What is your take on the used train market?

Yes the prices are soft - In fact, I see that O gauge is taking on the same price pressure of the old HO and N sets of our youth.  You buy it for a high price and sell it for a low price.  Doesn't matter if it is new in the box.  Your Protosound or Lionel electronics lose value when there is no warranty.  The cost of an out of warranty repair on these sound systems can cost more than the diesel cost to begin with.  The hobby is becoming consumable (no longer investible) - Run your trains.

I bought tons of trains during the 1990s. All those remade Lionel things... Paying $45-55 dollars.  I have had them on ebay at $19 and no one wants them STILL new and never used MINT....  My goal is to liquidate things and only keep what I run or will run.... no more pile of unused trains under the table.

When I do sell it for $19, and decide a year from now I want it again new and MINT, I will just go to a train show and buy a new mint one again for $19.

I learned this watching the trains over the years:  I no longer buy anything the year it comes out.  I wait a couple of years and get it for LOTS less

Maybe the lesson is that "He who died with the most unused toys - loses!" 

As long as you didn't spend money that should have been used elsewhere, then I don't think so.
If you purchased it you must have wanted it, received some pleasure from the purchase, and from knowing that you own it. Isn't that what spending discretionary funds is all about?

As Matt has mentioned, sometime, somehow, in the past 20-30 years or so it sure seems to me that shipping charges went through the roof! Getting a small package through the mail was never a big deal. Now, it often costs more to ship than the item costs! Last year I ordered a lot of WS inlines and risers through the mail. Bulky but light as a feather. Shipping costs were just staggering from the on-line seller! ($600 dollars????!!!) I called, thinking it had to be a mistake. He figured out how his software was coming up with that figure. We got it down to a little more than $100! Still, for some foam?????? We are not talking about a cubic meter here either!!

This was from the US to Canada, BTW. Via USPS.

Shipping now has to be carefully considered on any purchase, new or used! Don't get me started on ebay's global shipping program!

I see many items on the used market that interest me . . . but shipping costs kill the deal. From my perspective, high shipping costs play a significant role in depressing prices for used stuff, ESPECIALLY the small stuff! In fact, it kills interest in the entire market! Years ago I sold my CDs and DVDs through the mail. Shipping, which used to be a dollar or so, now makes it impossible to sell these things through the mail at all!

With my conventional O27/O31 focus, I’m delighted at the prices and variety. The secondary market is bursting with like-new products that I’m happy to embrace. This is a golden age for being able to get products that work for you and your layout, regardless of your focus.

eBay is the place to be… Research who you buy from, limit who can buy from you, and take an active role in ensuring the transaction completes promptly and properly, and you won't have any problems. YOU are in control of who you purchase from and sell to. If an auction has blurry pictures, vague descriptions, or something feels shady, just move on.

I do always enjoy reading about the supposed demise of postwar trains. As I’ve said before, I have a ’65 Mustang, and nobody has ever suggested I should upgrade to a "better" new one.  This is the world's greatest hobby, and it's the best time to be in it.  I'd like to think we could all agree on that, anyway! 

Here.

Got tired of the BS on eBay.

Gentlemen,

Shipping Cost, you just pushed the right button with me.

    One of my pet peeves is the way some businesses & individuals use shipping costs to actually up the prices of what ever they are selling. I have often wondered if there is not some way to stop this fraudulent selling practice.  Many times I pay the UPS cost when I purchase an item, then the item is put in the USPS snail mail, that takes 10 days to be derived to me, when I have payed for UPS Ground.  Further when I order anything now, via UPS, I make a note on the shipping contract, that the item must be delivered to my front door, by the UPS Carrier, and not be dropped in USPS.  I believe if I pay for a package to be delivered in a certain manner, it should be delivered the way.  Recently I purchase a Z4K Remote Commander Receiver, now this item is a very light 4"x 4" piece of electrical gear.  In order to purchase this item, I had to agree to a .050 handling fee & a $10.29 Shipping cost, supposedly by UPS,  I am waiting to see if the item actually arrives USPS, for the $3.00 actual cost.

PCRR/Dave

Look at "actually sold" listings on ebay for MPC boxcars basically "like new in box".  $7 or $8 sold price plus $9 to ship.  I don't understand why the sellers even bother?  For $7, it wouldn't be worth my time to take it to the post office.  I would just chuck it in the garbage and try to take a lesson learned from it.

Terry Danks posted:

...

Shipping now has to be carefully considered on any purchase, new or used! ...

I see many items on the used market that interest me . . . but shipping costs kill the deal.   ...

Terry, so true.  I recently made a huge purchase of ScaleTrax items because the dealer was blowing out his inventory of toy train items that were more than 2 years old.  So I struck gold with my ScaleTrax purchase.  The sub-total BEFORE shipping was the "good news".  The grand total AFTER shipping was the "bad news".    I was almost thinking of driving down to southern Maryland myself to pick up the goods!  

Having said that though, I really think what we're seeing in terms of shipping costs today has more to do with the fact that shipping companies now realize the key/important role they're playing in EVERYONE's business model.  Conversely, folks using  the shipping company services realize the strategic importance of shipping in today's businesses as well.

Think about our little corner of the world in toy train land.  40 years ago, Charles Ro was one of the "few" big-name national, mail-order Lionel dealers.  Charlie would have a huge booth at the Allentown train show back then (he doesn't anymore), and I'd think, "Hey, there's the guy who runs an 8-page advertisement spread every month in the toy train magazines.  And they're right here in Allentown today!"  Fast-forward to 2016... when there are MANY more "mail-order" Lionel dealers clamoring for our business... and it largely centers around the fact that the shipping companies have leveled the playing field for ALL dealers in the eyes of the consumer.   We can pick up the phone and order product from any of several dealers now.  Or order directly from their website (if you prefer not to talk with anybody).  And within a day or two, your stuff is sitting on your doorstep without you taking your car out of the garage.    So the shipping companies have essentially "erased the fact" (in our minds, anyway) that those dealers are hundreds of -- or even over a thousand -- miles away from us and the LHS.

As the saying goes... There's no free lunch in life.  We're definitely paying the price for certain conveniences today.

David

Regarding shipping, I also strongly suspect that pricing is strongly skewed in favor of "wholesale" shippers. Plenty of free shipping on any sort of item from Amazon and other extremely large outfits.

PLCProf posted:

Regarding shipping, I also strongly suspect that pricing is strongly skewed in favor of "wholesale" shippers. Plenty of free shipping on any sort of item from Amazon and other extremely large outfits.

I don't really think the shipping is free. I just think it's buried in the cost of the product.

Michael Hokkanen posted:

PLCProf posted:

Regarding shipping, I also strongly suspect that pricing is strongly skewed in favor of "wholesale" shippers. Plenty of free shipping on any sort of item from Amazon and other extremely large outfits.

I don't really think the shipping is free. I just think it's buried in the cost of the product.

Yes, of course, but the cost needs to be small enough that it can be buried!

Michael Hokkanen posted:

PLCProf posted:

Regarding shipping, I also strongly suspect that pricing is strongly skewed in favor of "wholesale" shippers. Plenty of free shipping on any sort of item from Amazon and other extremely large outfits.

I don't really think the shipping is free. I just think it's buried in the cost of the product.

I would respectfully disagree and believe that PLCPof has a point. 

I believe that when my employer ships via UPS, they are billed at somewhere around 1/3 of what the 'retail' UPS price would be.

Another example is that last week I ordered a new rear step bumper for my old truck on eBay last week.  Cost was $200 with FREE shipping.  Bumper arrived in two days (Illinois to Maryland) via FedEx.  Couldn't have been much shipping cost built into the price as the local junk also wanted $200 for a used one.

Yet, when I try to ship a small box at the post office, it often costs me $10 - $15.

Jim

Michael,

   I definitely agree, even if the shipping contract allows of a certain amount of goods to be moved for a low cost or even for what is noted as free, the business is still paying for the over all shipping contract.  There definitely is no such thing, as a Free Lunch.  Lots of hidden costs in all kinds business, especially in the shipping business.

JD-Train,

   That business probably has a shipping contract and pays a certain flat rate cost yearly for their shipping, no matter what they ship, and then advertises to customers, that they get free shipping, the shipping is definitely not free.

PCRR/Dave

jd-train posted:

...

I believe that when my employer ships via UPS, they are billed at somewhere around 1/3 of what the 'retail' UPS price would be.

...

This is quite common when the service costs are "value based" (i.e., think in terms of what the market is willing to bear) vs. a price reflecting actual expenses incurred by the provider.  In the former pricing model, there's more headroom to move on price -- especially for a customer who wants to negotiate since he's using the shipper's services regularly and in high volume.  When you and I walk up to the UPS, Fed-Ex or USPS counter, they view us as a once and done transaction.  No leverage to get a better price. 

David

I help run a train show locally (non-profit on our part).  I rarely buy anything to resell these days, so I'm basically thinning the herd.  I don't mind if someone makes a reasonable offer on my items, but asking for 40 or more percent off is pretty rude.  I don't bother countering - I don't sell junk, and I'm not running a yard sale.

For the other two gentlemen and me running the show it's a social event - I don't mind loading tubs back up as long as I have a good time and other vendors enjoy themselves.  I'm not making a living selling toys, so my perspective is different than a number of folks who set up.  I don't have to worry about driving 3 hours, pay for a hotel and meals, and need to cover those costs as well as making enough to pay for the trains being resold (and make a profit as well).  Different people have different reasons for selling - motivations vary, needs are different - that may be why some sellers never seem to move items - the need/motivation to sell are unique.

MTN posted:

I help run a train show locally (non-profit on our part).  I rarely buy anything to resell these days, so I'm basically thinning the herd.  I don't mind if someone makes a reasonable offer on my items, but asking for 40 or more percent off is pretty rude.  I don't bother countering - I don't sell junk, and I'm not running a yard sale.

For the other two gentlemen and me running the show it's a social event - I don't mind loading tubs back up as long as I have a good time and other vendors enjoy themselves.  I'm not making a living selling toys, so my perspective is different than a number of folks who set up.  I don't have to worry about driving 3 hours, pay for a hotel and meals, and need to cover those costs as well as making enough to pay for the trains being resold (and make a profit as well).  Different people have different reasons for selling - motivations vary, needs are different - that may be why some sellers never seem to move items - the need/motivation to sell are unique.

Yes indeed! I have some other hobbies that run shows and meets and fests and, in all honesty, at least half the "Sellers" use the event as an excuse to, uh, "swap tales," to be polite about it. Nothing wrong with that. That is why they are called "meets."  

Only thing that bothers me is when I actually want to buy something,  I often feel guilty interrupting the seller's speech about his gall bladder operation or his hip replacement. Of course, half the time the seller's buddies are jabbering away directly in front of his table, so potential buyers can't see anything anyway! 

On the rare events when I do sell my goal is to take NOTHING back home; if my stuff was really valuable somebody would have bought it long ago. I take what I know will sell and plan on accepting lowballs on the rest!

Dave,  I would totally agree that nothing is shipped for free.   Personally, as a consumer, I always fold that cost of shipping into the sales price as both combined is what it cost to get the item into my hands.  But, a large volume company, usually as part of a contract, gets a tremendous discount for shipping.

Jim

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Many of the post-war dealers simply haven't changed with the times.  They're stuck in the mindset that folks think there's VALUE in a rare postwar Jersey Central FM with a maroon vs. gray roof.  Variations like that are part of the "collector's mentality" that has fallen off dramatically as many enthusiasts have evolved into operators who don't give a hoot about variations -- at least not in a sense that they're willing to pay a premium for them.

As for the post-war trains in average to poor condition... I'm not sure there was ever a sizable market for those.

David

A Jersey Central FM with a maroon or gray roof...now that would be a rare item!

Bob

CNJ 3676 posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Many of the post-war dealers simply haven't changed with the times.  They're stuck in the mindset that folks think there's VALUE in a rare postwar Jersey Central FM with a maroon vs. gray roof.  Variations like that are part of the "collector's mentality" that has fallen off dramatically as many enthusiasts have evolved into operators who don't give a hoot about variations -- at least not in a sense that they're willing to pay a premium for them.

As for the post-war trains in average to poor condition... I'm not sure there was ever a sizable market for those.

David

A Jersey Central FM with a maroon or gray roof...now that would be a rare item!

Bob

nice catch!

bostonpete posted:

CNJ 3676 posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Many of the post-war dealers simply haven't changed with the times.  They're stuck in the mindset that folks think there's VALUE in a rare postwar Jersey Central FM with a maroon vs. gray roof.  Variations like that are part of the "collector's mentality" that has fallen off dramatically as many enthusiasts have evolved into operators who don't give a hoot about variations -- at least not in a sense that they're willing to pay a premium for them.

As for the post-war trains in average to poor condition... I'm not sure there was ever a sizable market for those.

David

A Jersey Central FM with a maroon or gray roof...now that would be a rare item!

Bob

nice catch!

 

Ooops.... my head was thinking Lackawanna, but my fingers typed Jersey Central.    But you knew that, right???   

bmoran4 posted:

LionelTin posted:

no one wants to pay what an item is worth. They want it for pennies on the dollar not matter how nice it is.

 

Publilius Syrus wrote: "Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it".

Absolutely correct....But some guys don't get that.

Personally, I am willing to pay what I think something is worth. If something is priced out of my range, then I pass it by. If it is close, I make an offer. If someone gets p.o.'d at me because they feel insulted, then so be it. Chances are you will never sell me something with that attitude.

In January, I was looking at a set of NKP Locomotives at a major train swap meet here in the area. I passed on them at the time. I chatted with the individual about them and decided to give it some thought. The following month, I went back to the same swap meet. The Locomotives were still on this Gentleman's table. I didn't want to insult him. However, I had decided to budget for them in our finances for the month. So, I offered him what I felt I could afford. He accepted my offer if I paid cash. I also took into consideration, the real possibility, that they may not have run correctly when I got them home.

End of story, I paid what I felt was a fair price for a nice Legacy Equipped Locomotive and Dummy unit. They ran beautifully when I got them home.

Woe, be unto those who overvalue the prices of their merchandise at these swap meets. They have the same stuff sitting there month after month. They sit there look mean as heck and don't talk with people. I always wonder, where is the fun in that. I was a collector at one time. From 1976 to about 1992. I sold off my collection before prices tanked completely. Since then, I have come back into the hobby as an operator and not a Collector.

No more, mint in he box, unrun shelf queens here. When I add something to my trains set-up. it is to run it and enjoy it.

GREENRAIL posted:

They sit there look mean as heck and don't talk with people. I always wonder, where is the fun in that.

What I hate the most are people at train shows who, when you offer a friendly, "Hello" or "How's it going?", just stare back and don't respond. There was a husband and wife team at York that had a flat car with a special load that I was interested in, but after hovering around their table and getting that sour reaction I just decided to move on. I have to be honest and say that some of the discussion here, accurate as it is, is giving me some of my first disillusionment with the model train hobby. I realized,  that of late, I have almost a dozen or more pieces of rolling stock (not many compared to some of you) that may never see action on my layout. I guess I just need to be thankful for what I have and figure out to what to do with my excess in rolling stock, buildings, accessories, etc. I will keep SOME of it in storage. What I'd really like to do is sell most of it (difficult and a financial loss as that might be) and get, maybe, a Proto 3 steam engine with great effects. I am rethinking all of this. One thing is sure, I will stay in the hobby and enjoy it. My strategy has to change though. On the bright side, I just had my EM-1 drive shaft drilled and pinned and it is running great. I love the big sound and watching this behemoth circle my layout. it is GREAT... Again, thanks all for your responses which have turned this thread into a very interesting and informative discussion.

Michael Hokkanen posted:

GREENRAIL posted:

They sit there look mean as heck and don't talk with people. I always wonder, where is the fun in that.

What I hate the most are people at train shows who, when you offer a friendly, "Hello" or "How's it going?", just stare back and don't respond. There was a husband and wife team at York that had a flat car with a special load that I was interested in, but after hovering around their table and getting that sour reaction I just decided to move on. I have to be honest and say that some of the discussion here, accurate as it is, is giving me some of my first disillusionment with the model train hobby. I realized,  that of late, I have almost a dozen or more pieces of rolling stock (not many compared to some of you) that may never see action on my layout. I guess I just need to be thankful for what I have and figure out to what to do with my excess in rolling stock, buildings, accessories, etc. I will keep SOME of it in storage. What I'd really like to do is sell most of it (difficult and a financial loss as that might be) and get, maybe, a Proto 3 steam engine with great effects. I am rethinking all of this. One thing is sure, I will stay in the hobby and enjoy it. My strategy has to change though. On the bright side, I just had my EM-1 drive shaft drilled and pinned and it is running great. I love the big sound and watching this behemoth circle my layout. it is GREAT... Again, thanks all for your responses which have turned this thread into a very interesting and informative discussion.

Michael

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of great folks out there at the Swap Meets and in the Hobby. It's a reflection of life and society. I have a lot of fellow Model Railroaders ( not all O Gaugers), and they are some pretty good friends and folks in General.

I would encourage you to not become disillusioned. Look for the good side and the Good People! We are out here.

Enjoy the Trains and he Hobby. I know I do!

John G

I myself have had done pretty good as I buyer in the used train market.  I bought on the Bay a used MTH Railking Y6B with PS 2 for $371 in 2008 and it still runs fabulously!  I've also bought an MTH docksider on the Bay - no problem and it still runs great!  I think when buying on the Bay its wise to always check out the seller's ratings.  I will not buy from anyone with less than a 99.8% rating. Its important to ask the seller questions as well. 

I know there are those of us who have had terrible experiences with purchasing off the Bay, however, that has never been my experience. I've been buying  on the bay for almost 10 years now too.  AND there are times when I have had to send items back .... a particular passenger coach was listed as o scale ... I asked the seller if this car was definitely scale ... she replied with "definitely yes" ... I received the car and it was not scale .... I contacted the seller and she paid for this shipping back and refunded my money in full.  Hopefully she learned a lesson. 

At shows I purchase used rolling stock and never have had a problem.  Most of my rolling stock is used ... I could not afford all of what I have at brand new prices even discounted brand new prices.  Often at shows I've picked up brand new cars from vendors offering estate sales.  I've bought boxcars, passenger cars, new and never been out of the box, for great prices.  

I just purchased at the Timonium show in Maryland, a Lionel ballast tamper and a K line Plymouth industrial switcher .... both run great!  Of course I put them on the test track at the show before handing over the cash to the seller.  That same seller had an MTH AS 16 switcher with proto 2 and low run time and for a great price.  I was set to buy it and low and behold when put on the test track the switcher fired up but would not move in either direction.  Of course the seller was embarrassed and blamed it on the Lionel 90 watt transformer and of course I did not purchase the engine.  AND in all due fairness perhaps the guy had a point about the transformer for I had a strong sense that he was an honest guy.  

Bottom line when at shows - ALWAYS test anything you purchase used such as locomotives, motorized units, operating cars, and accessories ... BEFORE you buy.

You can get some great deals on used ( preowned ) trains.  You just need to be careful.  

I do not purchase postwar trains any longer.  Got enough of those still in my collection from childhood.... and they all run great too!

When I had to take down my layout to permit water pipe work over head and electrical upgrade, I did sell 11 command engines (some sets) at 50% of what I had paid for them (full retail) within a couple of days (post on buy and sell forum was only up for a couple of hours.) The market was weak for the diesels (1 sold) but 3 of my four electrics sold and the remainder were my large steamers. 

What's the point of train shows if there is no haggling? If I want to pay a high price I'll buy from a dealer. If your a collector, than I can see pay for something that you really want, but for people like me. I don't have the financial resources to pay what some guys want, but at the same time I wouldn't haggle on a one on one sale I just won't buy it. People are always going to look for the best deal in anything they want to buy. It's all about what it's worth to you.

DennyM posted:

... I wouldn't haggle on a one on one sale ... 

Don't understand that attitude.  Why wouldn't somebody want to negotiate a better price?  That may be more a rhetorical question, because I know, for example, some automobile dealers offer customers no-haggle pricing (which I interpret as a guise to maximize dealer profit at the expense of people who don't want to negotiate terms, for whatever reason).  I see others who receive their property tax bills and write a check when all they have to do is register a protest to trim the bottom line a bit.  I won't not haggle, I want to make a deal.  Doesn't hurt to ask if you do so in a respectful, personable manner and don't take rejection of an offer personally.

What, me worry?    

The price of any item will be determined by what any given individual is willing to pay for it. I am not afraid to haggle. I do so in a respective way. If someone gets upset then I will walk away. Plain and simple.

I don't begrudge anyone for wanting to get top dollar for any given item. I do however, think some folks have inflated senses of values many times. Bottom line for me is patience. If I am unable to meet my price point, at some point in time, I know I will.

Case in point was my long time (over a year) search for a K-Line Berkshire. When I started searching for one, they were pretty high. Over $600. I waited quite a while, and eventually found one in an online auction, that I was able to buy for around $325. Which to me was right where I felt it should be. It was worth the wait.

I always haggle on used train at train shows.  I can only think of twice where I paid the asking price ... and these were rare pieces and I felt ok about paying the sellers asking price ( after I gave a good go at haggling ).  Over the last 13 years I have never paid asking price - I always worked out a deal with the seller.  When we haggle and feel we got a deal it gives us a good feeling   Sellers expect haggling.

When i sell train at shows, I figure haggling is just part of the experience.  I'm happy to get rid of something thats been sitting in my train room collecting dust and the buyer is happy he/she got a deal.  Its a win win!!

My take on the used market is: (1) that it is weak due to the shift away from collecting and towards operating; and (2) there is often a disconnect between what sellers ask and reality of what people will pay. I have no dog on that fight other than to observe that at meets such as York, it has the effect of reducing my expectations as to what I may find in the member halls as much of it will be the same meet to meet.

decoynh posted:

I've been going to train shows since the early 90's to search for used trains & parts.  I enjoy the wheeling & dealing, BUT rarely will offer less than 25% of a dealers asking price.  Most often, only 10%.  But I also know a lot of the dealers by sight and have friends who stand behind their stuff, even offering to send an engine out to Lionel for repairs.  If it's priced fairly it sells.  Being new to buying here on the forum, the biggest killer that I see are the shipping charges.  Even if a seller was willing to take something back, you're are still out $$$.  I recently made a small purchase on the Forum and shipping was 25% of the items value.  

I won't buy on the forum - unless it's to bundle several items - this is exactly why.  Spending $15-20 per item to ship is outrageous - but that's exactly what it costs.  I try not to buy unless there are 3-4 items at once from the same seller - bundling saves on the shipping costs.  When I sell onl online, I always offer bundling as an option - or offer items in a bundle.

 Over the last 13 years I have never paid asking price - I always worked out a deal with the seller.  When we haggle and feel we got a deal it gives us a good feeling   Sellers expect haggling.

Patrick W.'s comment rings true for me.

For a while I was putting my stuff out at my rock bottom prices in the hope of just moving the stuff out. No matter how good the price was, a significant number of people wouldn't buy. They wanted me to knock something off the price.

So I raised my prices to give myself a little room to haggle. Some folks just paid the higher prices, putting a little more in my pocket. Other folks haggled, and probably got the trains at the prices that they would have seen if I didn't put it a "haggle cushion".

Personally, if I see something I want, and the price is good, I buy it. I don't see the need to beat people up on their prices.

Ray Lombardo posted:

My take on the used market is: (1) that it is weak due to the shift away from collecting and towards operating; and (2) there is often a disconnect between what sellers ask and reality of what people will pay. 

Yep. Exactly. I would add  (3). Depreciation.  Items have a limited shelf life before they begin to depreciate - that's why good-dealers have clearance / close-outs.  When you buy an item from a dealer, thats base. The purchase immediatly devalues the item 10-50% depending on the market. Every day after, it depreciates.  Just because you have an item that is as-sold in-box does not mean it's worth what it was the day it was delivered to a dealer.  

Alfred E Neuman posted:

DennyM posted:

... I wouldn't haggle on a one on one sale ... 

Don't understand that attitude.  Why wouldn't somebody want to negotiate a better price?  That may be more a rhetorical question, because I know, for example, some automobile dealers offer customers no-haggle pricing (which I interpret as a guise to maximize dealer profit at the expense of people who don't want to negotiate terms, for whatever reason).  I see others who receive their property tax bills and write a check when all they have to do is register a protest to trim the bottom line a bit.  I won't not haggle, I want to make a deal.  Doesn't hurt to ask if you do so in a respectful, personable manner and don't take rejection of an offer personally.

 

What, me worry?    

I agree Alfred, I was responding to some of the post that were negative about haggling. I noticed that attitude at York and those people were taking home almost as much as they brought there because they wouldn't deal. 

Jacobpaul81 posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

My take on the used market is: (1) that it is weak due to the shift away from collecting and towards operating; and (2) there is often a disconnect between what sellers ask and reality of what people will pay. 

Yep. Exactly. I would add  (3). Depreciation.  Items have a limited shelf life before they begin to depreciate - that's why good-dealers have clearance / close-outs.  When you buy an item from a dealer, thats base. The purchase immediatly devalues the item 10-50% depending on the market. Every day after, it depreciates.  Just because you have an item that is as-sold in-box does not mean it's worth what it was the day it was delivered to a dealer.  

What you're saying is largely true... except for the unpredictable (and hard to explain) draw to certain items like die-cast ES44's, Milwaukee Road S-3's, and black VisionLine Hudsons.  Folks are still willing to pay WELL above MSRP for those jewels.  And not for collectible reasons either.  Folks wanna run them.

David

Our take on the used market is that we have observed many of our buildings going for 50% to double what we originally sold them for on "the bay." We think our customers are doing very well.

For example, the Camaraderie Bar & Grill, which is no longer in production and completely sold out, ranges from $125-$159 in the used market. I'd say these buildings have pretty good collectability!

-Mark the Menards Train Guy

Many collectable hobby's or markets has been effected by the internet sites such as CL and ebay. Prior to the internet, if you wanted something that was rare and hard to find, a person had to go to the meets or know some one who knows some one that has what they were looking for and pay their price. Since the internet, all the rare and hard to find pieces all of a sudden became plentiful. The supply and demand was reversed.

As for me, I do most of my buying on ebay. I treat ebay sellers like I'm dealing with some one at a meet. If it doesn't sell or even if they have a buy it now price, I'll contact them on the side and politely ask if they'll take a certain amount w/ shipping included. Suprisingly, many of the sellers except. They know if I don't buy it off them, I'll buy it off some one else.

One time at a train show, I picked up a postwar Lionel 6464-25 GN boxcar for the marked price of $5. It was moderately used, missing one door guide, otherwise presentable. I had a friend with repair parts and it would be an easy fix. A short time later at another table I see the same boxcar, average condition, and the vendor gives me a spiel, "that's half price, only $40" ... made me smile !

Far and few between if you ever get at least what you paid, even if the item is still NIB.

PAUL ROMANO posted:

Far and few between if you ever get at least what you paid, even if the item is still NIB.

Check out "sold" auctions for the Lionel vision 3-pack of tankers with sounds.   $995 on the buy it now!

PAUL ROMANO posted:

Far and few between if you ever get at least what you paid, even if the item is still NIB.

I've only had a problem w/ about four purchases. I contacted the sellers and explained what was wrong, each case the seller made good w/ either a full refund w/return shipping or reduced sale price giving a partial refund.

Here's some example of a few of what I've purchased in the last yr and a half.  I purchased three nib northerns, 18001 RI, 18003 Lackawanna, 18007 SP prices approx. $200-$225 shipped each. Both CN budd sets 18506 & 18512, all four budd cars, LN, lightly used w/ boxes and papers for $260. shipped. These are just a few to mention that I've purchased.

I, myself, am guilty of over haggling. I was at the York train show looking at flatcars with military loads. One gentleman had a fat car with a helicopter on it. He only wanted $15. I said I would give him 13. He looked at  me and said, "I'm not making any money on this thing anyway. Why do you do that?" Part of the game I guess – but maybe too far?? Well, I ended up paying the $15 and I feel like I still got a bargain.

If he bought it for more than $13, that's his problem.  ALL OF US have sold stuff at a loss at some point.   

This is one of many examples on this thread of why I realize attending train shows, in terms of looking to buy, is a waste of time.  The sellers are not businessmen, just unreasonable old men with a jaded view of the world.

GREENRAIL posted:

The price of any item will be determined by what any given individual is willing to pay for it. I am not afraid to haggle. I do so in a respective way. If someone gets upset then I will walk away. Plain and simple.

We encounter those who have a very optimistic sense of worth at York but if you really want to know what the price is "on the street" look on eBay and at the few large local shows that remain.  The prices of used trains are VERY soft. Those items that do sell, are sold at bargain basement prices. Every day more and more train collections are hitting the market. The supply FAR outnumbers the demand.I buy only at the cheapest possible prices, never fail to find what I am looking for and it keeps getting better by the day. The days of high value toy trains are over.

I love the used market. The discounts on new old stock and like new stuff just keep getting better.I bought a legacy equiped jlc big boy 850 new. Vision line bigboy best price bto 1800. 9 years from now will you be able to get a vision line bigboy new for 900?  I would bet yes. John

If it weren't for used trains, I'd have no trains at all. Like others have said you can get what you want at the price you want if you are patient 

Menards posted:

Our take on the used market is that we have observed many of our buildings going for 50% to double what we originally sold them for on "the bay." We think our customers are doing very well.

For example, the Camaraderie Bar & Grill, which is no longer in production and completely sold out, ranges from $125-$159 in the used market. I'd say these buildings have pretty good collectability!

-Mark the Menards Train Guy

From the Eagles 1976 album, "Hotel California," there's a "New Kid In Town," definitely applies to music, love, and especially trains.

enjoy your trains...

I noticed someone mentioning that they are afraid to buy on ebay.

Don't be afraid to buy items on ebay as ebay is very strict on maintaining a happy buyer.  About a year ago, I started buying trains on ebay and have probably bought about 20 items. 

Two items I had trouble with.  The seller never sent the item so ebay refunded my money.   The other item was a PFM sound system that said 'as is'.  Bids were low so I got it for a good price and figured it was working as I have bought about 5 already for my layout.  It didn't work but figured that was my lost but I thought I'd put in an evaluation on the seller in that even though it said 'as is' he should have checked it out.  Ebay saw my evaluation and told me; unless it says for 'parts only', it better work.  Ebay gave me about a week to resolve it with the seller.  The seller wanted me to send it out and have it repaired at my expense.   In the end, ebay refunded my money, plus they paid for the return shipping.  

Some sellers put in 'no refunds, no returns' but ebay guarantees everything you buy.

For me ebay is top notch in protecting the buyer. 

I find auction houses are also great.  Initially, I thought, since the buyer pays 19-22% on the item, the items are going to be very costly.  I adjust for the 20% markup and make my bid, accordingly.  Also, since so many items are sold in just a day, a lot of stuff goes at a very good price.  I put my bids in before the auction starts as, since each item sells in 45 seconds or less, unless you are at the auction, there's no way to bid quickly, online.

Two that I like are Stout's and Morphy.  They have just 'train' auctions.

My view is, I put in a bid on what I think it is worth, if I get it, great, if not, there's more out there that will be for sale.

I'm in multiple hobbies and I was cleaning up my 'hobby shop' and found a lot of stuff that I'll never use and have had for 10 years.  Most of it I mark at 25-50% of what I bought it for or present going price.  In the last month, out of about 40 items, all but 6 so far, have sold in a few days.  I view this as a hobby, not a business.  I got my 'fun' out of it.  If I really don't want it anymore, I put a price on it so it sells quickly.  When I buy something, it's because I want it, not 'can I make a buck on it in the future',  it's easier to sell things later.    Remember, we really don't own anything, we're just caretakers of them, as, sooner or later, you will be gone!

PAUL ROMANO posted:

Far and few between if you ever get at least what you paid, even if the item is still NIB.

I disagree with this statement on higher end items look at what David said about Lionel items selling well above what they were originally purchased for. It depends on what you are talking about not everything falls into this statement. I have not lost anything on the Lionel Vision line or Scale locomotives I bought in the last six or seven years. Look at what the higher end things sell for on auction. Maybe you are speaking of RK items or RTR items or just common things I can see that being true. I think it really depends on what you are selling. 

I agree with Sam on the Evilbay thing.  I've been buying and selling trains on Ebay for years.  Mostly large scale up till now.  The very few issues I have had, both as a seller were easily resolved to my and the buyers satisfaction.  While I am not thrilled about the fees Ebay charges for selling, it's still far better than the old days of placing ads in the newspaper.  

Dennis LaGrua posted:

...  Every day more and more train collections are hitting the market. The supply FAR outnumbers the demand.I buy only at the cheapest possible prices, never fail to find what I am looking for and it keeps getting better by the day. The days of high value toy trains are over.

Except of course for the new stuff Lionel pumps out year after year.   Which is precisely why I'm so puzzled that as many folks as we hear are tripping over themselves pre-ordering new stuff.    I was part of that crowd too up until recently, but this year I really cut back on pre-ordering considerably.  There's just too much of a premium to be paid when buying brand new product arriving off the boats nowadays.

Just last night I was back on Sidetrack Hobbies' website, and I'm forever amazed at the GREAT deals they continue to have on brand new trains that have sat in inventory for more than a year or two.  It's like going on a shopping spree.  Don't get me wrong... You can still spend lots of money, but your money stretches so much further there.  These are the kinds of deals folks thought would be history in the BTO era, but that hasn't been the case at all. 

Case in point:  Want a Lionel Heavy Mikado (BTO)?  Sidetrack has 'em for $806.  Those little gems retailed for $1299 MSRP (which we knew was a joke even on a good day), and some of the big dealers still have them for $940 (2014 models) and $1100 (2015 models).  So either way, $806 is a great deal.  Certainly not chump change for a locomotive, but it's the best price I've seen thus far.

There's a small contingent of folks here who get all up in arms when I come down on Lionel so harshly for their current pricing of new stuff.  But let's get something perfectly straight here.  Nobody -- and I mean nobody -- is criticizing enthusiasts for spending their money however they want.  What folks spend is their own personal business.  But I have absolutely no problem taking Lionel to task on their latest pricing, because the newly catalog'd stuff is so  over-priced compared to items that are -- in some cases -- not even two years old yet.  I think those Heavy Mikados that Sidetrack has for $806 were in one of the 2014 catalogs, but they arrived Stateside more recently than that.  

The next group of locomotives that we'll likely see some downward price movement on in coming months will be the ES44's (in ABS) currently above $550 and the non-articulated steamers currently above $1250 (like the ESE Hudsons) as they collect dust on dealer shelves.  Yet one dealer (a forum sponsor) is pushing his prices upward  toward MSRP on these locomotives , and he's also telling us that the newly catalog'd GS-4 Daylights ($1699 MSRP, $1400 street-price) were some of the more popular 2016 pre-orders.  Just crazy!    Nonetheless, I think I'll take my chances on what happens AFTER delivery of those GS-4's, since Lionel is making 4 of them.  I'll try not to be too picky in 9-12 months.    And if they sell out, I still have my Daylight Cab-Forward (that I paid much  less for just two Decembers ago) to head-up a nice string of Lionel 18" aluminum Daylight passenger cars.

I realize this thread is about the "used train market".  But I think a lot of what's been said here about haggling can be applied equally to "negotiating" the purchase of some of the newer items, since their prices are so volatile after products arrive Stateside. 

The line between "new" and "slightly used" is also becoming much harder to ignore.  For whatever reason, we're seeing stuff pop up on the secondary market fairly quickly these days with 15- to 30-minutes of run-time on a locomotive.  Last week we saw a Legacy Cab-Forward (black) sell on the forum for $950.    And I was doing everything I could to NOT buy it!    That's a GREAT price for an articulated locomotive, when we consider the latest round of pre-order pricing... which makes Lionel's new pricing even tougher to understand (and stomach).

David

i think that there is a lot of product on the market, especially as the older stuff becomes more difficult to work on. but I also think that there is wide fluctuation in the prices of the same item. i recently bought two identical trollies (Lionel 60) both worked, no box and had instructions. One was 70 and the other was 30-. However the price for good well cared and boxed stuff is pretty solid. However I've never been to a train show and I only buy three times a year.

The line between "new" and "slightly used" is also becoming much harder to ignore.  For whatever reason, we're seeing stuff pop up on the secondary market fairly quickly these days with 15- to 30-minutes of run-time on a locomotive.  Last week we saw a Legacy Cab-Forward (black) sell on the forum for $950.    And I was doing everything I could to NOT buy it!    That's a GREAT price for an articulated locomotive, when we consider the latest round of pre-order pricing... which makes the new pricing even tougher to understand (and stomach).

Are you forgetting that the slightly used stuff has no warrantee?

C W Burfle posted:

...

Are you forgetting that the slightly used stuff has no warrantee?

No.  Did you see who the seller was?  I would buy from him without thinking twice about it.

There are still some good deals at the train meets, you hafta really scan the tables and not just be looking for a specific item. Back in Jan the first time in about 15 yrs I went to a train meet. I bought these lightly used excl condition Lionel Madison cars 19011, 15, 16, 17, & 18 for $225.

Trussman posted:

... I bought these lightly used excl condition Lionel Madison cars 19011, 15, 16, 17, & 18 for $225.

Those are really nice 15" Madison cars -- reminiscent of the cars that ran on the "subway lines" of Lionel's legendary 1949 Showroom Layout behind GG-1's (traditional size -- not the larger scale-size).  When Lionel re-issued the Lionel Lines Madison cars in the 1990's, the add-on baggage car was new to the re-issue and was reportedly not produced in the same quantities as the other 4 cars.  So it's great that you acquired a 5-car set in one shot.

Those Madision cars, along with the semi-scale phenolic body freight cars, and the Lackawanna 4-car MU set -- all circa 1990-ish -- are some of the last remaining Lionel cars from that era still on my roster.  They are sentimental favorites.

David

It is not the "take";   it is to "not get taken"....

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Trussman posted:

... I bought these lightly used excl condition Lionel Madison cars 19011, 15, 16, 17, & 18 for $225.

Those are really nice 15" Madison cars -- reminiscent of the cars that ran on the "subway lines" of Lionel's legendary 1949 Showroom Layout behind GG-1's (traditional size -- not the larger scale-size).  When Lionel re-issued the Lionel Lines Madison cars in the 1990's, the add-on baggage car was new to the re-issue and was reportedly not produced in the same quantities as the other 4 cars.  So it's great that you acquired a 5-car set in one shot.

Those Madision cars, along with the semi-scale phenolic body freight cars, and the Lackawanna 4-car MU set -- all circa 1990-ish -- are some of the last remaining Lionel cars from that era still on my roster.  They are sentimental favorites.

David

Thanks Dave,

I also have the SP Madison cars 19019, 23, 24, 25 & 26, I have 2 of 19019 baggage cars.

I remember when the 19011 baggage car came out. I don't know if it's true, but I heard that there were a lot of the 19011 baggage cars sent back because the phenolic bodies cracked. If that's true, then that could be the reason there's not as many.  

Menards posted:

Our take on the used market is that we have observed many of our buildings going for 50% to double what we originally sold them for on "the bay." We think our customers are doing very well.

For example, the Camaraderie Bar & Grill, which is no longer in production and completely sold out, ranges from $125-$159 in the used market. I'd say these buildings have pretty good collectability!

-Mark the Menards Train Guy

Hard to believe but I have no reason to doubt you. Every other building, even the most detailed, that I have is worth, at best 40% or so of its the value. What makes these so special? Not being sarcastic, just asking. 

David

The Lionel thinking back around the 90s I believe was that not everyone who bought the initial set would be a customer for add ons . In the case of the Madison cars the add on was the Madison baggage car and we know that Lionel misjudged the demand for this one. The same was true with the add on B unit for the Santa Fe F-3 ABA Streamliner set from about the same time period. Lionel took up the idea of the add on to sets to spur collector interest in its products as a big part of its market appeal were toy train collectors .

The Phenolic cars are quite interesting . They are scale dimensioned and  were made pretty much as they might have been in the 1940s .What makes them "semi-scale" so to speak is that they were equipped with the deep flange trucks and lionel "claw" couplers rather than scale wheels and couplers. That was how Lionel denoted the difference back in 1941 for the product produced at that time.The 1991 catalog that showed those Madisons and the phenolic cars picturing them with the 1-700E Hudson and the Scale B-6 switcher. These were the most advanced lionel sets in the 1941 catalog from 50 years earlier. The Madison cars from 1991 are very similar in color to the prewar cars , more brown than the maroon or tuscan cars released in the postwar years. The stock car and Refrigerator car produced shortly after the release of the phenolics in 1991 have always interested me as I wondered if they were made from tooling that may have existed back in 1941. The war would have precluded their release and in the immediate postwar period, these sets were maybe contemplated by Lionel but never made. 

Still plenty of postwar and pre war trains... To look for old timers are passing ... So collections come more available ...  Supply and demand.... I will always love postwar and pre war trains...!  They still run! And are made in America not China! No thank you...

I think it is difficult to justify buying an engine that is 6 years old for just $100 off the MSRP. I would prefer to get an engine that is new with the three year warranty for a little bit more. Just my two cents.

Rails posted:

Still plenty of postwar and pre war trains... To look for old timers are passing ... So collections come more available ...  Supply and demand.... I will always love postwar and pre war trains...!  They still run! And are made in America not China! No thank you...

Rails, your reply was one week short of a full year since the previous reply.

How is it that you found this thread after all this time? 

High end items of any kind usually hold their value.  Brass cars hold the interest of modelers drawn to them, very few brass items are being made today and more modelers have more disposable income and can fill their desire to have first class items on their layout.  People who are upgrading their rolling stock are drawn towards brass cars.  On the other hand, people entering the hobby seldom care for Pecos River, Intermountain and Weaver kits.  John

I take time to look at E-Bay but mainly but at Local TCA shows here in NC.  I do not want to take the chance on something (especially and Engine)  and have it end up as a shelf queen.  I have run into some very fair deals at the local train shows.  

booker110 posted:

I think it is difficult to justify buying an engine that is 6 years old for just $100 off the MSRP. I would prefer to get an engine that is new with the three year warranty for a little bit more. Just my two cents.

The three years we seen thrown about is not 3 years of warranty from when you purchase it, it is a three year timer from the production/manufacturing/delivery date to the stores.  During that 3 year window, the manufacturer/importer is willing to extend the traditional warranty, generally one year to original purchaser.  After that 3 year window, the manufacturer/importer is basically stating you are on your own.

Determining that starting date for the "window" is a whole other quandary, since they don't stamp it on the box anywhere like a loaf of bread.

With a few exceptions, most modern trains come with a one year warranty to the original purchaser from the date you buy it from an authorized dealer. 

-Dave

Five years ago I bought a mint $60 box car at the "bottom dropped out of the market price" of $20. I recently decided to sell it - still in mint condition but listed it as used because the box had shelf wear. After 3 attempts on eBay I managed to get one bid and sold it for $8. This and other similar experiences made me think the used market is weak except for top quality in the box postwar. I have decided to sell only junk - broken things and clean out the bottom of the closet. Of course now I am adding to the weakness of the market.....

I pretty much only sell here on OGR.  I've found that if it's fairly priced , it sells quickly.  Sometimes I put the "I don't really want to sell it price" on something.  If it sells I'm happy & if it doesn't, I'm happy to keep it.  I've also bought some really nice things here on OGR at what I consider very fair prices.  

What really bothers me is something that I saw at the December Greenberg show in Wilmington MA.  There were people selling Menards' cars for $40 to $50 each car.  Now I just shook my head and walked away, but there were people unfamiliar with the product, buying it at those prices for their kids.  They were comparing it to Lionel & MTH cars at the same booth.  Lionel is competing now with the new "no box" 027 cars.

Do many of you also notice the same dealers with the same inventory of post war trains, selling at the same prices, at the same shows year after year? Those are dealers that are still stuck in high demand years of the 1970's. The trains that they are selling are mostly shelf queens as many are not good runners. The P/W wheels on axle cars restrict one to running a short consist. Some of the early F3's with the growler motors emit a noise that is annoying. The vibrotor powered accessories are temperamental and all of the engines ( even those that run well)  have motors that consume gobs of power but will last nearly forever. I would venture to say that the majority of collectors at this point have all of the post war trains that they wanted and more than they could ever use in four lifetimes. Its a buyers market and prices will continue to decline. Not only has new technology taken over, the demographic of those that buy the trains is changing rapidly.

Pingman posted:

Rails posted:

Still plenty of postwar and pre war trains... To look for old timers are passing ... So collections come more available ...  Supply and demand.... I will always love postwar and pre war trains...!  They still run! And are made in America not China! No thank you...

Rails, your reply was one week short of a full year since the previous reply.

How is it that you found this thread after all this time? 

It's OK. I am glad to see my old thread revived.

Since the OP I have still lots of trains and accessories to give away, er - I mean sell. I have even gone to bundling to attract buyers. There is such a HUGE market out there and a shrinking pool of buyers. The 100's and 100's of member tables at York give evidence of that.

bigo426 posted:

Five years ago I bought a mint $60 box car at the "bottom dropped out of the market price" of $20. I recently decided to sell it - still in mint condition but listed it as used because the box had shelf wear. After 3 attempts on eBay I managed to get one bid and sold it for $8. This and other similar experiences made me think the used market is weak except for top quality in the box postwar. I have decided to sell only junk - broken things and clean out the bottom of the closet. Of course now I am adding to the weakness of the market.....

That and you get pennies on the dollar. But that is just the way it is. It really makes you think more carefully when you buy new high-end stuff too!

What I see is such a hit and miss market.  Online some items are going for ridiculously cheaper prices while items that shouldn't be that expensive are going for at or more than list.  I see this with a lot of products I do a regular search on to pulse the market and find those key items I'm missing from a few trains I've been building up over the years.  Even within the same line of products I see huge price swings which I attribute to sellers who don't know the value and only see the price on the box and thing it has to be worth more. 

Locally, at shows I see the same thing to a lesser extent.  I actually sell more used HO and make a profit at a train swap meet off the $5 sales over trying to get half of what I paid for some O items.  This is especially true with postwar and 027 cars.  Just not a lot of interest locally.  The market is flooded.

The true value of something is the price it has actually SOLD for on eBay. Do an advanced search for "sold" items. Drop out the "basket cases". Drop the highest price (probably a bidding war) and the lowest price (probably a under-priced "buy it now"), then "average" the rest. This also gives a idea of how rare an item is (1 or none sold in the past 3 months, or 8?). 

I have amassed 5 different "collections" over the years, and I have sold 3 of them, contemplating selling another.  I have never "made what I paid" when I sell, but I don't really care.  I consider the "loss" rent on the items, a fee for being able to play with them for a while.  This fee works out to being significantly cheaper than most other forms of entertainment.

For the few pieces I am in the market to acquire, I prefer to buy used, and I look for other reasonable folks who, like me, don't try to build a financial empire on the tender foundation of 3 rails.

I always buy new when it comes to Engines, warranty is important with all the electronics. Price is higher but the protection is also there.

Farmer_Bill posted:

If you're buying, prices are too high.

if you're selling, prices are too low.

That's about it in a nutshell.  My primary experience with "the used train market" is strictly as a buyer at train shows and flea markets, and I haven't seen prices changing much in either direction over the past five years or so.

Interesting thread to me. I got into O Gauge by inheriting my granfather's postwar collection of mainly O27 classics, accessories, and track. So I started adding O27 rated items like the NKP junior berk and SF FT passenger set.

Then I caught the TMCC bug from my brother-in-law but fought the urge to go scale.

By staying with traditonal, I've been able to accumulate a nice collection for $20-25 per piece, sometimes less. Gently used TMCC engines go for half their retail prices or less because of the rage with scale.

To fill out my collection, I've probably overpaid a bit on the last few items, but I wanted particular things.

Overall, except for the new LC+ items, the traditional size market seems very soft.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Jacobpaul81 posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

My take on the used market is: (1) that it is weak due to the shift away from collecting and towards operating; and (2) there is often a disconnect between what sellers ask and reality of what people will pay. 

Yep. Exactly. I would add  (3). Depreciation.  Items have a limited shelf life before they begin to depreciate - that's why good-dealers have clearance / close-outs.  When you buy an item from a dealer, thats base. The purchase immediatly devalues the item 10-50% depending on the market. Every day after, it depreciates.  Just because you have an item that is as-sold in-box does not mean it's worth what it was the day it was delivered to a dealer.  

What you're saying is largely true... except for the unpredictable (and hard to explain) draw to certain items like die-cast ES44's, Milwaukee Road S-3's, and black VisionLine Hudsons.  Folks are still willing to pay WELL above MSRP for those jewels.  And not for collectible reasons either.  Folks wanna run them.

David

David,

  I agree in regards to the selling price for die-cast ES44's and S3's on Ebay but if your willing to wait for the rite price those loco's can be bought at a reasonable price.  Just don't wait for those items to show up on Ebay at a fair price..!!!

As the old saying goes "Time is money".  If you want to play with it now, it's going to cost you but if your willing to wait, your more likely to get a deal.

ps, I still run those Pan Am box cars you sold me..!!!

My take on this is always wait untill after christmas.It has always has worked out for me.Large places that have a bunch of left over stock.They have to get rid of it to make room for new stock.I have gotten locomotive half off this way.I have been to train shows and gotten some good deals.The thing to keep in mind most of the venders.Do not want to drag this stuff back home with them.So some are willing to make a deal.It also depends on what your looking for.

The older stuff is just sit there on the various auction sights, the new stuff is moving off the shelf, this is what I am see on flea bay and other auction sites. There are exception to the rule Super O for the last few weeks moving like hot cakes. Personal I like the PW freight cars and I purchase them at what I believe is the right price, other will disagree but it is their right to do so. But I will not touch any of the older engines except for few exceptions. These are the rebuild specials I hoping to get so time soon, for the recorded I have about 4 or 5 of them. I just like the style of them and the newer ones are out of my budget for now. I think Warren Buffet said it the best “Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.”

This thread started roughly one year ago, and the question posed back then is more appropriate now than ever.  In the year that has elapsed, I think it's quite fair to say the market is more saturated now than ever. 

David

I've never been able to sell a used automobile for anywhere close to what I paid for it.  Same thing with appliances, furniture, clothes, lawn equipment, and on and on.   But, I did get to use those items and consume a portion of it's useful life.  If I had kept any of those items new in the box, I would still have lost money.  In the case of technology based items (computers, TVs, cell phones, game systems) I would have lost nearly all of my money even though they were still mint in the box.  Granted there are exceptions in any of those categories; jewelry, antiques  and housing are a few.   But still there are problems with parts availability and being able to find service centers for many of the hardline items.  In many cases they just become trash or donations to a charity.

The toy/model train market suffers from the same trends.  With advances in technology now, many people don't want anything that is not Legacy, PS3, whatever the latest is.  Many postwar items in rare condition trend into the antique/collectors market where their price is better preserved.  What used to be marketable average postwar and MPC/LTI now is available in abundance.  So like it or not, the supply and demand forces will determine the current price, regardless of what it used to sell for or what Gberg books say.

Good luck to anyone who wants to take the chance buying used.  That is OK at a train show where you can hold the engine and run it before laying your money down.  Every week I hear of someone who got screwed on fleabay.   I will not touch any of it.  

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Good luck to anyone who wants to take the chance buying used.  That is OK at a train show where you can hold the engine and run it before laying your money down.  Every week I hear of someone who got screwed on fleabay.   I will not touch any of it.  

In the Bay just be careful to check the sellers feedback and ask a lot of questions. Ask one where you would expect a negative answer to see how honest the seller is. You are right. You must be careful. 

ebay has allowed access to untappable markets--the owners attic. It was safer in the "old" days but still a great source of unusual and rare items as well as common. I have found that except in the case or extremely rare items, another one will come along. I also stopped using price guides 20 years ago, I got a little digusted with the whole collecting community when I started seeing "investment" grade trains. The trains are worth what they are worth to each individual. Enjoy them, they are a better value than 100-200$ a month for cable for sure.

For O-scale two-rail used equipment, at least, there are a couple of e-Bay sellers who have built excellent reputations over the years by offering only high-quality used models. I make my online purchases from them almost exclusively and have not been disappointed.

Lionel Prewar tin-Plate in the last year seem to be holding in price if not increase. In watching eBay "SOLD" items (not asking price) people are nuts on what they are paying.
Marx is another brand that seems to be selling at a higher price
There also seems to be a trend a sellers are chopping the prewar O and standard and selling them as parts to command a higher price and people are buying?
Do not look at the new Lionel stuff as I only run conventional.
Just have toi be careful and not get caught up in a auction as there is a ton of stuff out there.
Happy Hunting.

If you run "modern trains" built after 1994 when MTH began its own production there is an abundance of new "old" stock that is coming to the market from collectors who never quite got around to building their layout, others who have retired and moved south or west where basements are rare and those who have passed away leaving their spouse and kids to dispose of their trains as best they can. The result: There are bargains galore which compete with the new offerings from Lionel and MTH. A local hobby store has two cases of new trains and 4 cases of new "old" stock or like new trains. For the operator who can survive without whistle steam or smoke from the cylinders its a great time to be in the market.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Good luck to anyone who wants to take the chance buying used.  That is OK at a train show where you can hold the engine and run it before laying your money down.  Every week I hear of someone who got screwed on fleabay.   I will not touch any of it.  

I Personally have had as many problems with NEW, as I have had  with anything bought on eBay.

Unfortunately, the amount of running that I get to do is rather limited, so my locomotives have Very Little run time on them, and I have had both my JLC Big Boy, and my Black FEF-3 FAIL, with very few "Miles" on them, an unacceptablel low amount of use before failure, but naturally shortly AFTER, the warranty EXPIRED.

Even more than the Price, the unreliability of the newer electronics has made me quit buying new locomotives. I Have enough, that I have more than I can reasonably run, but there are models that I would like to have, but I am just NOT willing to Gamble on the newer electronics, and I am a REGULAR Lottery player��, and I still won't take THAT Gamble.

eBay has made many "Hard to Find" items, pretty Easy to find. Anyone who is afraid of eBay, is just missing out on a GREAT resource. eBay's buyers protection, makes it a pretty safe way to buy items that may otherwise be difficult to find.

 I Still PREFER to buy from my LTS, and will let Charley, at Whistlestop Trains know what I am looking for, but eBay is ONE of several sources I use, and do so without undue Worry.

 With over 500 purchases on eBay,(Mostly Trains) I have had VERY FEW problems, definitely not enough to keep me from buying there, and no more than any other source.

 I Am Fine with a lot of people being afraid of buying on eBay, it reduces the competing bids, and keeps my winning bids lower.

Doug

Ebay seems to have a lot of stuff but none of them appear to be bargains. About 3 years ago I was somewhat burned when I purchased 5 Santa Fe aluminum passenger cars (Williams) that were almost new. If I can remember rightly I paid a pretty high price ($175) or about $35 each. They had been in mint condition but the seller poorly packed them and when they came the couplers on some of the cars had come off. When I contacted the seller who had a good reputation his response was to use some kind of epoxy weld to fix them myself but he would not consider taking them back. It was buyer beware. I did make the repairs which were easy enough and the cars were quite nice but that is the last time I buy something from Ebay. I think experiences like this hurt the used train market.

John F posted:

Ebay seems to have a lot of stuff but none of them appear to be bargains. About 3 years ago I was somewhat burned when I purchased 5 Santa Fe aluminum passenger cars (Williams) that were almost new. If I can remember rightly I paid a pretty high price ($175) or about $35 each. They had been in mint condition but the seller poorly packed them and when they came the couplers on some of the cars had come off. When I contacted the seller who had a good reputation his response was to use some kind of epoxy weld to fix them myself but he would not consider taking them back. It was buyer beware. I did make the repairs which were easy enough and the cars were quite nice but that is the last time I buy something from Ebay. I think experiences like this hurt the used train market.

You should have opened a case with eBay.  He did not pack them well enough for them to survive shipping.

-Dave

Dave:

You're right but I wasted too much time in going back and forth with the seller and I think I missed some cut off date.

John F

You take what you get.

the secondary market is probably where i am going to stay for a while until i work up a budget for the new stuff but i have to see the product in person to trust the condition

turbgine posted:

If you run "modern trains" built after 1994 when MTH began its own production there is an abundance of new "old" stock that is coming to the market from collectors who never quite got around to building their layout, others who have retired and moved south or west where basements are rare and those who have passed away leaving their spouse and kids to dispose of their trains as best they can. The result: There are bargains galore which compete with the new offerings from Lionel and MTH. A local hobby store has two cases of new trains and 4 cases of new "old" stock or like new trains. For the operator who can survive without whistle steam or smoke from the cylinders its a great time to be in the market.

here lately i have been looking at mpc era and kughn era trains because they fit the  era i am trying to model the 1980s and 90s

Great Opinions, Great Observations, Great Predictions, The Pre War Era, TinPlate Era, Post War Era, Modern Era, and the Gently used train market is simply, in my opinion, the Culprit that GOT us all into this so called Predicament....Yes, this is where our Love of Toy Trains all Began...Yes,  as we get older, Our thoughts of those trains running under Christmas Trees is a Dream, as we saw the train pulling nice freight cars, passenger cars around and around, and to Us, looked Real....What a Dream Come True. Well, That Dream is over,But, NOW The Trains of today not only Look Realistic, Sound Realistic, and most of ALL, OPERATE REALISTIC with our favorite Command Systems.  Therefore, the older trains have gone south in value, the modern Trains with Command are more Desireable... therefore more valuable...Now to answer the QUESTION about Selling our Collection, or Individual pieces, The OGR Forum is the Best....I have seldom if ever got my money back selling my trains. I am in the Hobby for fun and if I capture 3/4 to 1/2 the money paid for a used, or just tested train, I am happy.  Also, I have traded with many folks on this Forum and it's simply lots of Fun... I do think the BTO (Built to Order) from our Manufacturers has hurt the flow of our $$$$. Good luck in Buying, and Better Luck in Selling. It's a Buyers Market...For the record, a collection generally brings 1/3 down to a 1/4 of what it's real worth is. The buyer of the collection has to sell it and it might take years to recapture his investment...WOW, That's simply the Facts....Now lets have fun.....

Older trains especially rare!! Are still in demand!... 

The train market is pretty simple. If your buying it's great. If your selling it sucks. I've learned to stay away from anything that is vintage, rare or used. Buy new or new old stock unless you know the person or business then used is OK.

Well my observation from the Allentown Spring Thaw meet is, there were a lot of guys like me (early 60's and up) on line, the prices were the lowest I have ever seen for post war and recent (10-15 year old items) and the one guy waving a sign that shouted 25% off everything on the table that was already priced at what I considered very low were all clear signs the market is extremely soft.  Unless the faces in the line start to get younger there is going to be a large glut of trains out there with fewer and fewer buyers.  I you were a buyer at Allentown this past weekend would have been the time to score big, if you were a seller, I hope you recovered your cost.