.4 ml. The Vision Line Big Boy, they recommend 0.5 ml in each of the smoke units in it.

So I put in about 0.25 ml. I don't know how repeatable drop sizes are. I bought some 1 ml droppers and it makes it easier to fill with 0.25 ml each time. I figure I don't run it dry...don't even have a good idea when it's dry-ish. I don't want to burn it up.

So...I guess if Lionel is going to supply us with mystery smoke units, they can stand behind them for an occasional overfill.

And as for the manuals, I think it's obviously standard that we read them carefully when we have an issue. If you sit down with the manual and read it completely before you have questions, good for you. But it's not the norm, and Lionel and the rest of the manufacturing world knows that. Maybe a better dropper delivery system is the answer. So get real and either fix the mystery or fix the engine.

Hard to find out exactly what's in Lionel or other smoke fluids. But it seems to be either glycerine or propylene glycol. I believe they attract water or at least mix well with water. So that sounds like it would not be good for circuit boards in the long run.

I wonder what is in Mega Steam's smoke fluid eliminator? I found that it is difficult to remove the smear from the paint on engines, but a small amount of a product called Plexus on a soft rag seems to clean it up very well.

Most smoke units seem to be able to handle 10-15 drops of fluid, or about 3/4" in a Mega-steam dropper. The wadding will generally absorb that and keep it from running out of the engine, even if the engine is inverted for a short time, like to remove the shell. Here's the big thing to watch though: If you have just put in 10-15 drops of fluid and it won't make smoke; putting more fluid in it won't help. There's a reason it isn't smoking, and you need to find out why. If it's a little overfilled, simply running it around the layout for a few minutes will often clear it, and it will start smoking. If that doesn't work, it's onto the repair pile.

I have never lost a board due to smoke fluid spillage; a speaker in a diesel, yes, but that's another story.

Rod

TrainingDave posted:

bigdodgetrain posted:

why couldn't lionel make a removable section over the smoke unit so the entire engine does not need to be taken apart??? 

Tooling $$ - the shells would all have to be designed with different pieces. That inflates the cost quickly.

 

If an engine has smoke fluid covering the PCBs then that typically means too much was added. So that voids the warranty. 

Warranties cover manufacturer problems. A flooded engine is not the fault of the manufacturer.

but lionel was able to move all the switches to the top of the engines and make removable parts held with small magnets. 

the same could be done with the area over the smoke unit.

now that lionel is using 3D printers for proto typing their engines it would be no issue to incorporate this.

jini5 posted:

. I also thought Lionel made the point that their premium fluid would not harm their boards.

I do not remember that.

maybe someone will chime in.

Marty is wright if you read the owners manual it states more than one time MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF SMOKE FLUID IS 20 DROPS ,WARING OVERFILLING WILL CAUSE LEAKAGE ON THE THE ELECTRONICS , AND THEY RECOMMEND USING THERE FLUID FOR OPTIMAL PERFORMANCE only . All this is in the vl big boy manuel , the average is 10 to 12 drops in each stack , and if you run in conventional to turn off one stack because it could case damage . they really stress in bold letters not to over fill ,because of leakage on the electronics . SO guess what it doesn't mater , what fluid you  use if you over fill , the electronics will be affected, and that constitutes misuse , plain and simple . i was a major appliance and refrigeration tech for the last 15 years before i retired , and had to many calls to count , that the problem was caused by the consumer not reading the owners manual, techman          

I seen fluid on the boards on several vision line big boys . I cleaned them and they all worked fine here.  

I gave up on measuring and counting drops and do it straight out of the bottle. After many experiments on MTH and Lionel smoke units I have developed a feel on how much to squeeze out of the bottle and how often to do it. Once you develop the feel it becomes more fun to operate the smoke feature. But you must train yourself. I have never had spillage or a prematurely dried out wick.

Bob C.

From my experience I have had lots of issues with Lionel smoke units. I have always followed directions on fills but there are design flaws in the some of their system.s If an air bubble forms then any fluid added after that can potentially flow out onto electronics. Should the design of the smoke unit have twists and turns on the flow then adding fluid will have to twist and turn to get into the wicking. Some Lionel designs are better but there are other companies that have better smoke units that run day and night without these issues. I understand Lionel and their policy but it does not leave a lot of warm and fuzzy feelings in people. Someone should design a smoke fluid fill gauge, like a fuel tank gauge, to tell the user how full is full.

you must explore smoke units to get a true feel for them. if you are a smoke person it does pay to buy a spare unit from Lionel or MTH and experiment with it.

Bob C.

What an interesting thread. We have one poster calling the person with the problem stupid. And the post is still there after 14 hours.
Then there are those who defend Lionel in all circumstances, and those who **** Lionel.

Does the locomotive's owner's manual include a "quick start guide" that includes a warning  about overfilling the smoke unit? Many other products come with these guides when their full manuals are thick with information that few read.

I read this thread, and I think that I'll stick with my postwar smoke pellet engines. Other than the 1946 models, its hard to fill them with enough smoke material to make the smoke unit overflow. (Sure you can fill it to the point of not working).

$300 is a big penalty to pay for what should have been a minor mistake.

CPBILL,  indicated that he used 10-12 drops which is below what is stated in the manual.  I agree that if the electronic circuit boards need to be placed under or in the vicinity of the smoke unit it should be PROTECTED against the possibility of any fluid coming into contact with it.  After all by this time Lionel should know its customer base by now and realize that smoke fluid will at some point find its way outside of the smoke unit (either by design flaw or overfill). 

I see it as Lionel's problem not the customer, who was simply following directions.   Why should a poor design be the customers fault.  The customer paid $2,000 dollars for the engine.  This isn't a pedy sum of money for many.  

I understand fully about the warning in the owners manual.   But that only tells me that they were aware of the existence of the problem and CHOSE not to find a remedy to the issue.  

My goodness they've been in business for 110+ yrs, it's about time they were to shore up their designs to avoid issues like these.  

I agree with the post reply above. the smoke feature needs more design work. it can be managed as it now is but only after specific study by the owner.

Bob C.

I have several VL loco and legacy I also have MTH proto 2 and 3 and I cant tell you how many of my lionel smoke units stop working, burn up or produce so little smoke of all my VL and legacy units all have had smoke unit failure of some type.  As for my MTH units I have had very little issue with there smoke units, I know people will say they have problems but not at the rate of Lionel.  I also have some tmcc units as well and have not one problem with them, Maybe Lionel needs to make a more reliable smoke unit instead of getting fancy  they need to go back to a more reliable unit

If you add the recommended amount of drops to the smoke unit that is already full you'll have a problem. Fluid should only be added to a unit that is known to be empty (i.e. not putting out smoke). If drops are added and the unit is still not smoking, do not put more fluid into it. There's obviously another issue w/ the engine.

One thing I do when I pack my engines away is I stick a rolled up paper towel in the smoke stack to keep the fluid from coming out and getting all over the place. Even with the batting, the fluid will come out of the unit if it is inverted, etc.

Most owner manuals say right at the beginning not to overfill the locomotive. Most people don't read these, but some do and still add too much. But also a thing to note is that in some engines, the smoke units are pre-filled from the factory. Always check to see if a smoke unit will smoke when operating for the first time. If it does, do not add more fluid unit it stops smoking.

Also to note - running an empty smoke unit will NOT damage the batting material or the heating element. This has been stated time and time again by Lionel. The residue left in the batting material are the impurities from the smoke fluid, not charred batting. This is why Lionel Premium is recommended in Lionel engines w/ fan driven units. There is no damage done to a dry smoke unit.

I don't have a dog in this fight but, as an interested observer, the best solution would be to make the whole  smoke unit fueling operation more simple and  "fool" proof.  After all, you aren't fueling a moon rocket.  The smoke unit should be much more user friendly  because a lot of people aren't eye dropper experts it seems. You have a $2,000 engine and using a 2 cent dropper to fill the smoke unit. Great.

Ya' know, this forum is choc-a-bloc FULL with people who understand these toys inside and out.

That's a good thing! It's why I came here in the first place.

But nobody is born with this knowledge! Many never acquire it. They have lives that are centered on other matters and trains are a simple diversion that they never bother to delve into deeply enough to become masters of. Nothing wrong with that!

I am of the opinion, now that I understand how smoke units work, that they are accidents waiting to happen. Best to use them with great care . . . and probably best to use them only occasionally.

There was a thread here in the past year by a pretty knowlegeble fellow about how his VLBB had a prodigious appetite for fluid. And that far more than the niggardly owner's manual recommendation produced great results. And very frequent refillings were necessary too. Sounds like a recipe for trouble, no?

I'd look for a another serviceman if one refuses to work on a repair he thinks might be messy. Cleaning up the engine and explaning things patiently would be a better attitude IMO.

CPBILL,  indicated that he used 10-12 drops which is below what is stated in the manual.

Not exactly correct. He said:

"I  Try to put 10 to12 drops."

That's a general statement, not a statement of what he actually did on this occasion.

yes. that should be the attitude

Bob C.