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I am sad when I hear all the dire predictions about the future of York. Let’s be constructive. What can all of us do to promote York? I was able to stay till Saturday (I usually do that in the Spring) and I went to the Eastern Division business meeting. The Eastern Division leadership is aware of the issues  and I’m sure they would like to hear about good ideas to promote the show. Money is always a problem....which is no surprise.....heck, when was the last time you got a break at the grocery store?

Let’s have constructive ideas.......what would you do to promote York?

If you were the Easter Division?

If you were national TCA?

If you were one of the other train clubs? LCCA, LOTS, TTOS, etc?

If you were a major manufacturer?

If you were a small “cottage” manufacturer?

If you were a big vendor?

If you were a small vendor?

For TCA members....if you are a young member (under 40), middle age (40-65), or one in retirement men years (65+)?

Or for any other category I missed....

REMEMBER.....the Pennsylvania State Tax is NOT going away, so you have to preserve the MEET STATUS for member to member meet transactions.

I am not an MBA and those of you with business, advertising and financial backgrounds, your advice is welcome because you know the reality of what is possible.

Let’s be constructive and positive. Maybe there are things that individuals and local groups of us can do (like our many modular groups). I am interested in hearing everone’s thoughts.

Peter

TCA 83-19115.......missed York twice since my 1st one in April 83......October 85 and October 89.

Last edited by Putnam Division
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They need to hire a sales and marketing trainer / consultant.

TCA Eastern and many of the complaining dealers / manufacturers seem to be missing the basics of retail business. There are great examples in the retail world, WalMart, Starbucks, McDonalds, etc. Try to apply some learning from them. It's little things and great customer service that make the difference, not complaining about members within earshot.

George

I think it would be beneficial for someone to write up a publishable article about the hobbies of toy train collecting and model railroading that includes a show announcement in the very beginning. A bit on the TCA and the nation museum probably would be in order. Then send it to every newspaper (including local weeklies and such), radio station, and television station within the target area for public attendance.
Some will put the show on their "things to do" calendar.
Some might tweak the article and run it.

When I was handling the advertising for a local show, I had some success doing this.

I understand that one of the fellows who have been promoting one of our local shows was interviewed by our local cable TV news station, and the spot was run multiple times before the show. How do you suppose the station learned of the show? 
Attendance was certainly good.

Last edited by C W Burfle

While not my idea, one idea with regards to advertising is that the EDTCA could do a run of T-shirts promoting the York Meet and sell them at just a little over cost, and maybe even give them to new members who sign up at the meet.  If they come up with an eye-catching design that is printed on vibrant bright red or blue T-shirts (NOT white, black or gray - bright color attracts much more attention), people who wear them will be walking billboards (and essentially free advertising), and since people like to wear such shirts to train shows (and I would also wear it in public), it would get the word out to the train fanatics who have yet to learn about York by word-of-mouth.  It would have to have a short message that can be delivered quickly, like "World's Biggest Train Meet - York, PA!  Eastern Division TCA"

Andy

Peter, Thanks for posting and great seeing you this weekend. I've been going to York for just over 20 years and enjoyed my trips. I do attend with a wish list and amazingly over the years I have about a 95% rate in finding what I want.  From an attendees, my perspective my list includes purchases as well meeting people (as I introduced myself to you ) and having a good time.  York is part of my annual vacation budget.

1. Here are a few of my suggestions:Revert back to two days. Conduct the show on Friday and Saturday. Friday have the dealer halls open from 9am to 7pm and Saturday 9am to 5pm. The member halls should stay open Friday 9am to 5pm and Saturday 9am to 3pm, giving the member sellers time to check out dealer halls.

2.  Allow non TCA members access to the FULL show. Our members are there to SELL!!! and the current policy steers non members away from there tables. We have TCA members attend other meets to sell as I have done. My concern when I am selling is to get as many people as possible to pass my table. One consideration would be to raise the non member admission to $25 for full access.

Just my thoughts.

Steve

 

 

L.I.TRAIN posted:
...........

2.  Allow non TCA members access to the FULL show. Our members are there to SELL!!! and the current policy steers non members away from there tables. We have TCA members attend other meets to sell as I have done. My concern when I am selling is to get as many people as possible to pass my table. One consideration would be to raise the non member admission to $25 for full access.

............

That is the tax issue from the other side of the table.  Members do not all wish to obtain PA tax numbers to sell to the general public.  The member to member model avoids that problem.

I will never have a table at a meet again if I need to obtain a PA tax number to sell probably less than a few hundred bucks worth of items once or twice a year. (and sometimes much less than that - I'm not a big seller).  I suspect I am not alone (may not be the majority, but I'm sure I'm not the only one).  It is not worth the paperwork hassle for me to do so.  Even if you stop selling, you could need to file paperwork to formally claim you did not sell for eternity.  A Forum member who sold in the Orange hall for several meets years ago has previously described how he still needs to file with the state of PA after each meet even though he hasn't sold for quite a few years now.

{edit: to be fair, if a survey would not be a huge undertaking (it wouldn't be free, but I don't know how hard it would be), the ED could ask all member table holders from the previous meet their though on the matter.  If 95% say they would still have a table even if they had to obtain a tax # to sell, maybe it is a good way to go.  I can't see how they would gauge any additional table holders that may decide to get a table if the public was admitted rather than just members.  But once that act takes place, it sounds like it's irreversible, so it's not something that can be "experimented" with to see how it goes.)}

-Dave

PS. Peter, Sorry I didn't have a new suggestion for your thread at this point, but wanted to point that out, even though it's been covered many times in the past.

Last edited by Dave45681

I will never have a table at a meet again if I need to obtain a PA tax number to sell probably less than a few hundred bucks worth of items once or twice a year. (and sometimes much less than that - I'm not a big seller).  I suspect I am not alone (may not be the majority, but I'm sure I'm not the only one).  It is not worth the paperwork hassle for me to do so.  Even if you stop selling, you could need to file paperwork to formally claim you did not sell for eternity.  A Forum member who sold in the Orange hall for several meets years ago has previously described how he still needs to file with the state of PA after each meet even though he hasn't sold for quite a few years now.

I imagine that that Orange Hall fellow decided to keep his tax number in case he wants to do York again.
Here in NYS, it is very easy to surrender your tax number.
I've been thinking about doing so and giving up train shows altogether.

I think we are all whistling past the graveyard. The hobby's demographics will dictate its fate. Here in Chicago our monthly show used to be dominated by three rail dealers. No longer. There are only two vendors who show Lionel , Atlas, and MTH. No one has Ross, Gargraves or Atlas track. The majority of the vendors offer HO, old but new MTH and Lionel rolling stock and accessories, and toys, tools, and tables of old American Flyer. The best selling items are older locomotives by MTH and Lionel as well as Woodlands Senics buildings. Only one dealer offers new (recent) Lionel and MTH. Attracting new folks into the hobby is challenging. Kids today are dedicated to their phones and video games. Few would care to learn the skills necessary to construct a layout. The declining attendance at York simply mirrors the interest in 3 rail trains nationally. 

Great topic Peter and probably impossible to answer.

1. TCA doesn't seem to have any significant reason to promote York. It is an Eastern District meet. I suspect a whole lot of us aren't in the ED although we need to be in TCA to attend.

2. TCA and ED need to promote a "buy it at York" mentality. Give away something. Do something. I don't know what. Get certain dealers to buy into it with specials instead of just visit my booth. Get us to physically buy at York rather than otherwise.

3. Why the noon start on Thursday? You killed the bandit shows (yes, the internet and buyer demographics helped). But the extra day makes it more expensive for vendors.

4. Stop selling on Thursday and provide us with something else. Scenery seminars, the DCS meeting, wiring Ross switches, using the Atlas signal system, Legacy issues, etc. The ones that are done now, are done at "odd" hours (although I like the timing of them).

5. IMO, narrow aisles and electric carts make several Halls very difficult to navigate. I like to go through the Halls with older trains fairly quickly. Very difficult to do that. Maybe you don't want to change, but you surely never ask.

6. Lastly, make us all younger.

Gerry

 

Thanks for starting the thread in a thoughtful manner.

I'm not sure how the tax issue can be communicated more clearly, but it IS an issue, and opening the entire meet to the public is a non-starter.  (Covered very well by Dave45861's post above).

Since we can now buy trains anywhere and anytime, York should concentrate on what makes it unique, which is that it's a gathering of people.  Also, we need to realize that many members have transitioned from acquisition mode to building and operating.  So, I'd like to see more focus on meetings, seminars, and demonstrations.  Publicize them well, and hold them in convenient and visible locations during meet hours.  Now that the brown hall is no longer used as vendor space, perhaps this would be a good venue. 

And most of all, I'd like to see the establishment of a York meet "street team" to walk through the halls and perform the following tasks:  1) wake up the sleeping vendors, 2) provide basic customer-service training, and 3) hand out "your items are ridiculously overpriced" tickets to certain members.

 "1964, the last year of the baby boom, there were nearly 72.5 million baby boomers. The population, (of the boomers), peaked in 1999, with 78.8 million baby boomers, including people who immigrated to the United States and were born between 1946 and 1964".   

The bulk of this age group quickly approaches retirement, myself, (69).  You begin to consider day to day expense going forward.  Demographic groups, before and after this group, are smaller, and with much different interest. 

Cost (for this group) continue to increase, medical care a huge part of one's life from here out. 

A sobering experience was helping remove another Fort Pitt Highrailers train collection to a local auction house, Pittsburgh area, after his death.  

Trains/model trains are/were nice.  Those, who make a living selling this stuff, would eventually have to consider their market group and how it is changing. 

I walked the halls a few years ago, enjoyed the vacation, nostalgia, and chatting with friends, can't say I put much money in anyone's pocket, which should be another concern of the Eastern TCA, not just the attendance numbers. 

Helping display the Fort Pitt Highrailer's layout, was probably the peak of my York Train Show experiences. 

  IMO  Michael C. Thompson.   

 

Last edited by Mike CT
L.I.TRAIN posted:

Dave thanks for the sales tax update, 

One other thing to help improve York, Walking the aisles on the member halls there were lots of tables throughout the day covered with blankets, We the attendees pay to get in and would like to see their offerings. These guys should be addressed by the hall captains.

The covered tables we will agree on. 

But the days of there being competition for table spaces are obviously over, so as long as sellers don't end up regularly screwing people over, their table spots are probably safe if they either don't arrive soon enough to be there at meet open to uncover, cover early to get a jump on the dinner rush on Thursday or Friday, or pack up out of frustration and leave early.

When you all figure it out, maybe you can help Toys R Us, Sears, Radio Shack, Circuit City, Best Buy and every other business down sizing or shutting down due to modern day technology and online shopping. 

It's not going to last forever, and every year theres fewer and fewer of those same people that have been going year after year. We went twice, but wouldnt spend the money and take time off of work to go again. Been there done that. There's other things to check off the bucket list.

If you live back there great! Theres is nothing that they can do to market or promote the show that will get more and more people to take time off work to travel to York for a train show. Those days are long gone!

As a small vendor and a somewhat newer attendee (my 5th as a York vendor) I find that the lack of attendance on Saturday makes no sense for me financially to be there. Here's my few cents:

1. The TCA has had a "members only" event for so long that the general public has a general disregard for the fact that the dealer halls are actually available on Friday and Saturday. An event of this size, with the quality and diversity of vendors that are present, should be packed on Saturday.

2. The event MUST attract a younger audience. To do that I believe that you need more than just dealer tables in every hall. There should be at least one large operating layout inside the Orange Hall. There was one in the Orange Hall hallway this week and there is room for another. Those clubs who bring in their layouts need to be incentivized with a payment for consideration of their expenses.

3. Having just gone to the Amherst Railroad Club's show in January, the dynamic and energy compared with York is entirely different in my opinion. World's Greatest Hobby shows draw thousands, including families. The TCA York show is supposed to be legendary, but I believe that it has drawn less each of the past five trips that I have made. The TCA board needs to study other models that work and apply what they can while maintaining the member swap status.

4. The event only needs to be two days. I would suggest Friday and Saturday. As a small business vendor, my daily costs include overnight accommodations ($65.00), food ($40.00), van rental ($65.00) and sundry expenses ($25.00). I know that others spend more and have more than a staff of one. On Saturday I sold $16.00 worth of goods. Although I did meet several new potential customers, virtually no inventory left my table. That business model is not sustainable.

5. Do not spend the money on a consultant. Call the Amherst Model Railroad Club and arrange a weekend trip by a few board members to go to Springfield and pick their brains on how their show works. Concentrate on acquiring the next generation of enthusiasts and members as they will be the ones to maintain the value of past collections. 

6. Pay for advertising in OGR, Classic Toy Trains and The O Scale Resource magazines starting NOW for October. Print deadlines for mid-summer are most likely upon us or past.

7. Offer door prizes to non-TCA member attendees for Saturday and advertise the vendors who donate to the cause. I would gladly donate a door prize.

8. And one last nit that bothers me to no end: do not turn off the lights when there are still people in the hall, especially when it is 15 minutes before "closing" time. I work long and hard to prepare, set up and work any trade show. I do not appreciate someone turning of the lights on part of my time to sell and to me is sends the wrong message to attendees.

 

 A read a lot of comparisons made to the Springfield Big E show and how that has grown. I've attended that show for the last 25 years. Fall York for the last 8.  York seemed to decline a little each year as far as vendors. The Big E is very diverse. Covers many scales as well as real trains. I do see a few more younger people. The majority though. Is still an older crowd.

 One reason the Big E I believe has grown. Is it's location. A long for some. But a doable drive for most in the northeast. The other is the time of year it takes place. The holidays have passed. It's the off week for pro football. You have 2 weekend days to choose from. Nobody in the northeast is doing yard work or any activities outside. As long as the weather is decent as far as no snow in sight. People are just itching to get out of the house and do something. If your hobby is trains. This is the place to be.  As many have mentioned on this Forum. Most work heavily on the layout in the winter months. The Springfield show is just the ticket to pick up everything you need to finish up or start on a new project.

 I use York as a vacation. My wife likes the outlets and the Amish country. I realize for many. Taking a week off to attend a train show isn't an option. Maybe a Sat. , Sun. Format would be better for attendance.

Train Collectors Association. Key word is Collectors. The "younger" generations don't collect like we old farts used to collect...Need every item in every color. Factory mistake? GREAT!. Don't mind a bit of rust because I'll find a better one later. Look at all the full shelves in my train room! 

And this goes for ALL collectibles, not just trains. How do many "collect" today? They buy a small number of what they love (pre-war trains, vintage cameras, cap guns, etc)...EXCEPT, each one has to be in mint condition, for a display in the living room. This info is from 75 year-old Harry Rinker, expert on the collectibles market who has his own radio call-in show, and writer of antique magazine articles.

But you say, "Oh, but we just want to get more people interested in playing with trains". Good luck with that one.

I restarted, ran and grew the Somerset 4-H Trainmasters from six original members to a club that has close to thirty 10 to 16 year old members. Don’t lose sight of the fact that you are working to plant the seed of a lifetime of interest. That lifetime of interest for any hobby may not be continuous. There may be schooling, family raising, and personal preferences and obligations that sidetrack any hobby for a period of time. But if you don’t offer the initional introduction, the likelyhood of creating awareness fades. Old Farts have a lifetime of experience with trains. It would be a shame if they take it to the grave without introducing another generation to the who, what, why, where and when of a facsinating hobby.

I would like to chime in being a young parent and train guy. I'm 40 with young kids and I dropped my TCA membership after 16 years. Myself and 2 other guys, same age used to go to York. When we brought our kids we felt that we made people nervous, unwelcome and a bother to some sellers. So we left! The rules are terrible for todays society. Also we cant go on a Thursday and Friday due to work, school, sports etc..I had 4 lacrosse games this weekend. It should be Sunday for the young dads. Plus York, is just boring, sorry! Tables of overpriced postwar trains and big dealers who are just grumpy. Also, to many scooters!! We go to the Big E and that is great, tons of layouts, demonstrations and my kids come home with a ton of free stuff. Now, I live in NY so I'm close to come on Saturday and Sunday.

A big factor is, that other than my train friends (5), people my age do not collect anything at all. My wife and her friends collect nothing, belong to nothing and are just into work and kids sports. That's the way it is now, like it or not.

Maybe the solution is for York to become just another local TCA meet. It could be they are a victim of their own success. All the big vendors could stay home and  operate their stores that weekend.

Everyone in the local EDTCA and local public could attend just like a local meet. The only reason we are having this discussion is that the York meet became bigger than I suspect they ever intended. 

Personally I still appreciate the effort put forth by the EDTCA but maybe they’ll start to feel all the complaining may not be worth the effort to have it that big. 

Another point, what other TCA chapters put on or try to put on a meet this big, make arrangements with the state government, and put up with this twice a year?

Last edited by MartyE
marty track posted:

Pictures!

Yes, post pictures everywhere on the internet and advertise with pictures in the hobby magazines, especially CTT and OGR.  Although its not as great as it used to be, it's still the best meet for 3-rail O gauge and 2-rail S gauge in the country but the word has to get out to those new to the hobby.  Not only was there no ad but there wasn't even an announcement in the "Events" column of the May 2018 issue of CTT which came out in late March.  Subscribers and other readers of that magazine and OGR are certainly the target audience for York.  Perhaps someone could write an article about York with photos to run in either CTT or OGR. 

Bill 

 

 

Last edited by WftTrains
Joe Hohmann posted:

Train Collectors Association. Key word is Collectors. The "younger" generations don't collect like we old farts used to collect...Need every item in every color. Factory mistake? GREAT!. Don't mind a bit of rust because I'll find a better one later. Look at all the full shelves in my train room!

You Are absolutely correct on that point. It's really kind of a shame, but younger generations, at least to this point, do not show much of an interest in collecting things. That may change at some point, but there sure are no guarantees.

Fortunately, increasing attention these days is given to operating the trains. Trains that are running on nicely constructed layouts are the best lures that we have in this hobby. Few, if any, hobbies offer such a great opportunity to display such a diverse range of skills and talents.

eddie g posted:

I believe that most or all the people that read OGR & CTT know about York.

I agree.  I've only been involved in this hobby for six months.  In that time, I've subscribed to OGR forum & magazine (and CTT), I've bought a handful of books about O and Standard Gauge, I joined the local Lionel club, and I've bought trains from a local OGR member.  Everyone of those sources mentioned York.  I had never heard of York before last December.  It's impossible to be involved in this hobby for a week without hearing about York.  

eddie g posted:

Superwarp, i don't agree with you that it is dying. maybe you need to go back to York. All that has been eliminated  is the brown & gold halls.

Plus the Green Hall.

 

Brown hall, poor lighting, never got anything there.

Gold hall, small, few tables of trains. Got 1 item since 1977.

Green hall, other than the worlds shortest railroad powered by a broomstick, nothing.

No loss.

GHD posted:

At the risk of opening Pandora’s box here, if the manufacturers are upset, why aren’t they allowed to sell their products?

Most manufacturers do their best to partner with their dealer network, not be a competitor to them. Dealers, of course, compete among themselves, but if/when manufacturers sell product direct to consumer, it usually is for list price.

Peter;

First, thanks for starting this thread - I can hear Bing Crosby singing in the background...

You got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mister In-between

You got to spread joy up to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium
Liable to walk upon the scene

 

So, for what it’s worth, here are my thoughts. For starters, let me say I am not like a lot of the folks here who’ve gone to more Yorks than years I’ve been on this earth (63 years)   I came to York rather late in life and have only been to three. I am also the poster child for the lone wolves, so the social aspect (which some applaud and other decry) isn’t a draw for me. I also, due to two VERY bad knees, have only gone for three or so hours on Thursday. And here is the killer - I have spent a good bit of money at York, but I have never bought a single train car. I have found York to be an invaluable source of “scenicing” supplies such as buildings, ballast, and such. I would greatly miss York if it were to go away. That being said, here are some possible suggestions for outreach to the local/general public:

  • There is a group, I believe in the DC area (and several members post here, but I can’t remeber their name - please forgive my forgetfulness) who do some amazing outreach to their local community. Every year, they seem to hit a veteran’s center and grade school. What if the ED scheduled a visit for some veteran’s group(s) to at least see the layouts on display. In addition to the good will that such a visit would generate, you couldn’t pay for that kind of publicity - the local media would eat it up, and the vets would probably love it even more.
  • a similar effort to reach out to some local schools might also be advantageous, especially if a layout or some sort of demonstration could be arranged with WiFi or Bluetooth control to draw in the smartphone obsessed crowd!!!
  • I am constantly amazed at the talent of the collective group on this Forum when it comes to servicing/upgrading equipment. As an admitted techno-peasant, I would love if the ED could set up some seminars to go over basic, intermediate, and advanced servicing. It would require a separate room, some audio-visual wizardry, and an engaging presenter, but it would be interesting IMHO.
  • and while we are talking about seminars, how about one on scenic techniques... I know Scenic Express does some on the aisle by their booth, but I think it wold go over better in a quieter, more controlled setting
  • there are home shows in my area (NE Pennsylvania) where they have a “collector inspector” who will do appraisals of antiques... how about a group of knowledgeable TCA members who would be willing to evaluate those old trains people tend to have laying around.
  • I would hope the ED has done this, but have they tried to engage with local train clubs to encourage their attendance/participation???

 

That’s my two cents worth, and I’ll understand if you want change   

Allan, I know you said most, but when Lionel sells product to the big boys that sell it for less than my local hobby shop can buy it, maybe it’s time to rethink things. I can’t help but wonder if that policy led to Lionel being swamped with repairs such that they would only do warranty repairs. Perhaps some people will pay list price to get a product. My local shop has a sign that reads “ The best time to buy a train is when you see it “. I’m glad to see what I consider to be good pricing for starter sets and there’s good variety.

beachhead2 posted:

I'm ignorant regarding the history of the York location so maybe it's sacrosanct.  But Delaware is less than 75 miles away and I believe they have no sales tax.  If the state of Pennsylvania wants to be a PITA, then there's a nearby option.

York is a holy site, originally settled by the Romans, and later taken by the Vikings, so we must revere it.  Oh wait, that's the other York.  

Seriously, Delaware is a fair outside-the-box suggestion.  However, for folks coming from the west, Delaware adds 150 miles to the round trip, which would cut it down to no more than once a year for me (and I suspect others too).  Also, the York area has a lot of other attractions that bring people in.  Would people come to a different location?  

One thing that needs to change to promote York is the people who enforce the rules need to lighten-up and remember that without both table-holders and non-table-holders, a train meet would not exist. I was lambasted by a meet official during the Thursday morning set-up hours.  On the final trip from my car to the hall, instead of walking directly back to my table, I took the long way and went down an aisle other than the one where my table was located so I could see what those members had for sale. I had no intention of buying anything as the meet wasn't open yet, and was just looking. This official was beyond rude, and for what? Looking at trains for sale? I had just about decided not to return in October, but the official did the right thing, and came to my table and apologized. A little courtesy and decency would go a long way toward promoting York as an enjoyable event. 

John

Just got back from York. 5 th visit and here is my take:

1) You have to advertise! No signs anywhere?

2) Reach out to the Manufactures and throw them a bone to show up, demonstrate, and give them the room to sell their stock

3) the Members isle is a disaster. set tables up so the venders sit on the inside of the row of tables. use additional halls if need be. but get the people flowing in and out! I cannot tell you how many times I could not get through due to carts or venders rearranging their display, or just talking rude people.

4) Improve the food! Host a pancake breakfast THURSDAY am before the 12 pm start. Have a raffle too.

5) Educate people on the prewar, postwar, MPC, Modern era products with a video presentation they can attend.

6) Sell tickets to a one off or ten off collectable car... with signatures, or just a I love York on it...

7) Announce new products to come see before the show and where on the hall map to see them

8) How about a live steam train ride for the adults/kids in 1:8 scale. There are clubs that could set up and travel for the weekend

9) You have to set up communication with other running railroads in the area to set up special runs. Did anyone know by chance the Everett Railroad ran a 3 hour special run on Saturday? I bet nobody knew. Did the Strasburg run any photo run by for  the fans?

10) Issue maps for the local must see hobby shops in the area

11) stop the early covering of tables before the show ends

This is only a start. I have many more ideas...

 

 

 

 

I've been following this thread, I guess its time that I offer up some proposals.

The T-shirt giveaway that was suggested earlier is a good one. If you sign up for running races you get a t-shirt. Guess what people do with those shirts? They go running in them, they see other runners who see the shirt and go home and google the race. I don't know how many races I've found because I saw someone wearing a shirt of a race that sounded good. Give away a couple thousand shirts (first XXX to get to the Silver Hall at noon or whatever). Sure, some of them will end up as track cleaning rags, but at least a few are bound to end up being worn to another train related venue where someone who doesn't know will see it.

Clubs that do layouts at York should be given an official York boxcar. Same reason as above. Those cars resurface elsewhere with visibility to the desired audience. 

Send posters to all of the registered dealers 2 months prior to the show. Surely their customers will want to know about it if they don't already. 

Set up a clinic room, offer vendors something to put on a clinic, maybe even charge to attend it. As mentioned, some people do it in the booth, but what if it were offered as a hands on? It could get people to spend some more money in the booths if they learn how to do something they were otherwise hesitant to mess around with. Some examples:

Scenery 101 - give everyone a 1x1 foam square and some materials to follow along with the demo

Scenery 201 - maybe introduce things like static grass, water, etc..

Weathering 101 - comb the halls, find a $10 boxcar and bring it along, weathering supplies provided to follow along

Painting mass production plastic buildings for realism 101

Locomotive service essentials - bring a loco, here's the grease, oil and knowhow

I realize there's interest groups and things that meet now (LUG, DCS group, Greenberg's group, etc...) but maybe adding workshops is worthwhile.

 

Hello Friends

I wanted to add my two cents. I am in my late fifties. (Wow, that is hard to read) Getting up there. But if I am paying attention correctly, I am in the younger group of train enthusiasts, and OGR forum members. I could be wrong. That's my impression. I attended the 2018 York show, as a member of TCA. This was my first show. I have to think that I may be in the sweet spot of perspective customers. I am still working and I am in the middle of building a sizable layout. I bought my first conventional engine last August, and acquired a scale Allegheny in January. I have new grand kids and they are my excuse for building the layout. (Threw them right under the bus) 

I arrived in time to go through the show on Thursday. I was impressed with the way the TCA conducted the incoming members and guests. I was able to meet the person in charge of incoming RVs also. Very nice. York was a great social event. I saw everyone I expected to see there, except Woodland Scenic. Scenic Express did have a nice display. I made new friends and learned much about the hobby.  

I believe the single most important challenge the York show and the hobby in general, is the aging population. While it was great to see young people at York, there weren't that many. Unless MTH and Lionel can get more kids into the hobby, it will continue to lose enthusiasts. The Polar Express movie probably extended the life of the hobby. I spoke with a 16yo model train enthusiast, and he is spending much more time playing Dungeons and Dragons. Electronics provides fierce competition for the attention of all of us, and younger folks are already fluent. I feel this problem will only get worse.

I was equally excited and concerned about the satellite shows. I did not go to them, but from a vendor's perspective, the bandit shows, are just that- Bandits. They are diverting dollars and customers from the main event. In our capitalistic economy, it is every seller for themselves. That's the American way. I guess it's incumbent on business owners to protect their market. But you cannot have it both ways. If you want to attend a successful show and see successful vendors, it requires your support in dollars.

A positive result of attending York for me was learning exactly where I want to spend my time and dollars. I have narrowed my interest, and look forward to enjoying my completed layout.

eddie g posted:

jdaddy, where are you going to get all the people to do all the things you are suggesting?

And the money!  Most of those things aren't free.  I can see points in #1, 5, 6, and 11 upon cursory review. 

Unfortunately #11 happens because of the catch 22 of lower attendance leading to table holders bailing early because of the lower attendance and people who do show up seeing the covered tables as a "why bother if the tables will be covered", hence lowering attendance even more.  If there was enough interest that there was a waiting list for tables, it would be realistic to discipline people who leave early as stated in the meet flyer.  Problem is, ther eis no one waiting in the wings to take the table space at this point.

#7 is a point of attracting visitors, i.e., "Come see us at York for new announcements" (don't see how announcing them before could improve attendance?).  

#10 - That is something people who have an interest have done for years, mostly outside of meet hours, I suspect.  The closest store recently closed just a few blocks away on Market Street.

Many of the other things would divert people AWAY from the meet (sorry no one is here on Saturday because they went to Everett Railroad for a 3 hour excursion instead?).  As to a raffle, there is already a door prize done, though I admit I'm not sure I saw the winner lists posted in all the halls like it used to be.  I did check the list when I visited the Silver hall, it was just between the Convention Table and the Registration counters.

There are plenty of events throughout the week, many conflicting with Bandit meets.  I've only visited Bandit meets once or twice in 21 years, but I've been visiting the Museum area and Strasburg RR for probably close to 17 years. 

With respect to Strasburg activities, they run their normal tours, and on Wednesday they ran a special shuttle (train you can't ride on except on Wednesday of York week) on the tracks to get people form the Choo Choo Barn to the Strasburg Station to the Red Caboose Motel (free!).  That was new last October (though not the train they had originally intended in October due to a problem discovered before the event - it was still cool!) and was repeated this meet (I think with the same motive power they had planned last October, bu tI may be mistaken - didn't cross-check th eold meet flyers).  Can't beat that as something new and different to attract people.

 

Last edited by Dave45681

Good replies and yes they are ideas.

You don't make changes w/o making waves.

Eddie you hire them! Or have volunteers like most of the railroad attractions and layouts have. 

And the money ... you raise it.

I can explain more on the above ideas, however it would take a few pages of this forum to fully explain.  Plus bore everyone out of their mind... my point is there are many ways to  get the public there.  And it always will take time and money and a few volunteers.

Our fire department makes money on our Pancake Breakfast so can the TCA

Why doesn't the Strasburg and the surrounding attractions extend hours that week so the public can attend is beyond me.

If you are planning to attend over night like many of us, you tend to plan more than one attraction, so a trip to Everett, or Hershey, or Strasburg is NOT a diversion from the meet, you are actually drawing families in.

I have been there 5 years and have never even heard of the raffle... was it really worth buying tickets for and waiting to see who won? I mean it has to be a prize worth winning. Not just a T shirt. 

 

 

 

J Daddy posted:

I have been there 5 years and have never even heard of the raffle... was it really worth buying tickets for and waiting to see who won? I mean it has to be a prize worth winning. Not just a T shirt. 

 

 

Not a raffle.  A door prize.  You bought your chance by registering in advance, i.e. it's free if you signed up to pay your admission before the early registration deadline. 

The prizes are donated by dealers generally, I believe.  Sometimes it's freight cars, some small artwork, detail items, etc.  It's not Legacy or DCS equipped engines (nor should it be).  I didn't look at what was on the prize table too closely, as I did not win.  There is no waiting, the list is posted from the time the meet opens until the close, and you can stop by and pick up your winnings at any time if you did win.

So yeah, since it's 100% free for anyone who registers in advance, I'd say it's "worth it" no matter what to check to see if you won.

Last edited by Dave45681

Here's an idea I had this morning:  At all train shows and meets I have ever attended, there have been tables with flyers for other train shows and attractions for people to pick up.  If the EDTCA could put together a flyer promoting York (it wouldn't have to be date-specific as long as they have their web site listed for interested people to go to for more info) and make it downloadable from their web site as a PDF, then other nearby TCA chapters and clubs like mine could print them out and put them out on the tables of the shows we attend or sponsor, and train shops that sell at York could post copies at their stores.  Again, it would have to be short and to the point as to what York is and what it has to offer, but it would be very low-cost targeted advertising.  And if it were laid out 4 per page (each page cut into 4 flyers), it would be even more economical.  The only real work the EDTCA would have to do is design the flyer, convert it to a PDF, upload it and let members know where to find it.

Andy

If you look at the York meet it is simple in my mind what is happening.  The collecting segment of the hobby is what has been contracting, just like the meet.  If the Eastern Division continues to ignore the operators with lack of content for the operator, then the meet will continue to contract.  The meet needs seminars, demonstrations and more content from the manufacturers and vendors geared towards the hobbyists that are operating and building layouts.

There should be meeting areas for the manufacturers and vendors to talk about their product and what is new.  Likewise hobbyists that are at the top of their game should be asked to share some of their talents in a talk or demonstration.  All of these could be posted in a schedule so members could attend the topics meaningful to them.

For those that like the meet just like it is, let me say this.  I'd like to see the meet around in another 10 years.  You have to think bigger than yourself.

While the meet was not well attended this April I would simply offer that the registration issues and the crazy weather contributed to attendance also and were both an anomaly.  Yes, attendance is falling and has been for years as the membership declines, but this April was just an unusual combination of events.  April is not as well attended as October to start historically.

With very little physical product to show in the Orange Hall, it was a very productive meet for 3rd Rail whose hat I wear at York in April. 

My suggestion?  More promotion for non-member opportunities to attend.  To generate membership, you have to actively promote anything the public can participate in.  TCA is changing and in many ways for the better.  We need to do a better job to promote that.

I hope this doesn't sound like a rant or a rehash of the same old same old , However I feel I have sit back long enough silent , so its time to put in my two cents worth before fading into the sunset.

I would like to start by saying I did read and I do understand the title of this thread I also know that York is not the only focus of the TCA nor is it its only function. However it seems publicly it is the tail that wags the dog.

For years I watched as TCA business was debated publicly by members and non members alike in this forum as well as others, a lot of it surrounding   a call to meet the demands of the non dues paying public as well as cure the TCAs financial woes and bolster the decreasing membership size by opening the York event to non members and select manufactures.

However it seams all may not be well, and a call for more is herd  , the manufactures want this or they pull out as well as we supported the call from the non dues paying public but alas they want more . Huh imagine that , sounds like another entitlement situation or at least ill take my trains and go home.

Ok I agree as  other people are important and we do need to do what we can to make the hobby grow however , think of this.

For thirty five years plus I was a dues paying member , Yes I had been to York , yes I had other benefits. but when I had trouble with the internet site I called the office for help . I got none , I sent a letter asking for help I got none , nothing not even a return Im sorry. I went to the closest TCA meet and paid my fee for myself and family to attend  and right inside the door was a dealer I personalty know who is not a TCA member with a table of wares to sell , after asking why, I was told it was good for business as there really wasnt enough members to make it worth while.

. So I decided maybe it was time to take a break, instead of paying my dues I wrote a letter that was June 2017 , still no answer, not even a past due notice.

Why say something now you ask ? Well I still miss being a member , of being a part of something I believe in , I miss seeing old friends and just the fun.

Maybe instead of trying to add another room its time to take a look at the foundation and make sure all is well , maybe we should go back and listen to the people paying there dues and not the general public first. but what do I know I still think I may some day get that letter offering help or a past due notice,.  Gary NQDY 

   

MichRR714 posted:

If you look at the York meet it is simple in my mind what is happening.  The collecting segment of the hobby is what has been contracting, just like the meet.  If the Eastern Division continues to ignore the operators with lack of content for the operator, then the meet will continue to contract.  The meet needs seminars, demonstrations and more content from the manufacturers and vendors geared towards the hobbyists that are operating and building layouts.

There should be meeting areas for the manufacturers and vendors to talk about their product and what is new.  Likewise hobbyists that are at the top of their game should be asked to share some of their talents in a talk or demonstration.  All of these could be posted in a schedule so members could attend the topics meaningful to them.

For those that like the meet just like it is, let me say this.  I'd like to see the meet around in another 10 years.  You have to think bigger than yourself.

Lots of great posts here with some valuable suggestions and ideas but this one gets a big +1.

Last edited by johnstrains
unclelouiesboy posted:

I also know that York is not the only focus of the TCA nor is it its only function. However it seems publicly it is the tail that wags the dog.

 

However it seams all may not be well, and a call for more is herd

Actually, the TCA has nothing to do with York. It is created and run by the Eastern Division. Most Divisions run local meets, however, York is much, much larger.

As to your second point: what does sewing have to do with cattle?

Joe Hohmann posted:
unclelouiesboy posted:

I also know that York is not the only focus of the TCA nor is it its only function. However it seems publicly it is the tail that wags the dog.

 

However it seams all may not be well, and a call for more is herd

Actually, the TCA has nothing to do with York. It is created and run by the Eastern Division. Most Divisions run local meets, however, York is much, much larger.

As to your second point: what does sewing have to do with cattle?

I guess this is what I should have expected, Im sorry my grammar and choice of words were not correct. I regret trying to bring something to the forefront that may make a difference to things or others as I know it did to me . But I can see were it would be eraser to correct the individual than to listen . Thanks for pointing that out . Gary NQDY 

To reply to the Original Question:

1)  Promote it to whom?  Joe SixPack?  Single Mom with 3 kids?  Railfan?  HO modeler?  TCA member?  Non-TCA member?  New Zealand Operator of Hornby Windup?  2-Rail O-Scaler?  OGR Forum Denizen?  Young Father looking for a Polar Express?   [Insert Name of Manufacturer Here] Groupie?  [Insert Name of Manufacturer Here] Detractor?  Retiree looking for a hobby? 

This questions is tied up with:

2)  Promote it as what?  Trade Show?  Swap Meet for TCA Members?  Swap Meet for any Model Rail?  Introduction to the Hobby for the General Public?  Modeling Convention?  Display Layout Venue?  Lure for Rails in other Scales to come to the Dark Side?  Flea Market?  PreFab Retail Mall?  Social Gathering?  Fund Raiser?  Vacation Hotspot?  Exchange of Collector Information?  Meet-and-Greet for Manufacturers and Retailers?  Free-Speech Forum?  A Hobby looking for retirees?

 

I am an outsider, but I can see that EVERY discussion of this or related subject I have ever read on the matter for more than 30 years has foundered on these two questions. 

I truly wish the ED the best in this, but, as my boss repeatedly intones, Success is mostly Management of Expectations.

I have been a TCA member for 40 years and been to York about 73 times. When I first attended it was a collectors meet and now has evolved, in my opinion, to an operators meet. With that being said I think the emphasis should be on the latest trends and electronic equipment and the scenic and innovative techniques now available to members. Young folks are all over electronic equipment but we need to let them know what is available for this fantastic hobby of running model railroads. There is still room for the pre and post war and MPC collectors but new blood needs to be made aware of all the newest things. Major manufacturers should have a great display and samples of what is now available and what is coming down the pike. It should be akin to the Car Shows of old where people wanted to see what is new. Advertise in magazines what displays will be there and layout building techniques. It is a great hobby and we want to share with the future operators.

This York was the best ever for me, I plan to meet folks and exchange trains, but most of all because of all the friends I've made over the years. Some are attached with different groups that I've joined (SGMA for example, OGR forum, the modern std gauge crowd, and a bunch of build it yourselfers). If those folks start to bail, I may too. It was super enjoyable meeting with friends old and new. 

Points made that are worth amplifying:

Know your target audience and change up the meet to fit (how to seminars would be great, demonstrations, builders),  forums, things that would attract younger families (Thomas is big), train races like at Allentown (the last show up there was PACKED!), do more of what Amherst does. Give stuff away. More operating layouts throughout each hall (getting there with White, but if non-TCA'rs can only go to Dealer Halls, that doesn't work completely).  Create an atmosphere of , do I say it? FUN!. I have grandkids now, they wouldn't last at York meet.

Really like the idea of setting up a rideable train outside of the halls (weather permitting, would have been really tough on Thursday).

Jim

Another thought about something that needs improvement in order to keep people coming (and spending) - NEW PRODUCT.

One major video producer had only one new video, and had minimal other stock.  Another video producer (along with other media) no longer had their own booth, and I didn't notice any videos (new or otherwise) or other new product in the space they were sharing.  No new standard gauge from MTH.  And on and on.  

It's a catch-22 - hard to justify new product when there's so much of the old to sell, but lack of new product won't stimulate any interest.

Putnam Division posted:

I am sad when I hear all the dire predictions about the future of York. Let’s be constructive. What can all of us do to promote York? I was able to stay till Saturday (I usually do that in the Spring) and I went to the Eastern Division business meeting. The Eastern Division leadership is aware of the issues  and I’m sure they would like to hear about good ideas to promote the show. Money is always a problem....which is no surprise.....heck, when was the last time you got a break at the grocery store?

Let’s have constructive ideas.......what would you do to promote York?

Peter

TCA 83-19115.......missed York twice since my 1st one in April 83......October 85 and October 89.

Peter, please see my separate post here on the "York Forum" about Orange and Purple Hall merchants packing up too early on Saturday.   This is something that must be done to IMPROVE York.  It pi--ed me off... and I am sure others are unhappy about this also.  I knew it was a problem before, but thought it had been dealt with.  If I were one of the "general public" members who paid to attend on Saturday (and whom we are trying to ATTRACT), I would find this a huge turn-off.  As a paid TCA member, I know, I certainly do.

It seems to me that York is a "destination" show.  In other words, it appears to me that most attendees live more than 100 miles from York.  (Please correct me if I am wrong.)   Therefore, I don't see advertising as the show's major problem.  Rather I see the problem as being that the show's sponsor really needs to have something special to entice people to travel long distances to attend the show.  Travel is expensive and takes time.  I am at a lost to describe an activity or event that is special to York that will continually lure people to the show.  I know that many people on this forum attend the show every year but many folks, including me, can't afford the time and money to do that.  I live in CA and have never been to York but I do intend to get there someday.   

Perhaps the show's sponsors should consider rotating the show through major metropolitan areas within the Eastern Division - Philadelphia, Baltimore, etc., and then back to York.  This may make the show easier to access for different groups and vendors.  It would also offer attendees changing activities and things to do at each site.  It would be more difficult to organize a rotating show but it might be worth the effort.

NH Joe

Allan Miller posted:
eddie g posted:

I believe that most or all the people that read OGR & CTT know about York.

I believe Eddie is probably right about that...especially for subscribers and regular readers. The York Meet has been covered in my column several times in the past 10 years, and it is often mentioned in feature articles.

Very true, very little outside (and inside) the lines promotion.  Take note that the Eastern Division did very little posting on ALL their online websites, including facebook, Twitter and Instagram about the upcoming April 2018 York Meet.  Not much activity or posting between Oct 2017 and April 2018.  IIRC, there was no major regional newspaper (Harrisburg Patriot, Philadelphia Inquirer, Baltimore Sun) or television advertising.

https://www.facebook.com/YorkTrainShow/

https://twitter.com/yorktrainshow

https://www.instagram.com/yorktrainshow/

Even the EDiv's website wasn't completely updated with current April 2018 info. (Dealer hall charts weren't updated from Oct '17 to Apr '18 until after this meet ended.

For so many years the lack of pictures and detailed info to explain what The York Meet had to offer to those on the fringe or outside of the O gauge hobby was a critical mistake especially in the can't get enough mid to late 1990's IMO.  You likely knew about the meet if you or a close family member was a TCA member or were readers of OGR and CTT, but that's preaching to the shrinking choir.

The York Meet is obviously a very expensive meet/show to produce and as others mentioned or hinted, might need to shrink to a once a year (Fall) and/or 2 day event.  Possibly accept the idea with the related financial impact (pos & neg) and reduced status that the meet might revert back to its older self of mainly a few member trading halls or one large Orange member trading hall.

So to answer this thread's topic as to what can be done to better promote York - 1) Promote the meet to the general public.  2) EDiv mgmt needs to immediately meet to discuss the financial results, table rentals, registrations sold (not badges issued) and attendees input from the April meet and then obtain future cost quotes from the York Fairgrounds.  Based on much of the April results, the EDiv should strongly and honestly consider their volunteer commitment and mission as to what they can effectively carry out and for how long. 

The old "that's how we always did it" answer no longer can hold the amount of water necessary to run the meet in the form it has run over the past 20 years.

My age is 30 years old, so I guess that would make me a part of the "younger generation" group.  I am of course an avid O gauge modeler.   I can think of 5 or 6 people I personally know that are around my age and are involved with model trains, but they all model HO scale.  Many of them feel O gauge is just too expensive, which I can understand.  That being said, I'm not so sure this hobby is dying, I think the real problem may be there are not many young people taking the plunge into O scale.

My suggestion is to to invite more HO/N scale dealers and even manufactures to the York show.  If we are trying to a attract a younger crowd, I think it would be prudent to try and offer more of other scales that typically have a large following from the younger generation.  I know the York show has always been a collector show with an emphasis on O and S gauge, but maybe its time to put a larger emphasis on other scales. 

 

Maybe hold a York type show in N.Y.C. I am also new to the hobby & don`t want to drive 3 hours- If they would do the same type show in the Javits convention center I`m shure more people would show up & get interested...Also when was the last time anyone saw a television commercial? -You would think Lionel, MTH, & other O guage manufacturers would run a spot pre holiday season- It`s also up to everyone in the hobby to FREE advertise by putting trainsets up in shop windows, banks, & malls like they used to when they were younger- Then you may see more interest in the hobby by all age groups & have better sales! ( Try it & post your responces on the forum)

Some interesting suggestions in this thread.  I'm not against most of them, but as with most suggestions about anything, the suggestions have to go to the people who have the ability to make the changes.  Responding directly to the Eastern Division Board of Directors is the best shot at making any changes.  Writing about it here gets nothing done.  Don't think they'll listen?  That will be on them, we can only try.

Other than Peter, were there any others here who attended the York Meet that have issues with it attend the Eastern Division Members meeting on Saturday morning?  That would have been the best place to start with grievances.

As with any suggestions of change, remember that those who organize and operate the York Meet are volunteers who donate their time to produce a great toy train event.  They are not paid to do this.  Anyone want to devote some time to advertise, set up a train ride for kids, organize outside groups to attend, etc.?  The members could care less, they just want a venue to buy, trade and sell their trains.  It wasn't created to entertain the masses or vendors or importers.  It's not meant to get more people involved with trains.  The Worlds Greatest Hobby Shows does that.  The York Meet is the result of what the WGH shows do.

Sure there are things that can be done to attract more members and even the non-members.  But it takes the will to do it and the volunteers to make it happen.

I have an idea that could possibly bring in hundreds if not thousands more attendees.  All those people who whined and cried about the two signature sponsor rule, or the no cell phone rule or the no camera rules the York Meet had and said they'd only attend if they were eliminated.  Well, they were eliminated.  Where are those people??

 

Last edited by Traindiesel

Contrary to popular belief, Lionel, MTH, OGR, local train clubs, and other vendors do promote the York meet.  They use social media to announce they are attending and announce the public times. 

Advertising a local level will help but the average family or casual model RR will not travel much further than an hour to attend.  Let's face it York isn't near a major population hub.  I would hope though that through LHS the EDTCA could send an email flyer that could be on the counter for those who don't know about it.  Then again do some shops dislike York week due to loss of business?

While I am all for trying to draw more attendees, some of the ideas take time, money, and people to implement.  As Brian stated they are volunteers and I'm sure this takes a lot of time.  Money well we all want more of that.  People.  I suspect many suggesting more of these ideas that take people's time and effort wouldn't help if asked. 

Back to the original question of promotion.  Again a simple email blast to LHS with a flyer attached.  A little more local advertising in the immediate area.  Leverage your vendors a bit more if possible.  Leverage the TCA membership.  While it is an EDTCA event, the entire TCA membership does attend so use them.  I do like the ideas of some workshops.  If you can convince enough of the vendors to do an hour seminar like the DCS ones you could probably get about a days worth spread out over the event.  Some of the ideas take very little to implement so maybe worth the try.

I always talk of York at the LHS.  I explain what it's all about.  Word of mouth is the best advertising.  I guess the bottom line is that I don't think we have all the answers.  Certainly those who all they do is trash talk, discourage, and put down the meet are not helping at all.  The EDTCA has made quite a few changes in the last 5 years that we thought we'd never see.  They are trying.  Some vendors will stomp their feet and go away.  Some will use this as a chance to do better.

Last edited by MartyE
Sal V. posted:

Maybe hold a York type show in N.Y.C. I am also new to the hobby & don`t want to drive 3 hours- If they would do the same type show in the Javits convention center I`m shure more people would show up & get interested...Also when was the last time anyone saw a television commercial? -You would think Lionel, MTH, & other O guage manufacturers would run a spot pre holiday season- .......

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume it's a lot more expensive to rent the Javits Convention Center than the York County Fairgrounds.  Is there similar free parking (question in jest - I am sure there is not!)?

Driving 3 hours is a really small trip compared to what many do.  I drive 2 hours and consider myself a (relative) local.

TV commercials are an absolute huge cost with no guaranteed benefit.

Walter Anderson posted:
L.I.TRAIN posted:

 One consideration would be to raise the non member admission to $25 for full access.

Just my thoughts.

Steve

 

 

maybe 2 or 3 $'s, not 5/

Full general public access can't happen for tax reasons for member (non-business) sellers.  See my description here.

Never happening, unless you want to chase away half of those sellers.

Last edited by Dave45681

Maybe hold a York type show in N.Y.C. I am also new to the hobby & don`t want to drive 3 hours- If they would do the same type show in the Javits convention center I`m shure more people would show up & get interested...Also when was the last time anyone saw a television commercial? -You would think Lionel, MTH, & other O guage manufacturers would run a spot pre holiday season- .......

I think the folks in the Orange Hall, like Lionel, MTH, and all those others who earn their living from our hobby, should band together and put on a show like this. The TCA does not need to be in the business of drumming up new customers for businesses.

palallin posted:

To reply to the Original Question:

1)  Promote it to whom? Retiree looking for a hobby? 

Success is mostly Management of Expectations.

I think this would be helpful, possibly with a article or ad in magazines like AARP. I came back into the hobby big time since I retired in 1995. The kids had finished collage, and I had spare cash (wife was still working). Although I've always had hobbies and interests, a lot of guys are clueless about what to do after their "work" life.

I agree that expectations are a key issue. Given the fact that "playing with trains as a kid" is not the factor it used to be, and that people are less interested in "collecting", and that eBay and on-line has become a major place to buy and sell, and that fewer kids today want any form of hobby.....

Maybe a few very dedicated "train nuts" could get together in a barn twice a year to talk, trade, and sell trains to each other...but not make the mistake of calling it an "association".

Mallard4468 posted:

Thanks for starting the thread in a thoughtful manner.

I'm not sure how the tax issue can be communicated more clearly, but it IS an issue, and opening the entire meet to the public is a non-starter.  (Covered very well by Dave45861's post above).

Since we can now buy trains anywhere and anytime, 

MartyE posted:
 The only reason we are having this discussion is that the York meet became bigger than I suspect they ever intended. 

Respectively MartyE, I would like this discussions purpose be increasing the numbers of Hobbyist/Customers. Size of shows not an issue. Number of people involved in the Hobby. Hence, manufacturers having a decent bottom line to keep producing(stay in business) many products. JMHO

C W Burfle posted:

 

I think the folks in the Orange Hall, like Lionel, MTH, and all those others who earn their living from our hobby, should band together and put on a show like this. The TCA does not need to be in the business of drumming up new customers for businesses.

If the fun and pleasure in this Hobby is not shared far and wide, it will die.   The TCA absolutely needs to HELP drum up customers/Hobbyist!

If the fun and pleasure in this Hobby is not shared far and wide, it will die.   The TCA absolutely needs to HELP drum up customers/Hobbyist!

As someone who has been in the hobby since about 1969, I feel confident saying that no, train collecting and operating will not die as a hobby. There were some fairly lean years in 1969 and the early 1970's. 
There will always be a group of people who are interested.  The number of manufacturers may shrink significantly, but there is plenty of merchandise already out there. There may be a return to small "basement companies" making the stuff we need to keep our trains going.

The TCA never was, and never should be a manufacturer's support organization. It's the manufacturers who should be supporting the TCA, not the other way around.

The way I see it, by operating mainly a closed meet and doing the public a "favor" by opening two halls to everyone for two days is a severe limitation, not the formula for long term success.  You can't really advertise it to the public as the restrictions would not be clearly understood.  How would you word this on a billboard "come to the York train meet, 7 halls of trains but only two open to the public" . It would be waste of money. Since no other show in Pennsylvania (automotive, firearm, computer, antique) operates like the ED/TCA they are in a unique position.

The meet still draws around 10,000. I believe that is sufficient to pay the bills and perhaps turn a small profit for the time being. What is working against growth is the changing demographics of those that purchase the trains and attracting the same stale audience.  The ED has a challenge on its hands. Sellers, (the table holders) go to the meet to make money If you don't get new people in, there will eventually be no sellers and no meet. If there will be a York a few years from now, shrinking the meet or opening everything to the public (and making it family friendly) will be the only option.

The WGHOT show draws up to 20,000 on a weekend with one 100,000 sq ft  hall . The Allentown Train Meet with two halls and only 50,000 sq ft of floor space draws 5,000 (half of York) . York has like 170,000 sq ft of floor space and draws 10,000.  Just do the math.

 

The problem with many of the ideas, if you will, is the agreement that the EDTCA has with the state taxman.  This limits the public access to the show.  If you want the public everywhere that goes away and so does the majority of the folks selling at the member level.  Believe or not without them, York would go away faster than now. The vendors could do better at a location that wasn't originally intended to be for a member only, local show. Any solution has to keep this deal in place.  

The EDTCA has done a good job at pushing this as far as they can go.  The member halls cannot be open to the public.  I also suspect the public have very little interest in what's in those halls as they are geared more towards the collector anyways.  It's always so easy looking from the outside in to come up with ideas but without knowing all the inner workings something that seems so obvious and a good idea is often not.

 

Last edited by MartyE

How would you word this on a billboard "come to the York train meet, 7 halls of trains but only two open to the public" . It would be waste of money.

The answer is: You wouldn't.
Not that I am in favor of billboards, but you would list the positive.
Something like:
"500 dealers" or "200 tables" or whatever the number in the dealer halls might be..
No need to mention the private part at all.

Listing the number of halls would be meaningless anyway.
How many dealers in each hall? - 20, 50, 100, 1,000?

C W Burfle posted:

How would you word this on a billboard "come to the York train meet, 7 halls of trains but only two open to the public" . It would be waste of money.

The answer is: You wouldn't.
Not that I am in favor of billboards, but you would list the positive.
Something like:
"500 dealers" or "200 tables" or whatever the number in the dealer halls might be..
No need to mention the private part at all.

Listing the number of halls would be meaningless anyway.
How many dealers in each hall? - 20, 50, 100, 1,000?

Billboard rates in York are $1500-$5000 per month for a standard billboard, $2500-$8000 per month for a digital billboard.  One month minimum.  https://www.billboardsin.com/pennsylvania/york.html

One can Google "billboard rates in York Pennsylvania" for other rates if so desired.

I think that's for the billboard space only and doesn't include the cost of media.

Rusty

Traindiesel posted:

As with any suggestions of change, remember that those who organize and operate the York Meet are volunteers who donate their time to produce a great toy train event.  They are not paid to do this.  Anyone want to devote some time to advertise, set up a train ride for kids, organize outside groups to attend, etc.?  The members could care less, they just want a venue to buy, trade and sell their trains.  It wasn't created to entertain the masses or vendors or importers.  It's not meant to get more people involved with trains.  The Worlds Greatest Hobby Shows does that.  The York Meet is the result of what the WGH shows do.

Speaking as someone who has been a volunteer in setting up and producing a train show (not on the scale of York, if course), I think this paragraph is perhaps the most important one in the whole discussion.

As long as the ED members work this way and feel this way, York will not become all the things that everyone else wants it to be.

I am NOT being critical:  I applaud.  Until we have the proverbial skin in the game--and travelling to York as a buyer or even as a manufacturer does not qualify--we have no say in how they do it.  If York reverted to its beginnings, the ED folks might well be much happier.  It is, after all, their playground, not ours.

Personally, I think the TCA Eastern York meet is dong just fine, as is, from the observation as an attendee.  Attendance may have been down this spring, due to various reasons, especially the weather.   This meet has been ongoing for years for TCA members as TCA members to attend, one of the benefits to being a TCA member.  If the meet is opened to the public in all halls, all days, why would anyone pay annual dues to belong to TCA?  

Seems to me this subject comes up after every York.  I believe the Eastern Division does a great job, and should be thanked for a job well done.  I believe they evaluate each York, and listen to suggestions to improve, etc.    One change that might help attendance, lessen expense for vendors may be to go back to only Friday and Saturday. 

Per conversations after last week’s York, several vendors in the Orange hall indicated attendance was down, but their sales were the best of any York they’ve attended.  

Personally I have looked forward to attending the York TCA over the past 28 years and like it just the way it is.    If changes need to be made to continue the great job Eastern Division does, I will support them.    

 

My thanks to Peter for attempting to elicit serious responses which could benefit all parties.

Here are my thoughts and suggestions:

The Eastern Division and table holders need to form a bi-partison committee to develop proposals which create marketing pressure for the meet.  Face it, the majority of members who hold tables are at York to make money or advertise their business.  They attend York to promote sales.  A working definition of a sales promotion is “media and non-media marketing pressure applied for a predetermined, limited period of time in order to stimulate trial, increase consumer demand, or improve product quality." While this definition covers the broad details of sales promotion, the truth is that sales promotion is all about incentives. In essence, sales promotion gives potential customers an additional reason (or reasons) to consider doing business with you.

The idea behind this is that once customers are willing to take that first leap of faith and try your product or services they’ll be satisfied enough with the results to be willing to be a return customer or recommend you to people they know.   I see many examples table holder pricing being completely out of sync with what the market will bear.

To effectively motivate customers into doing business with your business or organization,  the  promotion strategy should include five elements:

1) Identifying your target audience. Over the course of a lifetime, loyal customers spend upwards of 10 times the amount spent by average customers. The difficulty of any marketing effort lies in locating individuals who will eventually develop into brand advocates. Many marketers believe that by casting a large enough net, they’ll be able to locate those individuals simply by virtue of percentages. After all, if enough prospects are contacted, a percentage of those prospects is bound to journey through the sales funnel and become paying customers, and a smaller percentage of those customers will become loyal customers. 

The problem with this mentality is that it’s remarkably inefficient, with only a small fraction of prospects and leads “paying off” to offset the initial investment. By predetermining a target audience, businesses can put their own finite marketing resources to better use. Through this process, businesses can target those most likely to become loyal customers without wasting any resources on those who aren’t.

 The same can be said for sales promotion campaigns. In order to understand the best target audience for your promotion, you first need to understand more about the customers you already have. Send out a simple survey or questionnaire (or have one built directly into your site) that allows customers to share demographic data. Offer an incentive up front in order to get customers to take the time to share personal information. 

Once you’ve a clearer idea of what kinds of people use your product or service, identify exactly what kinds of problems your product or service is designed to solve. With these two factors in mind, you should focus your sales promotion toward those who are most likely to be genuinely interested.

At a minimum, all businesses should send out direct email blasts to their customers letting them know about the York Meet.  Facebook postings are not enough and rely on the customer going to you.  Businesses should be proactive and reach out themselves.

 2) Determine and strive to achieve measurable goals. There’s no denying the importance of setting goals. In fact, in a study performed by the Harvard MBA program, those who made and recorded clear goals went on to earn on average 10 times the amount of those who didn’t. When designing a sales promotion campaign, your goals need to be more specific than ‘increasing sales.’ 

So, what's your strategy? Ask yourself what the most important objective of your promotion should be. Are you hoping to draw in new customers, or are you more inclined to focus on customer retention? Do you want your customers to purchase more frequently, or would you like for them to increase the average amount that they spend on a purchase? Are you attempting to increase the business that your organization gets during slower seasons or times of the day? Are you interested in regaining the attention of former customers who have taken their business elsewhere? 

Determine exactly what you would like to accomplish with the meet, and when possible, translate that goal into a specific number. This will allow you to chart your failure or success as the campaign progresses, and to identify aspects of your campaign that need to be amended or further developed.

3) Limited Availability.   Behavioral psychologists have found that human beings tend to assign greater value to things they perceive as being scarce. In a classic study performed in 1975, researchers had participants assign perceived value to identical cookies located in two identical jars. The only difference between the two jars was that one held 10 cookies, while the other held only two. The study discovered that while there was no apparent difference between the cookies or the jars, participants assigned greater value to the jar of two cookies.

 When something seems limited, we naturally assign it greater value. We tend to want things we can’t have or that we fear that we won’t be able to have in the near future. At base, we’re animals that have a keen sense of regret, and we hate missed opportunities. Call FOMO – the fear of missing out. The best marketers have learned how to take advantage of this very human phenomenon by offering limited-time deals. A sales promotion—such as lower prices —may seem like an attractive incentive for motivating sales, but unless that promotion is only available for a limited time or in limited quantities, then a large majority of customers will not be interested. On the other hand, if those customers are faced with the possibility of missing the promotion if they don’t act quickly, they’ll be far more likely to commit. 

Some ideas here are blowout pricing which is below your best advertised sale price during other sales or a one time coupon for select savings on a future purchase.

Anyone remember the stampede last year for the Lionel limited edition York boxcar?

  4) Sufficient promotion.  The promotion is an effort to draw customer attention to the table holders who are selling.  But what about drawing attention to the promotion itself? In order for a promotion to be effective, it needs to be seen and understood by the same target audience identified back in point number-one. The question becomes, how does one promote a promotion?

I believe they can be promoted much like any other product or service. In-store signage, employee word-of-mouth, social media, your business’ website, email contact, flyers, paper mailers, articles in local publications, press releases, commercials and telephone contact may all be effective in letting your customers and prospective customers know about your sales promotion. Visibility is key but it may be most beneficial to focus promotional strategies on less-expensive—though still tightly focused—channels. For example, emails to interested parties have a very high rate of return, with 44% of email recipients making at least one annual purchase based on a promotional email. 

While Rich said you have to spend money to make money, I don't believe this is entirely accurate.  What you really are trying to do is reach your targeted audience – and yes, sometimes that takes money.

 5)  Creating Value.  When all is said and done, the customer is interested in just one thing: value. If your promotion doesn’t offer your customers real value, then all of the limited-time offers and targeted marketing in the world isn’t going to make your promotion a success. 

Ask yourself what kind of offer your potential customers will find most interesting, and then determine whether or not you can afford to give it to them. If you can, then you may have found the perfect sales promotion. If you can’t, then scale it back until you come to a compromise that will be interesting to your target audience, while still remaining cost effective for your organization.  

A successful promotional campaign is one in which everyone benefits. If either you or your customers are coming away from the experience feeling unsatisfied, then you need to revisit and reevaluate your promotional strategy.

 

The fact is there are certain realities which will not change (dealing with the tax man) so access to all halls without being a TCA member is a non-starter.  But at its core this hobby is about PEOPLE.  We all have countless stories of PEOPLE in our hobby stepping up to help out other PEOPLE both inside and outside the hobby.  Surely, those with the expertise could very well advise on how to get started if that is their wish.

The time for complaining is over. The time for working together is here.

In closing, my sincere thanks to all the VOLUNTEERS who work tirelessly and mostly in anonymity year round to make the York meet the single best place to gather for the hobby!

-Greg

Aem7s4lyfe posted:

Is it possible to host the meet in a big city like Philadelphia?  Other than the railroad museums, there really isn't any tourist things to do in York, PA.  There's the Great Expo Center in Oaks, PA that is about 30-45 mins from Philadelphia.  People can visit the city of brotherly love while attending the show.

I live just outside of Philadelphia. I've also been to the Expo Center in Oaks many times (Greenberg, WGHS, and gun shows, and a 30 minute drive for me). It would take 2-3 Expo Centers to hold York. The parking, as is, is not adequate for a "full house" event (for the huge gun show, I arrive 45 minutes before the Friday opening). Actually Greenberg  backed out of setting up in Oaks for a while due to high rates. I'm not sure about the hotel situation near Oaks, but it would not be any cheaper than York. I know that the Greenburg and gun shows do not require many motel rooms because they have a lot of "local" venues (so no need to travel long distances). Of course, hotels in the city are $$$$. BTW, there is no public transportation from Phila to Oaks. 

For train lovers, Strasburg is only 45 minutes from York with the steam RR plus the PRR Museum. Also not very far away is the Gettysburg battlefield.  Strasburg is also "Amish country" with tours, lectures, and places to eat. 

Certainly some points to ponder:

Target audience. Well, we know the FORMER target audience is now the target audience of nursing homes and undertakers. We'll have to find a new one. BTW, I'm one of the former.

Determine goals. Well, do we want 15 or 20 or 25,000 showing up? I don't even want to imagine parking or aisle congestion.

Limited availability. That BS worked great in the 1980s. How many of you fell for that one? Now your stuff is worth much less than you paid for those "limited editions" and "rare" items. Thank you Greenberg Publishing Co. for your "guides".

Maybe I'm saying this in jest....or not. 

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