What if Lionel were to build S Gauge steam engines with plastic shells.

I am all for it. When you look at the detailing available in modern plastic. It is outstanding. Why wouldn't we try this? For the record I'm a 35 year old married guy.  Probably one of the youngest on here for S anyway.

Bill, thanks for starting the new thread. Based on your comments above I would absolutely purchase plastic shell locomotives. I do think it is important they be painted and not bare plastic. I prefer Legacy with DCC compatibility.

Bill:

I am not opposed to plastic locomotives.  As long as the detail can be on the level with the Y-3's.  I would like the electronics to support DCC, but the Flyer Chief Berkshire performs remarkably well.  Have been very pleased with the offerings from Lionel motive power.  Would also encourage more rolling stock items now that the truck fiasco of the cylindrical hoppers is behind us.

Roger

It was interesting to note that the cost of a plastic engine at cost price to Lionel could be somewhere between 1/4 and a 1/3 of a die cast engine. So taking a stab in the dark could we assume that the Y3 cost Lionel about $400 and they then sell them to dealers for somewhere over $500? If some dealers have been moving them on for not much more for clearnece I would like to think that they are not doing so at a loss, or may be?

So on a hyperthetical set of figures above, a plastic Y3 could  cost Lionel $150-175 to have produced. The problem now is that if people accept plastic shells on steamers,  will they pass on what could be a significant saving to the end purchaser or will they take advantage of a lower unit cost and still keep the prices up high close to a die cast unit and therefore make a larger profit for themselves?

If they were honourable and set the cost to the end user at a pro rata rate then there could be some great deals to be had and possibly people that just buy a single item could be tempted to purchase more. Just out of interest what does an HO plastic Y3 cost these days?

Then this brings us onto the freight and passenger cars being offered, if steam locomotives could cost us considerably less by being plastic, then why are we paying so much for for them? ( I think most of us have our views on this).

As for Legacy or Lionchief, I am happy to have them as Lionchief, keeps cost down and has most things I need. 

The plastic should be thick enough to be sturdy. Steam engines have lots of things hanging out, like cab roofs, pilots, smoke stacks and so on. The plastic will have to be thick like Gilbert locos so as not to be broken off easily.

You could really feel the difference in the thickness of Williams diesel shells when they went from traditional locos (F-7, GP-9, Sharks) to scale locos (AlCo FA, EMD E-7) and such.

The detail on the SD70s, U33s and ES44s are fantastic.  Obviously all plastic and good pullers.  As long as a steamer looks great and pulls I don't care if it is plastic.  I want more product and choices in the S gauge market.  If plastic is the answer so be it.

Are there any good examples of highly detailed plastic steamers out there in other gauges to take a look at for comparison? 

Ben 

NotInWI posted:

The detail on the SD70s, U33s and ES44s are fantastic.  Obviously all plastic and good pullers.  As long as a steamer looks great and pulls I don't care if it is plastic.  I want more product and choices in the S gauge market.  If plastic is the answer so be it.

Are there any good examples of highly detailed plastic steamers out there in other gauges to take a look at for comparison? 

Ben 

Howz ziz?

The Athearn HO SP MT4.

Rusty

Roundhouse Bill posted:

 Assuming the engines had enough weight to pull the same number of cars as a Y3, would you purchase a plastic shelled locomotive?

Nope. 

Plastic steam engines are OK for down market starter sets, but not for quality pieces in the larger scales. Die cast is more durable over the long term with screw threads that are better able to withstand damage after repeated reassembly. And, I suspect the claimed cost savings is being overstated (the electronics are to be still comparable). Maerklin (arguably, the world's best mass market train maker with the durability and QC to prove it) dabbled in plastic for a short period and then reverted to sheet metal and die cast because of quality (real and perceived) and lack of customer acceptance. SHS incorporated much plastic into the design of the tender and detail parts for their 2-8-0, resulting in many of its parts being fragile. Many fear to disassemble or ship it. By contemporary comparison, the all-metal Lionel-AF Mikado and Pacific are far more physically robust.

Rolling stock and diesel body shells are often brought up to support the use of plastic. Rolling stock gains in light weight and cost, but rolling stock are not usually operating devices and are seldom taken apart for repair. The easily stripped screw holes in diesel bodies are precisely what puts me off. And, notice, if you will, that the most premium of diesels and electrics in Lionel's O scale lineup (i.e., JLC, VL) are made from die cast.

Metal = quality. Plastic = cheapo.

Bob

Bob,

I agree that stripped plastic screw holes are a real pain but if Lionel know what our views are now, then it shouldn't be difficult to have a metal threaded insert set into a plastic housing which would overcome this problem

Ukaflyer posted:

Just out of interest what does an HO plastic Y3 cost these days?

 

Not a Y3 (which currently isn't available in HO,) but the plastic Athearn HO SP MT4 pictured three posts up MSRP's out at $419.98 with DCC and Tsunami sound.  $319.98 for straight DC, no sound.

I think what's going to need to happen is what type of plastic steam locomotive, if it's going to be Conventional, Legacy or FlyerChief and an estimated price range before folks can make a valid decision on if they'd be interested or not.

Rusty

Rusty, Lionel has done no active planning on plastic locomotives. This is just a consideration.

Bob, all of the Flyonel diesels have plastic screw holes. How many have you had problems with? You are thinking of 60 year old Gilbert engines.

Thanks for your interest.

Ed Rappe sold me a Weaver brass 4-6-0 chassis a while back and I made a boiler for it using a length of 2" PVC round stock.

Its more or less "plastic" although it was a solid piece.

After turning the outside shape on my mini-lathe I bored the middle out with a 3/4" drill bit (for headlight wiring) and cut out the clearance for the motor and drive components.

With some brass parts added on it's just as heavy and sturdy as any of my Diecast engines.

I would be happy to see plastic steam, the detail should be better and crisper than Diecast.

I'm all for it!

Plastic boilers on steamers is OK by me.  It can be as detailed as the manufacturer makes it.  The weight is not a problem if the locomotive is balanced correctly and has traction tires.  Die cast may be better, but again, it all depends on the amount of detail the manufacturer puts into it.  However, if it's Lionel, I'll never buy it.  My C&O Berk which was sent back and repaired by Charles Ro's service department for running issues has now had its smoke unit quit after about 5 hours running.  This thing is a lemon, even having a metal boiler.  When it ran, it ran great and pulled as many cars as I wanted.  I never wanted TMCC, FlyerChief, Legacy or anything but basic sound and smoke.  As my dad used to say about more options on cars: "More to go wrong."  He was right.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Rusty, Lionel has done no active planning on plastic locomotives. This is just a consideration.

Hmmm...

Rusty

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Bob, all of the Flyonel diesels have plastic screw holes. How many have you had problems with? You are thinking of 60 year old Gilbert engines.

Thanks for your interest.

Yes, I am, but there is a similar problem with relatively new O scale diesels, too. A threaded insert, as suggested above, would help. With over 60 years of experience in the hobby, I clearly prefer metal for motive power. I shall leave it to others to financially experiment with plastic-bodied steam, particularly for the first production run. 

Thanks for asking.

Bob

I cannot see the cost advantage if the same level of detail is accomplished. The detail is in the add on components. They cannot be molded in, because for the most part they are hanging out there in free air. So, what is the advantage of molded plastic?

it sounds like it is worth a try

Bob C.

Oman posted:

I cannot see the cost advantage if the same level of detail is accomplished. The detail is in the add on components. They cannot be molded in, because for the most part they are hanging out there in free air. So, what is the advantage of molded plastic?

I'm not a tool maker and it really needs someone that is to reply to this but I would say that for a die cast body you might be using a hardened steel which is going to take longer to cut and possibly be more difficult to work, whereas for plastic you could get away with material that is a lot easier to work and let's you add more detail and will run off a lot of copies, therefore costs can be greatly reduced.

Keith:  The tooling for a plastic engine is much less expensive that diecast.  The tooling to make the mold for making the engine shells over and over again is what is the most expensive for Lionel and MTH in developing new engines.  It is the high cost of developing and building the tooling that keeps these companies from building all the engine types we could ask for.