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Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

Look at what I wrote Dave, I was questioning if the MTH one would be true scale sized.  The Williams one is supposed to be scale sized.

You are correct.....my Dyslexia often swaps words on me.

On a side note.....I'm not sure we will see any 100% new tooling from WbB or MTH in the traditional size market. Even I am only buying scale models on the used and new market. Seems we are speeding toward a scale market as far as new tooling goes. Traditional models will be reissues IMHO.

At YORK, as well as in the WBB flyer, it is said the 44-ton switcher will navigate 027 curves. But having carefully studied the YORK video, as well as the pre-production photos, I seriously wonder if the coupler opening is wide enough to allow 027 operation without derailing the first train car being pulled.... for that matter even 031 curves.

 

Again, I don't have the prototype, so I don't know. I'm only going on experience with other models, my own scrathbuilding, and based upon the photos of their pre-production unit.

 

Reminds me of the initial BEEP which suffered from the same issue until RMT enlarged the opening for the coupler. I wrote to Williams and on May 12 received the following:

 

"The Program manager for that project is currently out of the office. When he gets back we will ask him. He usually takes all 0-27 issues into account when doing the design work."

 

That was May 12. Maybe he's not out of the office, but out of the country. But obviously it's not even known for sure the loco will operate without this glich on 027 curves by folks at Williams, otherwise they would have said so. At any rate, I wouldn't consider even pre-ordering one until hearing from Williams.

Working in the development side of a different hobby manufacture.....We take all input offered while in development.  But depending on what it is we may only be able to take it into consideration but not reply in any form.

It's not happened to us....but there is a story about one company, after taking some advise offered by a customer, was sued by the customer for using his input but he not being compensated!!! So it's best to take the info...but not always good to acknowledge it in any way.  I'll bet that Bachmann, with engineering in all scales from N to G will get it right......and that their development guy is as busy as our guy....which means doing the work of 2-3 folks!

I want mine in PRR 9331, so I can have her shoving Thomas the Tank engine onto the Luria Bros. scrap truck at Strasburg a couple years back at York time. Thomas was even covered with an execution style black face shroud. Kinda morbid, but I was also waiting for the Engineer to get out some yellow paint and put a Thomas "kill sticker" below the number on the 44 tonner's cab side !  Diesel's last conquest, eh !

Originally Posted by Chris Lonero:
Originally Posted by bluelinec4:
Originally Posted by Ted Hikel:

I'm holding out for MTH to produce one, hopefully with DCS

 

MTH announced at York that a 44 tonner with Proto 3 will be in the next catalog. 

They have been saying this for 3 years   Wish WBB would do an undecorated in the meantime   There are thousands of road name possibilities with the 44 tonner

I agree; MTH has been talking about one but that of course would require new tooling. I'm not holding my breath. I would like to see an undecorated version too but I'm not complaining it's nice to see a 3 rail scale one in the pipe line!

Seems to me that the MTH "announcement" at York was an off-the-cuff comment and not a specific statement of fact.  We'll see.........

I've not been in O that long, however I always thought a 44 ton loco smaller then the current WBB would be cool.  I pre-ordered a SF from Nassau within a week of the announcement.

I would have prefered a blue & yellow scheme, as I really miss it.  I live about 100 yards north of the BNSF transcon.  (Separated by a 2 story burm & sound wall).  Only thing I miss more then blue/yellow or silver/red, is a lack of graffiti.

Last edited by tunelvr7
Originally Posted by AMCDave:

Working in the development side of a different hobby manufacture.....We take all input offered while in development.  But depending on what it is we may only be able to take it into consideration but not reply in any form.

It's not happened to us....but there is a story about one company, after taking some advise offered by a customer, was sued by the customer for using his input but he not being compensated!!! So it's best to take the info...but not always good to acknowledge it in any way.  I'll bet that Bachmann, with engineering in all scales from N to G will get it right......and that their development guy is as busy as our guy....which means doing the work of 2-3 folks!

For future possibilities from WBB, look to Bachman's HO and N offerings.  I wouldn't be suprised if a 70 tonner comes out in the next several years.

Rusty

Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:
For future possibilities from WBB, look to Bachman's HO and N offerings.  I wouldn't be suprised if a 70 tonner comes out in the next several years.

Rusty

In a different thread we were talking about new O 3R items. I hoped that WbB would do a scale 4-4-0.......And the fact that they make one in N, HO, On30 and G......it may happen!

Originally Posted by Super7:
The painting of this nice model of a G.E. "44 tonner" above is (to me irritatingly) incorrectly rendered, as the maroon paint of the sides as well as the cab actually terminated below the silver top belt line on these five as delivered GE units. 

 

I went through much personal grief to uncover a single surviving 35mm Kodachrome slide taken in June of 1946 of one of these 5 units in the as-delivered by G.E. "Mountaineer" NYO&W scheme of "Ontario Maroon and Silver Enamel."  My motive for doing so was to correctly record and perpetuate the image of the real article for the historic record for use in a (reference) book on this railroad. As a result of those efforts,  the very engine pictured in the June '46 slide, which to this day still exists, was repainted identically as seen in that almost 70 year old color photograph.

 historic record, unfortunately often results in badly distorting reality. 

 

Thank you.

You are right, the photograph you posted above is different than my custom painted model.

 

Looking at pages 37 and 38 in "New York Ontario & Western In The Diesel Age" by Robert Mohowski, the photographs appear to look more like the model I have whereas the black paint did not touch the top silver stripe on #101, 102 and 103.

 

In the same book, it actually states the maroon "...which extended slightly above a two inch wide horizontal silver stripe that passed just below the cab windows and wrapped around the entire unit."

 

The black and white photograph of the locomotive number 104 on page 41 doesn't show the paint scheme to be exactly like the 101, 102 and 103, and so I believe your research to be correct also.

 

Is it possible there was a variation in paint schemes because all five units were not painted and delivered the same exact time?

 

Black and white photographs don't show shades of color, but in my opinion the photographs in this book clearly show a difference of shade with a border line like my Rich Yoder model.

 

Interesting!  Thanks for sharing your information!

I am sorry but no, the color image I previously supplied was indeed precisely the as delivered scheme used on all of the O&W "44 tonners."  That is prior to the adaptation of the EMD FT's  gray yellow and orange scheme.  The color scheme conversion was already well underway by June 1946 as shown in a side by side, same day comparison in the book, "The New York Ontario & Western in Color." 

 

What is happening here is that you (as well as many others) have understandably misinterpreted the Ortho-Chromatic B&W film image which you have posted one such example above. The sheet metal joint provides a sufficient diverging angle to affect the shades of gray in the image, causing this misinterpretation. BUT, if you remain genuinely honest, very carefully look at your image above and going from left to right on the hoods themselves and above the silver stripe, you will notice there is an inconsistency in those shades of gray.  Some areas clearly showing it is in reality a uniform hue from the silver stripe all the way up to and over the top!  The black and maroon in some areas being completely indistinguishable from each other.

 

Long obsolete, Ortho-Chromnatic B&W film, renders reds and oranges as virtually black and on the opposite side of the color wheel, blues to turquoise green as almost white. It is a real problem when one approaches the  interpretation of period images without a working knowledge of the film's reactions to this color information. 

 

This maroon/black "Ortrho-Chromatic B&W to color" interpretation problem is especially true when attempting to interpret the O&W's #405 "Mountaineer" locomotive.  When seen from only Ortrho-Chromatic B&W images, (as painted from May 1938 until November 1941) it is simply impossible to know "what color went where."  I found this to be so confusing after the 1970 publication of "To The Mountains By Rail" which featured a color painting of the 405 as the "Mountaineer" on it's cover, that in 1975 I spoke with the late Manville B. Wakefield on his interpretations of this locomotive's color scheme.  He admitted to me he'd never seen the locomotive in the maroon orange and black scheme and that his paintings were based entirely on the description published in a 1938 issue of Railway Age magazine.  After many years of searching, I managed to turn up several color slides, from previously unknown photographers. These indicated the engine and the entire train for that matter was painted far differently from what anyone who'd never seen it in person and only in period B&W photos had imagined.  

 

NYO&W #104 as photographed on June 16th, 1946 on 35mm Kodachrome 1 by my good friend, the late John M. Prophet III appears on page 20 of "The New York Ontario & Western in Color" in this, the as-delivered scheme. The simple proof that this was the only scheme prior to the use of the EMD scheme is the weathering of the high quality black enamel paint on the only four year old locomotive.  There would have been no needed repainting in that short a period of time as no accidents requiring a repaint have been recorded. 

 

Perhaps still more significant, this color pattern was a commonly used standard at G.E. and was applied to many differing railroad's 44 tonners and other engines, but using differing colors in the identical manner.  This pattern on 44 tonners is well known and many examples of color photos exist.  There's no reason G.E. would have changed this standardized pattern for just the O&W when it was seen as such in the June '46 color photo.  And frankly, in my and other people's opinion, this erroneous interpretation simply doesn't look as aesthetically pleasing as do the actual color photos of NYO&W #104 demonstrate.

 

Incidentally, this "Ortrho-Chromatic B&W to color" interpretation is a well known phenomena in the study of the First World War's aircraft's color schemes.  There are many rules for the correct interpretation of period B&W images in this field of research based on many years of experience comparing surviving fabric sample and even the handful of actual, period color photos taken during the "Great War" to those Ortho-Chromatic B&W prints of these same subjects.

 

Now, there are even off-the-shelf computer programs available to simulate the color absorption curves of Ortho-Chromatic film for digital imaging so as to impart a period feel to B&W.  It is even reasonably well simulated using an extremely deep blue filter with contemporary Panchromatic B&W film. 

 

If needed, I'd be happy to demonstrate these odd color-absorption curves of "Ortrho-Chromatic B&W" film using as an example, the restored replica WWI Nieuport 11 fighter done by the San Diego Air & Space Museum several years ago.  This as I do have a beautiful Lumiere Brothers; "Autochrome," an actual period color photo taken in April 1916 of one such camouflaged Nieuport 11 aircraft. The comparison with the simulated Ortho-Chromatic B&W, Panchromatic B&W, along with contemporary full color photography and the 1916 vintage Autochrome is most startling!  Trust me, I am familiar with this subject.  

 

Panchromatic B&W film replaced Ortho-Chromatic B&W shortly after WWII for this very reason; accuracy as to a given object's appearance to the human eye's interpretation, that is in terms of light and dark values, all in a black and white image.

 

I hope this helps.  Thanks.  P.

 

Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:
The sound board isn't going to work for command operation.  You need a sound board that listens to the serial command stream for TMCC control.

 

Perhaps.  I need to talk with the ERR folks.  Their DC commander supposedly can control a conventional horn/whistle.  From their description:

- Horn pulse output controls modern-era and post-war horns / whistles

 

 

It has a single 5V DC logic output that is triggered with the horn.  If you can figure out a way to trigger the horn from that signal, it'll work.  They have instructions for a couple of the Lionel boards, but you're on your own with the Williams board.

 

A problem with the Williams board, even if you get the horn working, is the prime mover sounds will run at full throttle, since it'll see full track voltage.

Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

It has a single 5V DC logic output that is triggered with the horn.  If you can figure out a way to trigger the horn from that signal, it'll work.  They have instructions for a couple of the Lionel boards, but you're on your own with the Williams board.

 

A problem with the Williams board, even if you get the horn working, is the prime mover sounds will run at full throttle, since it'll see full track voltage.

I would think you could remove the williams board from the direct track power, and route the ERR board's motor +/- to the williams board to get the prime mover to react based on voltage sent to the motors.  But I'm just guessing.  I tried to find any schematics or diagrams showing the williams board, but no luck...

 

Perhaps I'll just get the ERR mini commander and the ERR sound board and be done with it!   Or maybe no sound.  I have time to ponder though, since the engine isn't available until December at best...

 

Anyway, thanks for the info! 

Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

From what I've heard, the motors are truck mounted in the Williams, so no need to pull boards.  I think it's not going to be an issue.  You can surely fit the MiniCommander 2 and RailSounds Commander into it.

 

I wonder hat engine sounds on the RailSounds Commander would be closest to the 44?  It supports:

 

Diesel: Alco PA/PB, Alco 420, F3/F7, E8/9, GP7/9, Dash 9, FM, SD

 

Originally Posted by David Minarik:
Originally Posted by Wurlitzer:

I'll take a couple more NYO&W in different numbers.  I wouldn't mind a gray and yellow one too.  This is my Rich Yoder model with TMCC.   I enjoy running it on the club layout.

 

IMG_3234

Did you paint this?  If so, you did a fantastic job!

 

Dave

Thank you Dave, but no I didn't paint it.  It is a RY model and Rich had someone he knows custom paint two of them, 101 and 105.  I really like these and wouldn't change a thing about them....except I wish they had sound!

I truly don't understand why you wouldn't fix the paint so it correctly matches the real engines. 

 

The O&W historical society acknowledges the solid black above the belt line as the original paint scheme for all 5 of these engines. The water color painting on the cover of the "O&W in the Diesel Age" was done prior to the discovering of color photo of these in the maroon/silver scheme and was a "best guess" approach.  There is no other depiction of the O&W 44 tonners in this manner of painting.

 

If you own an airbrush, it's at most only a 15-20 minute job with the use of a thin cardboard mask.  Then another application of silver decal stripe, clear coat and you're done. 

 

To my mind, these are supposed to look as close as possible to something that actually existed.  Isn't that a major part of the excuse for having these toys? A "Scale Model" isn't really a toy (ahem.)

 

That said, there's absolutely no question that the silver belt was the dividing border for the maroon and black:

 

 

ABOVE:  Is the black on top with the maroon below or is it the maroon on top with the black below?????

 

I ordered mine this past May as soon as Micro-Mark started to advertize them.  I ordered the D&RGW.  It's going to be stripped and become Erie #26.  This is the only 44 ton engine the Erie owned purchased in September 1946.  It became part of the Erie Lackawanna system in October 1960 and was retired at the end of 1965 based on all the information I could find on it.

I have heard MTH is supposed to be issuing one in the next catalog.  One thing for sure is all new tooling will be required, something MTH has been reserving for their HO and European line up.  Based on dimensions of the 44 ton engine, MTH may have to redesign the motor trucks as I believe the existing can motors he uses will be too tall to fit into the shell.  Time will tell and I'm not going to hold my breath.  Remember the start to finish time on the Mel's Diner project?

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